We are Rimas!

Corsair Trimaran

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Hi Multihullers,

I have found myself in the market for a daysailer.  I initially was looking at a J/70, but now have my sights on a 24ft(negotiable) Corsair trimaran.  This is a boat i will primarily be keeping on a trailer or in a slip at a fresh water marina.   I would likely be using the boat on weekends during the day, sailing in 10-20kts of wind. I would mostly be sailing with my two boys, 10 and 15 years old and my non-sailing wife. I have a trawler , so if I took it out overnight, it would likely be in tow and not needed for sleeping arrangements.

So i have 2 questions;

1)Is there any reason a Corsair would not be a good choice boat for us?

2) Should i avoid a newer used boat? ie 2012,2015,2014 I get that production changed somewhere along the line, and i see some older boats priced the same or more than newer boats..Could someone explain this to me?

This is what i am using for reference

https://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?slim=quick&sm=3&currencyid=100&searchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&luom=126&N=899&Ntt=corsair

 

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/cgi-bin/saildata/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&ID=*&manufacturer=Corsair&sb=5&so=ascend

Thank you for your comments!

-Scott

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1)  There is every reason to believe that this is a good choice for your needs.  That being said, it might be problematic to tow the boat behind a trawler since it is so light.  My experience with towing a trimaran is that it is easier to side tie than tow behind.  

2)  Production did change (moved to Viet Nam, I think, from San Diego) but there's no reason to avoid any particular production batch.  The pricing differences you see is likely due to demand...Corsairs tend to hold their value and prices tend to clump regardless of year build.  Unfortunately, though, there aren't good marine surveyors for multihulls (speaking generally) so you should do a thorough inspection or find someone near you that owns a Corsair to help you inspect it.  As far as I know, no one has complained about Corsair build quality...if anything, the complaints go the other way related to overengineering and heavy for the size.  

If you are not planning on racing the boat, any used one will do...if however, you plan on racing, you should get it weighed prior to purchase.  

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I have a single experience towing an F-boat, it was Kim Alfred's Cheekee Monkee (F31 modified to beyond recognition) behind his 50' powerboat and there were zero issues.  We probably were doing 12-15kts and the tri tracked well.  

I had an F27 for 6 yrs and loved the boat.  It's significantly bigger/faster than the 24's but easily single handed.  You can't go wrong and your kids will get hooked.  

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Thanks for the replies. We are based near sfbay and there seem to be a good selection of boats available.  Do any of you any experience with Gary Helm?

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10 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

Thanks for the replies. We are based near sfbay and there seem to be a good selection of boats available.  Do any of you any experience with Gary Helm?

Gary has been selling Corsairs for a very long time (I bought my F242 from him in 1998).  Not a pushy salesman type and knows the boats well.  His used boats are consignment sales or trade-ins mostly.  Ensure you inspect carefully; lots of fboat sailors in the Bay who can help you inspect and who know what to look for.  Join the BAMA forum and repost the questions you have; all the fboat sailors will chime in.  https://sfbama.groups.io/g/BAMA/topics

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There is a forum for Fboats: https://fct.groups.io/g/main/topics  It archives and replaces the abandoned Yahoo group that was getting less and less functional.  You have to join but that shouldn't be a problem.  Some like the boats prior to Ian Farrier leaving Corsair in about 2001.  I have heard he was a stickler for following the design and manufacturing method when he was there.  BAMA and Helms or Leneman should set you straight. 

Take it easy with your non-sailing wife and/or kids, unless they are thrill seekers.  These can be scary fast boats and it takes a while to get comfortable.  Start by reefing early and often, they will still go plenty fast.  I got a cheap, old, hank on F27 jib, <$100, for my F31 that I use for higher winds when I double reef the main.  I drop the big jib, tie it down, (tie down lines are permanently rigged), and set the smaller one above it using a ~2' tack strop.  Move the jib cars a bit and away I go.  Easy peasy.  It makes the boat settle down nicely.

The Farrier web site had a thorough guide to inspecting used boats.  I imagine it is still there, after his untimely death last year, RIP.

Good hunting.   Every single time you go out you will have; a smile on your face, (at the least, if not hooting and hollering), and thankfulness in your heart to Farrier and Walton for making fast trimarans so available. 

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46 minutes ago, LionIsland said:

J-70 to F-24.

Excellent decision.  

All pluses no minuses. 

Keeping it in a slip might be a minus.  Other folding systems are much better if you aren't dry sailing the boat or keeping it unfoldered.

Much more fun to sail.

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48 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Keeping it in a slip might be a minus.  Other folding systems are much better if you aren't dry sailing the boat or keeping it unfoldered.

Thank you for the comment. Could you elaborate so I can understand?

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2 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Keeping it in a slip might be a minus.  Other folding systems are much better if you aren't dry sailing the boat or keeping it unfoldered.

Can’t see that being an issue. Sooo many options. 

Unfolded with mast up and tethered to dock=extremely stable. 

Too wide? How about: One side folded, mast up, tethered to dock= very very stable. 

Single pen but expecting a thousand knots then: One side folded, mast down (not much overhang as f-24 mast is not real long)=very very very very stable. 

If super skinny (monohull sized) pen and expecting a thousand knots: Fully folded with mast down, tethered to dock = absolute stability. 

Or keep it on the trailer at the sailing club folded (or not) with mast up (or not). And tethered to the ground or a concrete block. Like RQ does in Queensland. 

Or just pack it up after sailing and take it home and put in the garage or your yard or on the street . I/2 hour rig up and derig at each end when you’ve got the systems all sorted. 

Is there a more practical, fun, little boat in the world? Me thinks not. 

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7 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Keeping it in a slip might be a minus.  Other folding systems are much better if you aren't dry sailing the boat or keeping it unfoldered.

Much more fun to sail.

I think f-boats were not born to have fouled bottoms. It takes away a lot of what the boat is. As a friend of mine found out, either you are going to clean the bottom very often, asnyou would if you raced it, or you better keep it dry.

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9 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

Thank you for the comment. Could you elaborate so I can understand?

I think he will point out  the Dragonfly folding system.
https://dragonfly.dk/

They have there disadvantages to, it takes more time to get them on the trailer, the newer DF28 and DF25 can be trailer-ed but still take more time than the Farrier.

 

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Let’s do a comparo. F-24 to Dragonfly 25.

On what criteria? 

Cost, weight, finish, performance, ease and speed of rigging and derigging, accomodation, looks, resale price and likelihood to offload, spares. 

On finish (but they’re Danish aren’t they?) and accomodation you’d be hard pressed not to give the points to DF. By a fair way  

Looks, well that’s subjective. Both are beautiful. 

The rest you’d have to give it to the Corsair, wouldn’t you? Mind you,  I don’t think I’ve seen the two race against each other. But I suspect the Corsair  would blow the DF off. 

DF has a swing centreboard, yes? 

Personally, I like the simplicity, performance and robustness of the Corsair but on reflection there’s a lot going for the DF if that’s your cuppa. 

Hmmm. 

 

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2 hours ago, LionIsland said:

Let’s do a comparo. F-24 to Dragonfly 25.

On what criteria? 

Cost, weight, finish, performance, ease and speed of rigging and derigging, accomodation, looks, resale price and likelihood to offload, spares. 

On finish (but they’re Danish aren’t they?) and accomodation you’d be hard pressed not to give the points to DF. By a fair way  

Looks, well that’s subjective. Both are beautiful. 

The rest you’d have to give it to the Corsair, wouldn’t you? Mind you,  I don’t think I’ve seen the two race against each other. But I suspect the Corsair  would blow the DF off. 

