1215

[J24 restoration] Sanity check on number I have in my head

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**Disclaimer** You don't know me, I don't know you. I am genuinely asking this community a question. If you have nothing to contribute, please don't. I'm not interested in posts about girls/boobs, sarcasm, rhetoric, etc. 

I looked at an early TPI boat (j24) that I'd like to fix  and race in fleet 50. Hull # has significance and emotional attachment. Outside that a boat is a boat. It needs everything. Everything and anything you could ever possibly imagine --it needs all that and more. Boat also probably needs an intro to a chainsaw but I'm willing to do the work. This is a vermiculite J24 without a mast and a soft deck would be gracious. The deck is f'n scary (missing/non-existent). Hull looks OK. Was raced early then the boat sat. Honestly most worried about water that may have frozen in the sump (weak sump). Everything is trashed. Needs bulkhead, new deck, sump reinforcement, hatch conversion, etc. If I do it I'll  probably split the deck and hull (with class permission) and hopefully drop the keel (again class). I'd spit the boat apart and rebuild it. 

So... Ballpark hours and expense? 

I have heated space and tools/facility/experience to make this happen. Looking for sanity check on price and maybe man hours for the job. For the record, hull number has sentimental value. 

Thanks. 

 

edit: spelling, formatting

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Honest advice: Too expensive and too many man hours. Fiberglass, epoxy, balsa, mast, all standing and running rigging, etc. etc. etc. its going to add up plus whatever your time is worth. There are 5,500+ of these boats out there. because of that a race ready one can be had for a very reasonable price.

At the end of the day, you have to decide whether you're a guy who likes sailing or a guy who likes working on boats. If you do the work, you can end up with a nice race ready boat, but it WILL end up costing you more money than a newer race ready boat that was built worth no vermiculite in the sump and the newer style hatches.

Just my $0.02. I looked at a bunch of older J/24's before buying a 1996. Had the boat for 9 years. Did a two day regatta in big air and rough seas with an inexperienced crew. They didn't come back for the second day so I crewed on another boat from the early '80's that was in decent shape. Same conditions as the day before. I couldn't believe how different the two boats felt. my boat was tight as a drum while the  early '80's boat felt like a wet noodle flexing over waves.

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the most expensive J24 on Yacht world right now is $12k

That's 120 hours labor at $100 per

How much is your time worth? 

From the sounds of it you could be in for 10 times that and still not be finished but hey - it's your time.

Since when did most of what we do with boats make much in the way of financial sense.

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please walk away. your time, energy, and resources  would be much better spent buying a boat in better shape.

and would probably leave a much smaller carbon footprint if you care about shit like that LOL

 

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42 minutes ago, adrianl said:

Since when did most of what we do with boats make much in the way of financial sense.

A boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by wood/fiberglass into which one pours money --right? 

 

Thanks for both replies (have not read bump-grind's reply yet). In terms of what my time is worth, I'm worried about a few things: 

First, I don't want to buy a boat that someone else messed with. I want to basterdize the boat myself. That's probably my biggest concern. Ideally I want to start from scratch and do it right. Will that cost more and take a lot more time? Of course, but when I'm done I'll have a competitive boat so at least I'll know it is the sailors that win/lose, not the sailboat/sails. (so first concern is hull) 

Second concern is the mast and standing rigging. I don't want to buy a $5k boat with an old mast. In my mind a $5k boat with an old mast is a $1k boat. And that's where the dilemma starts: any boat with a new mast has been messed with. No one spends money on a new mast without having gone to a speed shop first. Lots of boats hit shit (rocks) and get bottom/keel jobs for the price of a deductible. Masts don't work like that which is why I've been looking for an unmolested, free/disaster boat (with trailer) that I can do myself. Because for the numbers to work, if I need to buy a mast the boat needs to be free.

My time: If I charged myself for my time I couldn't afford it. Doesn't matter what I do. Anything from fixing up the house, restoring cars, building BBQ smokers, etc. If I charged myself for my time I couldn't afford it. At least I'm more comfortable vacuum bagging boat stuff than I am welding so if nothing else it'll be less time. I'm willing to put in the time but only for the right boat. 

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28 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

please walk away. your time, energy, and resources  would be much better spent buying a boat in better shape.

and would probably leave a much smaller carbon footprint if you care about shit like that LOL

 

How do I find a super early post-vermiculite boat with new slider that has never been raced (faired, messed with), also with a trailer and new mast --for a reasonable price...?? 

Carbon footprint: She can drive a model x. I'm fine with 10-12mpg and no insane mode. 

