dachopper

Sydney to Hobart 2019

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12 minutes ago, paps49 said:

 

Thank you Jason for you're open input. I do have to say though this is all based on one post describing the hull as it was abandoned and is early days, unless I am missing something.  You are at least 3 arms lengths from the issue on first impression.
A boat was lost and a crew saved, that is what sometimes happens when we do what we do. Sometimes it's not that good a result.

If contradictory information comes to light, I can change my opinion, but based on current info we can be pretty certain of what happened,, . ending with the keel we didn't design in two pieces, one bolted sub flush to the hull, the other on the ocean floor.

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13 hours ago, Matagi said:

 

But this is the future. Like it or not. 

clubswan-36-1.jpg?itok=aHONslVy

 

 

 

Agreed that foiling is the future but not sure I'd make the same choice of vessel...

Seeing the heel angles the 36 seems to require for the foil to be effective I can't think of much worse to be on for a Hobart race (or any major offshore race for that matter).

I would think that maybe the DSS system like on the Inifiti 46 Maverick is more suited to offshore/coastal racing - she was 19th in line honours up with the TPs and took 13th in IRC... Perhaps not such a dramatic foiling system but it seems to be proving itself as a way to increase boatspeed and reduce crew numbers.

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16 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Jason revised keel parameters are noted up thread. By all means if our designers got it wrong and imposed greater loads on the hull structure I am interested to know. But otherwise until the hull washes up on a beach somewhere it's a pointless discussion. 

in the meantime I'm shopping for a new or newish offshore yacht in the 40 to 46 ft range. Got any recommendations? Now that's an idea for a new thread.

Concubine?

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6 hours ago, Recidivist said:

changed to inshore config for the remainder of the series (complete with different IRC Certificate)

Here in the UK you can't hold two IRC certs at once (unless it's a doublehanded one), is it different in Straya or does your rating office work over New Year?

6 hours ago, Recidivist said:

a change to the offshore main would have required a new certificate

Would it be legal to build two inshore mains measuring the same, one with reef points and one without? You couldn't carry both on board (and wouldn't want to), but you'd be faster in 46 knot conditions...

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3 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Here in the UK you can't hold two IRC certs at once (unless it's a doublehanded one), is it different in Straya or does your rating office work over New Year?

Would it be legal to build two inshore mains measuring the same, one with reef points and one without? You couldn't carry both on board (and wouldn't want to), but you'd be faster in 46 knot conditions...

I think this is a big issue with IRC, the fact that boats want to use different sails with different dimensions (and different numbers of sails) inshore and offshore, and that IRC has no easy way of switching.  

For the life of me I do not understand why IRC does not move to an inshore/offshore cert but only allowing changes to things such as dimensions and numbers of sails, and maybe a Symetric/A-sail swap. What would be the downside?

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2 minutes ago, Flaming said:

For the life of me I do not understand why IRC does not move to an inshore/offshore cert but only allowing changes to things such as dimensions and numbers of sails, and maybe a Symetric/A-sail swap. What would be the downside?

An even worse arms race than currently exists?

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2 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

An even worse arms race than currently exists?

Why?  Boats already have inshore and offshore inventories.  It's just a right pain to swap them over on your rating.  And if a predominately offshore boat is being put off from doing the odd inshore regatta because they are rated (for example) for 5 kites and a jib that they wouldn't use inshore so wouldn't be competitive without spending the time and money re-rating....  That's not good for the sport is it?

Whereas if they could just say "We're leaving 2 kites and this jib in the shed when we sail inshore" and getting a rating for that, how's that increasing the arms race?

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2 hours ago, NZK said:

 

Agreed that foiling is the future but not sure I'd make the same choice of vessel...

Seeing the heel angles the 36 seems to require for the foil to be effective I can't think of much worse to be on for a Hobart race (or any major offshore race for that matter).

I would think that maybe the DSS system like on the Inifiti 46 Maverick is more suited to offshore/coastal racing - she was 19th in line honours up with the TPs and took 13th in IRC... Perhaps not such a dramatic foiling system but it seems to be proving itself as a way to increase boatspeed and reduce crew numbers.

So I get the shit when I propose a Juan K boat to someone who has just had a 'ballast mishap', but you can propose a McConaghy model (the Ker 40 yard)? Naaaah. 

:) 

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2 hours ago, Flaming said:

For the life of me I do not understand why IRC does not move to an inshore/offshore cert but only allowing changes to things such as dimensions and numbers of sails, and maybe a Symetric/A-sail swap. What would be the downside?

This is a broader issue and it comes from trying use the same rule for 'grand prix' and club racing.

IRC is designed to protect the fleet of enthusiastic amateurs (like me) that have one main, three jibs and 3-4 spinnakers, where 'inshore configuration' means taking off the liferaft and trysail.

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14 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

locally -- I'd suggest it might be a good thing.  It may just get back to a more grassroots race where the focus is on the fleet, not the top 3

Absolutely.  As a local regatta, it may be more appealing to those competing, and their family/friends.  But for anyone else, this race has been looked at as one of the cutting edge races for ocean racing monohulls the world over.  That may, or is likely, to fade away.  Why would anyone outside of Australia give a damn?

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8 hours ago, paps49 said:

Thank you Jason for you're open input. I do have to say though this is all based on one post describing the hull as it was abandoned and is early days, unless I am missing something You are at least 3 arms lengths from the issue on first impression.

Paps lot more knowledge than one post and your 3 arms impression is wrong..it is around 1/3 of a finger. What you are missing is there is a community outside here on SA  :-)

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8 hours ago, Flaming said:

I think this is a big issue with IRC, the fact that boats want to use different sails with different dimensions (and different numbers of sails) inshore and offshore, and that IRC has no easy way of switching.  

For the life of me I do not understand why IRC does not move to an inshore/offshore cert but only allowing changes to things such as dimensions and numbers of sails, and maybe a Symetric/A-sail swap. What would be the downside?

If you read the notes from their latest update they're trying to grapple with how to deal with Code Zeros that have midgirths under 75%. Perhaps the best way to deal with it is to go to a 2 number system with Short Course and Long Course ratings.

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Paps lot more knowledge than one post and your 3 arms impression is wrong..it is around 1/3 of a finger. What you are missing is there is a community outside here on SA  :-)

Get out, really?