DF has a swing centreboard, yes? 

Personally, I like the simplicity, performance and robustness of the Corsair but on reflection there’s a lot going for the DF if that’s your cuppa. 

Hmmm. 

 

The DF25 is quiker than the C24 because the design is new, you have to compare it with the F22, but I don't think the starter of this discussion is interested in it.

I think he wantes a nice tri on a budget.

I have A F32R in carbon and leave it in the water during the summer season.

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5 hours ago, mowgli said:

The DF25 is quiker than the C24 because the design is new, you have to compare it with the F22, but I don't think the starter of this discussion is interested in it.

I think he wantes a nice tri on a budget.

I have A F32R in carbon and leave it in the water during the summer season.

The DF is faster because it is a new design. 

Interesting logic, that. 

It may be faster. (I still need convincing). It might be a newer design but one doesn’t necessarily follow the other. 

But back to towing. I’d be a little nervous in a following wind and/or a following sea or when tow vessel slows that one’s nice little tri would slam into the arse of the mother ship. 

 

I’ve often wondered if this would keep a pesky dinghy rom bumping into the mothership:-

If one towed said boat (let’s say a trimaran but what ever) with a rope from each side of the transom of the towing vessel (in this case, apparently, a trawler but whatever) and these ropes were lead through PVC conduit or fairly stiff rubber hose would it not then be impossible (or less likely) that the towed vessel would climb onto (aka bash into) the transom of the towing vessel? 

Multithom’s idea of rafting is good but I suspect in a bit of chop and sea things could get a bit crunchy. 

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19 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

Thank you for the comment. Could you elaborate so I can understand?

The sides of the amas will have stuff growing on them if you leave it in water folded.  I guess you could put bottom paint on the sides but it would look terrible and probably ruin the resale value.

To keep it in a slip unfolded requires a slip wide enough for a 50ft monohull.  If you can get an end tie or something like that defintely go for it. 

I would look into some kind of floating dock or boat lift to keep it folded in a slip.  Still cheaper than a Dragonfly.

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1 hour ago, LionIsland said:

Multithom’s idea of rafting is good but I suspect in a bit of chop and sea things could get a bit crunchy

Haven't tried it in a chop but did "tow" rafted up to a ranger tug and I pulled the board up and lashed the rudder a bit off center so the tri wanted to pull away from alongside. Ease the bow line a bit and let the spring take the drag and the fenders basically never touched as long as we were underway, even through a couple of wakes.

In any significant waves you need to tow far behind on a bridle and just make sure you deal with the boat behind when you slow down so you don't get rammed... Having the rudder lashed slightly off center can help with that too, or put a drogue on the towed boat... Many ways to deal with it but some experimentation would be required.

It will tow really easily up to at least 8kt (low drag), and should do up to 16 fine if you have the power and properly sized towing gear (there's a bit of a wall around 18 so I wouldn't really want to exceed that as it might start to strain things a bit).

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11 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

The sides of the amas will have stuff growing on them if you leave it in water folded.  I guess you could put bottom paint on the sides but it would look terrible and probably ruin the resale value.

To keep it in a slip unfolded requires a slip wide enough for a 50ft monohull.  If you can get an end tie or something like that defintely go for it. 

I would look into some kind of floating dock or boat lift to keep it folded in a slip.  Still cheaper than a Dragonfly.

Well, not quite at least here in N. CA (might be different other places).  Couple friends kept their F24s in mono slips.  After docking, they pulled out the amas on both sides until they met the dock fenders; probably about 12 feet total width.  That way, there was minimal growth and mostly along the bottom so it was less unsightly.  

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In Santa Cruz harbor, I see at least 4 of them (unfolded) in the water year round. Likely i would not be towing it very often, but I agree it could be an issue.

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what does amas stand for?

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amas =  floats (or outriggers)

akas = beams (that tie the floats to the main hull, strictly speaking this refers to a catamaran but some use it for tris)

vaka = main hull

Farrier preferred the english terms (simpler), not the polynesian

I have seen bottom paint on the sides of floats for long term mooring while folded.  Its not that bad.

4 in Santa Cruz Harbor?  Get one then.  You'll have a one design fleet.

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Your kids will  like the F24- even if they are not into sailing, just doing circles around the other boats is fun by istself and will give them the feeling that dad’s boat really kicks ass. Your wife (her first, but the rest of the family later, possibly) will find the F24 exposed (spray, wind) and a bit over the top when wind reaches above 13 or so ( but the solution is indicated in post above, about  the virtues of sailing slightly under-powered). 

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So basically its unanimous a corsair would be a good choice. That's good news. Thank you all. Now I just have to wait for Gary to get back from the Annapolis boat show. 

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17 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

what does amas stand for?

For some reason, multihullers (particularly trimaran owners) stick to polynesian nomenclature.  Vaka=main hull; aka=connecting crossbeams, ama=floats.

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37 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

For some reason, multihullers (particularly trimaran owners) stick to polynesian nomenclature.  Vaka=main hull; aka=connecting crossbeams, ama=floats.

Thanks. :)

 

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52 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

For some reason, multihullers (particularly trimaran owners) stick to polynesian nomenclature.  Vaka=main hull; aka=connecting crossbeams, ama=floats.

I don't,  I stick to the terms Ian did use (beams, floats)

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You can now get vinyl wrap anti-foul,  and there may be a choice of colors to match the boat, otherwise there is also silicon anti-foul, or polish which all help to keep the floats clean.

I would be very careful with using concrete blocks as tie-downs. The problem is they will move (unless they are really heavy, like 100's of kg's) inwards the hulls and slacken the tie down lines, allowing the boat to move more.

Tying to ground anchors are the best, as they can't move. 

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Just a side note. We had our F-24 in a slip for a year at a public marina (like Alameda) using an AirDock to lift the boat out of the water once folded. It was easy and prevented any fouling of the amas and main hull. The AirDock doesn't require any modifications to the dock other than bolting down the air pump console, so marinas generally don't have a problem with them. Takes about 3 minutes to lift or lower the boat.

 

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how much is an air dock?

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Not sure of the current pricing. I recall about $4K. I sold it for 3K. Here's a pic

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P4080036.thumb.JPG.66b48481ad000361ebcba48b929645a8.JPG

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You've probably done your research already, but you might have noticed that there are several 24 foot Corsair models. Each one is different is some subtile and not so subtile ways.

The first generation F-24 is the MKI (Mark 1). It has a swinging center board configuration instead of the dagger board used on all subsequent models. It has a sliding hatch plexiglass cabin hatch much like a classic keel boat. This model is the slowest of the F-24s, but very good for people who are gunk holing around in shallow water and lakes. It will run circles around any J/70.

The second generation F-24 is the MKII (Mark II). It has a dagger board and a pop-top cabin hatch. The MKII's are lighter and a little more refined than the MKI's. In SF they rate the MKII at PHRF 66-69, while the MKI is rated at 84. It's faster than the MKI but mostly the same to sail and operate. I own one of these for many years and almost always single-handed it (in any conditions). It will obliterate a J/70, terrorize J/105's, and scare the hell out of a poorly sail J/120.

The third generation F-24 is called a Sprint 750 MKI. It is basically an F-24 without the cabin and an open cockpit. It uses the same hull and amas. It has a taller mast (with more sail area) with a larger wing-like section. This boat is a great day sailor and much more passenger friendly during tacks and gybes. In light air (<12kts) this thing is an absolute weapon, however, and the reason people don't like this model so much, is in heavy air it can be a handful. Several have been capsized due to crew inexperience. It is very powered up for the amount of ama buoyancy is has (old F-24 MKII amas). Single-handing this boat in 15Kts+ is going to be trilling to say the least. Correctly sailed, there aren't too many J/boats that can beat it. It rates about 48 is SF.