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can't help ya there. been out of the class for almost 20 years. living a happy normal life ;)

 

 

edit: well, mostly

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3 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

can't help ya there. been out of the class for almost 20 years. living a happy normal life ;)

 

 

edit: well, mostly

In my bigger picture, unless something happens and Fleet 50 dies out, this will be a boat my kids grow up with (in addition to jr sailing). So in the grander scheme, I know I should not walk away, I should RUN away --but the time spent now will pay dividends in the future. And to be perfectly honest... I learned on hand-me-down boats and it was cool to watch the opti's this weekend. Every once in a while a low 4-digit sail number would go by and I'd wonder if I knew who used to sail that boat. Truthfully my kids will probably be sailing some type of foiling contraption but who knows...

 

 

 

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truly, there are much better boats out there. they may not have the iconic One-Design legacy of the J24, but in terms of everything else you can do with a boat, just better. S2 7.9 for instance.. and they still hold a 1D NAs I think... and not a half bad weekend camper.. I never owned one, but had many joyful days sailing on one.

 

Good luck whatever you do.

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Currently, the J/24 class seems to have two schools of thought.

1. - the guy who's serious about winning will not even consider a boat below hull 5000. Advantages being the keel is max forward, rudder is good, mast is good, hull is solid, v-birth is water tight, full aft water tight bulkhead as well, PVC rails - no wood anywhere (except the teak and holly cabin sole if you splurge for that option), no settee locker in the cockpit, clean white crisp hull. Nothing to do but a new set of sails, some general tweaking, and you're off to the races! Trailer is most likely road worthy as well.

2. - The guy whos looking for the lowest hull number he can find. These are the people who are going to spend just as much money as the 5000+ hull guys did for a 41 year old boat. My only thinking behind this is they're just trying to prove a point, they're trying to prove that they can still win with 40+ year old boat.

 

It seems to me that your mind is already made up and I wish you good luck. How long have you been in the class? I encourage you to get a ride on some 5000+ hull boats and see how they ride. The stiffness of the hull won't guarantee a win, but it certainly makes it easier. Just look at lasers. Anything under hull 200,000 isn't seen as competitive at the top levels even though it might look fine because its just not as stiff as it used to be. Just like Lasers, J/24 are all mostly ridden pretty hard. I've seen a 2012 J/24 in NY for $20,000. I'm sure the mast hasn't been molested too bad.

Again, like I said before: some people like sailing, some people like tinkering. Fixing up an old boat will be a labor of love and satisfying if your kids are helping and it is an activity you can share with them, but don't expect to be sailing anytime soon and please don't think you will be saving money. Even when you calculate your labor for free, it usually still comes out upside down if the boat really needs every little thing.

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5 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

truly, there are much better boats out there. they may not have the iconic One-Design legacy of the J24, but in terms of everything else you can do with a boat, just better. S2 7.9 for instance.. and they still hold a 1D NAs I think... and not a half bad weekend camper.. I never owned one, but had many joyful days sailing on one.

 

Good luck whatever you do.

Living so close to fleet 50 means the j24 is the least common denominator for a small, easy (and pretty cheap) race boat. Thanks. Not sure yet what I'll do. Have three boats to choose from (all early boats).  

4 hours ago, USA 5184 said:

Currently, the J/24 class seems to have two schools of thought.

It seems to me that your mind is already made up and I wish you good luck. How long have you been in the class? I encourage you to get a ride on some 5000+ hull boats and see how they ride. The stiffness of the hull won't guarantee a win, but it certainly makes it easier. Just look at lasers. Anything under hull 200,000 isn't seen as competitive at the top levels even though it might look fine because its just not as stiff as it used to be. Just like Lasers, J/24 are all mostly ridden pretty hard. I've seen a 2012 J/24 in NY for $20,000. I'm sure the mast hasn't been molested too bad.

 Again, like I said before: some people like sailing, some people like tinkering. Fixing up an old boat will be a labor of love and satisfying if your kids are helping and it is an activity you can share with them, but don't expect to be sailing anytime soon and please don't think you will be saving money. Even when you calculate your labor for free, it usually still comes out upside down if the boat really needs every little thing.

I started racing J24's about 25 years ago. Took a break for a while and did some 105 stuff but  have sailed 24's forever. I'm familiar with the new boats (worked in the business) and I get what you mean about the two schools of thought. I hadn't really considered hull stiffness. Never really thought it was that big of a deal but just like everything else, every little bit matters. For me it's not a competition to find the lowest hull number. I don't really want an old style slider. Would rather find an early new slider boat if possible. Because I worked in the industry the repair work of a disaster boat doesn't really scare me. Been there, done that and know what I'm up against. I'm not that crazy serious about winning either. Been there & done that too. Was a cat 3 for a long time (too long). I want to have fun sailing and have something for my kids to grow up with. Would be nice to know that I have a boat that can point and sail in breeze with the big boys just so I can be competitive but other than that it doesn't really matter. 

