i touch myself

[Editor 586]

We have all discussed the type and number of problems that have led to the shrinking of the sport. One aspect which has not been widely discussed is that of the overwhelming patriarchy and sexual harassment within the sport. The sailing industry, specifically sailmakers, need to lead the way in change, for a few, not all, are among the worst offenders.

Go to virtually any big boat regatta in the US, the competitors are overwhelming male. Dinghy classes tend to have a better gender balance as there is a lot less male bullshit for females to wade through. However, the sport largely centers around males in every respect. Most are pretty decent people, but the alpha males that sailmakers hire are too often people that do more harm than good for the sport, and in the end, the sailmaking company itself.

Maybe there are females who sell sails or are “class experts” (or as is often said, “experts with no class”), but if there are, they are few and far between, and they are not household names.

Obviously, it has never occurred to the management of all the sailmakers that there are customers, and more importantly potential customers, who really do not enjoy the sailing bro culture that exists within the sailmaking business, and would rather instead purchase sails and have has the “class expert” females.

Perhaps women are not interested in selling sails or being a “class expert”. Maybe they do not want to bother trying to break through the carbon ceiling that the sport has created for women. Or maybe some women want to, and have no chance at either of these jobs because of the obvious gender bias by the owners and management of the sailmaking companies.

Couple this with some too often sexual harassment by rather obnoxious sailmakers and experts with no class and what self respecting woman would want to be part of this culture, to try and change the norms within the sport?

Case in point : expert with no class flies across the country for a one design big boat regatta to help an owner who bought sails from the company. He steps aboard for the first time with his entitled arrogance and wandering eye. He quickly figures out the one female aboard is now his target for the week. As the week progresses he gets more overt in this attention of the female crewmember. Funny comments become overt suggestions. A glance across the dinner table becomes an unwelcome game of footsie under it. He escalates his attempts, is continually rebuffed, but keeps trying. Of course, there's the butt grab whenever possible. Oh yeah, he’s married with a kid at home, so he’s either in an open marriage or he’s just another creepy middle age sailing industry semi bro who goes home empty handed and has to touch himself instead.

There is not going to be a single solution to getting more people to race sailboats more often, but the things that can be fixed should be fixed one by one. So to the owners and CEO’s of sailmakers - here’s a challenge for you - get more (some?) women selling sails and being experts with class. Watch your sales increase and see more people having fun more often. Discuss here.

Title inspiration thanks to the Divinyls

 

[PaulK 346]

So perhaps SA should set an example by officially changing the newbie initiation "rules"? 

 

[jack_sparrow 7,496]

 Chrissy Amphlett owns the title of this thread plus ironicaly she died of fuckin breast cancer..there is no god...sorry for the early thread drift.

 

[Lex Teredo 257]

I knew a guy from California once who was an asshole. 

So I've concluded California has an asshole problem and needs to change everything about the state, top to bottom.  Why hasn't California taken action yet?  I must conclude California likes it that way.  

 

[Grande Mastere Dreade 2,049]

ok, what sailmaker pissed ed off?

[Grande Mastere Dreade 2,049]

Just now, Lex Teredo said:

I knew a guy from California once who was an asshole. 

So I've concluded California has an asshole problem and needs to change everything about the state, top to bottom.  Why hasn't California taken action yet?  I must conclude California likes it that way.  

 

 

bingo, finally someone gets it..

[Grande Mastere Dreade 2,049]

3 minutes ago, Barnacle Balls said:

There should be a law against sexual assault and rape.

 

go home sock, you're drunk..

[IPLore 808]

Another thread started by the ED......Beware all ye who enter here.

[DA-WOODY 975]

 

[Lex Teredo 257]

8 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

bingo, finally someone gets it..

Well, I was trying to demonstrate the informal logic fallacy of compositional error, but if you say so...  East Coast v. West Coast ain't just a hip hop thing, it seems.

[IPLore 808]

Well another data point is.....there is a reason that we put Californians as far away as possible  (we hadn't bought Alaska from the Russians yet)

[Mike Lambert 5]

When I was old enough to decide what kind of people I wanted to hang with I switched from crewing on race boats to rock climbing, which happens to be a sport where women routinely crush men’s egos. Now that I can afford my own boat and can pick who comes with, I’m back at it. 

[burndoc 152]

Guess it explains why there are less men sailing also since numbers are down across the board.

 

When i drive through any neighborhood i see soccer goals and basketball hoops. These sports are very inexpensive in comparison to sailing.IMHO. Golf went through the same problem. But at least they are televised.

 

 

[Stocky 10]

Men are willing to shell out millions on a boat a woman is not......

[jack_sparrow 7,496]

Millions should be shelled out to kill slow learning morons ...and really slowly like over a fire or something who imbed French Toast in SA not knowing that vid was experimentally analogue/digital geo fenced in 1960 before JFK/Grassy Knoll so she is now approaching 60 yo and most can't see her....yet again 

[DA-WOODY 975]

18 minutes ago, Sam_rosenbaum said:

Men are willing to shell out millions on a boat a woman is not......

Vicky ??

 

problem might be that lofts tend to end up with Bow Boys

who are otherwise unemployable 

[wristwister 71]

Hmm ... I must live in some sort of weird bubble up here in the PNW. Seems there are many more women getting active into sailing than men up here. In fact, I often have trouble rustling up a crew that's not all or predominately female! Now most of you will say "Hey, what's the problem with that!". But I'm married, and I'd rather not look like Hugh Heffner every time I go sailing!

But then again, I'm talking cruising and casual racing here. Maybe in the big league racing things are different.

[southernuksailor 2]

This seems to be a ridiculous generalisation from specific instances. One could probably say the same about any area of the sailing industry.

A trolling post?

