Bob Perry

San Diego to Ensenada Race

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Congratulations Scot and crew on your win. Glad to see the Flying Tiger 10 m can still win.

Thanks.

 

 

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Thanks Bob! God damn do I love this boat!

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Congrats to the Ed and crew for sending it. 

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It would have been cool if they all had mount gay hats

 

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I was told by my sponsor [back in the stone ages of surfing]"If you want a pink board you better be ready if you can't deliver."  Congratulations and thanks for your candor filled website.

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8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Congratulations Scot and crew on your win. Glad to see the Flying Tiger 10 m can still win.

Thanks.

 

 

How did this commission come about Bob? It's a bit different than the boats you are known for designing.

I like when older designs can show something to the new kids..

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thanks y'all! truly appreciate it. and videos are coming!

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2 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

How did this commission come about Bob? It's a bit different than the boats you are known for designing.

I like when older designs can show something to the new kids..

It's what got me hooked on SA way back - BP is retelling the story on theRobert Perry yacht designer fan club on Facebook. Bob writes like he is speaking to you.  It's the only reason I am still on FB.  Bob didn't start the page, fans did and they post pictures of their boats in different places, ask and share info. The FT design process was pretty raucous - Bob opened it up to all comers with lots of great input and the usual assholes but he made it work.  It was a fun and entertaining time to be here. 

Oh, and congrats Scot - well done and you are absolutely correct that it's a boat that takes talent and rewards you for it. 

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thanks d'ranger. i love to hear this stuff from anarchists like you.

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Russell:

If you go to Facebook and look for the Robert Perry yacht designer Fan Club page (and no, as d'ranger said, I had nothing to do with setting the fan club up) you will find I wrote a 2 part piece on how the FT 10 m came to life. I explain in detail the importance that SA played in the process. There were 325 members in the fan club when I joined. There are now 3,340. I has allowed me to get to know many of the owners of my boats and I now have a huge archive of photos of my boats.

 

D'ranger:     Thanks.

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Great PH result (congrats!!).  ORR was pretty different with the two 125s being 1/3 and you at 2 (I believe a 6 min spread?). My guess is you would have gotten both of us under ORR if you would have sailed offshore like Timeshaver.  Being in-shore with us was fast, but offshore was way better.  Question: I get PH is "performance-based" and cheaper, but could ORR be the more accurate system.  Love to hear peoples thoughts.

As for this little jaunt down the coast, the Tiger was certainly quick in the pre-125 planing conditions.  Although we passed you early in the lighter stuff (125s started 10 min after the Tigers), we stopped extending in 12-15 kts.  Just couldn't shake you until the breeze got into the 16+ range.  Then what was a big "A4" spinnaker in the rear-view became a tiny spec on the horizon B).  Unfortunately, by that point the damage was already done.  Hats off guys.  Great race!

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PHRF is an empirical system based upon experience and a relatively constant number(there are 3 -Buoy, RLC, and OWC but no wind component) . ORR is probably more accurate as its based on VPPs that have been improved over time.  Its really hard to be truly fair when planing boats are involved and you don't have a wind component.

The difference in scoring accuracy can come down to whether a wind matrix is used or a single number. I don't expect weekend RCs to go to the effort of setting wind matrices (either pre or post race) so many of the races end up be slanted to one condition or another. Sounds like this race was a mid range (i.e. lighter early as evidenced by the early planing of the Tiger and then the wind came up to J125 range, and they were off - we have seen this in recent N2Es as well). You can't really account for all that without a bit of work by the RC so we live with the horses for courses of the day.

Just looking at the elapsed times - Anarchy did well, no matter what the system - congrats!

 

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Good for your crew Scot.  Now do you still think your PHRF rating is wrong?

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5 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

PHRF is an empirical system based upon experience and a relatively constant number(there are 3 -Buoy, RLC, and OWC but no wind component) . ORR is probably more accurate as its based on VPPs that have been improved over time.  Its really hard to be truly fair when planing boats are involved and you don't have a wind component.

The difference in scoring accuracy can come down to whether a wind matrix is used or a single number. I don't expect weekend RCs to go to the effort of setting wind matrices (either pre or post race) so many of the races end up be slanted to one condition or another. Sounds like this race was a mid range (i.e. lighter early as evidenced by the early planing of the Tiger and then the wind came up to J125 range, and they were off - we have seen this in recent N2Es as well). You can't really account for all that without a bit of work by the RC so we live with the horses for courses of the day.

Just looking at the elapsed times - Anarchy did well, no matter what the system - congrats!

 

A 40' boat racing a 33' come on!

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:48 PM, daffy said:

A 40' boat racing a 33' come on!

Yeah, did one this summer 26’ vs 38’, i congratulated the winner before the race started. 

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11 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Scot, that music was about as Homo as you are....................LOL

 

 

 

Has any one looked closely at the video and seen the rule 42 problems about pumping that could be asked ?

 

In a few shoots the crew look like they are pumping more than once  per wave and rule 42 about pumping could of been pushed.and questioned. In Oz some of our kids Get pulled up for pumping at most major regattas and made to do turns for breaking the rules. 

 

In saying that well done Scott and crew you all sailed hard and pushed the boat all the way. 

 

It it was just something I picked up in the video.

 

Pulpit 

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1 hour ago, pulpit said:

Has any one looked closely at the video and seen the rule 42 problems about pumping that could be asked ?

 

In a few shoots the crew look like they are pumping more than once  per wave and rule 42 about pumping could of been pushed.and questioned. In Oz some of our kids Get pulled up for pumping at most major regattas and made to do turns for breaking the rules. 