The fourth generation F-24 is the Sprint 750 MKII. It is the same as the somethings terrifying MKI with one big difference - It has redesigned high buoyancy ama that can handle the larger mast/sail area introduced in the MKI Sprint. It's much more forgiving than the MKI Sprint 750 and faster (maybe). For day sailing and racing this is the weapon of choice if you have the cash. J/Boat won't leave the dock if they know you're out there.

An additional fourth generation variant is the Dash 750. It's a Sprint 750 MKII with a full cabin like the first and second generations. It has all the speed of the Sprint 750 MKII (a little slower), with a place to sleep and take a dump. They tend to be pretty pricey on the used market, but if you wanted a nice little weekend pocket cruiser that is fast and easy to handle, this is a good choice.

Any one of the first four generations of F-24's is a great boat. All are easy to rig, and except for the Sprint MKI's heavy air scariness, all are easy to sail. Pick the boat that fits your budget and go for it.

Couple of myths you may have heard about multihulls that a lot of mono hullers seem to propagate.

  1. "Multihulls are terrible is light air." Absolute bullshit. Most tris have very narrow waterlines, a shit load of sail compared to monos, and weigh nothing. They kill in light air.
  2. "Multihulls can't point." More bullshit. Most tris have deep daggerboard and narrow waterlines. We can point the same as most monos when we have to. We just don't do it because upwind our best VMG is slightly lower (a couple of degrees). 
  3. "Multihulls are hard to tack or gybe." Poppycock. You may have noticed that most tris have a generous amount of rocker in the main hull and the amas are rigged slightly upward (dihedral). This lets the boat easily rotate through a turn. An F-24, or any of the F-Boats, can easily turn in its wake. Maneuvering in tight quarters is no big deal as long as you remember the boat is 13 feet wide.
  4. "Multihulls have a harsh ride." At the dock this is kind of true. The side to side motion is different than a mono and when you step on one side of the boat expecting it to roll, it doesn't. It just stops suddenly. It's weird at first. Sailing it's a completely different story. The pitching of the boat is the same as a mono, but the rolling motion is way less than a mono. When a puff hits the boat, it doesn't roll on its side and toss everyone overboard, it rolls a few degrees, stops, and then accelerates like crazy. Once you experience it, you'll giggle like a school girl.
  5. "Multihulls are ugly." It's hard to judge how a boat really looks when all you see is the back of it, as most mono do.
  6. "Multihulls are hard to handle." Ha! just the opposite. Here are two videos that show what its like. The first is an F-27 in 20kts of breeze doing about 16-18kts across "The Slot." The second is an F-25C going from Point Bonita to the Bay Bridge at about 20kts. Does anyone look like they are working very hard?

That's your history lesson for the day and my best salesman pitch. 

 

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Only thing I disagree with you on is the pointing.  If you've ever raced in mixed fleets and tried to go over the top of a well sailed mono, he'll head you up and you won't get bye.  Especially if there is only a couple boat widths of room.  Going low is nearly as bad if the mono is bigger with a bigger sailplan, you get in his shadow and can't get bye.  Sure, you can get bye but you have to give yourself enough space.  

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10 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Only thing I disagree with you on is the pointing.  If you've ever raced in mixed fleets and tried to go over the top of a well sailed mono, he'll head you up and you won't get bye.  Especially if there is only a couple boat widths of room.  Going low is nearly as bad if the mono is bigger with a bigger sailplan, you get in his shadow and can't get bye.  Sure, you can get bye but you have to give yourself enough space.  

Kind of true. The perceived problem with multihull pointing, in my opinion, is caused by two factors. The first is apparent wind vs pointing. Obviously the faster you go, the more the apparent wind moves forward requiring a tighter sheeting angle. Most of the F-boat I've sailed don't have barber haulers, so you're kind of stuck with the sheeting angle you have. If you slow down you'll point about the same, but you'll not be going at your best VMG. You'll be going as slow as the mono you're trying to out point. Generally a bad idea. The second factor is a waterline problem. Because multis generally rate faster than monos of similar length, they tend to be sailing with monos that are much larger and have much longer waterlines and weigh a lot more. Longer waterlines make less leeway than a similar boat with a shorter waterline. Add some waves and the lightweight multi just doesn't have the momentum of the larger keelboat and slides more upwind (like a dinghy). The more you slow down to point, the worse it gets. In essences you're trying to race a 24 foot boat against a 40 foot boat, which all things being equal, favors the 40 footer as far as pointing goes. If you put an F-24 next to most 24 foot monos, you'll see they point the same at the slower, higher angles. 

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

Kind of true. The perceived problem with multihull pointing, in my opinion, is caused by two factors.

Don't forget the more cruisy side of things too: there are  a lot of condomarans that literally can't point because they have inefficient appendages and high windage, and there are many sailors for which that is the only multihull experience they have so from their experience they are correct.

Also a lot of the early multis didn't have efficient foils either (think 70s-80s) and because of the lower weight drifted a lot more than monos of the time that relied on a deep, full keel hull to go upwind.

Some cruising monos with stubby keels also aren't going to be that great upwind but usually not as bad as the slower cats.

The real issue is the generalization of the assumptions that apply to a subset of multihulls. It's actually kind of funny that when sailing an F-24 next to say a Melges 24, you start really pulling ahead on the upwind legs when the wind is up and the sportboat is doing hull speed but the keep up well downwind (and in some wind ranges are faster)!

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2 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Don't forget the more cruisy side of things too: there are  a lot of condomarans that literally can't point because they have inefficient appendages and high windage, and there are many sailors for which that is the only multihull experience they have so from their experience they are correct.

Also a lot of the early multis didn't have efficient foils either (think 70s-80s) and because of the lower weight drifted a lot more than monos of the time that relied on a deep, full keel hull to go upwind.

Some cruising monos with stubby keels also aren't going to be that great upwind but usually not as bad as the slower cats.

The real issue is the generalization of the assumptions that apply to a subset of multihulls. It's actually kind of funny that when sailing an F-24 next to say a Melges 24, you start really pulling ahead on the upwind legs when the wind is up and the sportboat is doing hull speed but the keep up well downwind (and in some wind ranges are faster)!

Yeah, I was assuming we are talking about current F-Boatish type tris the OP is interested in. There are plenty of condomarans out there that sail like, well, condos. As a family boat and causal racer, I think it's pretty hard to beat an F24/27/28/31. Not seeing how a J/70 would even come close unless you wanted to do some super anal OD racing, which is fun too.

I'm still kicking myself for selling my F24. What was I thinking?

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2 hours ago, bhyde said:

Yeah, I was assuming we are talking about current F-Boatish type tris the OP is interested in. There are plenty of condomarans out there that sail like, well, condos. As a family boat and causal racer, I think it's pretty hard to beat an F24/27/28/31. Not seeing how a J/70 would even come close unless you wanted to do some super anal OD racing, which is fun too.

Yes, I agree with all the above, F-boats point just as well as most monohulls when needed although fastest a few degrees lower.

I've had my 24 for 10yrs and it's still a blast to sail! And if I had a boat I had to keep at a dock I would have paid several times the price of the tri in moorage fees alone around here! So it's definitely great bang for the buck too (and I could probably sell it for close to what I paid for)

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20 hours ago, bhyde said:

You've probably done your research already, but you might have noticed that there are several 24 foot Corsair models. Each one is different is some subtile and not so subtile ways.