 

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14 hours ago, Flaming said:

Why?  Boats already have inshore and offshore inventories.  It's just a right pain to swap them over on your rating.  And if a predominately offshore boat is being put off from doing the odd inshore regatta because they are rated (for example) for 5 kites and a jib that they wouldn't use inshore so wouldn't be competitive without spending the time and money re-rating....  That's not good for the sport is it?

Whereas if they could just say "We're leaving 2 kites and this jib in the shed when we sail inshore" and getting a rating for that, how's that increasing the arms race?

Its not just the sail inventory the club races are up against in the arms race, most of the competitive extreme budget TP52's change over rigs, booms, removal steering wheels, bunks etc once an ocean race is over and they change over to inshore mode. At last years Adelaide to Port Lincoln race, most of the TP52's had their truck waiting at the finish line with a shore crew ready to change out the port booms, steering systems etc for the inshore racing series. I believe their IRC certificate is based on the inshore set up, ie the lightest boat configuration though but this would be based on the trust of the owner. Similar to the club racer removing the cushions and table for inshore racing and having the IRC certificate racing for this setup!

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22 hours ago, Recidivist said:

One that has sailed Race 1 of a series in offshore configuration, then changed to inshore config for the remainder of the series (complete with different IRC Certificate), courtesy of the brainstrust at Australian Sailing.

 

Does anyone know where the rules are that allow multiple certificates in Oz?  I'm not sure this actually occurred with the recent IRC champs in Tassie, eg: Ichi Bum had same 1.405 number they used offshore (with the caveat that Hobart IRC number is listed as 1.403 in the results, but 1.405 at ircrating.org ?).

 

IRC 2019 (and 2020) explicitly state one certificate only under rule 8.2.

8.2 Each boat racing under IRC shall hold a current valid IRC certificate. A boat shall not hold more than one valid IRC rating certificate at any time except as permitted by Rule 8.2.1.
8.2.1 A boat may additionally hold a separate short-handed certificate. This short-handed certificate shall be valid only for racing in classes, or divisions of classes, for no more than 2 crew, included in a Notice of Race. When specified in a Notice of Race, boats holding short handed certificates, and racing in a short handed class or division, may also be scored in the overall results of the race. The short-handed certificate will be clearly identified and shall only vary from the primary certificate in respect of, mainsail widths, headsail dimensions, single furling headsail allowance, the use of stored power, SPA, STL, spinnaker pole/bowsprit, moveable ballast and variable ballast. A boat holding a shorthanded certificate shall use that certificate for races for no more than 2 crew.
8.2.2 Issue of any new rating certificate automatically invalidates the old one.

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For the IRC's you could use your existing certificate, or have a pre-endorsed certificate to come into effect on Jan 1 to replace your Hobart certificate.  Therefore you cannot hold two certificates, but have been rerated to your inshore setup for the regatta.  Ichi Ban, not changing to their inshore rig or similar ran with the same, however Zen, Celestial, Quest etc all had new certificates issued prior to the regatta for the inshore booms and sails.

As confusing as it is to happen "mid regatta" as it were, its no different to IRC certificate rules anywhere else in the world.

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1 hour ago, Razorblade_Romance said:

For the IRC's you could use your existing certificate, or have a pre-endorsed certificate to come into effect on Jan 1 to replace your Hobart certificate.  Therefore you cannot hold two certificates, but have been rerated to your inshore setup for the regatta.  Ichi Ban, not changing to their inshore rig or similar ran with the same, however Zen, Celestial, Quest etc all had new certificates issued prior to the regatta for the inshore booms and sails. 

As confusing as it is to happen "mid regatta" as it were, its no different to IRC certificate rules anywhere else in the world.

I see they've tried to explicitly allow this under 3.3 of the NOR

3.3 Boats in Div 1 that compete in Race 1, the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race, are
permitted to change their configuration consistent with the IRC certificate under which
they enter the Australian Yachting Championships.

.. but 6.2 seems to say the cert must be valid before the Hobart start!

6.2 IRC rating certificates shall be as provided by the rule or rating authority at 1200 on
Tuesday 24 th December 2019.

 

What a lot of useless fuckerry

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On 1/4/2020 at 7:32 PM, MRS OCTOPUS said:

From .....https://www.sail-world.com/news/225406/?source=rss

We learn they did a passage race around Betsey Island , just east of the iron pot.

From .... http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDT60701/IDT60701.94988.shtml

We learn gust around 30+

Tar... check

pitch fork ... check

Starboard!

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As I understand things only one CT was held at any one time as new one issued after the completion of the Hobart race and before the start of race 2 which for inching ban had the boat 100 kg lighter but different sail configuration

so the real issue was the nor saying that you could race under different CTS as the series progressed not that two CT’s existed at the same time

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The more interesting thing is the conduct of the regatta under irc and the guildlines 

for instance the boat that finished 4th in division 3 sailing the same course as div 4 beat the winner of div 4 in three of the five races so the arbitrary division cuts where everything

both boats were similar types of boats in the scheme of things

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2 hours ago, lydia said:

The more interesting thing is the conduct of the regatta under irc and the guildlines 

for instance the boat that finished 4th in division 3 sailing the same course as div 4 beat the winner of div 4 in three of the five races so the arbitrary division cuts where everything

both boats were similar types of boats in the scheme of things

I don't understand why they don't race all of the boats together so that the IRC champion could be a 50+ footer or a 30 footer. It's as if they want to protect the massive budget TP52's from beaten by a budget but well sailed small boat.

 

 

  

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Just now, The Dark Knight said:

I don't understand why they don't race all of the boats together so that the IRC champion could be a 50+ footer or a 30 footer. It's as if they want to protect the massive budget TP52's from beaten by a budget but well sailed small boat.

 

 

  

sorry, ignore this post

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14 hours ago, jackolantern said:

 

If you read the notes from their latest update they're trying to grapple with how to deal with Code Zeros that have midgirths under 75%. Perhaps the best way to deal with it is to go to a 2 number system with Short Course and Long Course ratings.

I'm really starting to think that this is the way forward, but it doesn't look like IRC want to go that way.  

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1 hour ago, The Dark Knight said:

sorry, ignore this post

Good advice. A somewhat stupid statement 

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13 hours ago, paps49 said:

Get out, really?