Personally I like the teak toe rails but don't like the old cream/off-white deck pans and interiors. The interiors on the new boats are nice. Not worried about the masts being modified, usually masts are masts. Just that they are either new and stiff or old and tend to fall off up top in breeze. I'm worried about the hull and foils being messed with (sump and keel). I don't want a keel that's been thinned then loaded up with bondo up front to get to max forward. Would also like to do the cabin sole, sump, stringers and stanchion base bracing myself. (or find a boat has has the work done well) 

Found two other boats to consider as well. One is an old hatch boat that waterline converted and the other is 3700 series so I think 81 or maybe 1982. I'll keep looking. The old hatch converted boat is looking like the best bang for the buck right now.

 

Thanks. 

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8 hours ago, 1215 said:

... At least I'm more comfortable vacuum bagging boat stuff than I am welding ... 

So I hope the trailer is decent.

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There is a 1991 for sale in NJ that was a sailing school boat for $3,000 on the class website. will be around hull 48xx. Below is a quick estimate I put together. some things can be had cheaper, and you'll have yourself a nice boat in the end. But as with all boats, you will spend $20,000 and all the time you put into it and you'll end up with a $15,000 boat if you want to sell it.

   3,000.00 Boat 

   4,500.00 Trailer (Triad, New)

   4,500.00 Mast - complete

   1,800.00 Boom - Complete

   5,500.00 Sails (complete set - off brand, NOT North or Quantum, etc.)

   1,500.00 repair costs (including deck core replacement, fiberglass, epoxy, topside paint, bottom fairing, etc. NOT including any labor cost) 

   1,000.00 carbon fiber spinn pole

      500.00 all lines replaced (cheap lines)

   1,500.00 everything else (lifeline replacement, every block that needs to be replaced, winches to be rebuilt or replaced, etc)

  23,800.00

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7 hours ago, USA 5184 said:

There is a 1991 for sale in NJ that was a sailing school boat for $3,000 on the class website. will be around hull 48xx. Below is a quick estimate I put together. some things can be had cheaper, and you'll have yourself a nice boat in the end. But as with all boats, you will spend $20,000 and all the time you put into it and you'll end up with a $15,000 boat if you want to sell it.

    3,000.00 Boat 

   4,500.00 Trailer (Triad, New)

   4,500.00 Mast - complete

   1,800.00 Boom - Complete

   5,500.00 Sails (complete set - off brand, NOT North or Quantum, etc.)

   1,500.00 repair costs (including deck core replacement, fiberglass, epoxy, topside paint, bottom fairing, etc. NOT including any labor cost) 

   1,000.00 carbon fiber spinn pole

      500.00 all lines replaced (cheap lines)

   1,500.00 everything else (lifeline replacement, every block that needs to be replaced, winches to be rebuilt or replaced, etc)

  23,800.00

Thanks. Are those numbers for that 1991 boat? 

I understand. Put 20-25 in and get 15 if I sell. Interesting that you consider anything not North or Quantum to be off-brand. I wear a Doyle hat & belt. The 105 I raced on was out of City Island. I'll buy my sails from Paul. 

So then a question about resale value: Tim Corbett was/is asking $20k (now looks like 18) for his boat (1948). If he can get 15+ for 1948 then what's the difference between a 48xx boat and a 19xx or even a 10xx (converted) vintage boat? And more importantly, what is the difference in resale value between a 5000 series since they sell for the same amount (5321 wants $15k)? 

 

Given the same line items you just used, my numbers look like this: 

(Free or stupid cheap) Boat 

$500-$1000, maybe $1500-ish for an excellent condition used Triad trailer

$5000 Mast - complete I honestly don't know. $5k is the number I have in my head. I used to know enough people to get stuff like that at cost (or free) but not anymore. 

$500 Boom - Complete I'll find something decent for cheap 

5,500.00 Sails (complete set - off brand, NOT North or Quantum, etc.) Again, no clue. In looking at such disaster boats I hadn't thought about sails. Not even on my radar... But when the time comes, I'll make a phone call down to City Island and put a suit of Doyle sails on my boat. I don't really consider the cost of sails. In my mind they are an operating cost or a cost of doing business.

Also, I plan on doing something a little different with sails. Remember that weird phase when they were doing that thing with the 110% or 125% jibs? When I buy my first suit of sails I'll get one (standard, class measured, etc.) set and then a second main and jib. Second main will be cut down to --idk... roughly where the reef points are and jib will be whatever that 100%+ contraption they were using for a while. As I said, a lot of this is for fun/pleasure too. My other half has only been on a boat a few times in her life (and already talking about kids sailing foiling opti's). Our 24 will be used as a fun/teaching boat as well as a Thursday night/weekend regatta boat. No idea what I'll have to pay for all the sails --I know the price will be fair enough that I'll probably keep my mouth shut about what I paid. 