The first generation F-24 is the MKI (Mark 1). It has a swinging center board configuration instead of the dagger board used on all subsequent models. It has a sliding hatch plexiglass cabin hatch much like a classic keel boat. This model is the slowest of the F-24s, but very good for people who are gunk holing around in shallow water and lakes. It will run circles around any J/70.

The second generation F-24 is the MKII (Mark II). It has a dagger board and a pop-top cabin hatch. The MKII's are lighter and a little more refined than the MKI's. In SF they rate the MKII at PHRF 66-69, while the MKI is rated at 84. It's faster than the MKI but mostly the same to sail and operate. I own one of these for many years and almost always single-handed it (in any conditions). It will obliterate a J/70, terrorize J/105's, and scare the hell out of a poorly sail J/120.

The third generation F-24 is called a Sprint 750 MKI. It is basically an F-24 without the cabin and an open cockpit. It uses the same hull and amas. It has a taller mast (with more sail area) with a larger wing-like section. This boat is a great day sailor and much more passenger friendly during tacks and gybes. In light air (<12kts) this thing is an absolute weapon, however, and the reason people don't like this model so much, is in heavy air it can be a handful. Several have been capsized due to crew inexperience. It is very powered up for the amount of ama buoyancy is has (old F-24 MKII amas). Single-handing this boat in 15Kts+ is going to be trilling to say the least. Correctly sailed, there aren't too many J/boats that can beat it. It rates about 48 is SF.

The fourth generation F-24 is the Sprint 750 MKII. It is the same as the somethings terrifying MKI with one big difference - It has redesigned high buoyancy ama that can handle the larger mast/sail area introduced in the MKI Sprint. It's much more forgiving than the MKI Sprint 750 and faster (maybe). For day sailing and racing this is the weapon of choice if you have the cash. J/Boat won't leave the dock if they know you're out there. 

An additional fourth generation variant is the Dash 750. It's a Sprint 750 MKII with a full cabin like the first and second generations. It has all the speed of the Sprint 750 MKII (a little slower), with a place to sleep and take a dump. They tend to be pretty pricey on the used market, but if you wanted a nice little weekend pocket cruiser that is fast and easy to handle, this is a good choice.

Any one of the first four generations of F-24's is a great boat. All are easy to rig, and except for the Sprint MKI's heavy air scariness, all are easy to sail. Pick the boat that fits your budget and go for it.

Couple of myths you may have heard about multihulls that a lot of mono hullers seem to propagate.

  1. "Multihulls are terrible is light air." Absolute bullshit. Most tris have very narrow waterlines, a shit load of sail compared to monos, and weigh nothing. They kill in light air.
  2. "Multihulls can't point." More bullshit. Most tris have deep daggerboard and narrow waterlines. We can point the same as most monos when we have to. We just don't do it because upwind our best VMG is slightly lower (a couple of degrees)
  3. "Multihulls are hard to tack or gybe." Poppycock. You may have noticed that most tris have a generous amount of rocker in the main hull and the amas are rigged slightly upward (dihedral). This lets the boat easily rotate through a turn. An F-24, or any of the F-Boats, can easily turn in its wake. Maneuvering in tight quarters is no big deal as long as you remember the boat is 13 feet wide.
  4. "Multihulls have a harsh ride." At the dock this is kind of true. The side to side motion is different than a mono and when you step on one side of the boat expecting it to roll, it doesn't. It just stops suddenly. It's weird at first. Sailing it's a completely different story. The pitching of the boat is the same as a mono, but the rolling motion is way less than a mono. When a puff hits the boat, it doesn't roll on its side and toss everyone overboard, it rolls a few degrees, stops, and then accelerates like crazy. Once you experience it, you'll giggle like a school girl.
  5. "Multihulls are ugly." It's hard to judge how a boat really looks when all you see is the back of it, as most mono do.
  6. "Multihulls are hard to handle." Ha! just the opposite. Here are two videos that show what its like. The first is an F-27 in 20kts of breeze doing about 16-18kts across "The Slot." The second is an F-25C going from Point Bonita to the Bay Bridge at about 20kts. Does anyone look like they are working very hard? 

That's your history lesson for the day and my best salesman pitch. 

 

Thank you for breaking down the differences in the F models and all the other useful tri information.  You have helped steer me in much more distinct path.

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4 hours ago, bhyde said:

I'm still kicking myself for selling my F24. What was I thinking?

You can always get a ride on my SeaRail if you want a similar ride.  

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3 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

...  You have helped steer me in much more distinct path.

My work here is done. Welcome to the Dark Side.

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On 10/11/2018 at 8:34 PM, bhyde said:

You've probably done your research already, but you might have noticed that there are several 24 foot Corsair models. Each one is different is some subtile and not so subtile ways.

The first generation F-24 is the MKI (Mark 1). It has a swinging center board configuration instead of the dagger board used on all subsequent models. It has a sliding hatch plexiglass cabin hatch much like a classic keel boat. This model is the slowest of the F-24s, but very good for people who are gunk holing around in shallow water and lakes. It will run circles around any J/70.

The second generation F-24 is the MKII (Mark II). It has a dagger board and a pop-top cabin hatch. The MKII's are lighter and a little more refined than the MKI's. In SF they rate the MKII at PHRF 66-69, while the MKI is rated at 84. It's faster than the MKI but mostly the same to sail and operate. I own one of these for many years and almost always single-handed it (in any conditions). It will obliterate a J/70, terrorize J/105's, and scare the hell out of a poorly sail J/120.

The third generation F-24 is called a Sprint 750 MKI. It is basically an F-24 without the cabin and an open cockpit. It uses the same hull and amas. It has a taller mast (with more sail area) with a larger wing-like section. This boat is a great day sailor and much more passenger friendly during tacks and gybes. In light air (<12kts) this thing is an absolute weapon, however, and the reason people don't like this model so much, is in heavy air it can be a handful. Several have been capsized due to crew inexperience. It is very powered up for the amount of ama buoyancy is has (old F-24 MKII amas). Single-handing this boat in 15Kts+ is going to be trilling to say the least. Correctly sailed, there aren't too many J/boats that can beat it. It rates about 48 is SF.

The fourth generation F-24 is the Sprint 750 MKII. It is the same as the somethings terrifying MKI with one big difference - It has redesigned high buoyancy ama that can handle the larger mast/sail area introduced in the MKI Sprint. It's much more forgiving than the MKI Sprint 750 and faster (maybe). For day sailing and racing this is the weapon of choice if you have the cash. J/Boat won't leave the dock if they know you're out there.

An additional fourth generation variant is the Dash 750. It's a Sprint 750 MKII with a full cabin like the first and second generations. It has all the speed of the Sprint 750 MKII (a little slower), with a place to sleep and take a dump. They tend to be pretty pricey on the used market, but if you wanted a nice little weekend pocket cruiser that is fast and easy to handle, this is a good choice.

Any one of the first four generations of F-24's is a great boat. All are easy to rig, and except for the Sprint MKI's heavy air scariness, all are easy to sail. Pick the boat that fits your budget and go for it.

Couple of myths you may have heard about multihulls that a lot of mono hullers seem to propagate.