In fact hardly worth bothering to respond to. Oh, damn.

[Movable Ballast 166]

The example scot is giving is terrible. Of all the racing that does happen, only the select few fly guys around the country/world to race. If there is a "harassment" problem in sailboat racing it's not at the local level where most of us spend our time and money. I've had many excellent women crew member over the years and the guys have always made the girls feel part of a team not something to be conquered.

I don't get where this is coming from Scot... Misogyny yes, plenty of that but flat out harassment and continual harassment after being told to buzz off? Not in my N=1 experience. 

[bloodshot 79]

2 of the 20 boats at the J109 NAs this past weekend had female owners/drivers.  Not a bad percentage there..

[Parma 185]

1 hour ago, Editor said:

One aspect which has not been widely discussed is that of the overwhelming patriarchy and sexual harassment within the sport.

 

When you say something like this it makes it sound as if you are saying that along with overwhelming patriarchy within sailing (no argument there) there is also an overwhelming culture of sexual harassment within sailing as well, which is simply not true.

That probably should have been more carefully worded, unless it was intended to be divisive? That sort of completely misleading innuendo is rather typical of the mainstream media and has led to the creation of a politically correct dictatorship  (created and fostered to solely to gain elective office) that is now to be truly feared.

Are there ungentlemanly creepy guys out there? Yes, absolutely.

Are there false, expected or gratuitous insinuations which are immediately taken as truth out there? Yes, absolutely.

[southernuksailor 2]

3 minutes ago, Parma said:

When you say something like this it makes it sound as if you are saying that along with overwhelming patriarchy within sailing (no argument there) there is also an overwhelming culture of sexual harassment within sailing as well, which is simply not true.

That probably should have been more carefully worded, unless it was intended to be divisive? That sort of completely misleading innuendo is rather typical of the mainstream media and has led to the creation of a politically correct dictatorship  (created and fostered to solely to gain elective office) that is now to be truly feared.

Are there ungentlemanly creepy guys out there? Yes, absolutely.

Are there false, expected or gratuitous insinuations which are immediately taken as truth out there? Yes, absolutely.

Quite. Where the f**k is the evidence for the 'overwhelming sexual harassment within the sport'?

Not in my experience.

[fufkin 363]

Take a page from the playa's playbook. The dudes on the beach are just minding there own business, enjoying life, letting a woman do what the hell she wants.

Before your faux concern borders on empowerment consultation for said sport, I think a female kick in the ass is in order.

 

[Swimsailor 1,262]

Sailmaker or not, this dude sounds like a douche.  

I believe sailing, as most adventure sports, has male dominance rooted in it's culture.  Whether it's preppy private school Kavanaughism or action sports bro culture similar to mountain biking, it definitely exists.  Are sailmakers the cause?  Is that even what Scooter is asking?  Seems to me the simple answer is don't do business with said sailmaker.  

Anywho… There are some great things happening in my sailing circle to overcome this cultural baggage.  The Park City Sailing Association started a women's Wednesday night sailing/social this past summer that was quite successful.  Sally Barkow attended some the events.  Park City's Elliot 6m fleet has several rad female sailors competing regularly.  The Bear Lake YC has an all female helmed regatta.   Some of the most active racers on the Great Salt Lake are female.  On an individual basis, I had my wife crewing for me this year and 2 more crew are husband and wife.  And we had another crew member's daughter along for a race.  My club has several boats racing each weekend with husband/wife crews.  If of all places Utah can promote women's sailing, surely the rest of the country can do so.  My sailmakers' wives and girlfriends are integral parts of their business and their race crews.  The more each of us do that, the more women and girls will be involved, welcomed and respected.   Social media is creating a lot of avenues for females to promote their sailing talents.  Younger women especially nowadays have a new, stronger voice.  

We've identified the problem, now let's work towards solutions.  And stop being douches.  

[Cal20sailor 2,240]

Only in response to the thread title:

 

[EvaOdland 168]

I wonder if the anecdotal statement "sailing is shrinking" has taken into account anything other than racing and counting the guys that were doing it 35-40 years ago...maybe that segment of sailing is shrinking and it should credit much of the fault to those that participated in it.

That past has sailed and sailing is never going to be "great again" in the way some hold it in their minds.

Sailing is so much more than dick measuring on the race course...and once the industry grasps that energy spent equally promoting non-racing sailing events and activities the better off all segments of sailing will be in the future. 

We don't sail because we have to - we sail because we want to - and it is up to us all to facilitate others wanting to as well...and that includes women, kids, white, black, rich or poor...

How many times a season does your club sponsor a regular come sailing event that isn't a race or part of a crew search for racing?

[brettphillips 1]

Ed.  Depends on which household you're talking about.  If you live in the Bay Area, everyone who bought a sail from 1940 to 2000ish knows Jocelyn Nash.  You as an ex Quantum/Sobstad Guy know her.  Yes, we need more like her!

[OutofOffice 86]

3 hours ago, Editor said:

One aspect which has not been widely discussed is that of the overwhelming patriarchy and sexual harassment within the sport

Have you not even perused your own site?

The hell are you even talking about?

...patriarchy...Can it with that mess.

I have seen more men quit due to their pretty little feelings being hurt than any women.

[Meat Wad 539]

2 hours ago, Lex Teredo said:

I knew a guy from California once who was an asshole. 

So I've concluded California has an asshole problem and needs to change everything about the state, top to bottom.  Why hasn't California taken action yet?  I must conclude California likes it that way.  

 

Yea, Kalifornia has a huge problem but that is another story.

 

2 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

ok, what sailmaker pissed ed off?

The one that hit on one of his GF.