$5,000+ repair costs (including deck core replacement, fiberglass, epoxy, topside paint, bottom fairing, etc. NOT including any labor cost) I'm starting from zero. In a former life I had everything/anything to work with boats/composites. Then I got a real job, shoved as much as I could into a storage unit and gave away the rest to friends. I'm going to have to buy a lot of stuff. I used to have piles of paint pails, stirrers, spreaders, tape, fillers, thickeners, fast & slow hardener (I guess now there is slow, medium and fast --and multiple decent epoxy resin brands)... The 4:1 or 5:1 (i forget ratio) pumps, etc. I gave away two really vacuum pumps... It's going to cost me a decent chunk of change to get set up properly. 

$250 carbon fiber spinn pole --Didn't the class recently open up the rules on carbon poles? You can get high quality carbon tubes for stupid cheap on (insert your favorite Chinese website) dot com. Then it's just gluing the jaws in. For $1,000 I'd rather build my own autoclave and make my own tubes. At least that way I could help the class and make the stupid markups on "carbon fiber" obvious. 

$1,500 all lines replaced (cheap lines) --I'll buy whole spools and make it all. No clue what it'll cost. Some stuff I'll buy at length and other stuff I'll buy whole spools. Going to have to re-read the rules and make sure on diameters then buy a spool/spools of whatever ends up being least common denominator. Usually if you buy it right the line is cheap. The hardware is the expensive part. Who knows. Maybe stuff has changed and my fids don't work anymore. 

$3,000 everything else (lifeline replacement, every block that needs to be replaced, winches to be rebuilt or replaced, etc) My gut says all the little things will add up more than I think. I don't have anything (fenders, compass, my old vhf's battery is toast, class and signal flags, optional and/or required equipment, porta-potty, etc.) 

 

$16,250 That's what my numbers put me at. Plus sails and a shit-ton of man hours. I used $1k for the trailer number. If you take out sails you are at $18,300. Add $1k for a motor (that 1991 boat ad said no motor) and you are at $19,300. Funny... Honestly I did not tweak any of my numbers. I didn't even put 2 & 2 together until I started typing that last sentence. Each of our numbers came in $3k apart --which is the cost of that 1991 boat. And that's really what I'm getting at as the heart of all this. The only difference is my time (which I have). To be completely truthful, I've done all this work before and it sucks. I don't really look forward to it but in the back of my mind I worry about things like in your example, if the boat needs a lot more work (keel sump, interior trashed, deck is a LOT softer than the advert says, etc. then what. My costs go up and I over-paid for a boat. In my mind if I can end up with a competitive (very fast) boat for close to $15k then when I take a bath on it and it sells for $5k-$8k I'm losing a lot less than if I put $30k into a boat and end up selling it for $12k. It's not that I have a hard-on for being miserable in a Tyvek suit, just that when both boats are done, I feel like there are more little things I could do to a total restoration (new style sink area, shelves, V-berth, aft quarters, etc.) than if I was on a budget starting out with a more expensive boat. 

 

I've typed long enough.... If you read all that I appreciate it. 

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Wow that was a long one, but I did read the whole thing. The numbers I came up with were just quick educated guesses and a couple of google searches. I was looking for a trailer for a boat similar in size to a J/24 recently and that was pretty much the quote I got from Triad if I remember correctly. I got a quote from Sail-Trailers in Georgia for significantly cheaper, but it was painted steel which is fine for me but ended up finding a used Triad for $2,000.

I do consider anything not North or Quantum "off brand" but that being said, I only buy "off brand" sails because I believe they are a better value. I don't think paying a premium for a name is worth it because I don't think North has all the answers in terms of performance. I think they are great sails, but if 90% of the boats on the starting line have them, they have a 90% chance that one of these boats will finish first. lots of guys out there making great sails.  

The difference between hull #1948 and 5321 is about 25+ years. 25 more years in the elements, 25 more winters, 25 more years of being ridden hard in a blow, 25 more years in the water, etc. I guess what I'm getting at is resale value. If both boats are $15,000, which one do you think will sell first? people buy 1980's boats because they can still compete and they can get into the class for not a lot of money.

In the end, like I've said before, spending money on a boat makes no sense and should never be seen as an investment. I had my J/24 or 9 years and sold it for $10,000 less than I paid. The boat as 9 years old when I got it and 18 when I sold it and had not one suitable sail for racing so I think that was the best I could hope for.

Do what makes you happy. That's what boating is all about right? Let me know if you'll ever need crew.

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Newer boats have some advantages over 25+ year old boats if you are looking at racing at the top levels. But that did not sound like it was your objective.

Also appears you like working on boats since you really don't care about your time / labor costs. You are not alone as many people fall in this group.

Yep, you are going to dump a lot of money into the boat on parts and will most likely get little back from the investment.

But sounds like you are going to keep the boat for awhile and use it for a base / training platform for your kids. Why not fix up an old boat, get exactly what you want and enjoy the heck out of the boat in the process. 