  1. "Multihulls are terrible is light air." Absolute bullshit. Most tris have very narrow waterlines, a shit load of sail compared to monos, and weigh nothing. They kill in light air.
  2. "Multihulls can't point." More bullshit. Most tris have deep daggerboard and narrow waterlines. We can point the same as most monos when we have to. We just don't do it because upwind our best VMG is slightly lower (a couple of degrees). 
  3. "Multihulls are hard to tack or gybe." Poppycock. You may have noticed that most tris have a generous amount of rocker in the main hull and the amas are rigged slightly upward (dihedral). This lets the boat easily rotate through a turn. An F-24, or any of the F-Boats, can easily turn in its wake. Maneuvering in tight quarters is no big deal as long as you remember the boat is 13 feet wide.
  4. "Multihulls have a harsh ride." At the dock this is kind of true. The side to side motion is different than a mono and when you step on one side of the boat expecting it to roll, it doesn't. It just stops suddenly. It's weird at first. Sailing it's a completely different story. The pitching of the boat is the same as a mono, but the rolling motion is way less than a mono. When a puff hits the boat, it doesn't roll on its side and toss everyone overboard, it rolls a few degrees, stops, and then accelerates like crazy. Once you experience it, you'll giggle like a school girl.
  5. "Multihulls are ugly." It's hard to judge how a boat really looks when all you see is the back of it, as most mono do.
  6. "Multihulls are hard to handle." Ha! just the opposite. Here are two videos that show what its like. The first is an F-27 in 20kts of breeze doing about 16-18kts across "The Slot." The second is an F-25C going from Point Bonita to the Bay Bridge at about 20kts. Does anyone look like they are working very hard?

That's your history lesson for the day and my best salesman pitch. 

 

Thanks for all the info !!

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nobody mentioned the Dash Mk III called the 760, has new ama's.
 

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I wouldn't call it a Dash Mk III. I own one and owned a C242. Its a new boat. Sails way better and faster than the 242 with no drama.

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Update; so I just got back from the dealer. I was presented with 3 boats. An older f27 90's boat around 40k, a 2015 sprint mark2 basically unused in the mid 40s,  and a2018 dash new for 90k. All with trailers. 

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I am prepared to sign an offer on one of them. The 2015 seems like a deal, but it is rather bare on equipment.

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3 hours ago, eastern motors said:

How are the sails and rigging on the 27?

I did not check that one out as I wasn't really interested in the older 27. So the answer is I dont know much. I know it had the old style cable rigging.

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1 hour ago, We are Rimas! said:

I did not check that one out as I wasn't really interested in the older 27. So the answer is I dont know much. I know it had the old style cable rigging.

I don't know what you mean by old style cable rigging.  I've never seen an F-boat with solid rigging or are you saying that it was metal vs synthetic?

There is nothing wrong with the F-27 or the rig (I had a single spreader 27 and it thrived in heavy air).  It is significantly larger/heavier than the Sprint and since you only mentioned day sailing, the Sprint would be a great choice.  It is more heavily powered than the 27 (and faster) so crawl, walk, run and heed the great advice of those that recommend that you sail a bit underpowered until you gain experience/confidence.  I'm talking the difference between 14kts and 18kts.  I never had a bad sail on my 27.  Let us know when you're an owner and best of luck!  The learning curve is steep and lots of fun.  

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13 hours ago, free2speed said:

I wouldn't call it a Dash Mk III. I own one and owned a C242. Its a new boat. Sails way better and faster than the 242 with no drama.

same hull, cabin slightly altered from MKII and the new ama's and beams, same mast and  sails but now with a few carbon options,  certainly looks good unfortunately hull not upgraded to match the reverse ama bows, so that will be MKIV I guess?

They changed the rudder stocks and mount for mast support.

Ama have more wetted surface so maybe no improvement in the light but bigger righting moment so will certainly be better up range.

Just like mk1 ama's beat a mk2 ama boat in very light conditions

 

 

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10 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I don't know what you mean by old style cable rigging.  I've never seen an F-boat with solid rigging or are you saying that it was metal vs synthetic?

There is nothing wrong with the F-27 or the rig (I had a single spreader 27 and it thrived in heavy air).  It is significantly larger/heavier than the Sprint and since you only mentioned day sailing, the Sprint would be a great choice.  It is more heavily powered than the 27 (and faster) so crawl, walk, run and heed the great advice of those that recommend that you sail a bit underpowered until you gain experience/confidence.  I'm talking the difference between 14kts and 18kts.  I never had a bad sail on my 27.  Let us know when you're an owner and best of luck!  The learning curve is steep and lots of fun.  

yes, no synthetic stays. Gary said the synthetic ones are slightly easier to manage if your splashing the boat constantly.

And i will heed your advice.

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1 minute ago, We are Rimas! said:

yes, no synthetic stays. Gary said the synthetic ones are slightly easier to manage if your splashing the boat constantly.

And i will heed your advice.

Ok, you will learn but let me ruin it for you a bit.  Speed is addictive.  Addicts don't remain steady on their first hit.  They want more.  

Remember that the first time you hit 20 as you are 'taking it easy'.  

I loved my boat and it is a joy to sail.  Upwind, you will pass J35s, downwind, look out Farr 40s.  

For really light air days, work on your hook/slice.  Under 6kts or so, don't bother.  

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On 10/12/2018 at 1:34 PM, bhyde said:

You've probably done your research already, but you might have noticed that there are several 24 foot Corsair models. Each one is different is some subtile and not so subtile ways.

The first generation F-24 is the MKI (Mark 1). It has a swinging center board configuration instead of the dagger board used on all subsequent models. It has a sliding hatch plexiglass cabin hatch much like a classic keel boat. This model is the slowest of the F-24s, but very good for people who are gunk holing around in shallow water and lakes. It will run circles around any J/70.

The second generation F-24 is the MKII (Mark II). It has a dagger board and a pop-top cabin hatch. The MKII's are lighter and a little more refined than the MKI's. In SF they rate the MKII at PHRF 66-69, while the MKI is rated at 84. It's faster than the MKI but mostly the same to sail and operate. I own one of these for many years and almost always single-handed it (in any conditions). It will obliterate a J/70, terrorize J/105's, and scare the hell out of a poorly sail J/120.

The third generation F-24 is called a Sprint 750 MKI. It is basically an F-24 without the cabin and an open cockpit. It uses the same hull and amas. It has a taller mast (with more sail area) with a larger wing-like section. This boat is a great day sailor and much more passenger friendly during tacks and gybes. In light air (<12kts) this thing is an absolute weapon, however, and the reason people don't like this model so much, is in heavy air it can be a handful. Several have been capsized due to crew inexperience. It is very powered up for the amount of ama buoyancy is has (old F-24 MKII amas). Single-handing this boat in 15Kts+ is going to be trilling to say the least. Correctly sailed, there aren't too many J/boats that can beat it. It rates about 48 is SF.

The fourth generation F-24 is the Sprint 750 MKII. It is the same as the somethings terrifying MKI with one big difference - It has redesigned high buoyancy ama that can handle the larger mast/sail area introduced in the MKI Sprint. It's much more forgiving than the MKI Sprint 750 and faster (maybe). For day sailing and racing this is the weapon of choice if you have the cash. J/Boat won't leave the dock if they know you're out there.

An additional fourth generation variant is the Dash 750. It's a Sprint 750 MKII with a full cabin like the first and second generations. It has all the speed of the Sprint 750 MKII (a little slower), with a place to sleep and take a dump. They tend to be pretty pricey on the used market, but if you wanted a nice little weekend pocket cruiser that is fast and easy to handle, this is a good choice.

Any one of the first four generations of F-24's is a great boat. All are easy to rig, and except for the Sprint MKI's heavy air scariness, all are easy to sail. Pick the boat that fits your budget and go for it.

Couple of myths you may have heard about multihulls that a lot of mono hullers seem to propagate.