 

 

Back in the Late 70 and 80's, ( I was early to late 20's) it seemed that not only was the sailing great but the swinging life style was there too. I went racing and tried to avoid the late middle aged starting to sag partakers party's. Now with the aging crowd and a small influx of younger sailors, nothing like we had way way back,  there is a huge generational gap.

I'm 60, been married for almost 33 years have a grown son. We had a younger mid 20's single girl who owned a boat and raced with us a few times. She always wore those tight you can see every curve spandex workout pants. No one was ever to my knowledge saying anything overtly sexual to her. But on a 26' boat it was hard not to look. She does not race much anymore but does with an all girl team that get their ass kicked every outing. We try to help them but they seem not to want pick it up.

I think there is a huge problem and it is not the Sailmakers. There are a number of threads where you guys talk about screwing the Owner's wives and daughters.

You guys and the Ed want to see the problem, Just look in the mirror.

 

[kent_island_sailor 3,441]

WTF?

SA routinely comes up with some offensive variation on the sailor chick of the week. If you want to start fixing things, start there

Do you think Clean's caption contest for catholic school girls attracted a lot of female sailors?

If we are counting on the kind of people that have crew flown in across the country for races to save sailing, I predict a healthy future for both J-class and 12 Meter class.

[jesposito 126]

3 hours ago, Barnacle Balls said:

There should be a law against sexual assault and rape.

Yes, after 35 years. Lol

[Snaggletooth 2,905]

47 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

3 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

ok, what sailmaker pissed ed off?

The one that hit on one of his GF.

Ist notte Woodeye is it?

[Stocky 10]

3 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

Vicky ??

 

problem might be that lofts tend to end up with Bow Boys

who are otherwise unemployable 

That sounds a little to close to home for me...

[wristwister 71]

Just now, Barnacle Balls said:

California should lead the way by mandating that all crews shall be manned... er, excuse me... crewed by at least 50% women.

All boats must have at least one non-white minority crew member on board at all times (bonus points for native americans to be awarded).

At least one person in the racing fleet shall be required to be a member of the transgender community (addadictomy surgery preferred but not required).

In additional, all sponsoring clubs shall require that at least 50% of all boats entered are owned at least in part, by woman of color.

 

... and let's not forget the handicapped! Double bonus points for every quadriplegic on the crew!

[KC375 1,640]

3 hours ago, bloodshot said:

2 of the 20 boats at the J109 NAs this past weekend had female owners/drivers.  Not a bad percentage there..

That would be a good percentage if 10% of the population were female.

[bloodshot 79]

6 minutes ago, KC375 said:

That would be a good percentage if 10% of the population were female.

compared to other OD keelboat classes, I'd say its still pretty good

[EYESAILOR 577]

5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 Chrissy Amphlett owns the title of this thread plus ironicaly she died of fuckin breast cancer..there is no god...sorry for the early thread drift.

 

Australian actress and musician. She was battling MS and then got breast cancer layered on top of that. She remained upbeat throughout. After she died the breast cancer awareness campaign "I touch myself" remains.    She got dealt tough cards but she played them right. Her life is far more inspiring to women than diatribes about middle aged sailmakers.

If someone is being obnoxious on the boat or at the dinner table...call them out. The humiliation of being told to stop being a dirty old man in front of other sailors often has a salutatory effect.  If that doesnt work.....tell the skipper in front of your fellow crew members that he has to go. 9/10 times the men on the boat will support their long time women crew.

[EYESAILOR 577]

18 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

compared to other OD keelboat classes, I'd say its still pretty good

Sadly that is both true and pathetic.

[kent_island_sailor 3,441]

In other news, women rare at the skydiving club, pilot's bar, and motorcycle hangout.

[KC375 1,640]

19 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

compared to other OD keelboat classes, I'd say its still pretty good

So the best it gets is 80% underrepresentation...I think that says something

[EYESAILOR 577]

2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

In other news, women rare at the skydiving club, pilot's bar, and motorcycle hangout.

Good number of women skydive.   Lots of young women sail......but sailing could do a LOT to be more female friendly so that we stay in the sport..

 

[Grrr... 1,439]

2 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

Have you not even perused your own site?

The hell are you even talking about?

...patriarchy...Can it with that mess.

I have seen more men quit due to their pretty little feelings being hurt than any women.

Don't bother.  Ed is here to stir shit up.  You don't stir shit up by telling the honest truth.  It requires certain "methods".  Ed and Trump both share expertise in those methods.  Bigly.

[Grrr... 1,439]

14 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Good number of women skydive.   Lots of young women sail......but sailing could do a LOT to be more female friendly so that we stay in the sport..

 

How the sport can be more female friendly?  I'm genuinely curious.  I've never seen any overt actions to discourage women from sailing at the junior or amateur local level.

[VWAP 906]

Not just women

I use to wear speedos on the boat and around the club and being  very fit  and a rather "large" man I use to get comments from both men and women that sometimes made me blush. . One time after going for a swim in the bay I jumped on the rear deck of the commodores boat and started to do some post workout stretching when it turned out  the commodores wife was  standing in the doorway of the aft cabin  watching and then motioned me to come in.  It was a hot sweltering day and she was wearing almost nothing . I went in side and it was quite cool as the air conditioning was on when all of a sudden she, she ........ oh wait...... this is a family site.  ..........nevermind

[OutofOffice 86]

I just honestly don’t know who you guys sail with. I have never seen a creepy douche not be put in his place for bothering a girl. (Usually in the most publicly humiliating way possible).

[bdu98252 50]

Pot calling the kettle rings a bell. Never met the ed but going on his views and site he oversees not sure I fancy going sailing with him. 

[EvaOdland 168]

1 minute ago, Grrr... said:

How the sport can be more female friendly?

Sit down and ask women and girls in your club what would attract more women to pursue sailing as a lifetime activity, find out why some choose to not pursue, or if they are what do they want out of sailing, what will make their experience more satisfying...and listen to what they have to say.