When the day comes to sell the boat, you will have years of memories and maybe kids that will continue sailing as adults. Doesn't sound like a bad investment to me. Do what makes you happy.

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Good discussion with lots of valid points.  As a 24 owner I can tell you I paid about 6k for my Triad trailer, a dual axle with needed options and that was about 5 years ago.  That said, I think the estimates of depending on what you wanted to do of putting 18-23k into the boat are not that far off.  What you sell for would be dramatically different though.  What current asking prices for the boat bear NO resemblance to what the boats actually sell for.  These boats are not rare one off Hinckley or Morris and as such you are competing with 5500ish other boats and at the end of the day, the boat is worth exactly what the buyer is willing to pay for it, not what you hope to get as a seller or what you have into it.  That said, reason seldom plays a part in any boat purchase or ownership, so at the end of the day if you have an attachment to a particular hull number or as others have mentioned if you like doing all the work needed to do what makes you happy and go for it. FWIW I bought a 1987 hull and did a lot of small fixes (running rigging, new canvas, varnish, etc) as I wanted to go sailing more than major work on the boat, but every owners situation and desires are different, so you will have to figure out.  Either way have fun and good luck, keep us posted on what you decide and if you go through with it, pics and thoughts along the way are helpful for others who may consider this as am sure there are many more reading it that are thinking the same thing as you are.

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5 hours ago, USA 5184 said:

Let me know if you'll ever need crew.

Goal is to have my own (4 kids + me) but I'm a couple years out from that :) Also at least a year out from having a race-able boat. 

Anyone have info on Will Grahm? His old boat (#369) has been sitting for a LONG time at a random consignment shop (close your eyes and picture a pawn shop for boats). Spoke to the guy today and he said the boat has only been there for one month. I told him the trailer has two flat tires, the water in the cabin is up to the floor boards and there is mouse shit everywhere inside the boat (all the chutes are mouse nests --but they are vintage 1995 Sobstad chutes anyway). Guy from the boat pawn shop said "yeah OK buddy" to my comment that the boat has been sitting for longer than a month. 

It's a waterline boat. Stanchions are done and reinforced. Keel and vermiculite is done. Diform (spelling) shrouds but (I believe) Kenyon mast & boom. Boat needs work. Cracks and weeping at leading and trailing edge of keel, there's been water in the sump for a long time, awlgrip (topsides and deck) is all cracked from sun damage... But would be 1000x better of a starting platform than the other disaster boat I'm looking at. I remember Will's boat from when I was a kid. Just don't have his direct contact info to reach out to him/his family. That boat (369) is probably 2-3 years out from being borderline chainsaw too. No way I'd pay what the pawn shop guy quoted me today. 

Boat still has stupid stuff like sailing gloves hanging from the chute slider basket lines --boat looks like someone packed it up from a Newport Regatta and/or Fleet 50 Thursday night then left it exactly as-is... and it has sat for years. Kind of weird. Would love to talk to Will or his family directly about the boat. 

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2 hours ago, @last said:

Either way have fun and good luck, keep us posted on what you decide and if you go through with it, pics and thoughts along the way are helpful for others who may consider this as am sure there are many more reading it that are thinking the same thing as you are.

One of my concerns is the boat being competitive. Put me in any of the last 10 boats that have won the worlds and I can't come close to sailing at that level. (I know, I grew up with all those guys, I'm not that good) But I at least want to end up with a boat that can be even with them so if I'm having a good race --or my kid is an awesome sailor, we have a solid platform to compete with. Early TPI boats were a mess. Some of the keels came out brand new further forward than max forward rules of today. Those boats were all over the place. If you happen to find a good boat (that can be saved) then maybe there is a chance you don't have to put battens and bondo on your leading edge to get to max forward. If you DIY the work you can end up with a boat that looks as nice as a 5xxx series boat for much less. 

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You'll probably find the best deals with a private sale. Remember what a boat is listed for isn't necessarily the price. I've bought a lot of cheap boats that people are asking way too much for. The trick is to come with the amount of money you are willing to spend on the boat, then put it in their hands. I've never had anyone give it back. Seems to work pretty well.

The last boat on the list is a 1987 (probably hull# 43xx-44xx) says "best offer, moving to the west coast". A distressed sale is the best kind of sale. Bring your truck, bring cash, be ready to haul it out right then and I bet you can get a nice starting out platform for cheap.

 

https://sailingforums.com/threads/j24-for-sale-in-burlington-vermont.39288/

https://sailingforums.com/threads/j-24-71-for-sale-4000-or-best-offer.39256/

https://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/d/best-offerfor-sale/6685505889.html

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1 hour ago, USA 5184 said:

Seems to work pretty well.

Yes. I just don't want to be insulting to a lot of these guys. I grew up with a lot of them. I know how much my dad put into the boat we had.  