  1. "Multihulls are terrible is light air." Absolute bullshit. Most tris have very narrow waterlines, a shit load of sail compared to monos, and weigh nothing. They kill in light air.
  2. "Multihulls can't point." More bullshit. Most tris have deep daggerboard and narrow waterlines. We can point the same as most monos when we have to. We just don't do it because upwind our best VMG is slightly lower (a couple of degrees). 
  3. "Multihulls are hard to tack or gybe." Poppycock. You may have noticed that most tris have a generous amount of rocker in the main hull and the amas are rigged slightly upward (dihedral). This lets the boat easily rotate through a turn. An F-24, or any of the F-Boats, can easily turn in its wake. Maneuvering in tight quarters is no big deal as long as you remember the boat is 13 feet wide.
  4. "Multihulls have a harsh ride." At the dock this is kind of true. The side to side motion is different than a mono and when you step on one side of the boat expecting it to roll, it doesn't. It just stops suddenly. It's weird at first. Sailing it's a completely different story. The pitching of the boat is the same as a mono, but the rolling motion is way less than a mono. When a puff hits the boat, it doesn't roll on its side and toss everyone overboard, it rolls a few degrees, stops, and then accelerates like crazy. Once you experience it, you'll giggle like a school girl.
  5. "Multihulls are ugly." It's hard to judge how a boat really looks when all you see is the back of it, as most mono do.
  6. "Multihulls are hard to handle." Ha! just the opposite. Here are two videos that show what its like. The first is an F-27 in 20kts of breeze doing about 16-18kts across "The Slot." The second is an F-25C going from Point Bonita to the Bay Bridge at about 20kts. Does anyone look like they are working very hard?

That's your history lesson for the day and my best salesman pitch. 

 

It's amazing to see the development from the earlier Farrier and the later design. Not just the looks, but also the performance.

If possible, go with a newer design. The floats or amas have more buoyancy, the  folding system is better, giving more internal room, and I think the rigs are also bigger.

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

I loved my boat and it is a joy to sail.  Upwind, you will pass J35s, downwind, look out Farr 40s.  

For really light air days, work on your hook/slice.  Under 6kts or so, don't bother.  

Depends on the currents here in SF Bay area.  IF current is helping to go against the wind, light air can be fun since you only have to fight the current when you have the kite out--I enjoy sailing here in October when I pick my dates/times so the current makes it fun.  Racing in light air is sorta cool, also, in mixed fleets since the boats perform to their ratings in light stuff.  My F242 never sailed to its rating in 6-12 kt breezes; but sailed to its rating in under 6 and above 15.  The 13-14 range depended on current direction.  Basically its a design issue; Ian "thought" the boat would plane but it doesn't.  So the fat vaka (middle hull) limits your speed to a waterline length limit until you get enough breeze to power through the displacement wave.  Of course, he designed the vaka to be fat so it would have decent accommodations.   In light stuff it does well because the design is light weight compared to a keelboat.-- a 3 kt breeze will move a 2000 pound boat faster than a 4 ton monomaran.

Current fast designs (like my SeaRail for example) don't have fat vakas.  The faster new boats with decent cabins just have enormous sailplans.  

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"until you get enough breeze to power through the displacement wave"

So if you are not 'planing' after you power through the displacement wave, what do you call it?

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True Story: As a result of that very F-25C ride (2nd video), the spinnaker-trimmer was so completely hooked that purchased a Dash 750 Mk-I the following season.

Also note that in the first video the boat is double reefed.  ;-)

Cheers!!!

-MH

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10 hours ago, Sailabout said:

same hull, cabin slightly altered from MKII and the new ama's and beams, same mast and  sails but now with a few carbon options,  certainly looks good unfortunately hull not upgraded to match the reverse ama bows, so that will be MKIV I guess?

They changed the rudder stocks and mount for mast support.

Ama have more wetted surface so maybe no improvement in the light but bigger righting moment so will certainly be better up range.

Just like mk1 ama's beat a mk2 ama boat in very light conditions

 

 

When you get a chance sail one, take it.  It's a totally different boat with the way the new floats work with the old hull.  I've owned and sailed three other farrier/corsair trimarans.  The 760 sails like none of the others. Faster across the whole range of wind speed, more predictable in the gusts not to mention countless small refinements in the rigging, fit and finish.  Don't want to highjack Rimas' thread so back to regular programming.

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3 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

"until you get enough breeze to power through the displacement wave"

So if you are not 'planing' after you power through the displacement wave, what do you call it?

Multihulls are light, so the displacement waves they make are small.  So when they have enough breeze, they can go faster than hull speed (1.33 times the sq rt of LWL).  Basically, we call it going fast.  Now, those folks who actually have planes that get the boat out of the water (for example, America's Cup catamarans with hydrofoils), those plane (but they prefer to call it foiling).  Motor boats designed to do so plane...you can easily tell since when they are moving slow, they make big waves, then when they power up, they make little waves.  I looked very hard for a change in displacement wave size over the 12 years of owning my F242...never happened; and I did see 20 kts a couple times.  

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I don't get the planing theory at all on conventional F Boats, sure many times I have had the sensation of planing when the main hull is leaving the water but invariably at this stage (on non foiling tri's) the leeward float is hard pressed into the water, how can that be planing?

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Ok. Good news . Offer accepted.  Sea trial and survey next. :D

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There has been a similar discussion about the way our boats behave on the new Fboats forum and I resisted answering as (believe it or not) I resisted here.

For my 2c worth after owning/steering and racing a TT720, F24 MkII, F27, F22R, F28R, and racing on most of the boats mentioned here, I have found that the word "planing" does not work here, nor do any of the hull speed predictions and wave interference theories. IMHO, a better description is "break free of the complex drag on one or more of our hulls", or today I will call it "breakfree".

Sailboarders have similar discussions about how/when hulls break free, and in some designs with some sailors there is a time when they jump to "glide mode", typically displacing like a div II board or raceboard edge. Other designs and sailors actually "froth" on the concave sections to make them break free before they actually plane. And in fresh winds they just about all let go completely and plane before they completely break free and touch down on a surface the size of a dinner plate with only a skeg for control (and yes they can foil on that skeg). That drag reduction is why the conventional sailboard is still faster than a foiling sailboard. This week anyway.

I digressed because our boats are like sailboards but more complex.

Certainly the nicest time in all our boats is when the centre hull joins the windward hull and breaks free, even if only sporadically. Sometimes the centre hull is contributing to the lift by doing a version of planing, but the lift is mainly provided by resistance of the foils and leeward hull, and the increasing efficiency of our sails. Sailing a powered up Sprint/ F82R/ F25C close to the wind for example, you can in flat water keep it oversheeted like a beachcat and drive away to load the foils and pop most hulls so only the leeward hull is frothing/blasting/knifing through the water. Careful steering through a long period sinewave can get the boat going very quickly to an endpoint a lot faster than sailing in a straight line, and VMG is lovely.

We even had days on the F22R where the leeward hull while being the only one in the water, would start to plane/ break free with the right wind conditions and crew hanging out the back of the boat like your Randy. It mainly worked on free reaching conditions, and the speedo went through the roof as we passed boats that we should not have. The conditions had to be just right mind you, and I have to admit that the possibility of a few more knots across the deck while your crew are doing the wildarse thing used to give me nightmares post race. This lee hull lift in the 22 is what convinced me to not be too excited about the foiling 22, which in my little mind would have had too many days where the weight and the drag of the foils would not help the boat do anything better than it does now.