From a man's perspective it may look like there are no barriers to sailing but have you formally asked?

Challenge them and give women the autonomy to build a women's sailing program at your club or community.

(In my area there is a women's skipper and crew series every Monday with various training classes and mentors that focus on education and teamwork, not winning)

Get it started  and hand it off. Help when they ask for help. Don't hover and doubt their resolve.

Sometimes to communicate properly and effect change you have to step back to a very basic starting point and let people air feelings, ideas and desires.

(these are things that I have seen happen)

[VWAP 906]

4 minutes ago, EvaOdland said:

Sit down and ask women and girls in your club what would attract more women to pursue sailing as a lifetime activity, find out why some choose to not pursue, or if they are what do they want out of sailing, what will make their experience more satisfying...and listen to what they have to say.

From a man's perspective it may look like there are no barriers to sailing but have you formally asked?

Challenge them and give women the autonomy to build a women's sailing program at your club or community.

(In my area there is a women's skipper and crew series every Monday with various training classes and mentors that focus on education and teamwork, not winning)

Get it started  and hand it off. Help when they ask for help. Don't hover and doubt their resolve.

Sometimes to communicate properly and effect change you have to step back to a very basic starting point and let people air feelings, ideas and desires.

(these are things that I have seen happen)

Where is the front page article on this? It is just up the street from the SA headquarters 

http://www.lbyc.org/files/Entry List 10-11-18.updatedoc.pdf

[VWAP 906]

1 minute ago, Plausible said:

  Can't wear a sailboat.

That is a  very neanderthalish comment 

[DA-WOODY 975]

an event I attend has Burlesque shows

this year they added 2 fucking dudes

no idea how it went as while they began to announce the 1st

I was 1st to the Bar in another area 

this equality shit can be taken Too Far

[Ajax 1,988]

My head hurts. 

[Shu 117]

I think we need Snags to translate Woody.

 

[Cal20sailor 2,240]

I'm pretty sure Woody has a closed head injury.  

[Raz'r 3,264]

The best thing Owners could do to rein in crotchety pros? Pay them. Don't expect freebies for sail orders. 

I won't have a Pro onboard that I'm not paying, and I do that very judiciously, only when I think the team needs a different voice for a coach.

All of the weird vibes of "I'm so fucking great" etc, end, when you just pay the person for his/her time. win/win.

I would hazard to guess that the Ass in the story would have had a different vibe if he knew the boss could cut him at any point and it would hit his wallet.

[DA-WOODY 975]

36 minutes ago, Shu said:

I think we need Snags to translate Woody.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm pretty sure Woody has a closed head injury.  

you 2 cudda had my photographer seat in the front row

but likely wudda got tossed fur tryin to touch

NTTIATWWT

[Stocky 10]

2 hours ago, VWAP said:

Not just women

I use to wear speedos on the boat and around the club and being  very fit  and a rather "large" man I use to get comments from both men and women that sometimes made me blush. . One time after going for a swim in the bay I jumped on the rear deck of the commodores boat and started to do some post workout stretching when it turned out  the commodores wife was  standing in the doorway of the aft cabin  watching and then motioned me to come in.  It was a hot sweltering day and she was wearing almost nothing . I went in side and it was quite cool as the air conditioning was on when all of a sudden she, she ........ oh wait...... this is a family site.  ..........nevermind

it seems like every time I see your comment you are quoting a porno or is that just a dirty mind. On another note are you a writer?

[Stocky 10]

In any sport when it comes to woman it is male dominated but you can always reach into the depths of internet and find some wacky shit to prove your point

[basketcase 383]

2 hours ago, Plausible said:

i think it is all about money.   Where do you want to spend your money.    Who has more throw away money.  Men or women?   What are the genetic / cultural priorities.    It's always follow the money.   Follow where the money is spent.    Can't wear a sailboat.

Wow.... you sound familiar.... like a bit of a fuckwit i know. Id give you the ceremonial greeting.... but im sure you have heard it already,  and if you are who i think you are.... ive seen them already. 

[duncan (the other one) 670]

Ed encounters a knuckle who happens to be a sailmaker.

Clearly:

- all sailmakers are arseholes

- sailing is full of arseholes

 

Its easy Ed. Its called acting like an adult: call the manager of the loft and tell them you don't want anything to do with the arsehole they sent. Explain why. If you don't get a suitable apology, tell the loft you're never dealing with them, or their affiliates ever again (cc: head office if there's such a thing).

[AnotherSailor 252]

2 hours ago, VWAP said:

That is a  very neanderthalish comment 

and the most intelligent in that whole post

[Bacchus66 20]

9 hours ago, Editor said:

He quickly figures out the one female aboard is now his target for the week. As the week progresses he gets more overt in this attention of the female crewmember. Funny comments become overt suggestions. A glance across the dinner table becomes an unwelcome game of footsie under it. He escalates his attempts, is continually rebuffed, but keeps trying. Of course, there's the butt grab whenever possible

So at some point the owner clearly kicked the guy off the boat and told him to get lost/go home, right? The owner then reported the behavior to the sail maker and informed them they would be looking at other sail makers in the future if no further action was taken.

I mean obviously if a female crew member was being made uncomfortable by some overbearing asshole from some sail company, and that asshole couldn't and wouldn't take no for an answer then the owner, or even someone else on the boat, would step up right? I mean clearly from the story that's what happened, right? (Sarcasm intended. If I'm wrong, then I apologize, but that should have been noted.)

This kind of behavior in any sector is unacceptable, and I certainly applaud the call to the sail companies to step up and clean up their act. Which, btw, also needs to include not only hiring some female class experts, but getting rid of any existing harassing assholes of the type presented in the story.