Well if you understand that why did you then post that drivel ignorant of that?? Only asking?

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6 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Starboard!

I understand a simple case of the 2019 S2H International Jury not accepting RQYS's charts as evidence at the Protest Hearing you refer where ruling was Port wasn't Starboard.

IMG_20200108_211209.jpg

 

IMG_20200108_212200.jpg

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19 hours ago, lydia said:

The more interesting thing is the conduct of the regatta under irc and the guildlines 

for instance the boat that finished 4th in division 3 sailing the same course as div 4 beat the winner of div 4 in three of the five races so the arbitrary division cuts where everything

both boats were similar types of boats in the scheme of things

There was no Div 4. Do you mean the boat that came 4th in Div 3 beat the winner of Div 2 in 3 of the 5 races? And there were actually 6 races for Divs 2 and 3. The last race for Div 1 was abandoned.

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On 1/7/2020 at 2:14 PM, Recidivist said:

Note also, that, although the boats in the IRC championships were all (I assume) offshore capable, the race organisers knew full well that the boats were racing in inshore configuration (with no reefs, or maybe one reef, available in the main), yet started the long race in 30+ knots (gusting much higher) anyway.  The wisdom of that is somewhat questionable.

Not all the boats were necessarily offshore capable, especially in Div 3 where the majority of boats had not recently competed in the S2H, M2H or L2H.

It was a Cat 5 regatta. The RO was well aware of the conditions and the configuration of the boats and in SMS and VHF communication strongly advised competitors to be prudent in their decision to compete. The RO was not prudent in the choice of course however. Where there were options for courses in more sheltered waters (ie the D'Entrecasteaux Channel) the RO chose to send the fleet into Storm Bay with a forecast of 40 knots.

I know clubs absolve themselves of blame by falling back on RRS 4, but where there is a choice of safer courses, yet they choose the more dangerous option, then there must be some Duty of Care issue here. One crew member had to be lifted off and taken to hospital.

Apart from the risk to safety there was also the risk to fair competition by this decision. One third of the Div 1 fleet had to retire from the passage race with damage. Quest destroyed their main and one of their kites. With Race 6 being abandoned for Div 1 there was no drop. 

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Sorry, 4th in Div 2 as opposed to 1st in Div 3.

So the issue is whether sym boats should race sym boats and asso boats generally race asso boats within a division, or at least boats with similiar hull factors race each other in one division which I understood the IRC policy to endorse once a upon a time.

 

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A heads up on some recent amendments to the IRPCS (QLD)

Image result for two green dots

Sailing vessel under way viewed from the Starboard side.

Image result for two green dots

Sailing vessel underway and racing, viewed from the port side.

These amendments are made in regard to the Quest for safer use of our waterways.

 

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51 minutes ago, lydia said:

Sorry, 4th in Div 2 as opposed to 1st in Div 3.

So the issue is whether sym boats should race sym boats and asso boats generally race asso boats within a division, or at least boats with similiar hull factors race each other in one division which I understood the IRC policy to endorse once a upon a time.

 

Not really possible in Div 3 as we were the only asso boat. But possible to mix the courses up a bit. Instead of 5 straight up and down windward leewards (2 with only a 1nm course length) they could have run 3 WL's and 2 races with a triangle leg.

The breeze shifted so far left in Race 6 - they didn't move the top mark - that the last run was a reach anyway. That's never happened in any other nationals I've sailed in.

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1 hour ago, (p)Irate said:

Not all the boats were necessarily offshore capable, especially in Div 3 where the majority of boats had not recently competed in the S2H, M2H or L2H.

It was a Cat 5 regatta. The RO was well aware of the conditions and the configuration of the boats and in SMS and VHF communication strongly advised competitors to be prudent in their decision to compete. The RO was not prudent in the choice of course however. Where there were options for courses in more sheltered waters (ie the D'Entrecasteaux Channel) the RO chose to send the fleet into Storm Bay with a forecast of 40 knots.

I know clubs absolve themselves of blame by falling back on RRS 4, but where there is a choice of safer courses, yet they choose the more dangerous option, then there must be some Duty of Care issue here. One crew member had to be lifted off and taken to hospital.

Apart from the risk to safety there was also the risk to fair competition by this decision. One third of the Div 1 fleet had to retire from the passage race with damage. Quest destroyed their main and one of their kites. With Race 6 being abandoned for Div 1 there was no drop. 

funny you should bring this up.. given the CYCA themselves have canned offshore Cat2 races with lesser forecasts (ok, we're a bit soft up here compared to you Tassie blokes)

https://www.sailingresources.org.au/safety/risk-management/

In general, the main risks that clubs need to be aware of are risks associated with harm or injury to people and property. Under the law, clubs have a duty of care to:

(a) Their members

(b) Competitors

(c) Spectators

(d) Coaches, instructors, officials

(e) Volunteers

(f) The general public

This duty of care extends from not just the club and its surrounds but also the operations of the club. For example, a sailing event on the water.

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16 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

 

In general, the main risks that clubs need to be aware of are risks associated with harm or injury to people and property. Under the law, clubs have a duty of care to:

(a) Their members

(b) Competitors

(c) Spectators

(d) Coaches, instructors, officials

(e) Volunteers

(f) The general public

(g) Their Lawyers

This duty of care extends from not just the club and its surrounds but also the operations of the club. For example, a sailing event on the water.

They forgot one.

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I love it when this issues comes up.

So is a breach of duty to call off lead up races in heavy weather so as to deny crews the opportunity to properly prepare for a race you will never call off and generally is the one which you need to practice in heavy weather for.

People just don't understand duty of care and more importantly standard of care which actually the main issue.

And completely missed by our yachting administrators is the civil liability legislation in each state and the provisions about "dangerous recreational activity" which makes a lot of these issues just bullshit irrelevancy.

Of course some Australian states have slightly different legislation (Qld v. NSW)

And Commonwealth legislation intrudes now as well.

Our insurance should have dropped with these changes but hey!

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20 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Well if you understand that why did you then post that drivel ignorant of that?? Only asking?

Because it's Xmas and I forgot how much fun this is.

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 1:01 AM, The Dark Knight said:

Hot off the press from Nic...