 

In saying that well done Scott and crew you all sailed hard and pushed the boat all the way. 

 

It it was just something I picked up in the video.

 

Pulpit 

 

 

very first thing i thought when i saw the video yesterday afternoon on the front page.

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I noticed it right away too!  If I got second place to these guys and then saw that video, I’d be a little “disappointed”.

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You make the call....

42.3 Exceptions (a) A boat may be rolled to facilitate steering. (b) A boat’s crew may move their bodies to exaggerate the rolling that facilitates steering the boat through a tack or a gybe, provided that, just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe. (c) Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the front of a wave) or planing is possible, the boat’s crew may pull in any sail in order to initiate surfing or planing, but each sail may be pulled in only once for each wave or gust of wind.

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4 hours ago, full circle said:

 

 

very first thing i thought when i saw the video yesterday afternoon on the front page.

Me as well. Although in heavier conditions like that the rules should allow for unlimited pumping IMO. Like in Finns.... 

It's a sport. Let sailors be athletic. Let them work the boat as hard as they can.  

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3 minutes ago, Big Show said:

Me as well. Although in heavier conditions like that the rules should allow for unlimited pumping IMO. Like in Finns.... 

It's a sport. Let sailors be athletic. Let them work the boat as hard as they can.  

Is that fair to bigger boats where pumping physically cannot happen?  

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I believe so, yes. If you're going to allow any pumping at all. 

Larger boats have other strengths smaller boats have difficulty overcoming.  

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Scott,

after smoking'em, and

On 10/7/2018 at 12:55 PM, Editor said:

Thanks Bob! God damn do I love this boat!

what do you like about the FT10 vs say the M32 you had for a spell?

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It's always  somethin'.

Scot:

I'd also be interested in your answer to Dolphin's question.

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Scot,

I am looking forward to your reply to pulpit's pumping question.

papagayo

 

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2 hours ago, Big Show said:

It's a sport. Let sailors be athletic. Let them work the boat as hard as they can.  

That is funny, let sailors be athletic.

When we are in an age where youth is moving on and PHRF does not allow life lines to be slack enough for real hiking. My crew hate the rules.

Athletics are out the window when it comes to PHRF.

If you want change make sure younger people get on the local and regional boards. Too many old people will poison the sport.

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   Count on pumps is OK given the cross chop - but amount sails were moved was poor. Main should have been working on 2:1 purchase, not 4:1. Spi pumps had very little throw. Looking good for the camera was about all.

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19 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Scot, that music was about as Homo as you are....................LOL

I know you've got this bitter personal vendetta against the owner of this site, but this non-stop bitching by you just looks petty and pointless.

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22 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Scot, that music was about as Homo as you are....................LOL

 

 

2 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

I know you've got this bitter personal vendetta against the owner of this site, but this non-stop bitching by you just looks petty and pointless.

 

You know nothing. I, over my 13 years of working on this site, tried to teach Scot something about tech.

We started this site in March of 2001 and it is now October of 2018 and he still is a Tech 1d10t.

so please go someplace else to kiss ass.

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On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 5:01 PM, evenflow said:

Good for your crew Scot.  Now do you still think your PHRF rating is wrong?

Are you referring to this?  Written by Guess Who in May of 2017?

"i had jim teeters do an orr/phrf comparison between a number of boats. the one boat that was "an outlier" according to teeters was, the ft 10. orr showed it to be significantly faster than the gift numbers phrf has given it. i simply used actual data instead of bitching and complaining that is the usual M O by people around here to point out that it is actually the ft 10's that needed a rating hit. and they still do. but of course because there was an ft 10 hack/whiner owner on the board, the rating wasn't touched. and then in SoCal, FT 10 owners showed up and cried like the twats almost every single one of them are.

ANYONE who has raced on or against an ft 10 in so cal knows that they have one of the most incredible gift ratings. there is simply no other way to look at it. so as i pointed out, you have no idea what you are talking about. and anytime you want to contact me directly to discuss, you are free to do so."

 

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1 hour ago, AlR said:

Are you referring to this?  Written by Guess Who in May of 2017?

"i had jim teeters do an orr/phrf comparison between a number of boats. the one boat that was "an outlier" according to teeters was, the ft 10. orr showed it to be significantly faster than the gift numbers phrf has given it. i simply used actual data instead of bitching and complaining that is the usual M O by people around here to point out that it is actually the ft 10's that needed a rating hit. and they still do. but of course because there was an ft 10 hack/whiner owner on the board, the rating wasn't touched. and then in SoCal, FT 10 owners showed up and cried like the twats almost every single one of them are.

ANYONE who has raced on or against an ft 10 in so cal knows that they have one of the most incredible gift ratings. there is simply no other way to look at it. so as i pointed out, you have no idea what you are talking about. and anytime you want to contact me directly to discuss, you are free to do so."

 

Too funny.

Who was GW quoting, btw? 

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2 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Too funny.

Who was GW quoting, btw? 

Guess Who isn't someone quoting someone else.  It simply means you should guess who wrote it.  The hints for your guess would be their initials are ST and they currently own a boat with a gift rating that needs to be changed, according to their own words.

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2 hours ago, AlR said:

Guess Who isn't someone quoting someone else.  It simply means you should guess who wrote it.  The hints for your guess would be their initials are ST and they currently own a boat with a gift rating that needs to be changed, according to their own words.

if you can't beat em' , join em'  !

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6 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

he still is a Tech 1d10t.

Most bosses are.