However If anything is going to truly change, then the owners and fellow crew members also need to step up. When a crew member is harassed (male or female), or even if the person being harassed is part of some other crew and/or a volunteer at the regatta or whatever, then the rest of the crew needs to step in and ensure the behavior ends. If necessary, ensuring that the problem asshole is removed from the boat and indeed the site of the regatta, whether or not the actual harassment happened on the boat. That also damn sure includes reporting the offender to his bosses when they are representing a company in any capacity.

[LB 15 4,649]

3 hours ago, VWAP said:

Not just women

I use to wear speedos on the boat and around the club and being  very fit  and a rather "large" man I use to get comments from both men and women that sometimes made me blush. . One time after going for a swim in the bay I jumped on the rear deck of the commodores boat and started to do some post workout stretching when it turned out  the commodores wife was  standing in the doorway of the aft cabin  watching and then motioned me to come in.  It was a hot sweltering day and she was wearing almost nothing . I went in side and it was quite cool as the air conditioning was on when all of a sudden she, she ........ oh wait...... this is a family site.  ..........nevermind

Yo the man! Afterwards she could hardly move.

[Snaggletooth 2,905]

I dointte see anny gaff markes.                  

[wingssail 39]

The problem of patrimony and sexual harassment in sailing doesn't appear in my area.

I learned years ago that mixed crews were more fun and it controlled the testosterone of the men a bit. On a short race the men tend to try to push the women out of the way (which I don't permit). On an overnighter, after about 15 hours of cold hard sailing, the women are sailing the boat and taking care of the men. So having them aboard is a plus.

In my sailing area the two hottest and most successful big boats are owned by women. One of the boats is always steered by the woman owner and she is the key reason they are usually out in front. On the other boat the woman owner is often driving, but plays a lesser role in running the program. On my own boat my wife is and has been the co-skipper for about 30+ years. I don't always do what she says but I always listen to her and she is usually right. She can and does overrule me if she feels strongly about something (generally safety related) and she knows she has this power. Our crew list of 12 people is about 40% women, including one of my two foredeck persons. On the other boats in the fleet there is a very high percentage of women crew members. The biggest sail loft in the area is owned by a woman.

This is not too different from what it was in the PNW when we sailed there.

I don't know about So Cal, but I think there are lots of places where patrimony and sexual harassment don't seem to be the problem. Keeping women interested and involved in sailing might be, and that's worth working on.

Here are some things we can do:

1. If you are a skipper, put some women on your crew. give them important jobs, recognition, and respect.

2. Do not participate in misogynistic jokes or horseplay

3. Don't go googly eyed and elbow your mate with a snigger when a hot chick passes by on another boat.

4. Don't pee over the side.

5. If you are a hot sport boat full of macho men and think there is no room for wives and kids in your program, you are part of the problem.

5. In general, just make out like this really is a family sport.

 

[Long Tack 1]

One of my female crew members was sexually assaulted twice in the last two years at regattas.   The first one was very serious.  I found out about it right away, and I wanted to call the police as the offender was still at the regatta.  She talked me out of it, and ultimately reached a resolution with the individual, who has now stopped sailing.  The second one was between her and another of my crew; a case of unwanted touching while she was in a compromised position.  Both of the perpetrators were married.  

This kind of thing has got to stop if we are to get more women out sailing.  I personally think these two individuals should have been outed to the fleet and to their spouses at least, to make sure that it doesn't happen again.  In the first incident I think charges should have been laid.  

Is my experience unusual, or is this happening everywhere?  Being drunk is no excuse guys.  How do we make it stop?

Yeah, this is a sock made to protect the innocent.

[duncan (the other one) 670]

31 minutes ago, wingssail said:

4. Don't pee over the side.

Ya what ?   

If you have women handling offshore races (and all the usual discomfort and close-quarters living that entails), pissing off the side is often the least offensive way to deal with a full bladder.

Its that, a hospital piss bottle, or a liberal dose of piss splatter downstairs.

[duncan (the other one) 670]

19 minutes ago, holeinthekite said:

 The second one was between her and another of my crew

..

  How do we make it stop?

 

well - I hope you kicked his arse to the kerb, for one.

[Long Tack 1]

1 minute ago, duncan (the other one) said:

well - I hope you kicked his arse to the kerb, for one.

I didn't find out about that one until the season was over.  He won't be sailing on any boat of mine in the future.

[no shoes 42]

4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

The best thing Owners could do to rein in crotchety pros? Pay them. Don't expect freebies for sail orders. 

I won't have a Pro onboard that I'm not paying, and I do that very judiciously, only when I think the team needs a different voice for a coach.

All of the weird vibes of "I'm so fucking great" etc, end, when you just pay the person for his/her time. win/win.

I would hazard to guess that the Ass in the story would have had a different vibe if he knew the boss could cut him at any point and it would hit his wallet.

+1.  Wow. Stop making sense. I'd sail with this guy. Paid or not. 

[kent_island_sailor 3,441]

Here is a thought - MEN are leaving sailing. Why not find out who is grabbing their asses?

Maybe women have too much common sense to invest in an incredibly expensive and dying hobby.

 

[kc200 18]

Here are some thoughts from a female sailor who really thought this hit home a little to hard, I love this sport and I love all the guys but trust me there are times we wish there were more women involved, it's hard to go to a regatta and be surrounded by 100 men and maybe 8 women. *(expecting some plug about isn't that ratio the best for you though) no its not. So this is just a couple thoughts on the long list of being a female sailor. 

1) We don't care if you pee off the side of the boat but give us a warning, and don't make fun of us when its time for us to go. 