 

 
 
*Breaking* ALL ARE SAFE ❤️ Thank goodness - love to the Showtime family x
#keepingyoucovered
Mark Griffith:
Drama overnight. At around 2:30am Showtime set off it's Epirb off the NSW coast on way back from Hobart . It is believed that the keel broke away and the boat overturned. All crew were able to make it out and launch the life raft. Now all safe in police boat on way to Port Kembla. Well done to Rob Buchanan and crew for handling such a dangerous situation so well. And thanks to Marine Rescue who responded immediately and professionally.
 
81167455_2720601277983619_41521804682943
 
 

https://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/the-yachts/2019/lce-showtime/

 

Mean time this dutch article published today says the crew is lucky,
Quote from the article: "We were lucky because there were many rescue workers active in the area because of the forest fires." Buchanan adds: "The crew would not have made it because of the many injuries". Terrible! The boys had frightening moments.
KER 40 looses keel
Translation of the article in Dutch:

20200109-lce-showtime-2.jpg.0965247ba807171d84de20aaf4ad078f.jpg

The first keel fracture of 2020 is a fact. While the 628 nautical mile Sydney Hobart Yacht Race was relatively mild in 2019, 
the Northern route back home along the Australian coast is certainly not. No less than 3 sailing yachts sent out an emergency call on January 5 in just 30 minutes.

At 3.10 a.m., the crew of the 30-foot Gun Runner, a one-off designed by Jarkan, requested assistance after losing the mast. Five minutes later, 
the call came from Secret's Business, a Murray 42, who had two wounded on board.

The LCE Showtime by Mark Grifith was in the worst shape. At 2.05 a.m. local time the emergency call came in that the keel of this Ker 40 (see photo above) 
was broken off but that the seven-man crew could have saved themselves with the life raft. They were picked up 3 hours later by the rescue service.

At the time of the keel fracture, wind speeds of 48 knots were measured. The storm caused the boat to capsize immediately after the keel fracture.

Hero action by skipper
According to navigator Rob Buchanan, the survival of the entire crew was in part due to a crew member who "did one of the bravest things I have ever seen". 
After the crew was able to free themselves under the sinking boat, the inflated life jackets prevented them from going back under water to retrieve the life raft.

It was skipper Christian Charalambous who took off his lifejacket to be able to dive under water again to get the raft.
Buchanan says: "The boat was injuring everyone while it struck the waves and we held her tightly."

One crew member was beaten unconscious by the blows of the hull.

After everyone was aboard the life raft, the emergency beacon was activated as well as the personal emergency beacons in the life jackets (PLBs).

According to Buchanan, the life raft was subsequently noticed by a rescue helicopter. "We were lucky because there were many rescue workers active in the area 
because of the forest fires". Buchanan adds: "The crew would not have made it because of the many injuries".

20200109-christian-charalambous.jpg

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5 hours ago, Schakel said:

Mean time this dutch article published today says the crew is lucky,
Quote from the article: "We were lucky because there were many rescue workers active in the area because of the forest fires." Buchanan adds: "The crew would not have made it because of the many injuries". Terrible! The boys had frightening moments.
KER 40 looses keel
Translation of the article in Dutch:

20200109-lce-showtime-2.jpg.0965247ba807171d84de20aaf4ad078f.jpg


The first keel fracture of 2020 is a fact. While the 628 nautical mile Sydney Hobart Yacht Race was relatively mild in 2019, 
the Northern route back home along the Australian coast is certainly not. No less than 3 sailing yachts sent out an emergency call on January 5 in just 30 minutes.

At 3.10 a.m., the crew of the 30-foot Gun Runner, a one-off designed by Jarkan, requested assistance after losing the mast. Five minutes later, 
the call came from Secret's Business, a Murray 42, who had two wounded on board.

The LCE Showtime by Mark Grifith was in the worst shape. At 2.05 a.m. local time the emergency call came in that the keel of this Ker 40 (see photo above) 
was broken off but that the seven-man crew could have saved themselves with the life raft. They were picked up 3 hours later by the rescue service.

At the time of the keel fracture, wind speeds of 48 knots were measured. The storm caused the boat to capsize immediately after the keel fracture.

Hero action by skipper
According to navigator Rob Buchanan, the survival of the entire crew was in part due to a crew member who "did one of the bravest things I have ever seen". 
After the crew was able to free themselves under the sinking boat, the inflated life jackets prevented them from going back under water to retrieve the life raft.

It was skipper Christian Charalambous who took off his lifejacket to be able to dive under water again to get the raft.
Buchanan says: "The boat was injuring everyone while it struck the waves and we held her tightly."

One crew member was beaten unconscious by the blows of the hull.

After everyone was aboard the life raft, the emergency beacon was activated as well as the personal emergency beacons in the life jackets (PLBs).

According to Buchanan, the life raft was subsequently noticed by a rescue helicopter. "We were lucky because there were many rescue workers active in the area 
because of the forest fires". Buchanan adds: "The crew would not have made it because of the many injuries".

20200109-christian-charalambous.jpg

Thanks Schakel,

I hope Mr Christian Charalambous doesn't pay for a round at his club for a whole year.

Diving back under a capsized boat in a sea state with the wind pegging 48 knots? 

That's not only huge balls but shows what being a skipper is really all about, first, foremost and that's looking after his crew. And that's not detracting from the rest of the crew's achievements, they collectively had to have kept their heads together because they got everyone home safe.

It's great to see such positives out of a horrible event.   

 

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That would not have been easy - with the amount of rigging around there. Assuming they used the same location as when Rambler.

 

Makes you wonder if you could rig up a quick release line of some sort that goes out the stern to pop the raft free.

Alt_Ker%2040%20AFR%20Midnight%20Rambler%

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It is one exact scenario that we used to workshop back when I ran the SSSC courses. We had 3 Farr IMS 38's in my fleet back when I first started the business and they had the LR in a removable locker built into the transom.

And for good reason the way those shitboxes were built.

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2 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

That would not have been easy - with the amount of rigging around there. Assuming they used the same location as when Rambler.

 

Makes you wonder if you could rig up a quick release line of some sort that goes out the stern to pop the raft free.