You feel like you were wronged and are bitter about it. You've said so 1,273 times already.

What's the point in rehashing this over and over and over again?

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Great video, great result great outfits

No lifejackets!!

One mob and you're in serious shit

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9 hours ago, Lynch said:

Great video, great result great outfits

No lifejackets!!

One mob and you're in serious shit

Lynch

 

Under the rules in most races if you have life lines fitted  you don’t to wear life jackets. It’s up to the skipper or crew to make the call to put life jackets on. 

 

In saying that the  life lines were very loose.

 

pulpit 

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23 hours ago, AlR said:
On 10/9/2018 at 5:01 PM, evenflow said:

Good for your crew Scot.  Now do you still think your PHRF rating is wrong?

Are you referring to this?  Written by Guess Who in May of 2017?

"i had jim teeters do an orr/phrf comparison between a number of boats. the one boat that was "an outlier" according to teeters was, the ft 10. orr showed it to be significantly faster than the gift numbers phrf has given it. i simply used actual data instead of bitching and complaining that is the usual M O by people around here to point out that it is actually the ft 10's that needed a rating hit. and they still do. but of course because there was an ft 10 hack/whiner owner on the board, the rating wasn't touched. and then in SoCal, FT 10 owners showed up and cried like the twats almost every single one of them are.

ANYONE who has raced on or against an ft 10 in so cal knows that they have one of the most incredible gift ratings. there is simply no other way to look at it. so as i pointed out, you have no idea what you are talking about. and anytime you want to contact me directly to discuss, you are free to do so."

 

 

Here is what So Cal PHRF thinks. This is actual data and yes, I am on the regional board.

The Farr (mumm) 30 a 90's boat that was the first professional boat in  the USA that I can remember.
54-42-42

First the Farr 30 was designed for a Sym, not an Asym. Therefore the Asym of a Farr 30 is based on a different formula.
SLU shall not exceed 1.03 times the square root of (ISP² + SPL²) SF shall not exceed 1.8*SPL ASMW shall not exceed 1.8*SPL

The FT10M )33ft)
51-45-39

Why the F does a 90's design give a modern design 3sec /mil in a rlc race???

Where as a modern boat, FT10M, with a huge sprit may have a huge ASYM.
SLU shall not exceed 1.15 times the square root of (ISP² + SPL²) SF shall not exceed 1.8*SPL ASMW shall not exceed 1.8*SPL

 

1.03 vs 1.15, that is a huge difference.

All of the formulas may be viewed at  http://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/Rules/lr.pdf

All of the formulas may change at any time and I hope they do.
I have been arguing that older boats should not be saddled with smaller Asym dimensions or the owners will not want to upgrade.
If we do not encourage owners of older boats to spend money, then the sport is doomed.
Why cannot an owner of an older boat buy an Asym without taking a penalty is beyond me,

PHRF is a fucked up rule and I have no idea who fucked it up.

I may not be able to argue this in equity  on the regional board much longer.
I am just about done with sailing in the toilet of PHRF.
Besides I am on the edge of age and my body cannot take it much longer.

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

Here is what So Cal PHRF thinks. This is actual data and yes, I am on the regional board.

The Farr (mumm) 30 a 90's boat that was the first professional boat in  the USA that I can remember.
54-42-42

First the Farr 30 was designed for a Sym, not an Asym. Therefore the Asym of a Farr 30 is based on a different formula.
SLU shall not exceed 1.03 times the square root of (ISP² + SPL²) SF shall not exceed 1.8*SPL ASMW shall not exceed 1.8*SPL

The FT10M )33ft)
51-45-39

Why the F does a 90's design give a modern design 3sec /mil in a rlc race???

Where as a modern boat, FT10M, with a huge sprit may have a huge ASYM.
SLU shall not exceed 1.15 times the square root of (ISP² + SPL²) SF shall not exceed 1.8*SPL ASMW shall not exceed 1.8*SPL

 

1.03 vs 1.15, that is a huge difference.

All of the formulas may be viewed at  http://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/Rules/lr.pdf

All of the formulas may change at any time and I hope they do.
I have been arguing that older boats should not be saddled with smaller Asym dimensions or the owners will not want to upgrade.
If we do not encourage owners of older boats to spend money, then the sport is doomed.
Why cannot an owner of an older boat buy an Asym without taking a penalty is beyond me,

PHRF is a fucked up rule and I have no idea who fucked it up.

I may not be able to argue this in equity  on the regional board much longer.
I am just about done with sailing in the toilet of PHRF.
Besides I am on the edge of age and my body cannot take it much longer.

You PHRF fools were conned from the outset.  In your post above you just did a very peripheral look at some minor numbers, like PHRF fools always do.  Maybe you should do a deep dive.  Maybe you should have done that before giving the FT10 its initial rating.

FT10 is about 10% longer sailing length compared to the Farr.  It is a foot narrower, so it has much less resistance downwind.  The spinnaker area is about 40% more.  All these details make it MUCH faster off the wind than the Farr.  But you fools look at it and say it was designed by Perry, so don't rate it harshly, he's not that good.  Bill Lee taught everyone one thing years ago.  If you make a boat light and narrow and put a cloud of sail on, she will be fast downwind, regardless of how bad the hull shape is or the foils are.

Everyone learned this except the fools that run PHRF SoCal, and by extension PHRF SD.  No one who has ever been in one of your meetings expects you will ever get it right.  So just smile and shine up the trophies for the owners you already gifted.

 

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Under the rules in most races if you have life lines fitted  you don’t to wear life jackets.