Peter H

           

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1 hour ago, plywoodboy said:

There has been a similar discussion about the way our boats behave on the new Fboats forum and I resisted answering as (believe it or not) I resisted here.

For my 2c worth after owning/steering and racing a TT720, F24 MkII, F27, F22R, F28R, and racing on most of the boats mentioned here, I have found that the word "planing" does not work here, nor do any of the hull speed predictions and wave interference theories. IMHO, a better description is "break free of the complex drag on one or more of our hulls", or today I will call it "breakfree".

Sailboarders have similar discussions about how/when hulls break free, and in some designs with some sailors there is a time when they jump to "glide mode", typically displacing like a div II board or raceboard edge. Other designs and sailors actually "froth" on the concave sections to make them break free before they actually plane. And in fresh winds they just about all let go completely and plane before they completely break free and touch down on a surface the size of a dinner plate with only a skeg for control (and yes they can foil on that skeg). That drag reduction is why the conventional sailboard is still faster than a foiling sailboard. This week anyway.

I digressed because our boats are like sailboards but more complex.

Certainly the nicest time in all our boats is when the centre hull joins the windward hull and breaks free, even if only sporadically. Sometimes the centre hull is contributing to the lift by doing a version of planing, but the lift is mainly provided by resistance of the foils and leeward hull, and the increasing efficiency of our sails. Sailing a powered up Sprint/ F82R/ F25C close to the wind for example, you can in flat water keep it oversheeted like a beachcat and drive away to load the foils and pop most hulls so only the leeward hull is frothing/blasting/knifing through the water. Careful steering through a long period sinewave can get the boat going very quickly to an endpoint a lot faster than sailing in a straight line, and VMG is lovely.

We even had days on the F22R where the leeward hull while being the only one in the water, would start to plane/ break free with the right wind conditions and crew hanging out the back of the boat like your Randy. It mainly worked on free reaching conditions, and the speedo went through the roof as we passed boats that we should not have. The conditions had to be just right mind you, and I have to admit that the possibility of a few more knots across the deck while your crew are doing the wildarse thing used to give me nightmares post race. This lee hull lift in the 22 is what convinced me to not be too excited about the foiling 22, which in my little mind would have had too many days where the weight and the drag of the foils would not help the boat do anything better than it does now.

Peter H

           

+1 on all that except I don’t know anything about sailboards. There is also a noticeable boost in performance on cats as soon as soon as a hull is popped and drag reduced significantly. Hence the adoption of the “going wild” technique for downwind many years ago. 

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Don’t worry about my Plywood mate, he lives a chat. I’ll bring the conversation back. F-27 v  Sprint Mk 2  v Dash. 

You said offer accepted- did I miss something? On which one? 

All really good boats. Condition depending of course. Apart from price 

hmmm  well

the Dash does seem a bit too pricey unless it was absolutely immaculate and fully loaded  

but for mine- the Dash. More modern shape (more buoyant floats,/amas/ outriggers) lighter to tow, nice accomodation, good cockpit. Probably easier to onsell. 

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9 hours ago, plywoodboy said:

today I will call it "breakfree".

 

Peter H

           

There's no magic involved, no need to create words for a psychological event.  The displacement wave doesn't suddenly get smaller, the boat pitch angle doesn't change...all it is is a feeling that the boat isn't stressing so much like you've stopped climbing a hill.   Very similar to another psychological event, that of "getting your second wind" in running.  It's all in your head.  Sorry, I'm a scientist (nuclear engineer to be exact), if nothing physical changes, nothing happened.

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8 hours ago, LionIsland said:

Don’t worry about my Plywood mate, he lives a chat. I’ll bring the conversation back. F-27 v  Sprint Mk 2  v Dash. 

You said offer accepted- did I miss something? On which one? 

All really good boats. Condition depending of course. Apart from price 

hmmm  well

the Dash does seem a bit too pricey unless it was absolutely immaculate and fully loaded  

but for mine- the Dash. More modern shape (more buoyant floats,/amas/ outriggers) lighter to tow, nice accomodation, good cockpit. Probably easier to onsell. 

I am in contract for  the sprint mkII. I like all the cockpit space. It is basically an unused boat that has been sitting in a parking lot rigged for 2-3 years. It is rather sparse on equipment, but it is in excellent shape other than 3 years of sun damage to the running rigging.

The dash for sale is a brand new boat. I'm sure it is sparsely equipped as well.

 

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17 minutes ago, We are Rimas! said:

I am in contract for  the sprint mkII. I like all the cockpit space. It is basically an unused boat that has been sitting in a parking lot rigged for 2-3 years. It is rather sparse on equipment, but it is in excellent shape other than 3 years of sun damage to the running rigging.

The dash for sale is a brand new boat. I'm sure it is sparsely equipped as well.

 

The trampolines may be sun rotted.  Not to worry, though, they are easily replaced even though pretty expensive.  Dunno whether or not Sunrise still makes the Corsair nets, but wing nets are about $1K. When you go for the test sail, look closely at them. 

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

The trampolines may be sun rotted.  Not to worry, though, they are easily replaced even though pretty expensive.  Dunno whether or not Sunrise still makes the Corsair nets, but wing nets are about $1K. When you go for the test sail, look closely at them. 

What are good sources for all things corsair?

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1 hour ago, We are Rimas! said:

What are good sources for all things corsair?

Probably best off asking on the SFBama forum or at the F-boat forum for the most recent experiences.  If you need new sails, I'd check out Pineapple sails in Alameda-local loft who does good work and knows the need for extra reinforcements on corners.  For halyards, shrouds and sheets, I buy from APSltd.com-and you can usually find good selections of blocks and cleats there or at Amazon.  West Marine is also handy for "stuff" (fenders, docklines, anchors...).  Outboards I've been getting online for the better prices.  There really isn't a place for "all things Corsair" or there wasn't back when I owned one.  I do suggest you learn how to make a Brummel splice and get a fid or two once you know how and what size lines you are going to use on your boat.  

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19 hours ago, plywoodboy said:

There has been a similar discussion about the way our boats behave on the new Fboats forum and I resisted answering as (believe it or not) I resisted here.

For my 2c worth after owning/steering and racing a TT720, F24 MkII, F27, F22R, F28R, and racing on most of the boats mentioned here, I have found that the word "planing" does not work here, nor do any of the hull speed predictions and wave interference theories. IMHO, a better description is "break free of the complex drag on one or more of our hulls", or today I will call it "breakfree".

Sailboarders have similar discussions about how/when hulls break free, and in some designs with some sailors there is a time when they jump to "glide mode", typically displacing like a div II board or raceboard edge. Other designs and sailors actually "froth" on the concave sections to make them break free before they actually plane. And in fresh winds they just about all let go completely and plane before they completely break free and touch down on a surface the size of a dinner plate with only a skeg for control (and yes they can foil on that skeg). That drag reduction is why the conventional sailboard is still faster than a foiling sailboard. This week anyway.

I digressed because our boats are like sailboards but more complex.

Certainly the nicest time in all our boats is when the centre hull joins the windward hull and breaks free, even if only sporadically. Sometimes the centre hull is contributing to the lift by doing a version of planing, but the lift is mainly provided by resistance of the foils and leeward hull, and the increasing efficiency of our sails. Sailing a powered up Sprint/ F82R/ F25C close to the wind for example, you can in flat water keep it oversheeted like a beachcat and drive away to load the foils and pop most hulls so only the leeward hull is frothing/blasting/knifing through the water. Careful steering through a long period sinewave can get the boat going very quickly to an endpoint a lot faster than sailing in a straight line, and VMG is lovely.