I was thinking that as I contemplated the position of our own liferaft as Showtime flipped about 15 miles ahead of us.  I believe the Mini 6.50s and/or IMOCA 60s require it to be available through the transom so that when the boat is inverted there's no obstacle to extracting the raft

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3 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

That would not have been easy - with the amount of rigging around there. Assuming they used the same location as when Rambler.

 

Makes you wonder if you could rig up a quick release line of some sort that goes out the stern to pop the raft free.

Alt_Ker%2040%20AFR%20Midnight%20Rambler%

 

1 hour ago, DickDastardly said:

I was thinking that as I contemplated the position of our own liferaft as Showtime flipped about 15 miles ahead of us.  I believe the Mini 6.50s and/or IMOCA 60s require it to be available through the transom so that when the boat is inverted there's no obstacle to extracting the raft

Race boats with crew numbers and potential to foul running gear,  performance etc seems to conspire to make raft set ups harder.

Ideally located outside lifelines arse end so maybe two small ones in soft packs? But weight in end where you don't want it at times.

Also there is "float free" set up with a "hydrostatic release" in say traditional aft cockpit floor position? Again not sure if practical if even say the hydro release would work tucked up (when upside down), it/they get caught up inside lifelines/with running gear etc. Not exactly an easy thing to test. 

Aft transom escapes/entry excellent but really more orientated towards short handed crew aka smaller rafts. 

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20 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Aft transom escapes/entry excellent but really more orientated towards short handed crew aka smaller rafts. 

doesnt the Big C have them in the transom?

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46 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Keep up ...It's a fresh edit just released 

Same edit....

CYCA streamed it live on FB and then added it to YT later

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1 minute ago, The Dark Knight said:

Same edit....

CYCA streamed it live on FB and then added it to YT later

Gotcha a Tuber new upload 

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14 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

doesnt the Big C have them in the transom?

Yep but 100 footer has got some cockpit floor to hull space up her sleeve with transom depth big enough for decent size hatch. A Rambler turn turtle lesson?

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The OSR was adjusted as a result of the Rambler 100 capsize.

4.20.3 c) On a multihull or on a monohull with moveable ballast the liferaft shall be readily deployable whether or not the boat is inverted

 

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9 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

Do keep up Jack...

 

You seem a bit uptight in regards to be first with the "breaking"... Breathe ffs

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12 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

Alt_Ker%2040%20AFR%20Midnight%20Rambler%

Stacking stuff on top of the raft like that is a violation, isn't it? Mine has big stickers saying 'do not cover' on the top.

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10 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

I believe the Mini 6.50s and/or IMOCA 60s require it to be available through the transom

The Mini's certainly do, we're also checked we can remove it quickly, that we have a knife with it to cut the painter, and then it's security sealed with fishing line to ensure we don't move it.

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I think this is a good way to store a liferaft.33342d34b777b54b283ebb3b872717b9.webp

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15 hours ago, Moonduster said:

The OSR was adjusted as a result of the Rambler 100 capsize.

4.20.3 c) On a multihull or on a monohull with moveable ballast the liferaft shall be readily deployable whether or not the boat is inverted

 

A keel hurtling to the ocean floor is "moveable ballast."

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Quote Jason "

We have designed a great many keels over the last 23 years which have been constructed by many different builders around the world, none have ever failed.  To the best of our knowledge, Showtime is the only yacht designed by us to have had a keel fitted that was not designed by us.

 The keel, designed by the owner’s local Naval Architect, was configured as a vertical hollow strut welded to a horizontal mounting plate, which in turn was sitting in a shallow recess in the boat’s hull and bolted to the boat’s structure.  This is not a design approach we would ever endorse as the high stress point at the junction is coincident with the horizontal welded joint. "

The last comment suggests the local designer got it wrong. Worrying if true? Certainly somebody got it wrong?

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No, it doesn't mean anything about the design and there's no reason to be afraid of welded structures, provided they're properly designed, constructed, maintained and their (short) fatigue life is well understood. The odd thing about this whole story is that someone decided to pursue a highly engineered solution with a rationale that includes cost savings - although that seems to be speculation, like everything else here.

The problem with highly engineered structures is that they tend to be more costly in the long run. They require an ongoing commitment to testing and they have a shorter design life than a solid hunk of metal; they are not a reasonable choice for the budget minded unless the plan is to sell the boat quickly after installing the new fin and let someone else deal with the lifecycle costs.

All that said, if the design analysis was done properly - and the GL cases include static, dynamic (including grounding) and fatigue - then this would appear to be a fabrication and/or maintenance problem. Overzealous bottom prep or a little electrolysis can easily ruin your whole day with a highly engineered structure. Add to that sourcing the wrong kind of steel, welding with the wrong sticks or the wrong gas or at the wrong speed the list of potential screw ups is very, very long.

Did they at least do well on their southerly coastal tour?

 

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

No, it doesn't mean anything about the design and there's no reason to be afraid of welded structures, provided they're properly designed, constructed, maintained and their (short) fatigue life is well understood. The odd thing about this whole story is that someone decided to pursue a highly engineered solution with a rationale that includes cost savings - although that seems to be speculation, like everything else here.

The problem with highly engineered structures is that they tend to be more costly in the long run. They require an ongoing commitment to testing and they have a shorter design life than a solid hunk of metal; they are not a reasonable choice for the budget minded unless the plan is to sell the boat quickly after installing the new fin and let someone else deal with the lifecycle costs.

All that said, if the design analysis was done properly - and the GL cases include static, dynamic (including grounding) and fatigue - then this would appear to be a fabrication and/or maintenance problem. Overzealous bottom prep or a little electrolysis can easily ruin your whole day with a highly engineered structure. Add to that sourcing the wrong kind of steel, welding with the wrong sticks or the wrong gas or at the wrong speed the list of potential screw ups is very, very long.

Did they at least do well on their southerly coastal tour?

 

Jason Ker disagrees with you Moonduster. 

Quote "

While they made their plans to escape it was apparent to Rob that the inverted boat was holding air pressure in the hull, so the top plate of the keel can only have remained fully bolted to the yacht.  When the crew swam down out of the boat, they saw that the vertical part of the keel was missing, revealing that the keel had failed at the welded joint between the exposed vertical and the recessed horizontal parts.

 Ker Design would support any World Sailing move to ban this low cost but high risk style of ‘welded T’ keel construction.