?????   Not sure what is the norm in SoCal but you'd be wrong in NorCal.    Most every race IN THE BAY requires a PFD now.   Ocean races require it at all times (except while changes cloths, etc).   Been that way for a while.   

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18 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

PHRF is a fucked up rule and I have no idea who fucked it up.

No idea WHO fucked it up?

PHRF SoCal has been a clown car for at least the past 20 years, populated by hacks and losers.  Mr. Wad, if you sit in one of those monthly meetings and can’t identify they are hacks and losers, you are one of them.

If a boat had been presented to PHRF with the same dimensions as the FT10 and the designer was listed as Farr or R/P the rating would have been different.  You know it, I know it, PHRF knows it.  So the thing started out with a gift rating, especially downwind.  It didn't hurt to have a couple of the board members considering purchases of FT10s when the rating was given.

The FT10 was originally presented to PHRF with an OD trim that included shitty single source one design sails and undersized spinnakers.  This was going to be a cheap mom-and-pop class.  So the OD rating was based on that.  Before their first regatta they all had nice plastic sails and much larger spinnakers.  How many seconds per mile do you think those sails were worth?  If you say less than six you are not being truthful.  As soon as the OD spec changed from the shit sails to the plastic sails the OD rating should have been hit.   PHRF did nothing.

The FT10 originally had a joke of a rudder.  A heavy, unbalanced, flexing, self-destructing joke.  They couldn’t tight reach in any breeze without the rudder stalling out or the cassette exploding.  The boats replaced these jokes with carbon blades that are a much better shape with built in balance that the originals did not have and weigh about half what the original weighed.  How many seconds per mile do you think that is worth?  Ask Steve Washburn what he was hit for a new rudder on his B25 that was much less of an improvement.  That should have rung up at least three seconds for the class OD rating.  The PHRF fools looked at it and somehow determined it was a wash.  Conned again.

The FT10, as originally rated in OD configuration by PHRF, could not fair the bottom.  So that was taken into account in the rating.  It wasn’t long before some boats had high end bottom jobs.  The class let them sail anyway.  They were no longer in OD trim as originally rated.  Why would an owner spend all the money to do a bottom job if it didn’t make the boat faster?  As soon as the class allowed the boats to be faired PHRF should have hit the OD rating.  A faired OD FT10 was now faster than an unfaired OD FT10 had been.  Crickets.

When Con Men look for marks they don’t look for the smart guys to work over.  They look for the self-important, very stable geniuses.  They need look no farther than the monthly PHRF SoCal Board Meeting.  The FT10 Group initially worked those fools with their stories of their low cost family racer, then made changes to their OD Rules to make the boats significantly faster and got zero hits from PHRF.

They also had losers like Balls-On-Chin sailing around at the back of the PHRF fleet for years saving the rating.  Conned, conned, conned, and owned.  Shooting fish in a barrel.

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On 10/7/2018 at 3:09 PM, DryArmour said:

It had to be the awesome crew apparel...

Nothing can take less long

than a Pink Dry Thong

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On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:40 PM, Meat Wad said:

 the toilet of PHRF.

Oh no, I’ve disparaged PHRF of SoCal and members of the Regional Board.  I’ve broken Rule 1.4a from the 2018 Class Rules.  They are now checking my profile.  Christ, you fools should have caught a clue when you deemed it necessary to put that rule into place.  You wouldn’t have so many people disparaging you if you weren’t such useless wankers.

You PHRF dummies were played.  It was classic Bait and Switch, and it was planned.  The FT10 folks acted out their sob story about the poor little boat that could.  You clownfish went hook, line, and sinker.  Conned and owned.

 

The SoCal Board fiddles with Corinthian Class bullshit while PHRF burns.  

Instead of spending a majority of your time wringing your hands about how much time a Corinthian Class boat should get for their anchor chain, maybe you should spend your time getting the ratings of real raceboats right.  

You should look at the length, weight, sail area, and downwind rating for the Henderson 30 and wonder why it rates 27 while the FT10 rates 42.  Maybe compare all the similar boats in your database and try to get them aligned?

Naw, just keep attending the monthly meetings for that free meal and pretend you are doing something important.

 

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5 hours ago, AlR said:

Oh no, I’ve disparaged PHRF of SoCal and members of the Regional Board.  I’ve broken Rule 1.4a from the 2018 Class Rules.  They are now checking my profile.  Christ, you fools should have caught a clue when you deemed it necessary to put that rule into place.  You wouldn’t have so many people disparaging you if you weren’t such useless wankers.

You PHRF dummies were played.  It was classic Bait and Switch, and it was planned.  The FT10 folks acted out their sob story about the poor little boat that could.  You clownfish went hook, line, and sinker.  Conned and owned.

 

The SoCal Board fiddles with Corinthian Class bullshit while PHRF burns.  

Instead of spending a majority of your time wringing your hands about how much time a Corinthian Class boat should get for their anchor chain, maybe you should spend your time getting the ratings of real raceboats right.  

You should look at the length, weight, sail area, and downwind rating for the Henderson 30 and wonder why it rates 27 while the FT10 rates 42.  Maybe compare all the similar boats in your database and try to get them aligned?

Naw, just keep attending the monthly meetings for that free meal and pretend you are doing something important.

 

Alternatively, where is it written that a group of people can’t create their own observed performance rating rule? That is essentially what SDYC does with Bruce Nelson doing the handicapping for hot rum.