We even had days on the F22R where the leeward hull while being the only one in the water, would start to plane/ break free with the right wind conditions and crew hanging out the back of the boat like your Randy. It mainly worked on free reaching conditions, and the speedo went through the roof as we passed boats that we should not have. The conditions had to be just right mind you, and I have to admit that the possibility of a few more knots across the deck while your crew are doing the wildarse thing used to give me nightmares post race. This lee hull lift in the 22 is what convinced me to not be too excited about the foiling 22, which in my little mind would have had too many days where the weight and the drag of the foils would not help the boat do anything better than it does now.

Peter H

           

I can very much relate to what you are talking about with "breaking free" and I like your analogies. I't's much more of a phenomena with the F-series tri's than with narrower hulls (such as my G-32 cat). The fatter hulls are definitely feeling hull speed until they break free.

I'm a plywood boy too. Are we related?

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10 hours ago, MultiThom said:

There's no magic involved, no need to create words for a psychological event.  The displacement wave doesn't suddenly get smaller, the boat pitch angle doesn't change...all it is is a feeling that the boat isn't stressing so much like you've stopped climbing a hill.   Very similar to another psychological event, that of "getting your second wind" in running.  It's all in your head.  Sorry, I'm a scientist (nuclear engineer to be exact), if nothing physical changes, nothing happened.

And the Nuclear Engineer MultiDoubtingThom has to tell me I am having a psychological event when I try to find words for a quantifiable jump in speed that is too complex/messy for existing sailboat modelling to predict. Pumping, Ooching, Rocking, all sorts of hard to define physical actions often help produce the "breaking free" phenomenon, talk to any sailors who race at the pointy end of the fleet, they are the ones at the psychedelic end of the bar. 

Sorry for the apparent thread hijack, but after bhyde did such a wonderful answer, there is not much more to add, so I tried to answer the other bits in the debate.

I would say go for whatever 24 footer in good shape fits in your budget. Try for drystored over floating, and garaged is even better. Bigger Dash size floats are definitely faster and also good for load carrying for cruising. Here in OZ we have a shortage of boats that size available, and bang for buck, the Sprint is probably the best around if cruising is not high on the list. 

Peter H

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8 minutes ago, plywoodboy said:

And the Nuclear Engineer MultiDoubtingThom has to tell me I am having a psychological event when I try to find words for a quantifiable jump in speed that is too complex/messy for existing sailboat modelling to predict. Pumping, Ooching, Rocking, all sorts of hard to define physical actions often help produce the "breaking free" phenomenon, talk to any sailors who race at the pointy end of the fleet, they are the ones at the psychedelic end of the bar. 

Sorry for the apparent thread hijack, but after bhyde did such a wonderful answer, there is not much more to add, so I tried to answer the other bits in the debate.

I would say go for whatever 24 footer in good shape fits in your budget. Try for drystored over floating, and garaged is even better. Bigger Dash size floats are definitely faster and also good for load carrying for cruising. Here in OZ we have a shortage of boats that size available, and bang for buck, the Sprint is probably the best around if cruising is not high on the list. 

Peter H

Seriously, you've experienced a "quantifiable" jump in speed?  Show me the video with the GPS speed shown when it happens.  With 6K miles racing an F242, I never had any quantifiable jump in speed that wasn't attributable to a gust or a wind shift.  But then again, back then, I didn't analyze my sail tracks nearly as well as I do now.  I'm willing to be convinced, show me the video.

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I have a tape mesure, as much as I don't like it, put your dicks on the slab for measurement.  If not, then STFU.  It was a decent thread until you brought Freud into the discussion,  

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9 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

I have a tape mesure, as much as I don't like it, put your dicks on the slab for measurement.  If not, then STFU.  It was a decent thread until you brought Freud into the discussion,  

Which part of anarchy are you unsure of?

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On 10/14/2018 at 6:41 PM, We are Rimas! said:

I am prepared to sign an offer on one of them. The 2015 seems like a deal, but it is rather bare on equipment.

Did you buy Rafi's Looking Good or the 2015 (don't know the name)? Wasn't sure which one you settled on.

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1 hour ago, bhyde said:

Did you buy Rafi's Looking Good or the 2015 (don't know the name)? Wasn't sure which one you settled on.

The 2015 is/was ex F-28R and ex Seawind 1160 owner John Brady's boat.  The boat saw very little use.

-MH

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22 hours ago, bhyde said:

Did you buy Rafi's Looking Good or the 2015 (don't know the name)? Wasn't sure which one you settled on.

I dont think it has a name . I could be mistaken. Survey tomorrow.

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Good luck Rimas,

In my experience the surveyor was good for standard boat stuff like core moisture content, engine, wiring. But pretty useless with the major cost factors specific to sailboats and F-boats like sails, nets, rigging, folding mechanism etc. There is a good buyers guide on the farrier website, I recommend printing it and doing your own inspection while the surveyor does theirs. You can use those items to negotiate price later.

http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/UsedBoats.pdf

Also if you haven't found it, there is a trove of information and very knowledgeable people at https://fct.groups.io/

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2 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Good luck Rimas,

In my experience the surveyor was good for standard boat stuff like core moisture content, engine, wiring. But pretty useless with the major cost factors specific to sailboats and F-boats like sails, nets, rigging, folding mechanism etc. There is a good buyers guide on the farrier website, I recommend printing it and doing your own inspection while the surveyor does theirs. You can use those items to negotiate price later.

http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/UsedBoats.pdf

Also if you haven't found it, there is a trove of information and very knowledgeable people at https://fct.groups.io/

excuse me Mizzmo, but RIMAS doesn´t need good luck, he´s got a renewable supply :-)

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On 10/16/2018 at 9:47 PM, Russell Brown said:

I can very much relate to what you are talking about with "breaking free" and I like your analogies. I't's much more of a phenomena with the F-series tri's than with narrower hulls (such as my G-32 cat). The fatter hulls are definitely feeling hull speed until they break free.

I'm a plywood boy too. Are we related?

I wanted a G-32 and ended up with an F-27.  I was blessed to have met Jan and Meade and you never met better sailors or gentlemen. I was very lucky to have known them.  

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24 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I wanted a G-32 and ended up with an F-27.  I was blessed to have met Jan and Meade and you never met better sailors or gentlemen. I was very lucky to have known them.  

HACK!

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1 hour ago, sail(plane) said:

excuse me Mizzmo, but RIMAS doesn´t need good luck, he´s got a renewable supply :-)

Lost my coffee on that one!

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2 hours ago, jesposito said:

HACK!

John, please keep your ad hominem attacks in the Sailing Anarchy thread.  Like me, the good folks on this thread are not afraid to sail at night.  

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Survey rescheduled to Saturday.  I just found out the boat I am in contract on is a 2017 not a 2015. Still the same boat though. Hopefully it works out. 

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13 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Good luck Rimas,

In my experience the surveyor was good for standard boat stuff like core moisture content, engine, wiring. But pretty useless with the major cost factors specific to sailboats and F-boats like sails, nets, rigging, folding mechanism etc. There is a good buyers guide on the farrier website, I recommend printing it and doing your own inspection while the surveyor does theirs. You can use those items to negotiate price later.

http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/UsedBoats.pdf

Also if you haven't found it, there is a trove of information and very knowledgeable people at https://fct.groups.io/

Thank you!

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5 hours ago, We are Rimas! said:

Survey rescheduled to Saturday.  I just found out the boat I am in contract on is a 2017 not a 2015. Still the same boat though. Hopefully it works out. 

Congrats !

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