2) Please for the love of god do not touch us our butts, our boobs, our legs we know it wasn't a accedent, don't try to say it was. (we know the difference between a accidental tap and one that was not)

3) Don't ask us to sail with you and then give us the bitch jobs like making sandwiches or scrubbing the boat we are here to sail. (actually happened multiple times to me and friends)

4) Don't make fun of us when we want to get cleaned up and look nice after sailing its what we do. 

5) Treat us the same way you treat males on the boat... but think about your "jokes" before you say them for 2 seconds more I promise it will help .

5) and lastly its not just sailmakers, but they could probably sell more if they had a few more females on staff just saying  

I hope a couple of you read this and maybe think a little more next time. 

[AlR 12]

10 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

Have you not even perused your own site?

The hell are you even talking about?

Remember, the man who published this little lecture was kicked off of Facebook a few months ago for a rant about how his Ex-GF gave up the back door on a first date with some other dude, in a slut shaming attempt.

[Raz'r 3,264]

24 minutes ago, kc200 said:

Here are some thoughts from a female sailor who really thought this hit home a little to hard, I love this sport and I love all the guys but trust me there are times we wish there were more women involved, it's hard to go to a regatta and be surrounded by 100 men and maybe 8 women. *(expecting some plug about isn't that ratio the best for you though) no its not. So this is just a couple thoughts on the long list of being a female sailor. 

1) We don't care if you pee off the side of the boat but give us a warning, and don't make fun of us when its time for us to go. 

2) Please for the love of god do not touch us our butts, our boobs, our legs we know it wasn't a accedent, don't try to say it was. (we know the difference between a accidental tap and one that was not)

3) Don't ask us to sail with you and then give us the bitch jobs like making sandwiches or scrubbing the boat we are here to sail. (actually happened multiple times to me and friends)

4) Don't make fun of us when we want to get cleaned up and look nice after sailing its what we do. 

5) Treat us the same way you treat males on the boat... but think about your "jokes" before you say them for 2 seconds more I promise it will help .

5) and lastly its not just sailmakers, but they could probably sell more if they had a few more females on staff just saying  

I hope a couple of you read this and maybe think a little more next time. 

Thank you

[VWAP 906]

3 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Yo the man! Afterwards she could hardly move.

Glad you took care of her...... I guess.

Is she a regular of yours or did you meet her at the buffet?

[VWAP 906]

5 hours ago, Sam_rosenbaum said:

In any sport when it comes to woman it is male dominated but you can always reach into the depths of internet and find some wacky shit to prove your point

[Gorn FRANTIC!! 403]

11 hours ago, VWAP said:

Not just women

I use to wear speedos on the boat and around the club and being  very fit  and a rather "large" man I use to get comments from both men and women that sometimes made me blush. . One time after going for a swim in the bay I jumped on the rear deck of the commodores boat and started to do some post workout stretching when it turned out  the commodores wife was  standing in the doorway of the aft cabin  watching and then motioned me to come in.  It was a hot sweltering day and she was wearing almost nothing . I went in side and it was quite cool as the air conditioning was on when all of a sudden she, she ........ oh wait...... this is a family site.  ..........nevermind

She sat down and watched you get tag teamed by the commodore and his father? Sounds about right.

[random 160]

18 hours ago, Editor said:

We have all discussed the type and number of problems that have led to the shrinking of the sport. One aspect which has not been widely discussed is that of the overwhelming patriarchy and sexual harassment within the sport. The sailing industry, specifically sailmakers, need to lead the way in change, for a few, not all, are among the worst offenders.

Go to virtually any big boat regatta in the US, the competitors are overwhelming male. Dinghy classes tend to have a better gender balance as there is a lot less male bullshit for females to wade through. However, the sport largely centers around males in every respect. Most are pretty decent people, but the alpha males that sailmakers hire are too often people that do more harm than good for the sport, and in the end, the sailmaking company itself.

Maybe there are females who sell sails or are “class experts” (or as is often said, “experts with no class”), but if there are, they are few and far between, and they are not household names.

Obviously, it has never occurred to the management of all the sailmakers that there are customers, and more importantly potential customers, who really do not enjoy the sailing bro culture that exists within the sailmaking business, and would rather instead purchase sails and have has the “class expert” females.

Perhaps women are not interested in selling sails or being a “class expert”. Maybe they do not want to bother trying to break through the carbon ceiling that the sport has created for women. Or maybe some women want to, and have no chance at either of these jobs because of the obvious gender bias by the owners and management of the sailmaking companies.

Couple this with some too often sexual harassment by rather obnoxious sailmakers and experts with no class and what self respecting woman would want to be part of this culture, to try and change the norms within the sport?

Case in point : expert with no class flies across the country for a one design big boat regatta to help an owner who bought sails from the company. He steps aboard for the first time with his entitled arrogance and wandering eye. He quickly figures out the one female aboard is now his target for the week. As the week progresses he gets more overt in this attention of the female crewmember. Funny comments become overt suggestions. A glance across the dinner table becomes an unwelcome game of footsie under it. He escalates his attempts, is continually rebuffed, but keeps trying. Of course, there's the butt grab whenever possible. Oh yeah, he’s married with a kid at home, so he’s either in an open marriage or he’s just another creepy middle age sailing industry semi bro who goes home empty handed and has to touch himself instead.

There is not going to be a single solution to getting more people to race sailboats more often, but the things that can be fixed should be fixed one by one. So to the owners and CEO’s of sailmakers - here’s a challenge for you - get more (some?) women selling sails and being experts with class. Watch your sales increase and see more people having fun more often. Discuss here.

Title inspiration thanks to the Divinyls

 

There is a definitely an industry culture behind this story.

I recall a sail-maker telling me a 'funny story' about a particular customer who requested a very small alteration to a sail they had recently made.  Convinced that they made a perfect item, they charged the customer for the alteration but did nothing.  When the client gave feedback that the alteration was awesome.  The sail-makers laughed hard as it proved to them that their product was good and that the client was a fuckwit.  Worse was that they were telling to story to another client! 