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8 hours ago, AlR said:

Oh no, I’ve disparaged PHRF of SoCal and members of the Regional Board.  I’ve broken Rule 1.4a from the 2018 Class Rules.  They are now checking my profile.  Christ, you fools should have caught a clue when you deemed it necessary to put that rule into place.  You wouldn’t have so many people disparaging you if you weren’t such useless wankers.

You PHRF dummies were played.  It was classic Bait and Switch, and it was planned.  The FT10 folks acted out their sob story about the poor little boat that could.  You clownfish went hook, line, and sinker.  Conned and owned.

 

The SoCal Board fiddles with Corinthian Class bullshit while PHRF burns.  

Instead of spending a majority of your time wringing your hands about how much time a Corinthian Class boat should get for their anchor chain, maybe you should spend your time getting the ratings of real raceboats right.  

You should look at the length, weight, sail area, and downwind rating for the Henderson 30 and wonder why it rates 27 while the FT10 rates 42.  Maybe compare all the similar boats in your database and try to get them aligned?

Naw, just keep attending the monthly meetings for that free meal and pretend you are doing something important.

 

You can listen into their meeting.

http://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/RegionalMeetingsArchive/2018/la.pdf

 

Via Teleconference:
Please join the SoCal PHRF Meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone by going to

https://www.gotomeet.me/PHRFSoCal

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I have no dog in this particular fight but everything AIR has said rings true with my experiences with PHRF.  

 

If you want to win in PHRF, buy the most popular boat so that they will keep your rating anchored, and then prep the shit out of it, ala Dennis Conner.  But you will probably be sailing a boat that doesn't make you happy.  

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On 10/13/2018 at 11:40 AM, AlR said:

No idea WHO fucked it up?

PHRF SoCal has been a clown car for at least the past 20 years, populated by hacks and losers.  Mr. Wad, if you sit in one of those monthly meetings and can’t identify they are hacks and losers, you are one of them.

If a boat had been presented to PHRF with the same dimensions as the FT10 and the designer was listed as Farr or R/P the rating would have been different.  You know it, I know it, PHRF knows it.  So the thing started out with a gift rating, especially downwind.  It didn't hurt to have a couple of the board members considering purchases of FT10s when the rating was given.

The FT10 was originally presented to PHRF with an OD trim that included shitty single source one design sails and undersized spinnakers.  This was going to be a cheap mom-and-pop class.  So the OD rating was based on that.  Before their first regatta they all had nice plastic sails and much larger spinnakers.  How many seconds per mile do you think those sails were worth?  If you say less than six you are not being truthful.  As soon as the OD spec changed from the shit sails to the plastic sails the OD rating should have been hit.   PHRF did nothing.

The FT10 originally had a joke of a rudder.  A heavy, unbalanced, flexing, self-destructing joke.  They couldn’t tight reach in any breeze without the rudder stalling out or the cassette exploding.  The boats replaced these jokes with carbon blades that are a much better shape with built in balance that the originals did not have and weigh about half what the original weighed.  How many seconds per mile do you think that is worth?  Ask Steve Washburn what he was hit for a new rudder on his B25 that was much less of an improvement.  That should have rung up at least three seconds for the class OD rating.  The PHRF fools looked at it and somehow determined it was a wash.  Conned again.

The FT10, as originally rated in OD configuration by PHRF, could not fair the bottom.  So that was taken into account in the rating.  It wasn’t long before some boats had high end bottom jobs.  The class let them sail anyway.  They were no longer in OD trim as originally rated.  Why would an owner spend all the money to do a bottom job if it didn’t make the boat faster?  As soon as the class allowed the boats to be faired PHRF should have hit the OD rating.  A faired OD FT10 was now faster than an unfaired OD FT10 had been.  Crickets.

When Con Men look for marks they don’t look for the smart guys to work over.  They look for the self-important, very stable geniuses.  They need look no farther than the monthly PHRF SoCal Board Meeting.  The FT10 Group initially worked those fools with their stories of their low cost family racer, then made changes to their OD Rules to make the boats significantly faster and got zero hits from PHRF.

They also had losers like Balls-On-Chin sailing around at the back of the PHRF fleet for years saving the rating.  Conned, conned, conned, and owned.  Shooting fish in a barrel.

 

12 hours ago, AlR said:

Oh no, I’ve disparaged PHRF of SoCal and members of the Regional Board.  I’ve broken Rule 1.4a from the 2018 Class Rules.  They are now checking my profile.  Christ, you fools should have caught a clue when you deemed it necessary to put that rule into place.  You wouldn’t have so many people disparaging you if you weren’t such useless wankers.

You PHRF dummies were played.  It was classic Bait and Switch, and it was planned.  The FT10 folks acted out their sob story about the poor little boat that could.  You clownfish went hook, line, and sinker.  Conned and owned.

 

The SoCal Board fiddles with Corinthian Class bullshit while PHRF burns.  

Instead of spending a majority of your time wringing your hands about how much time a Corinthian Class boat should get for their anchor chain, maybe you should spend your time getting the ratings of real raceboats right.  

You should look at the length, weight, sail area, and downwind rating for the Henderson 30 and wonder why it rates 27 while the FT10 rates 42.  Maybe compare all the similar boats in your database and try to get them aligned?

Naw, just keep attending the monthly meetings for that free meal and pretend you are doing something important.

 

I was never involved in PHRF years back but I do know a few bad players from Area A.
One of the huge problems is the Chief Handicapper has no requirements for the job. IMHO, this should be a part time PAYING, maybe a stipend, position.

In my time on the Local and Regional Board, It is apparent to me that Sport Boats and boats that have negative ratings are issues. They are so fast on certain points of sail they are almost unrateable by PHRF. I would like to see PHRF use ORR Certs more closely. But they use wind ranges and PHRF does not, though they should.

