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Grande Mastere Dreade

the scoring system tiebreaking system sucks balls

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because the pro on our couse is a lazy sob, he only ran 3 w-3's , which were pointless after the first two laps, instead of doing like 5 w-2's..  he just didn't want to have to run that many starts..

anyway,    ended up tied for 3rd and had beat  the other guy two out of three races,  so  3,4,3 for me 4,2,4  for the other guy..  and our great system has him winning the tiebreak  for having a finish higher even though , like I said, beat him 2  out 3 head to head..

to me a head to head should serve as first tiebreak and then move to finishes for second, and then to that ever lovely last race finish.

 

and here's a nice video for listening..

 

494596.gif.454d2b05baf21d405e5043a74e83f028.gif

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I have a shitload of trophies in my basement, email me your address.  Didn't you enter the race with knowledge of the tie breaking algorithm.  Seriously, you really just sound like a whiny bitch.  There's a way to avoid this in the future, beat everyone's ass in each race.  

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You are racing the fleet, not just another competitor.

Pass your suggestions onto World Sailing.

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We just finished our Wed series and missed the next spot by 1 point (less than 1% of total).  Like handicaps there is nothing perfect. You could have won 1 race and tanked the other 2 and been tied and won the tie breaker.  I have been doing this for a really long time and 1) don't criticize the RC committee unless I am willing to help and 2) congratulate the competitors whether I did well or not (unless I really sucked in which case I may just drown my sorrows) and 3) look at what I did well and mistakes made and how I can learn from it. 

I have 3 rules for racing

1. have fun

2. be competitive

3. learn something.

If there is not at least 2 of those (especially if I am crewing) then it's time to make a change.  I learn from my mistakes, my victories, eh, only to realize every dog has his day and ego just gets in the way.

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16 minutes ago, pacice said:

You are racing the fleet, not just another competitor.

Pass your suggestions onto World Sailing.

NOR can change  the scoring system. No need to get World Failing involved 

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20 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

We just finished our Wed series and missed the next spot by 1 point (less than 1% of total).  Like handicaps there is nothing perfect. You could have won 1 race and tanked the other 2 and been tied and won the tie breaker.  I have been doing this for a really long time and 1) don't criticize the RC committee unless I am willing to help and 2) congratulate the competitors whether I did well or not (unless I really sucked in which case I may just drown my sorrows) and 3) look at what I did well and mistakes made and how I can learn from it. 

I have 3 rules for racing

1. have fun

2. be competitive

3. learn something.

If there is not at least 2 of those (especially if I am crewing) then it's time to make a change.  I learn from my mistakes, my victories, eh, only to realize every dog has his day and ego just gets in the way.

fu cal20, you sail a 2ktsb..    trust me I have done my fair share of RC,  I think I've only be PRO like 4 times this year plus the many times i've filled in on mark boats..

i can critisise the pro cause I know he's a lazy ass. .   we waited  1 1/2 hours for the other course boats to get in after our last race. we could have raced more..

 

yeah yeah sail better,   considering this is only the 4rth time in the 15' dighny  my regatta goal was not to come in last place in every race..  goal met..  

 

but to me i still think it's silly to beat a tied competitor head up racing and lose...   it seems to me the tiebreaker was an afterthought after days of long meetings..

 

still had fun racing and that's all that matters.

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Well, yeah I have criticized the RC in those cases. Nothing worse than bobbing around waiting with no good reason. Especially if they are sitting in a nice comfy boat enjoying themselves.  Thinking about it (not something I am competent at) before the last race I try to see who we need to beat and whether we need a boat between us (now that is hard).  Personally I like the who beats who better - eliminates the guy who wins because he took a flyer and did well in one race.  Either way a tie is like kissing your sister (some football coach coined that one).  Really good PROs will have the turning mark or gates far enough up and the finish on the opposite side of the start line to keep things moving.

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Sorry, haven't been on a Cal 20 in 47yrs.  Still a great boat.  

