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Migrant Caravan

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Crash the border is my term. I use it because because I'm sure many, perhaps most, of them will attempt to enter illegally.

And of course, as usual, you have NO evidence of that coming to fruition.

None.

Nada.

Zero.

Your IQ...

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34 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

What's your answer? Machine-gun them as they run for the border?

Dog loves the smell of napalm in the morning. 

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

Let them in? You want to know if we should let them in?

We shouldn't "let them in."

We should spring our doors open and pull them in and help them find the same dream for the United States of America that our grandparents had for this country.

Are we to do that for an unlimited number of these central Americans?  Where do we draw the line?  Do you even have a line?  Should we have a line?  If so, where is it?

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49 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

What's your answer? Machine-gun them as they run for the border?

I have already given my proposal. Do not process immigrants at the border. All applications for asylum or legal status of any kind would be handled at US embassies or consulates so those seeking to get in legally will chill in Mexico City until we decide their status. Any apprehended at the border would be bussed home the cost of which would be deducted for any aid to their country.

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6 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I think it's just a semantic ploy to call it "advocating open borders."

Saying that we should welcome some groups of immigrants is a very very different thing than saying we should just completely open the borders.

But then, the same group of people think that allowing women to have actual control of their own bodies is "advocating abortion" so there is certainly a tradition of malevolent misdirection.

-DSK

So I'll pose the same question to you as I did to Mikey above.  Where is the line between dragging them in and giving them a new life and "open borders"?  

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1 minute ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Are we to do that for an unlimited number of these central Americans?  Where do we draw the line?  Do you even have a line?  Should we have a line?  If so, where is it?

The population of Central America is about 180,000,000 so that would be the practical upper limit.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:
6 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Are we to do that for an unlimited number of these central Americans?  Where do we draw the line?  Do you even have a line?  Should we have a line?  If so, where is it?

The population of Central America is about 180,000,000 so that would be the practical upper limit.

What about South America then.  Lots of desperately poor folk in S. Murica.  Especially if Venezuela collapses.  I think Mike's basement is going to get a big crowded.

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33 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Dog loves the smell of napalm in the morning. 

And you want to open the border but your not for open borders.

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6 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What about South America then.  Lots of desperately poor folk in S. Murica.  Especially if Venezuela collapses.  I think Mike's basement is going to get a big crowded.

Burn this bitch down!

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23 minutes ago, Dog said:

I have already given my proposal. Do not process immigrants at the border. All applications for asylum or legal status of any kind would be handled at US embassies or consulates so those seeking to get in legally will chill in Mexico City until we decide their status. Any apprehended at the border would be bussed home the cost of which would be deducted for any aid to their country.

So, you're a cheap bastard as well as being a horrible human being? Damn dude. 

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On a slight dodge, am I the only one who is surprised that Bono/U2 hasn't released a single titled 'Migrant Caravan?'

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Trump sending 5200 troops to border "Operation Faithful Patriot".....FFS,  what could possibly go wrong?........

OTOH if Bolton had his way  he wouldn't  send any troops he'd send in A10's  or Drones......... problem solved by lunchtime.........

Looks like we're in for a Mexican stand off............ :rolleyes:

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9 minutes ago, Deplorable1 said:

Bruce Springsteen did a solo tour spouting the plight of the migrant farm workers about 20 years ago. I went but was surprised by his diehard fans booing and then walking out. It was a political rally and the worst concert I’ve ever attended. 

Bruce Springsteen could protest crust on bread and it wouldn't be the worst concert I ever attended.  You ever seen Celine Deion just cause you wanted to get laid?  You either need to get out more or stay in all the time.  

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13 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Trump sending 5200 troops to border "Operation Faithful Patriot".....FFS,  what could possibly go wrong?........

OTOH if Bolton had his way  he wouldn't  send any troops he'd send in A10's  or Drones......... problem solved by lunchtime.........

Looks like we're in for a Mexican stand off............ :rolleyes:

We at least know the channel for news:

 

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18 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:
29 minutes ago, Deplorable1 said:

Bruce Springsteen did a solo tour spouting the plight of the migrant farm workers about 20 years ago. I went but was surprised by his diehard fans booing and then walking out. It was a political rally and the worst concert I’ve ever attended. 

Bruce Springsteen could protest crust on bread and it wouldn't be the worst concert I ever attended.  You ever seen Celine Deion just cause you wanted to get laid?  You either need to get out more or stay in all the time.  