As for Rudders, I do not think boats should take hits for fixing a design flaw. The rudder on my boat has the same issue as the early FT10 rudder on a reach.
Personally, I think we should be encouraging owners to spend money on making their boats better and safer and not hit them.

The Corinthian BS is just that BS. 25 % of the fleet is Corinthian and they are getting focus instead of the other 75%. Not good policy.

Is your local board or Regional board looking at your Cert? If you are in the SD area, They have separated from SO Cal Regional and are doing their own thing.

And lastly, I am not the problem. As the new guy on the board, I've been local for 3 but going to the regional meetings for 2 years, My requests are routinely ignored probably because I am from the smallest area in SO Cal Regional and we are so far away and have no money boats, we are nothing. I have pointed out many issues and they always seem to get sidelined. It is impossible to do a database search with multiple criteria because of the proprietary system they use. They do not use any of the modern tools available and I am just about done with sailing after this experience.

Frankly, I am frustrated and do not know what to do with the entrenched that have been there of 5 to 10+ years.

If you are pissed, you have to get involved.

  

4 hours ago, VWAP said:

You can listen into their meeting.

http://www.phrfsocal.org/wp-content/uploads/RegionalMeetingsArchive/2018/la.pdf

 

Via Teleconference:
Please join the SoCal PHRF Meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone by going to

https://www.gotomeet.me/PHRFSoCal

The meeting is tonight.

If you log in you must announce yourself.

The Regional meeting is tonight and I will let our tech person know there may be listeners..
We mute when in deliberations.

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

One of the huge problems is the Chief Handicapper has no requirements for the job. IMHO, this should be a part time PAYING, maybe a stipend, position.

As for Rudders, I do not think boats should take hits for fixing a design flaw. The rudder on my boat has the same issue as the early FT10 rudder on a reach.

Frankly, I am frustrated and do not know what to do with the entrenched that have been there of 5 to 10+ years.

If you are pissed, you have to get involved.

 

Chief Handicapper.  What a larf, year in, year out, for 20+ years.  Troll a net across the back end of the racing fleet and find yourself a Chief Handicapper.

If you fix a design flaw and it makes the boat faster around the racecourse it needs a hit.  PHRF looked at the FT10 owners spending $4K for new rudders that had a different planform than the original and decided it deserved no hit.  They sure did hit other people for rudders that didn't add as much performance.  JFC, what inept losers.

The entrenched do not want competent people becoming involved.  Their clique has been in charge for 20+ years.  They are such losers on the race course this is their chance to be the big dogs in the world of sailing.  "Respect My Authority!"  It is pretty pathetic.  They won't even listen to someone like you.

 

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9 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

I was never involved in PHRF years back but I do know a few bad players from Area A.
One of the huge problems is the Chief Handicapper has no requirements for the job. IMHO, this should be a part time PAYING, maybe a stipend, position.

In my time on the Local and Regional Board, It is apparent to me that Sport Boats and boats that have negative ratings are issues. They are so fast on certain points of sail they are almost unrateable by PHRF. I would like to see PHRF use ORR Certs more closely. But they use wind ranges and PHRF does not, though they should.

As for Rudders, I do not think boats should take hits for fixing a design flaw. The rudder on my boat has the same issue as the early FT10 rudder on a reach.
Personally, I think we should be encouraging owners to spend money on making their boats better and safer and not hit them.

The Corinthian BS is just that BS. 25 % of the fleet is Corinthian and they are getting focus instead of the other 75%. Not good policy.

Is your local board or Regional board looking at your Cert? If you are in the SD area, They have separated from SO Cal Regional and are doing their own thing.

And lastly, I am not the problem. As the new guy on the board, I've been local for 3 but going to the regional meetings for 2 years, My requests are routinely ignored probably because I am from the smallest area in SO Cal Regional and we are so far away and have no money boats, we are nothing. I have pointed out many issues and they always seem to get sidelined. It is impossible to do a database search with multiple criteria because of the proprietary system they use. They do not use any of the modern tools available and I am just about done with sailing after this experience.

Frankly, I am frustrated and do not know what to do with the entrenched that have been there of 5 to 10+ years.

If you are pissed, you have to get involved.

  

The meeting is tonight.

If you log in you must announce yourself.

The Regional meeting is tonight and I will let our tech person know there may be listeners..
We mute when in deliberations.

any report of your meeting?

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On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:55 AM, Editor said:

Thanks Bob! God damn do I love this boat!

...I drift on and off of SA so I apologize if I missed the Press Release but I thought you started with a FT10 then got a M32, then very recently sold it and got a mini/vintage Santa Cruise something (SC 30? if there is such a thing?). You are back to an FT10 now? When did that happen? Was the SC a flop? I suppose if the FT10 is called SA4 my above math is correct...

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The SC33 was always a flop. Freight Train did OK when it was the brand new scratch boat of the Ventura/Oxnard fleet. That dog don't hunt. Scot was trying to relive his 20s with that boat.

Back on topic: Yeah! The FT10 did GREAT in the Little Ensenada Race!

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2 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

...I drift on and off of SA so I apologize if I missed the Press Release but I thought you started with a FT10 then got a M32, then very recently sold it and got a mini/vintage Santa Cruise something (SC 30? if there is such a thing?). You are back to an FT10 now? When did that happen? Was the SC a flop? I suppose if the FT10 is called SA4 my above math is correct...

After abilities were exposed, he scurried back to a PHRF cupcake. 