Your title indicates you are angry about the tie breaking procedure.  Ignorance is not a defense.  Seriously, PM me your address and I'll send whatever you want.  Flags, peanut dishes, plaques, your call.  BFFS, quit whining.  

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4 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Cal20 - what about a Mount Gay hat? oops, wrong thread.  :D

Sure, PM your address.  Probably will be a Chi-Mac.

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

Sure, PM your address.  Probably will be a Chi-Mac.

Thanks, but I am good.  Doing busy/paper work and might have started drinking early today. It's a lethal combo to have random thoughts with a buzz......too much time and not enough task that I care for. 

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Eh,  You win some, you lose some.  and you lose more of them than you win,  if you're typical.

I got a bit frosted when I've lost a tie-break that we only had because there were throw-outs and the other guys were tossing a lot more points - but you know what ?  It Just Doesn't Matter.

 

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1 hour ago, Great Red Shark said:

Eh,  You win some, you lose some.  and you lose more of them than you win,  if you're typical.

I got a bit frosted when I've lost a tie-break that we only had because there were throw-outs and the other guys were tossing a lot more points - but you know what ?  It Just Doesn't Matter.

Throwouts are to sailing what a Mulligan is to golf, they have no place.  

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8 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

to me a head to head should serve as first tiebreak and then move to finishes for second, and then to that ever lovely last race 

That does not work if you have 3 boats tied.

Imagine there was another boat at 5,3,2. 3,4,3 only beat him once, but 4,2,4 beat him twice.  If the system was how you suggested, 4.. should be ahead of 5.., who should be ahead of 3..., but then 3... should be ahead of 4...

Our "great system" is actually pretty well thought out.

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19 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

because the pro on our couse is a lazy sob, he only ran 3 w-3's , which were pointless after the first two laps, instead of doing like 5 w-2's..  he just didn't want to have to run that many starts..

anyway,    ended up tied for 3rd and had beat  the other guy two out of three races,  so  3,4,3 for me 4,2,4  for the other guy..  and our great system has him winning the tiebreak  for having a finish higher even though , like I said, beat him 2  out 3 head to head..

to me a head to head should serve as first tiebreak and then move to finishes for second, and then to that ever lovely last race finish.

 

and here's a nice video for listening..

 

494596.gif.454d2b05baf21d405e5043a74e83f028.gif

I don't know that the tie-breaking system "sucks balls."

It makes more sense to me to have the boat beating the tied boat in their FIRST race rather than their LAST race, but that could introduce some bias also. ANY system written into the scoring rules would necessarily be imperfect at times.

One of the best regattas I ever had ended in a 3-way tie for first. Since I got a third in the last race, guess where I ended up in the tie-breaker. Still, that was a great series and the only third-place trophy I've kept over the years

FB- Doug

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12 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Throwouts are to sailing what a Mulligan is to golf, they have no place.  

yeah, you should make that known to the J/70 worlds. what where they thinking having a throwout in a 91 boat, 11 race regatta? They're getting soft, I tell ya. Soft!

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12 hours ago, sailor-cfn said:

That does not work if you have 3 boats tied.

Imagine there was another boat at 5,3,2. 3,4,3 only beat him once, but 4,2,4 beat him twice.  If the system was how you suggested, 4.. should be ahead of 5.., who should be ahead of 3..., but then 3... should be ahead of 4...

Our "great system" is actually pretty well thought out.

 

good point...

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't know that the tie-breaking system "sucks balls."

It makes more sense to me to have the boat beating the tied boat in their FIRST race rather than their LAST race, but that could introduce some bias also. ANY system written into the scoring rules would necessarily be imperfect at times.

One of the best regattas I ever had ended in a 3-way tie for first. Since I got a third in the last race, guess where I ended up in the tie-breaker. Still, that was a great series and the only third-place trophy I've kept over the years

FB- Doug

 

ditto, last year in a four boat round robin fleet championship we all ended up tied..   yeah, guess who got fourth...  I had the 2nd tiebreaker wrapped up with a 1st in the last race but we never got that far..   