Best regards,
Jason

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17 hours ago, Snowden said:

Stacking stuff on top of the raft like that is a violation, isn't it? Mine has big stickers saying 'do not cover' on the top.

Mine says 'No step'. It doesn't stop them standing on it. 

 

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On 1/9/2020 at 3:04 PM, LB 15 said:

 

These amendments are made in regard to the Quest for safer use of our waterways.

 

I’m in Envy of your ability to get these changes to the IRPCSSEQ before anyone else.

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On 1/11/2020 at 7:33 AM, LB 15 said:

Mine says 'No step'. It doesn't stop them standing on it. 

 

Try this

706069157678.jpg?size=xl

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On 12/26/2019 at 3:23 PM, Jason AUS said:

Pretty sure PIL is out injured.

 

Correct

On 12/27/2019 at 9:27 AM, The Dark Knight said:

Yep, I posted the live links as each new battery went in and heard them thank you for driving them (and keeping the boat the right way up)

Thanks..

On 12/27/2019 at 3:39 PM, Jason AUS said:

What is the answer to life, the universe and everything in it?

 

XL2  (42) or so deep thought computer tells us

On 12/27/2019 at 9:50 PM, terrafirma said:

 

From last years race..

26114489_1398209673639378_5987750578850004344_o.jpg

3 years ago ... still has manual grinders

On 12/28/2019 at 6:10 AM, ChristianSch said:

Halyard in front of the jib creates a nice turbulence. It would be interesting to calculate how much this turbulence effects the speed in upwind mode?

Comanch halyard.jpg

Forestay not halyard

On 12/28/2019 at 3:03 PM, Unkle Krusty said:

Watching Comanche going up the harbour, and then stopping, I wondered if they needed to put crew on the low side, or forward. Or whether they balanced the boat somewhat with the keel. The commentary said things about the crew pulling ropes. Was visible but I am not sure what they were attached to. A bit later a shot showed 12 crew forward of the mast, and a bit later moving  crew further forward. So that I will assume was to get the fat rear end out of the water and reduce drag. I heard nothing in the commentary about this, but might have missed it. After the start, the younger guy said they were doing 20 upwind. It makes me wonder about their knowledge, and who they think the audience is. Now I would like to see Fidelis beat Kialoa, but I like and have respect for both boats, and the guys who originally sailed them.

Weight forward only... keel can do the rest

 

 

Well I just got back on line and finally read all.....

Seems all here have been well behaved..... until recently but I'm not touching that...

Congrats to my friend Jim Cooney on the win and I thank him sincerely for putting together a lot of people that are now life long friends through all his boats (Including you @Jason AUS.)... Brindabella, Maserati, Bumble Bee and Comanche. Also to his wife Samantha and kids James, Julia and Dougy...I'm stoked he drove the beast off the line and down the coast... 
I believe it is now fair to say that the boat is by far the quickest supermaxi in the world by a ways so that argument year in year out from the WO boys IMO is dead although I give their team a wrap for just getting to the start this year..I also have to say after much thought... Rico is very talented as he steers and is also the sailing master, crew boss, boat boss, mainsheet, pit, mid bow and bowman.... now that is micro management.... how does he keep his head in the boat and steer...?

My observations from the sidelines this year was Comanche killed it and I hope we see her back in Oz next year. ..Infotrack was a giant killer and conditions were good but they sailed it right...WO looked very average in and out of the harbour with trim and could not take a trick but impressive at the end to come back.... BJ was just kind of average all up and was very nose down going down hill as opposed to the rest so will be very interested to hear Squarks opinion and postmortem of the recent mods ..... Scally was good all round and could have upset some and may in the future.

Congrats to Matt Allan again on the best and most consistent run program in world sailing and a special shout to the Itchy boat captain and my XL2 crew mate and friend Timmy Sellers. They just keep stepping up..

Terrible news about Show Time but thankful all got off and I know first hand not to give up on the boat being found.... my guess is it will turn up but likely not in Oz.

Now on the that.... Showtime and my own incident have led me decide to wear manual inflate only jackets offshore... so NO auto inflate from now on.....that's to be continued another time..

Big props to my buddy Bradshaw the navaguesser on Infotrack.... a huge result... That Christian Beck is one humble, cool dude... best post race interview I've seen (except when Rico put his foot in mouth to the ABC..?on the AIS incident)

For me.... best race (that I wasn't involved in) for years...

 

Now to Sailor Girl Nic Douglass(Adventures of a Sailor Girl)

Many here will know of Nic but those that don't , she covers up to or over 50 of the biggest sailing events a year around the world as a journalist providing results, commentary and vision, all live to facebook. I've been following her for years and enjoy sitting at work tuning in whenever possible. It's a business and she takes it seriously but with some great humor thrown in for entertainment. Can't speak highly enough of it.

I found out that for years Nic Douglas has had a vision to fill the huge void in Sydney to Hobart coverage that Channel 7 won't do and that's to bring everyone, whether in the race or not, some vision and commentary of EVERY man, woman and boat on the race course. Start and finish. We are talking about all the entrants from front to mid to tail end of the fleet that never get seen in the big commercial 7 package.....  She is seriously passionate about this and it shows.

I'm not sure you all know how big a job that is, especially on the limited budget she operates with. It's a tiny but dedicated team (sometimes just her) that make it all happen.

After a call from Nic I was more than happy to be asked to assist her with the Cronulla Sailng Club Noosa Cat as a chase / drone boat for the offshore filming at the start after channel 7 was done filming the maxi's at 2.00pm.

It was a great experience and an eye opener for me with her team of Rob Douglas (father and legend world champ sailor) Nev Whitty (world class / Olympic sailor) on the mic, Tiana "Side Nic" Whitty (Nevs Daughter and also a world class sailor and up and coming journo) assisting Nic at the CYC base, Ronny (sailor / adventurer) Ace drone pilot and Matty Pierce (Sailmaker, rigger and big boat sailing legend) helping me drink beer and eating sambos... And of course me (a has been big boat sailor and Multihull flipper)

It was her first attempt at doing the whole fleet and i think she killed it..... so get online and follow her coverage.... we need more Nics in sailing...
You can watch all replays at 

https://www.facebook.com/sailorgirlHQ/.....

If you like it then let her know in the comments...