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On 10/16/2018 at 8:30 PM, VWAP said:

any report of your meeting?

Well, yes there was a point that I was taken back by.
I am conferring with our Judge advocate and someone else.

I feel that something wrong has been done and it may have an impact on everyone in PHRF.

stay tuned.

 

PS, I got involved in Regional so I could make an impact. This may be my opp.........I hope so.

 

On 10/17/2018 at 3:52 PM, Somebody Else said:

The SC33 was always a flop. Freight Train did OK when it was the brand new scratch boat of the Ventura/Oxnard fleet. That dog don't hunt. Scot was trying to relive his 20s with that boat.

Back on topic: Yeah! The FT10 did GREAT in the Little Ensenada Race!

The SC33 was a good boat in it''s condition, light air.
I took care of Sid Johnson's "Fire Lock" for a while. Sid who has passed was a gun collector. The Fire Lock was the forerunner to the Flint Lock.

If you have never had the op to take care of a boat of someone who is a collector of anything, you should.

The SC33 was an aberration and should be treated as such.

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

Well, yes there was a point that I was taken back by.
I am conferring with our Judge advocate and someone else.

I feel that something wrong has been done and it may have an impact on everyone in PHRF.

stay tuned.

 

PS, I got involved in Regional so I could make an impact. This may be my opp.........I hope so.

 

The SC33 was a good boat in it''s condition, light air.
I took care of Sid Johnson's "Fire Lock" for a while. Sid who has passed was a gun collector. The Fire Lock was the forerunner to the Flint Lock.

If you have never had the op to take care of a boat of someone who is a collector of anything, you should.

The SC33 was an aberration and should be treated as such.

Are you going to be on the regional board?

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On 10/19/2018 at 8:58 PM, VWAP said:

Are you going to be on the regional board?

According to the By Laws, I have 1 more year as long as I am paying my PHRF fee.

I am in the process of writhing my communication, gotta have things right, and I will try to let you guys know the jest without being too overt.

Good???

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On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 8:30 PM, VWAP said:

any report of your meeting?

A useful report?  Never.  Even the useless minutes are not posted two weeks after the meeting.

The PHRFools make sure there is an info blackout of their little games.  If you listened into the meeting you know that during their "deliberations" they mute the phone.  This lets them say any crazy thoughts that pop into their head to punish those they want to punish.  An owner needs to walk in with piles of data, that is usually not understood or simply ignored by most of the board.  But for the secret deliberations the board members need no backup data for anything they want to claim.  It is astounding the crap they are allowed to say and do in their meetings, always behind the backs of the dues paying members.

Things would be very different if PHRF had to look owners in the eye while deliberating.  They would not be able to just make shit up and have decisions made based on things said that the owner has no knowledge of, and has no opportunity to refute.

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6 hours ago, AlR said:

A useful report?  Never.  Even the useless minutes are not posted two weeks after the meeting.

The PHRFools make sure there is an info blackout of their little games.  If you listened into the meeting you know that during their "deliberations" they mute the phone.  This lets them say any crazy thoughts that pop into their head to punish those they want to punish.  An owner needs to walk in with piles of data, that is usually not understood or simply ignored by most of the board.  But for the secret deliberations the board members need no backup data for anything they want to claim.  It is astounding the crap they are allowed to say and do in their meetings, always behind the backs of the dues paying members.

Things would be very different if PHRF had to look owners in the eye while deliberating.  They would not be able to just make shit up and have decisions made based on things said that the owner has no knowledge of, and has no opportunity to refute.

Do they deliberate in secret when they rate their own boats ?

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Do they deliberate in secret when they rate their own boats ?

You would think individual board members would recuse themselves when rating their own boats, or the boats that they see as their primary competition.  Wouldn't that be prudent?

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nobody does anything for nothing

 

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16 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

You'd think but you'd be wrong.

 

You don't say!  Heavens to Betsy!

Are you saying that people who had deposits on FT10s actually had something to do with the original PHRF rating of the FT10?  And people who owned FT10s had influence over the decisions to change/not change the rating?

Surely you jest!

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My cousin has told stories

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6 hours ago, VWAP said:

My cousin has told stories

Did your cousin join the SoCal PHRF Board because he is an a-hole, or did he become and a-hole because he is on the board?  Or is he a she?

PHRF has a study done by Jim Teeters showing the FT10 has a gift rating.  This document was given to PHRF by a former and current FT10 owner who knew the boat had a gift rating from his experience sailing it and told PHRF.  Do you think your cousin and the rest of the fools will do anything about it?

Should the minutes from the monthly PHRF Board Meetings show what each person ordered from the LBYC menu?  What does your cousin usually order?

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8 hours ago, AlR said:

Did your cousin join the SoCal PHRF Board because he is an a-hole, or did he become and a-hole because he is on the board?  Or is he a she?

PHRF has a study done by Jim Teeters showing the FT10 has a gift rating.  This document was given to PHRF by a former and current FT10 owner who knew the boat had a gift rating from his experience sailing it and told PHRF.  Do you think your cousin and the rest of the fools will do anything about it?

Should the minutes from the monthly PHRF Board Meetings show what each person ordered from the LBYC menu?  What does your cousin usually order?

No my cousin is not on the board. He has complained about board members getting unwarranted local adjustments for their boats 

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On 11/3/2018 at 10:21 PM, AlR said:

 

PHRF has a study done by Jim Teeters showing the FT10 has a gift rating. 

The Ft10 in our area is on the hard because it get it's ass kicked whenever it launches.