Why make it tough on yourself? Keep a DVD of "Titanic" handy

-DSK

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4 hours ago, Dog said:

I have already given my proposal. Do not process immigrants at the border. All applications for asylum or legal status of any kind would be handled at US embassies or consulates so those seeking to get in legally will chill in Mexico City until we decide their status. Any apprehended at the border would be bussed home the cost of which would be deducted for any aid to their country.

"Chill in Mexico city"? Are you.......... Never mind.:rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, Dog said:

Fuck me....Now if we don't open the gates and invite them in we are forcing them to break our laws.

You're late to the airport, you have to make a flight for a key business deal. Maybe you speed a bit, go through a yellow light. But you make your plane and you're able to add value to the economy by making your meeting.

You did put some lives in danger by speeding, or maybe checking your phone while driving, or hitting that yellow light. Do you consider yourself a criminal?

 

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10 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

^^^^^^ A favorite.  

My ex brother-in-law gave me a "Highway equalizer" for Christmas one year. It looked like a radar jammer that was velcroed to the dashboard. But it had machine gun, atomic bomb, Star trek phaser, and a few other sound effects that you could push when some asshole cut you off, or just stopped for no fucking reason..... It only sounded inside the truck, but I tried to figure out how to wire it to an external speaker to really let people know how I felt.... (I was 24).... Probably thankfully I was unable to externalize my feelings.....

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AM radio, so?  I assume it was similar to the British doing Pirate Radio.  Do you have a point?

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2 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

AM radio, so?  I assume it was similar to the British doing Pirate Radio.  Do you have a point/

It's under his hat.

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4 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

It's under his hat.

The small one for his head or the really, really, really, small thumb cap for his other head?

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5 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

The small one for his head or the really, really, really, small thumb cap for his other head?

The one on top of his neck....

 The one furthest north from the ground.

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What about South America then.  Lots of desperately poor folk in S. Murica.  Especially if Venezuela collapses.  I think Mike's basement is going to get a big crowded.

You have made the cardinal sin of futurism. You have extrapolated someone else's future without extrapolating your own.

West of the Mississippi in the USA is one of the world's most tenuous population centers with respect to potential water scarcity. Shifting populations from water-wealthy East Coast to water-scarce West Coast, coupled with increasing agricultural demands, could create some "desperately poor folk" in the USA, potentially tens of millions of them. Add in a little political unrest during some time of extended drought, and you have a tinderbox.

The basements in Mexico and Canada may get a bit crowded with "Murican refugees.

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

So I'll pose the same question to you as I did to Mikey above.  Where is the line between dragging them in and giving them a new life and "open borders"?  

As long as we have the demand for low-skilled labor, we need the immigrants. We have a desperate shortage of legal, low-skilled labor in the USA.

https://globalriskinsights.com/2017/09/labor-shortage-united-states-dire-issue/

When I read things like what you write JBSF, it seems that you are writing your words in a fact-vacuum, where external realities don't influence the theory of your thought.

If you owned manufacturing and you couldn't find labor, you probably wouldn't write what you did above. Talk to someone who manufactures things and ask them about the "line" in question.

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5 hours ago, Dog said:

I have already given my proposal. Do not process immigrants at the border. All applications for asylum or legal status of any kind would be handled at US embassies or consulates so those seeking to get in legally will chill in Mexico City until we decide their status. Any apprehended at the border would be bussed home the cost of which would be deducted for any aid to their country.

This is curious.

So according to you, Ellis Island was fine, but doing roughly the same thing for brown-skinned people is not fine.

Why?

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Just now, mikewof said:

As long as we have the demand for low-skilled labor, we need the immigrants. We have a desperate shortage of legal, low-skilled labor in the USA.

https://globalriskinsights.com/2017/09/labor-shortage-united-states-dire-issue/

When I read things like what you write JBSF, it seems that you are writing your words in a fact-vacuum, where external realities don't influence the theory of your thought.

If you owned manufacturing and you couldn't find labor, you probably wouldn't write what you did above. Talk to someone who manufactures things and ask them about the "line" in question.

Congrats, You have joined the ranks here who are conflating legal immigration with illegal immigration.  If these people show up at our border and "demand" asylum, they will be illegal immigrants because they will be lying about their reasons for needing asylum - given Mexico has already offered them safety and security.  Their reasons for needing to move on to the US border have now officially ended.  To continue on makes them pure economic migrants at that point because the reasons for asylum have been removed.  

And I'm fine with economic migrants.  We need them.  The line is over there.  They can get in that line and wait their turn like every other legal migrant who came into came here seeking a better life.  