Happy New Year Anarchists 
Pil

 

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Nice summary Pil. And agree about Nic.

Couple of questions (curious about the influence between the VOR and the S-H, since so many of the sailors I hear about do both).

Any thoughts whether the VOR experience helped or hindered Scallwag this S-H?  I was kinda wondering if we might see a whole new level for them, somehow, but didn't seem to make much difference.

and, did you pick up any hints  whether the VOR's efforts made much difference  getting more women and under 30s  into key rides and positions? 

Cheers, and best wishes for this year too.

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, stief said:

Nice summary Pil. And agree about Nic.

Couple of questions (curious about the influence between the VOR and the S-H, since so many of the sailors I hear about do both).

Any thoughts whether the VOR experience helped or hindered Scallwag this S-H?  I was kinda wondering if we might see a whole new level for them, somehow, but didn't seem to make much difference.

and, did you pick up any hints  whether the VOR's efforts made much difference  getting more women and under 30s  into key rides and positions? 

Cheers, and best wishes for this year too.

 

 

 

No doubt the VOR helps anyone that races anywhere offshore in the form of discipline and experience... In Scally's case they have very few VOR crew left from their program but yes those that are left are way better for it....    The shore crew benefit even more so the whole program gets a boost.
Dave Witt doesn't spend the $ on crew like Comanche, BJ and Wo and Inftrack is between all which makes there race result so impressive.

I believe the girls have benefited. I do notice more coming through and those that raced VOR previously all seem employed as pros around the world but I must say few were entered this year....

Getting under 30's involved is tricky. Sailing at club level is declining slightly world wide but it's being discussed more now and Sailing Australia is now being quite helpful so i think the future is bright for us here...

Lets see how the entries go next year .... I suspect it will be quiet ac across the whole except maybe 45-60footers

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11 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Sailing Australia is now being quite helpful

Sorry, what??

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17 minutes ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

True story... lately they have stepped up for the club and been helpful...

The latest from Nic

https://fbwat.ch/1wJ8seOGmZHk1s07

No, it will only because you are getting lined up for some new licencing fee or a cut of the intellectual property rights.

Just read the World Sailing position on this.

I always cross out the media rights clauses on the entry forms.

Like the indemnity clauses which I amend as the standard one voids your insurance in most cases.

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11 hours ago, lydia said:

No, it will only because you are getting lined up for some new licencing fee or a cut of the intellectual property rights.

Maybe nearly at the point Nic stays in niche she has now, builds upon it and owns everything, letting the Catholic Youth Club and their appointed Broadcaster keep their first 80 minutes (60+20) in the harbour?

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I'll be honest, I wish that she provided the same coverage that she does now but does it in a slightly more professional way. I don't mean production value, I don't mean change her focus. I mean purely be a little less verbal diarreah on the microphone, ask questions of your interviews that delve deeper into their race than "isn't this great? Aren't drinks great? Bet you want a drink!", only say "this is nic douglass for adventures of a sailor girl" at the beginning and end of your videos, not like on live streams where every time someone signs on you feel the need to repeat your brand, spend less time talking to/about the other people on the media boat and more time talking about what's happening on the camera.

 

She's omnipresent and her coverage is good but it's all fluff and sometimes it seems like she wants to be friends with everybody more than she actually wants to interview them. 

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29 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

I'll be honest, I wish that she provided the same coverage that she does now but does it in a slightly more professional way. I don't mean production value, I don't mean change her focus. I mean purely be a little less verbal diarreah on the microphone, ask questions of your interviews that delve deeper into their race than "isn't this great? Aren't drinks great? Bet you want a drink!", only say "this is nic douglass for adventures of a sailor girl" at the beginning and end of your videos, not like on live streams where every time someone signs on you feel the need to repeat your brand, spend less time talking to/about the other people on the media boat and more time talking about what's happening on the camera.

 

She's omnipresent and her coverage is good but it's all fluff and sometimes it seems like she wants to be friends with everybody more than she actually wants to interview them. 

That's the state of "sailing press" and not specifically fair to her.

Look at the number of "I'm press" VIP invites who sing a corporate tune drinking champagne on some superyacht until they're not invited to the next VIP event. They're more like paid for expensed PR amplifiers than objective press. There's no recognition of inherent conflicts of interest - no effort to even appear disinterested or avoid the appearance of impropriety. 

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If I was advising Nic I’d be buying her a plane ticket and tell her to forget Oz for a few years and focus on the EU and US markets.

CYCA naively sign a contract with CH7 that is all about CH7 and does zero for one of the worlds best ocean races. As a by product, they then have to stomp on people like Nic, who are 100% committed and are passionate about the sport .

The race should be taken off CYCA, they are taking the money to the detriment of the sport.

 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

That's the state of "sailing press" and not specifically fair to her.

Look at the number of "I'm press" VIP invites who sing a corporate tune drinking champagne on some superyacht until they're not invited to the next VIP event. They're more like paid for expensed PR amplifiers than objective press. There's no recognition of inherent conflicts of interest - no effort to even appear disinterested or avoid the appearance of impropriety. 

You’re correct. I listened to an unnamed podcast recently which amounted to over an hour of revisionist history and glossing over a history of cheating and rule bending. The interviewer did no follow up questions and gushed over a known and convicted cheater.

Why do boats like Envy Scooters push through with fouls that get them chucked off the podium? Because nobody in the sailing press does follow up on those incidents to show that there are consequences.  Clubs brush it under the carpet because they don’t want to be known for foul play under the guise of “bad press is bad for the sport.” The media brush it under the rug because they don’t get a media flag for their powerboat if they are seen as criticizing participants. And nobody has thought that what would be good for the sport is enforcing the rules and showing potential new owners they won’t get fouled out of a race 100 yards off the line.  

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6 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

If I was advising Nic I’d be buying her a plane ticket and tell her to forget Oz for a few years and focus on the EU and US markets.

CYCA naively sign a contract with CH7 that is all about CH7 and does zero for one of the worlds best ocean races. As a by product, they then have to stomp on people like Nic, who are 100% committed and are passionate about the sport .

The race should be taken off CYCA, they are taking the money to the detriment of the sport.

 

How can the race be taken away from them?  Its not up for grabs.  CYCA own the race.