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On 10/16/2018 at 8:30 PM, VWAP said:

any report of your meeting?

On 11/2/2018 at 12:44 PM, AlR said:

A useful report?  Never.  Even the useless minutes are not posted two weeks after the meeting.

The PHRFools make sure there is an info blackout of their little games.  If you listened into the meeting you know that during their "deliberations" they mute the phone.  This lets them say any crazy thoughts that pop into their head to punish those they want to punish.  An owner needs to walk in with piles of data, that is usually not understood or simply ignored by most of the board.  But for the secret deliberations the board members need no backup data for anything they want to claim.  It is astounding the crap they are allowed to say and do in their meetings, always behind the backs of the dues paying members.

Things would be very different if PHRF had to look owners in the eye while deliberating.  They would not be able to just make shit up and have decisions made based on things said that the owner has no knowledge of, and has no opportunity to refute.

 

Are you ever privy to any other legal deliberations?

There are many things discussed about individual boats and the owners/skippers, results. We also have others who are called advisers (professionals in the business of Yachting or racing) who make comments, some of which I question seriously.

You guys have no idea how much some of us question the Status Quo.

Some of you sound like Scot, a disgruntled A-Hole who knows only what you have heard or are unwilling to be part of.

I cannot wait to sell my boat and leave this wasteland behind. Some of you are all a bunch of A-holes.

In fact you are a bunch of A-Holes with too much money to waste on a stupid sport, that no cares about.

 

I'm done.

 

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5 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

The Ft10 in our area is on the hard because it get it's ass kicked whenever it launches.

they should ask for a crew rating adjustment 

rating to the potential of the boat is cruel to those who will never see it

&/or rides not prepared an maintained to specifications 

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22 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

 

Are you ever privy to any other legal deliberations?

There are many things discussed about individual boats and the owners/skippers, results. We also have others who are called advisers (professionals in the business of Yachting or racing) who make comments, some of which I question seriously.

You guys have no idea how much some of us question the Status Quo.

Some of you sound like Scot, a disgruntled A-Hole who knows only what you have heard or are unwilling to be part of.

I cannot wait to sell my boat and leave this wasteland behind. Some of you are all a bunch of A-holes.

In fact you are a bunch of A-Holes with too much money to waste on a stupid sport, that no cares about.

 

I'm done.

 

Legal Deliberations?  Don't you see the problem with the PHRFool mindset if that is what you think?  FYI, in a court of law all the evidence is given, by both sides, in open court, and can be cross examined.  You PHRFools have the evidence of the owner in the open, and keep your evidence secret.  Everyone knows why.

 

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22 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

The Ft10 in our area is on the hard because it get it's ass kicked whenever it launches.

The PHRF SoCal rulebook says you rate the boat not the sailors.  Just because guys like Balls-on-Chin sail their FT10 at the speed of a J24 does not mean it should rate like a J24.

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On 10/21/2018 at 6:44 PM, Meat Wad said:

According to the By Laws, I have 1 more year as long as I am paying my PHRF fee.

I am in the process of writhing my communication, gotta have things right, and I will try to let you guys know the jest without being too overt.

Good???

Well?

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20 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

This, except I always measure back from the  headstay fitting and mark the deck with a grease pencil to give me the spot to pull the halyard to when I check for column. Stanchions and other fixed deck marking may or may not be symmetrical... YMMV :)

There is always that symmetrical thing going on.....eyeballing it after you measure a couple of times and if it looks straight and you turn on tension equally the rig should maintain straightness.  In theory and if not...a few of the things posted above need to be checked off the list.  

 

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On 11/6/2018 at 2:51 PM, AlR said:

Legal Deliberations?  Don't you see the problem with the PHRFool mindset if that is what you think?  FYI, in a court of law all the evidence is given, by both sides, in open court, and can be cross examined.  You PHRFools have the evidence of the owner in the open, and keep your evidence secret.  Everyone knows why.

 

Thank you for calling us fools. Some are and some are not. I started racing at the tender age of 15 in 1973,  Yacht clubs were much different back then.

We used to call it Pretty Hooky Rating Fleet or People Handicapping Rating Fleet.

We allow all people who appear, whether for or against a boats rating adjustment to present data and argue their point, for or against. All is said in front of each other and after all has been said. We, the Board, Deliberate because we have many things to discuss just like a Jury in a trial.

Is the problem, your area?
I have no idea what area of the US you guys are from. My experience may be different than yours.

19 hours ago, VWAP said:

Well?

Well, I have not heard back yet.
I really do believe an Injustice has been done and am pleading my thoughts privately now with the Judge Advocate.
The next So Cal Regional Meeting is not really a meeting. It is the Annual meeting and they will give out trophies and introduce the 2019 board.

I'm not happy, as a sailor and I will divulge my complaint if nothing gets addressed. It could have National repercussions.

 

On 11/6/2018 at 2:53 PM, AlR said:

The PHRF SoCal rulebook says you rate the boat not the sailors.  Just because guys like Balls-on-Chin sail their FT10 at the speed of a J24 does not mean it should rate like a J24.

I hear ya. I have also been told that PHRF is a Performance Rating System. A very professional sailor discussed this with me. and I was very surprised.. Do we rate a boat based on the local sailor sailing the boat or how a PRO sails the boat? 
A good example is the old 90's Farr/Mumm 30. The boat was one of the first High Performance boats designed and build for the Pro's. Not many can sail it to it's rating and PHRF is letting them sit because of an old decision based on Pro Sailors sailing the boat. Many Farr 30 sit in So Cal and are for sale, but the boat remains a very good boat. 

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