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4 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Congrats, You have joined the ranks here who are conflating legal immigration with illegal immigration.  If these people show up at our border and "demand" asylum, they will be illegal immigrants because they will be lying about their reasons for needing asylum - given Mexico has already offered them safety and security.  Their reasons for needing to move on to the US border have now officially ended.  To continue on makes them pure economic migrants at that point because the reasons for asylum have been removed.  

And I'm fine with economic migrants.  We need them.  The line is over there.  They can get in that line and wait their turn like every other legal migrant who came into came here seeking a better life.  

Well, if they are illegally claiming asylum, then the feds will figure that out right quick, right?

 

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Well, if they are illegally claiming asylum, then the feds will figure that out right quick, right?

 

It depends on what you mean by "quick".  If you mean 2-5 years, then yes - that will be quick.  In the meantime, we will either have to feed and house them for that time or they are released into the wild in the US never to be seen again.  

Great system we have here, eh?

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20 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Great system we have here, eh?

Yup, and until you legally change it, that should be the system abided by. 

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25 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

It depends on what you mean by "quick".  If you mean 2-5 years, then yes - that will be quick.  In the meantime, we will either have to feed and house them for that time or they are released into the wild in the US never to be seen again.  

Great system we have here, eh?

Sucks that Republicans won't fund the courts to speed up the deportations. I wonder why?

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35 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Well, if they are illegally claiming asylum, then the feds will figure that out right quick, right?

 

is that like using an einstein visa because you've got nice tits? did the feds prosecute that one yet? or are we falling back to the current Republican talking point of "if you get away with it it's legal"? Jeffreaux spends more time walking back than Ginger Rogers did.

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48 minutes ago, mikewof said:

This is curious.

So according to you, Ellis Island was fine, but doing roughly the same thing for brown-skinned people is not fine.

Why?

Ellis Island was closed and other centers opened. 

The laws also changed.

Congress passed quota laws and the Immigration Act of 1924, which sharply reduced the number of newcomers allowed into the country and also enabled immigrants to be processed at U.S. consulates abroad. After 1924, Ellis Island switched from a processing center to serving other purposes, such as a detention and deportation center for illegal immigrants, a hospital for wounded soldiers during World War II and a Coast Guard training center. In November 1954, the last detainee, a Norwegian merchant seaman, was released and Ellis Island officially closed.

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6 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

soreass is worried about leprosy. and small pox.

He should be worried about the clap, it's the thing to pass around at the assisted living centers...

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Congrats, You have joined the ranks here who are conflating legal immigration with illegal immigration.  If these people show up at our border and "demand" asylum, they will be illegal immigrants because they will be lying about their reasons for needing asylum - given Mexico has already offered them safety and security.  Their reasons for needing to move on to the US border have now officially ended.  To continue on makes them pure economic migrants at that point because the reasons for asylum have been removed.  

And I'm fine with economic migrants.  We need them.  The line is over there.  They can get in that line and wait their turn like every other legal migrant who came into came here seeking a better life.  

Wait, huh? You asked me where the "line" should be, I responded, and then you accuse me of wanting to break the law in order to alleviate our labor shortage.

WTF?

Obviously the "line" to which you and Dog refer doesn't work, because duh, we still have the labor shortage.

Just shitcan the damned expensive line, process the law abiding workers, don't give them an incentive to break the law, and instead of wasting money with ICE that is tasked to deal primarily with lawful immigrants, spend the on actually keeping out the lawless.

And you mention "economic migrants" like that's a default. "Economic migration" is the most efficient kind of migration, it's free market migration! Think about it JBSF, you have a labor shortage in one area of the country, who can move there to work most easily and cheapest? The American born family of five with a mortgage and roots? They're going to move across the country to work for minimum wage? Or the hardworking economic migrants who have nothing to tie them down and can get a terrific quality of life increase with minimum wage?

The whole point of political asylum is a way to jump ahead in the ridiculous, artificial construct of "the line." If there is no line, then there is no need to jump ahead. Just process the migrants, give them a legal pathway to work and to citizenship like we have always done, and let economics guide immigration and hiring, instead of walls and broken policy, huh? When we no longer have a labor shortage, then we can stop issuing entrance. Assuming Americans abide by hiring laws, then the lack of demand will control the supply.

But honestly JBSF, that's not even a given. The entire planet is fast moving to only replacement rate population growth. It is possible and even likely inthefuture.com that a well-run USA economy will always have a labor shortage because our labor not only generates its own product demand, but the U.S. Economy has organ I its efficiency with new labor.