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On 1/12/2020 at 11:10 PM, PIL66 - XL2 said:


It was a great experience and an eye opener for me with her team of Rob Douglas (father and legend world champ sailor) Nev Whitty (world class / Olympic sailor) on the mic, Tiana "Side Nic" Whitty (Nevs Daughter and also a world class sailor and up and coming journo) assisting Nic at the CYC base, Ronny (sailor / adventurer) Ace drone pilot and Matty Pierce (Sailmaker, rigger and big boat sailing legend) helping me drink beer and eating sambos... And of course me (a has been big boat sailor and Multihull flipper)

It was her first attempt at doing the whole fleet and i think she killed it..... so get online and follow her coverage.... we need more Nics in sailing...
 

I wish I was there to see it. Sounds like a coverage boat made in heaven.  Miss ya PIL and please tell BK "ONYA" for me and Mer

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9 minutes ago, trt131 said:

How can the race be taken away from them?  Its not up for grabs.  CYCA own the race.

G’day Trt131,

I know mate, but anything can be taken away from anyone, just because it might be a cunt act doesn’t qualify as reason anymore. 

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6 hours ago, Miffy said:

They're more like paid for expensed PR amplifiers than objective press. 

It's cute that you think there was ever objective press who would accept an invitation to be on a gin palace. Or that there were ever objective press, full stop.

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14 minutes ago, trt131 said:

How can the race be taken away from them?  Its not up for grabs.  CYCA own the race.

It is just a product nowdays

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17 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I wish I was there to see it. Sounds like a coverage boat made in heaven.  Miss ya PIL and please tell BK "ONYA" for me and Mer

Yeah Al I will..... BK killed it in the Nav roll.... so stoked for him

Come down next year for Summer and bring the family

 

 

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7 hours ago, jackolantern said:

I'll be honest, I wish that she provided the same coverage that she does now but does it in a slightly more professional way. I don't mean production value, I don't mean change her focus. I mean purely be a little less verbal diarreah on the microphone, ask questions of your interviews that delve deeper into their race than "isn't this great? Aren't drinks great? Bet you want a drink!", only say "this is nic douglass for adventures of a sailor girl" at the beginning and end of your videos, not like on live streams where every time someone signs on you feel the need to repeat your brand, spend less time talking to/about the other people on the media boat and more time talking about what's happening on the camera.

 

She's omnipresent and her coverage is good but it's all fluff and sometimes it seems like she wants to be friends with everybody more than she actually wants to interview them. 

Nic can't exist without these sponsors she promotes... I don't profess to know how it works but I'm sure she plugs them as much as she does to give them value for money or return on investment. It's a balance that only she knows...

As far as "verbal diarrhea" goes, It's your opinion and i hope it's meant as constructive criticism which I'm sure she takes on board as you need thick skin in this sailing / media / Anarchy game. That's her style, he admits she's 100 miles an hour but that's also why it works and why many of us follow her. The Gordon Brays or Shirley Robinson's are boring by comparison imo... And I also like the fact that she is having a beer with you at the end of the day.... 

I just hope she gets the backing and contracts she deserves and I suspect she will by her work ethic...Watch this space, she is going places.

Nic Fanboy PIL

  

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I wish I was there to see it. Sounds like a coverage boat made in heaven.  Miss ya PIL and please tell BK "ONYA" for me and Mer

You were missed Clean. Gave you, SA, Petey and Sander a big shout out when reminiscing of the Moth Worlds! Hope all is well with you, Mer and the family.

This was my first time working for Nic, as opposed to just working with her on a past Moth Worlds event for SA. No one is perfect, I understand some of the constructive criticisms and opinions, though I can say she is doing her damned best at all times and is seriously passionate about the sport and increasing it's visibility and outreach. Nic is a rock star of a person and sailor and I was super happy to work with her on this project and hope to do so in the future. Our highlight reel just dropped on her "Adventures of a Sailor Girl" Facebook page, and despite how many countless hours we both put into it, i'm pretty happy with the end result. 

Great to have you onboard Pil, as well as Rob, Nev, Tiana, and everyone else. The coverage that Nic has helped create is exactly what SA has been justifiably claiming the sport and the S2H has needed for years. 

-Ronnie

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Here is the full Adventures of a Sailor Girl highlight reel that Nic and I edited and put together. This was a LOT of hours!

And here is a quick drone edit that I made of the return delivery onboard the InfoTrack

 

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2 hours ago, ronnie_simpson said:

You were missed Clean. Gave you, SA, Petey and Sander a big shout out when reminiscing of the Moth Worlds! Hope all is well with you, Mer and the family.

This was my first time working for Nic, as opposed to just working with her on a past Moth Worlds event for SA. No one is perfect, I understand some of the constructive criticisms and opinions, though I can say she is doing her damned best at all times and is seriously passionate about the sport and increasing it's visibility and outreach. Nic is a rock star of a person and sailor and I was super happy to work with her on this project and hope to do so in the future. Our highlight reel just dropped on her "Adventures of a Sailor Girl" Facebook page, and despite how many countless hours we both put into it, i'm pretty happy with the end result. 

Great to have you onboard Pil, as well as Rob, Nev, Tiana, and everyone else. The coverage that Nic has helped create is exactly what SA has been justifiably claiming the sport and the S2H has needed for years. 

-Ronnie

Legend Drone freak Ronnie is in the house..... great images buddy....

I would like to see the footage of you driving the drone into the sailing club wall if you have it...

If anyone here wants some drone work done, Ronnie is your guy....

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3 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Nic can't exist without these sponsors she promotes... I don't profess to know how it works but I'm sure she plugs them as much as she does to give them value for money or return on investment. It's a balance that only she knows...

As far as "verbal diarrhea" goes, It's your opinion and i hope it's meant as constructive criticism which I'm sure she takes on board as you need thick skin in this sailing / media / Anarchy game. That's her style, he admits she's 100 miles an hour but that's also why it works and why many of us follow her. The Gordon Brays or Shirley Robinson's are boring by comparison imo... And I also like the fact that she is having a beer with you at the end of the day.... 

I just hope she gets the backing and contracts she deserves and I suspect she will by her work ethic...Watch this space, she is going places.

Nic Fanboy PIL

  

good onya for helping out PIL, way cool.

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