1 hour ago, USA 5184 said:

The last boat on the list is a 1987 (probably hull# 43xx-44xx) says "best offer, moving to the west coast". A distressed sale is the best kind of sale. Bring your truck, bring cash, be ready to haul it out right then and I bet you can get a nice starting out platform for cheap.

Yes, cash is king. (I worked on wall street, I understand that very well.) 

 

To be honest, the disaster boats (early TPI) were a mess. Keels were all over the place... Forward, back, way back --even some too far forward. If I happen to have found an early boat that's an absolute disaster... Except the keel is (legit) roughly at max forward, how much is a disaster boat worth that has its keel at max forward from the factory. (all lead, no trailing edge chop and bondo up front)

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A few random thoughts based on above posts.  I agree with 5184 on many points, as mentioned earlier what the ask is, has really no relation to what the boat will finally sell for.  Every seller thinks their boat is worth x dollars, yet if that were true why does the boat remain unsold and you are even having this conversation if seller was correct.  Timing for sellers to accept reality is quite a different matter.  Some (serious) sellers come this realization quickly, others can take years.  The most extreme example I have seen of this was not a j24 but did take 10 years for the seller to finally realize the boat was not worth what he thought it was.  I also agree with 5184 that private party is the way to get the best deal, sellers tend to rationalize that if a broker is collecting 10% then they will just mark the boat up 10%, but that never works as the boat is only worth what the buyer is willing to pay, not and abitrary 10% charge they have added in their mind when setting the sell price.  The pawn shop person sounds like he  or she is in outer space and at some point down the road (could be far down the road) will lower the price to what someone is willing to pay.

Final thoughts too are that even one design boats are evolutionary.  My 1987 features what I would call a "mini dock box/stair"in addition to the cooler that is very nice with additional storage for lines/blocks, tools/etc.  Later hull numbers eliminated cockpit lockers, some good points (increased safety) some bad (less convenient place for easy access to fenders/portable gas tank for O/B, etc).  I prefer the Lewmar forward hatch that is standard on mine to the older style glass one, rudder differences, etc.  The link to the third one looks pretty promising to me.

Melges 24 same way though, early boats had nav lights, different style of trailer bunks, non reinforcement of stantion bases, etc.  Either way best wishes, although the boat has fallen out of favor on SA as it is not the latest and greatest, the J24 was a well thought out boat for the vintage that it is and represents a great value/bang for the buck in my book.  Bonus too that it can be micro cruised, I did 8 days in the Florida keys with the boat and loved it, not something that would be as nice on like an open sport boat such as a Viper, etc.

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J24 class website has lots for sale, but if you have lots of time and $$ the math does not matter. But, in your budget the $$ you spend now wont have any ROI.. its a big minus. The budget the 5184 but together will  have a street value of 35-45% in 3 years (or there abouts). Time on the water is way better then time on the hard working on a boat.  using todays money on yesterdays technology, for tomorrow does not validate.   >> Fast forward, 7 years from now,  Which program makes sense?,  showing off an older girl who looks pretty.. or showing off a younger girl? 

take a look at this boat.. ( its mine) :)

https://sailingforums.com/threads/1982-j24-3207-for-sale-toronto-complete-racing-package-7-250-usd.39309/

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I just saw a j24 mast with accessories for $500 in Maine craigslist....

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I think I've found another boat. Price is right, it's not publicly listed, it's a Fleet 50 boat that's been through the Waterline shop a time or two... With a trailer maybe I'll do both boats. 

 

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On 10/10/2018 at 4:50 AM, 1215 said:

... For the record, hull number has sentimental value. 
 

Why not imitate grandfather’s axe (dad replaced the blade and I replaced the handle).

Obviously check with class measures to see if you can get away with this but If I were you I would:

Get the best deal on a race ready or nearly race ready boat. I would then do a complete rebuild on your sentimental boat by cutting out the hull number and replacing the rest of the boat with the race ready one you bought. (others might think of that as simply putting your old hull number in the new boat but if you think of it as a complete rebuild with used parts you can convince your self the resulting boat deserves your sentimental sail/hull number).

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

Why not imitate grandfather’s axe (dad replaced the blade and I replaced the handle).

Obviously check with class measures to see if you can get away with this but If I were you I would:

Get the best deal on a race ready or nearly race ready boat. I would then do a complete rebuild on your sentimental boat by cutting out the hull number and replacing the rest of the boat with the race ready one you bought. (others might think of that as simply putting your old hull number in the new boat but if you think of it as a complete rebuild with used parts you can convince your self the resulting boat deserves your sentimental sail/hull number).

Funny you mention an axe. I completely understand the reference. 