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Quote

 

A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be used.

A8.2 If a tie remains between two or more boats, they shall be ranked in order of their scores in the last race. Any remaining ties shall be broken by using the tied boats’ scores in the next-to-last race and so on until all ties are broken. These scores shall be used even if some of them are excluded scores.

 

So you stated that you finished  3,4,3 and the other boat finished 4,2,4.

So according to the RRS that would be 

you: 3, 3 , 4

them: 2, 4, 4

This means that the 4s are discarded. Then at the next point, you are still tied. So you throw out the 4 & 3. Finally his second wins. I don't think this was an oversight by those writing the rules. It was designed to determine a tie breaker over a series. If you just said "whoever wins the last race", it would completely discredit the entire series.

 

1 hour ago, ryley said:

Throwouts are to sailing what a Mulligan is to golf, they have no place.

I disagree with this. For a dedicated Regatta, yes discards are rediculous. However for a long club series spread out over weeks, this is a very reasonbale thing to implement. Have you ever been in a situation where you suddenly couldn't race because you daughter broke her leg at softball pratice and your wife is at the ER freaking out! Yea, stuff like this happens and this is the idea behind discards (in my opinion). 

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btw, that wasn't me who said that about throwouts, it was cal20sailor. I agree with Jubblies on this one.

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1 minute ago, ryley said:

btw, that wasn't me who said that about throwouts, it was cal20sailor. I agree with Jubblies on this one.

yea, for some reason this is the way it was auto quoted.

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22 minutes ago, Jubblies said:

 

you: 3, 3 , 4

them: 2, 4, 4

This means that the 4s are discarded. Then at the next point, you are still tied. So you throw out the 4 & 3. Finally his second wins. I don't think this was an oversight by those writing the rules. It was designed to determine a tie breaker over a series. If you just said "whoever wins the last race", it would completely discredit the entire series.

 

 

hey don't go all mathematical about it..:D   it's like college football,   you just beat the living hell out of the team ranked ahead of you, then on sunday, the polls come out and you find that team  ranked just ahead of you..  (yeah a subjective analogy)   but the feelings the same , you beat them but sill lose..

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Nothing wrong with the system.  There is however something wrong with your understanding of why it is like it is.   Winning a race is MUCH harder than coming second.  Likewise, coming second is quite a bit  harder than coming third.   To be honest expecting better than second place with a 3, 3, 4 is kinda pathetic.  As mentioned, why not just win all the races so you don't have to bitch here.

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5 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

hey don't go all mathematical about it..:D   it's like college football,   you just beat the living hell out of the team ranked ahead of you, then on sunday, the polls come out and you find that team  ranked just ahead of you..  (yeah a subjective analogy)   but the feelings the same , you beat them but sill lose..

I'm a Buckeye and I get the frustration, however regattas aren't a single game they are a body of work just like college football! In a case like yours, the playoff committee would look at the 2nd place finish and give that priority just like World Sailing has! 

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I've been to the bitter end of this. 4-race series. Finished tied on points. Tied on best finishes. Tied on 2nd-best finishes. Tied on 3-rd best finishes. He beat me 2-3 in the last race and took the spot. Sailboat racing.

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On 10/8/2018 at 1:59 PM, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

because the pro on our couse is a lazy sob, he only ran 3 w-3's , which were pointless after the first two laps, instead of doing like 5 w-2's..  he just didn't want to have to run that many starts..

anyway,    ended up tied for 3rd and had beat  the other guy two out of three races,  so  3,4,3 for me 4,2,4  for the other guy..  and our great system has him winning the tiebreak  for having a finish higher even though , like I said, beat him 2  out 3 head to head..

to me a head to head should serve as first tiebreak and then move to finishes for second, and then to that ever lovely last race finish.

 

and here's a nice video for listening..