On another occasion I had a sail maker as crew and he tried to bonk the only female onboard.  Very annoying for her and pissed me off because I had to be told about it, didn't notice when I should have. 

There is also something in that trade that convinces them that not only do they know more then anyone else about sails, but they also know more about tactics, navigation, starting and everything non-sailing as well.  It's endemic.

 

[gewoon ik 45]

18 hours ago, PaulK said:

So perhaps SA should set an example by officially changing the newbie initiation "rules"? 

 

you want to ask for dicks instead of tits?

[Buity 5]

Me being utter;ly European, I have always been amazed by the frequently re-occurring topic of the SCOTW, often being blatantly sexist. Okay, I appreciate it when it's funny and I might admire female prescence, but here SA does prove the point of the racing sailing community being male pig dominated.

[kent_island_sailor 3,441]

7 hours ago, kc200 said:

Here are some thoughts from a female sailor who really thought this hit home a little to hard, I love this sport and I love all the guys but trust me there are times we wish there were more women involved, it's hard to go to a regatta and be surrounded by 100 men and maybe 8 women. *(expecting some plug about isn't that ratio the best for you though) no its not. So this is just a couple thoughts on the long list of being a female sailor. 

1) We don't care if you pee off the side of the boat but give us a warning, and don't make fun of us when its time for us to go. 

2) Please for the love of god do not touch us our butts, our boobs, our legs we know it wasn't a accedent, don't try to say it was. (we know the difference between a accidental tap and one that was not)

3) Don't ask us to sail with you and then give us the bitch jobs like making sandwiches or scrubbing the boat we are here to sail. (actually happened multiple times to me and friends)

4) Don't make fun of us when we want to get cleaned up and look nice after sailing its what we do. 

5) Treat us the same way you treat males on the boat... but think about your "jokes" before you say them for 2 seconds more I promise it will help .

5) and lastly its not just sailmakers, but they could probably sell more if they had a few more females on staff just saying  

I hope a couple of you read this and maybe think a little more next time. 

#5 seems to directly contradict #3 and #4

#2 - WTF kind of boat are you on  (seriously, that shit is not allowed on any boat I am on and I have never seen it tried. OTOH a breaking wave comes across the deck and we might all be in a pile on the leeward side untangling our harnesses)

[crankcall 205]

One I the boats I was asked to crew on, a large for our lake, bought new expensive (since large) inventory from a big name sailmaker (possibly the biggest). The sent two reps from the company for the initial sail to help insure everything fit right and performance was optimal.

The reps included a guy that was a dad with a daughter in junior sail, he was tickled to tell us about how she was progressing and the other was a young lady new to the company. They were both professional, helpful, and a good time was had by all. 

And I'm sure there are some Dbags in the company as well, we didnt meet them yet.

[OutofOffice 86]

2 hours ago, Buity said:

Me being utter;ly European, I have always been amazed by the frequently re-occurring topic of the SCOTW, often being blatantly sexist. Okay, I appreciate it when it's funny and I might admire female prescence, but here SA does prove the point of the racing sailing community being male pig dominated.

How is SCOTW or any other number of pictures/posts different than say a firemen calendar or whatever?

Does anyone here think Spithill’s nude moth photos were sexist? (I don’t know how it ended up on my google images history...honest.)

I’m not condoning being overtly pervy, grabby or douchey. (Those guys don’t typically find themselves being asked back onboard...) I also don’t believe we need to treat women in sailing as some delicate flowers and censor the boat down.

Learn your audience and find their limits. I can make jokes and comments to some sailing girls that I know others won’t like. (Similarly, if you can’t take a light ribbing, you probably won’t be asked back onboard...)

If we’re truly going to get to “gender equality”, then you can’t promote that and at the same time demand a different set of rules for everyone else to play by around you.

As a dude, there are far more crude jokes and comments directed at us on the boat then at women. It’s all fun and games. Someone grabs my ass and depending on who it was, I’m going to be pissed.

 

[Black Sox 664]

10 hours ago, kc200 said:

Here are some thoughts from a female sailor who really thought this hit home a little to hard, I love this sport and I love all the guys but trust me there are times we wish there were more women involved, it's hard to go to a regatta and be surrounded by 100 men and maybe 8 women. *(expecting some plug about isn't that ratio the best for you though) no its not. So this is just a couple thoughts on the long list of being a female sailor. 

1) We don't care if you pee off the side of the boat but give us a warning, and don't make fun of us when its time for us to go. 

2) Please for the love of god do not touch us our butts, our boobs, our legs we know it wasn't a accedent, don't try to say it was. (we know the difference between a accidental tap and one that was not)

3) Don't ask us to sail with you and then give us the bitch jobs like making sandwiches or scrubbing the boat we are here to sail. (actually happened multiple times to me and friends)

4) Don't make fun of us when we want to get cleaned up and look nice after sailing its what we do. 

5) Treat us the same way you treat males on the boat... but think about your "jokes" before you say them for 2 seconds more I promise it will help .

5) and lastly its not just sailmakers, but they could probably sell more if they had a few more females on staff just saying  

I hope a couple of you read this and maybe think a little more next time. 

That looks dangerously like mannerly behaviour, the kind that most mothers wish their sons to exhibit.

And how we (males) should behave at a minimum.

[VWAP 906]

5 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

She sat down and watched you get tag teamed by the commodore and his father? Sounds about right.

You have some strange fantasies 

OK whatever floats your boat. don't forget to wipe the toilet seat and door handle when you finish. Don't want any women getting preganant 

[VWAP 906]

5 hours ago, gewoon ik said:

you want to ask for dicks instead of tits?