I have her grandfather's axe. Her dad gave it to me. When I got it, the haft (handle) was split and the poll (back, butt) was cracked and was missing metal in a V pattern. Her grandfather (her mom's dad) was a tool and die maker (a good one) but her dad --not so much. He used an axe and a hammer to split wood, not a maul, sledge and wedges. The axe was ridden hard and put up wet. (beat to shit) 

 

Obviously this is a sentimental item but also this is a very early 5# (five pound) Collins Legitimus axe. Very hard to find and rare to come across them on eBay or even yard sales/flea markets. Axe was made in CT and had the old, hand stamped logo (so very early, funky hand/crown and no box around logo). I heated the haft (handle) out of the eye, glued it back together and then used calipers to take measurements every inch down the haft. I further took the haft to three different paint stores to get an approximate patina/color of the haft matched. Then I went online (the Internet is wonderful, isn't it??) and found a new-old-stock hickory haft. One with good grain orientation and ring pattern consistent with the original haft.  Fixing the axe head was easy. Found a blacksmith/forger in CT who was able to reverse some of the mushrooming (from using a hammer on the poll) and make it look like the damage never happened. Then I sat down in front of the fire pit with a khukuri knife (from Nepal), a draw knife, a rasp and my calipers. (sort of like when we fair a keel or a rudder) Only took about four hours. Then put the haft in the head, ended up going a few shades lighter on the hickory stain, painted the axe head red (was originally part of a series that was sold to fire departments) and I used it. Well, I let the axe soak submerged in boiled linseed oil for a few weeks before I started using it. Then I used the axe. (equivalent to splitting about a cord of wood, holy crap that'll get you in shape) I knew the whole time her dad would never take it back. Wasn't expecting him to get choked up about it though. I knew the whole time I was restoring a badass axe for me --that (god willing) he can see his grandkids to use someday. 

 

That probably wasn't the response you were expecting. 

 

There are free J24's out there and half of the J24's I see in the $5k range aren't much better than a free boat. Having done the work, the only difference between a disaster and a $5k boat is a small amount of time vs. a small amount of money. Sad part about the class is that it feels like you either need to buy a 5000+ series boat --or get something with a trailer because the scrap value of the lead + the trailer is most of the value in the boat. 

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I respect a man who restores an axe.

I have a few historic ones but I find I myself reaching for one of  the Fiskars , even if less meaningful.

Given you axe story, you should go ahead and restore the hull.

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

I have a few historic ones but I find I myself reaching for one of  the Fiskars , even if less meaningful.

What do you have? I have a bit of an OCD obsession with blunt striking objects and sharp things. I have a lot of old axes and hammers. The only worthless/meaningless axe I have is the no-name 3/4 boys axe I used as a kid. Other than that, everything else is pretty cool. (probably have about 30 restored axes) My go-to axes are a U.S. Army (1945) Plumb hatchet or a 4# Plumb Victory full axe. Both of which I picked up at yard sales. 

Somehow I found a keeper. She doesn't mind linseed oil (smell). Says it reminds her of her grandpa's house when she was a kid. Not so sure she will feel the same way about MEKP but it seems we may be about to find out. 

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14 hours ago, 1215 said:

What do you have? I have a bit of an OCD obsession with blunt striking objects and sharp things. I have a lot of old axes and hammers. The only worthless/meaningless axe I have is the no-name 3/4 boys axe I used as a kid. Other than that, everything else is pretty cool. (probably have about 30 restored axes) My go-to axes are a U.S. Army (1945) Plumb hatchet or a 4# Plumb Victory full axe. Both of which I picked up at yard sales. 

Somehow I found a keeper. She doesn't mind linseed oil (smell). Says it reminds her of her grandpa's house when she was a kid. Not so sure she will feel the same way about MEKP but it seems we may be about to find out. 

My pile of wood cutting stuff is more hording of family detritus rather than a connoisseur’s carefully curated collection.

The farm has been in the family for almost a quarter century. It includes a woodlot. Certainly some square timber work was done. I think someone tried their hand at coopering. Definately a couple of generations of boat building. So a range of saws – one and two person, rip and cross, a bunch of things with blades and handles swung from different directions (axes and adzes), gouges and planes, large family of pull knives. The more interesting stuff was probably locally forged in the dawn of time. Not sure the other makers, definitely some Sandvik, some Hudson Bay, a couple with HB in circle (maybe Hudson Bay) I think Norland or Northland...

Every now and then I try to oil the whole stack but the only ones I keep properly shinny are my sentimental favorites  bloody heavy splitting maul my grandfather favoured and a double bladed axe my uncle used he was very tall so extra long handle – get some serious kinetic energy going with a full swing.

Some how I’ve ended up with a full range of relatively recent Fiskars splitting, chopping, couple of hatchets...they don’t have any romance but work well and no guilt if I over swing and catch the handle.