 

494596.gif.454d2b05baf21d405e5043a74e83f028.gif

Seriously?  You are that upset about loosing out on a 3rd place?  Wow

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On 10/8/2018 at 12:47 PM, d'ranger said:

We just finished our Wed series and missed the next spot by 1 point (less than 1% of total).  Like handicaps there is nothing perfect. You could have won 1 race and tanked the other 2 and been tied and won the tie breaker.  I have been doing this for a really long time and 1) don't criticize the RC committee unless I am willing to help and 2) congratulate the competitors whether I did well or not (unless I really sucked in which case I may just drown my sorrows) and 3) look at what I did well and mistakes made and how I can learn from it. 

I have 3 rules for racing

1. have fun

2. be competitive

3. learn something.

If there is not at least 2 of those (especially if I am crewing) then it's time to make a change.  I learn from my mistakes, my victories, eh, only to realize every dog has his day and ego just gets in the way.

Yep 

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On 10/8/2018 at 4:02 PM, Great Red Shark said:

Eh,  You win some, you lose some.  and you lose more of them than you win,  if you're typical.

I got a bit frosted when I've lost a tie-break that we only had because there were throw-outs and the other guys were tossing a lot more points - but you know what ?  It Just Doesn't Matter.

 

+1

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1 hour ago, Christian said:

Seriously?  You are that upset about loosing out on a 3rd place?  Wow

Lmfao

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:51 AM, 2savage said:

Nothing wrong with the system.  There is however something wrong with your understanding of why it is like it is.   Winning a race is MUCH harder than coming second.  Likewise, coming second is quite a bit  harder than coming third.   To be honest expecting better than second place with a 3, 3, 4 is kinda pathetic.  As mentioned, why not just win all the races so you don't have to bitch here.

where in this thread do you see where I was talking about 2nd?   I was tied for 3rd and ended up 4th...      please take all this as tongue in cheek ..  it is what it is and I have long accepted it as have run into the tiebreaker more than once..      but you know  it's always nice to discuss these things as you may never know , there might be a genius out there with a great idea ( in this forum, ha!)   great ideas have to start somewhere .. and concerning throat-wobbler-mangroving, that idea might as well start here.

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On 10/8/2018 at 1:42 PM, d'ranger said:

Cal20 - what about a Mount Gay hat? oops, wrong thread.  :D

Only if they come in pink 

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8 hours ago, jtm said:

How about just have a tie?

Could do, but part of the fun is making sure you know going into the last race what the possible outcomes are. Do you take risks or do you stay safe, do you stay with your nearest opponent or do you split, all the decisions you make on any race, but thinking about the regatta result rather than the race result.

Of course if the RC can't split you at the line you can still end up with a tie :). I've seen it in handicap where the corrected times ended up the same.

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18 hours ago, Baldur said:

Only if they come in pink 

that only takes about a season or two until they are.

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I think you only need to look to the front of the fleet to see that the current tie breaker is correct...

1,3,4=8 and

2,3,3=8 but you wouldn't dream of giving the tie breaker to the boat that didn't win a race would you?

 

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49 minutes ago, overdraft said:

I think you only need to look to the front of the fleet to see that the current tie breaker is correct...

1,3,4=8 and

2,3,3=8 but you wouldn't dream of giving the tie breaker to the boat that didn't win a race would you?

 

in your case  the boats are tied head up, then it would be a second tiebreaker, which would be finishes in my opinion..

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OK, I get what you're saying... hmmm... I still think if you move to the front the logic is more visible.

Boat A 1,5,6,7,8 =27 Beats B twice

Boat B 3,6,5,6,7 =27 Beats A 3 times

So you think boat B should win for more beats instead of A for the only win between them?

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On 10/9/2018 at 10:22 AM, Jubblies said:

 

So you stated that you finished  3,4,3 and the other boat finished 4,2,4.

So according to the RRS that would be 

you: 3, 3 , 4

them: 2, 4, 4

This means that the 4s are discarded. Then at the next point, you are still tied.

What? No, that's not how it works.

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