[Kack 33]

11 hours ago, kc200 said:

Here are some thoughts from a female sailor who really thought this hit home a little to hard, I love this sport and I love all the guys but trust me there are times we wish there were more women involved, it's hard to go to a regatta and be surrounded by 100 men and maybe 8 women. *(expecting some plug about isn't that ratio the best for you though) no its not. So this is just a couple thoughts on the long list of being a female sailor. 

1) We don't care if you pee off the side of the boat but give us a warning, and don't make fun of us when its time for us to go. 

2) Please for the love of god do not touch us our butts, our boobs, our legs we know it wasn't a accedent, don't try to say it was. (we know the difference between a accidental tap and one that was not)

3) Don't ask us to sail with you and then give us the bitch jobs like making sandwiches or scrubbing the boat we are here to sail. (actually happened multiple times to me and friends)

4) Don't make fun of us when we want to get cleaned up and look nice after sailing its what we do. 

5) Treat us the same way you treat males on the boat... but think about your "jokes" before you say them for 2 seconds more I promise it will help .

5) and lastly its not just sailmakers, but they could probably sell more if they had a few more females on staff just saying  

I hope a couple of you read this and maybe think a little more next time. 

#2  As a guy whose regularly moving around the boat a lot I can assure you that it truly is an accident a lot of the time.  It's a contact sport when it's full on, guys or girls.  Also being the big guy who is generally the crew boss, and stable I feel that I have to protect all my guys and girls.  I've caught people in all kinds of different ways from going over, on in particular where a pit girl was caught off guard on a big day and went feet first through the lifelines, I dove for her and grabbed for anything to keep her from going over, got a big handfull of jacket and boob, pulled her back on the boat.  She thanked me and said "that bruise will be tough to explain to the boyfriend."  Completely unintentional and a reaction that I would hope anyone would have to keep someone on the boat.  Please don't think that everyone is trying to play grabass.      

 

[mad 3,718]

11 hours ago, AlR said:

Remember, the man who published this little lecture was kicked off of Facebook a few months ago for a rant about how his Ex-GF gave up the back door on a first date with some other dude, in a slut shaming attempt.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS

Fuck you Ed and your fucking hypocrisy.

[EYESAILOR 577]

16 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Despite current teaching boys/ men and girls/ women are different. I assume the Ed is referencing women and racing and not sailing in general. If it is racing it is largely men and women are different. Racing is physically demanding, emotionally intense and highly focused, mercilessly competitive with primal banter ... he’ll it doesn’t appeal to many male sailors. 

As you doubtless know, women are merciless, competitive, highly focused and generally in better relative physical shape for our age than men.  We are often accused of being emotionally intense.  I disagree that primal banter makes for success on the race course.  As you point out the competitive demands of sailing doesnt appeal to many male sailors....and so if you really want to win you should have women on board.

Yet so many teams still lack that critical ingredient for success.! 

[Ajax 1,988]

7 minutes ago, Kack said:

#2  As a guy whose regularly moving around the boat a lot I can assure you that it truly is an accident a lot of the time.  It's a contact sport when it's full on, guys or girls.  Also being the big guy who is generally the crew boss, and stable I feel that I have to protect all my guys and girls.  I've caught people in all kinds of different ways from going over, on in particular where a pit girl was caught off guard on a big day and went feet first through the lifelines, I dove for her and grabbed for anything to keep her from going over, got a big handfull of jacket and boob, pulled her back on the boat.  She thanked me and said "that bruise will be tough to explain to the boyfriend."  Completely unintentional and a reaction that I would hope anyone would have to keep someone on the boat.  Please don't think that everyone is trying to play grabass.      

 

Look, I'm not fooling myself into thinking that anyone gives even the tiniest shit about my participation in racing, but this discussion has completely sealed my decision to completely withdraw from racing. 

First, I got rid of all the crew in favor of singlehanded racing. Now, I'm exiting racing altogether.  I've resigned from the sailing club in my river (I was also on the board) and I'm really looking for my replacement on the board of the shorthanded sailing club that I started.

Sailing is my pressure valve and the water is my sanctuary. I'm not going to spend my precious sailing time worrying about triggering people or that I might have unknowingly uttered a micro aggression or being accused of sexual assault for bumping someone's elbow while going below to use the head. I don't want to attend after race parties fretting over my or my crew's alcohol consumption, or anyone's behavior.  It's not because I'm poorly behaved, it's because the definition of offense and assault have been expanded so greatly that nearly any act or spoken word can be considered "offensive" and practically any physical contact can be construed as "assault."

Neither I or any crew that I've ever hosted have ever been accused of improper behavior, ever, but as societal norms shift, it's probably only a matter of time. I won't take the risk that because I act justly, that justice will prevail. I've volunteered my time on multiple club boards, served as race committee, brought piles of newbies...total strangers(!) onto my boat to introduce them to sailing. Men, women, young and old, minorities and whites. When I think of the hospitality I've offered the racing community and sailing in general, but keep being told how people like me are the problem, I can't see any reason to continue or put myself at risk of a "misunderstanding."

As a "fat, middle aged, creepy white guy" it seems that the most positive action I can take to make sailing welcoming to females, is to simply GTFO.

[OutofOffice 86]

48 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

As you doubtless know, women are merciless, competitive, highly focused and generally in better relative physical shape for our age than men.  We are often accused of being emotionally intense.  I disagree that primal banter makes for success on the race course.  As you point out the competitive demands of sailing doesnt appeal to many male sailors....and so if you really want to win you should have women on board.

Yet so many teams still lack that critical ingredient for success.! 

The women skippers I’ve crewed for were more meticulous, attentive and just generally smoother at the helm than men. They also had some of the best insults when you FUBARed something.