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

My pile of wood cutting stuff is more hording of family detritus rather than a connoisseur’s carefully curated collection. ... Some how I’ve ended up with a full range of relatively recent Fiskars splitting, chopping, couple of hatchets...they don’t have any romance but work well and no guilt if I over swing and catch the handle.

Nothing wrong with any of that. I don't have a single "wall hanger" tool. Most of what I have is my or her grandfather's stuff --everything else is yard or estate sales so someone else's grandfather owned it. Nothing is a wall hanger because I have a hard time believing that the guy who made those tools pictured them all pretty hanging on a wall. You won't overstrike (that much) if you use them often. 

How are the plastic tools? Are they balanced? Also, I can't imagine teaching my kid or grandkid how to 3D print an axe handle. 

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I've been an owner of a J/24 for 22 years.  My boat was rough when I got it, but I think the deck only had a few issues at that time.

I estimate now that we spent 650 hours getting it in shape before we ever sailed it.  With my accumulated boatbuilding experience since then, maybe I could do it in 400 hours now.

Since then I've re-faired the keel, faired the rudder, replaced the bulkhead again, re-caulked the hull/deck joint, re-done the keel floors, faired the hull, fixed numerous wet areas in the deck, etc., etc.  It's been many hundreds of hours.  By now I think I'm pretty good at it, and I've always been a hands-on guy.  But I've learned a lot.

An old boat in very poor condition (which is what you were initially discussing) will cost you a ton of money to get in tip-top condition.  

The hardware probably costs 75-100% more than I paid 20 years ago, despite the low overall level of inflation.  I assume that none of the hardware on a 40 year old, never-upgraded boat is useable, if you want a boat set up to a high standard.  I'm not going to try to estimate it all, but I think that a vang and traveller assembly alone are pushing $1000, just to get you thinking.

Have you considered a new rudder?  Chances that the original is worth keeping are slim.  $1800.  Even a simple tiller......~250.  Rudder hardware...another several hundred.  Compass?...$1000+.  Winches?  Yikes!

My mast in 2005 was over $5 k.

The class isn't what it used to be.  Participation is way down.  They're good boats, lots of them, and now inexpensive, so I think there will be a class and racing for a long time, but the class is in decline.

It's a buyer's market for boats, and you should take advantage of that if a J24 is what you want.  If you buy a good or pretty-good boat you get thousands of dollars worth of gear for nothing.

You should really consider 'Break my wallet's (Joe MacDonald's)?  boat mentioned above.  CAN3207.  From what I see it's in excellent condition and priced very well, with a successful racing record.

If you really want to build a boat, fine.  But I think it might be more rewarding to build something more unique/exotic in your spare time when you're not sailing your $7500 excellent-condition J/24 with your kids.

I've enjoyed working on my boat, but I think your idea won't lead to satisfaction.

 

Good luck..  and check out that boat Can 3207.  

V. Harris

 

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It should cost around 7 to 10k to get it ready for some real racing, but you can make it presentable with around 3k.

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This thread seems a little dead but I bought a 1988 J/24 two years ago. I lucked out by finding a good boat so I haven't had to start from scratch like you're talking about, but I thought I would list some numbers that I found partially through dumb luck and partially through careful searches of Craigslist and eBay.

$500 for the boat. There was some wet core in the foredeck which I have yet to repair and the boat seemed to have been partially converted to cruising (run of the mill hull paint, self tailing winches, upper and lower lifelines) but a good mast, good keel, and decent hardware.

$600 for a trailer but an additional $400 for tires- It was ugly, peeling paint, rust, broken trailer lights, but a solid frame. The tires would have been about $200 but some of the rims were rusted out so I needed new tires and rims.

About $500 in line. I've replaced everything but the spin sheets, main sheet, and main halyard.

Used sails, $250 for a main, $800 for a genoa, both 3-4 seasons old. Someone gave me a spinnaker and I kept the blade the boat came with. They've been decent PHRF and club racing sails, but I wouldn't take them to nationals.

$1,200 on hardware so far. Half a dozen cam cleats, random pins, universal for the tiller extension, new rachet blocks for the spinnaker and genoa, and random odds and ends. 

$500 for general maitinence, I redid all of the teak toerails and trim, painted the interior, and repainted the trailer and put on new trailer lights, and had the motor worked on.

$200-300 on class required equipment, flares, float cushion, tools for the boat to tune and satisfy class requirements

I still have a lot to do, I've got to redo the bottom paint and the nonskid, but I want to replace the wet core and then paint all at once so I'm waiting till the end of this season.

I don't know if this helps, but there ya go. If I remember anything else I'll edit it in.

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Labor Day sale 30% off on some appropriate J-24 lines. 

Low stretch stuff isn’t on the sale  list 

If you are all snooty about jib sheet and main sheet  you can pay five times as much and have your placebo 

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On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, 1215 said:

Goal is to have my own (4 kids + me)

This is probably your most unreasonable goal in the whole thread!

 

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