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10 minutes ago, mikewof said:

And you mention "economic migrants" like that's a bad thing. "Economic migration" is the best kind of migration, it's free market migration! Think about it JBSF, you have a labor shortage in one area of the country, who can move there to work most easily and cheapest?

JBSF is an economic migrant.

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1 hour ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
2 hours ago, mikewof said:

And you mention "economic migrants" like that's a bad thing. "Economic migration" is the best kind of migration, it's free market migration! Think about it JBSF, you have a labor shortage in one area of the country, who can move there to work most easily and cheapest?

JBSF is an economic migrant.

Yes, and if you and woofers would bother to read what I actually fucking WRITE, rather than what you think I think..... you would see that I clearly and unambiguously support economic migration to the US.  Jesus you're a fucking dolt!

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33 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yes, and if you and woofers would bother to read what I actually fucking WRITE, rather than what you think I think..... you would see that I clearly and unambiguously support economic migration to the US.  Jesus you're a fucking dolt!

I didn't write that you are against it, rather that you're missing the opportunity of it.

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JBSF and Dog do either or each of you have an opinion about our national labor shortage?

I have some personal experience with it, and it sucks. I was laid off from my government gig several months ago, and being a physicist with a very specialized set of expertises, it hasn't been easy to get rehired. The labor shortage for low-skilled employees is apparently so intense in the USA, that it seems the manufacturing industry is having to package whole R&D and manufacturing projects and send them overseas. Ten years ago, I could get an R&D gig in my area. Now, I have had offers to do what I do in China, but nothing in the USA. I don't want to move to China.

So until someone offers me a new gig, I've been doing my entrepreneurial thing, and making a little progress into getting myself back up to my original salary. Consulting is no big deal, I can do that all day. But manufacturing -- where my expertise is -- more difficult. I can come up with new products, but I have had a devil of a time finding anyone to make them. I can offer a big salary, but I don't currently have any high-margin products to be able to justify $30/hour employees ... maybe someday, but not now.

The products I have on the dock need $15/hour employees, minimum wage in my state is $10.20/hour. So at $15/hour, plus the overhead, I can get some products made that can be marketed, but finding those employees hasn't been easy, because they need a good bit of training to actually make the stuff. It's not like fast food or sewing or roofing or concrete jacking, where there is a set of defined skills and an existing labor pool from which to pull. It's more like an obscure set of manufacturing methods that can allow the products to grow and mature. I could hire a hard-working local, but the locals in my state don't need $15/hour work, they tend to own land and property, and the things that people with deep roots tend to own. There are a lot of midwesterners coming here to smoke weed, but they can pull $25/hour just driving food around for Uber. I could hire a few undocumented workers and finally get some product out of the door, but I won't break the law.

My only recourse is to be "420 Friendly" and hire guys who like to be high, and then literally adjust the products to that very few operations are required that can cause personal injury. It means going somewhat Amish in manufacturing. A pneumatic rivet gun is okay, but not cutting blades and no hot knives. Folding and thin sheet cutting is okay, but not anything requiring a fume hood. But the reality is that the products can't get out the door, I can't hold onto labor because my margins are insufficient to allow for higher paid employees. People talk about "putting America back to work" without really understanding what the fuck they actually mean ... America is working its ass off at the moment, and we're still losing industry because our wage-classes seem to be getting more lopsided by the year, and we're turning into a service and high-concept economy whether we like it or not. You can hire a really great Solidity coder if you cough up the $60/hour, but good luck finding a line of production workers for 1/4 that pay unless you don't mind going into the business of training employees and then watching them go to the door a few weeks later.

JBSF and Dog, you talk about making these potential employees "wait in line" without seeming to acknowledge why there is a line to begin with. What is the purpose of this freaking line that you want people to wait? If we need to sell a product (i.e. American manufacturing) then why are maniacs like you two forcing the customers (i.e. these potential workers) to wait in line? WTF dudes?

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7 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Ellis Island was closed and other centers opened. 

The laws also changed.

Congress passed quota laws and the Immigration Act of 1924, which sharply reduced the number of newcomers allowed into the country and also enabled immigrants to be processed at U.S. consulates abroad. After 1924, Ellis Island switched from a processing center to serving other purposes, such as a detention and deportation center for illegal immigrants, a hospital for wounded soldiers during World War II and a Coast Guard training center. In November 1954, the last detainee, a Norwegian merchant seaman, was released and Ellis Island officially closed.

do you know WHY those laws were changed?   the darkies from africa and slant eyes from Asia were coming over  much more and some people didn't like that too much....,sounds familiar 

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9 hours ago, mikewof said:

You're late to the airport, you have to make a flight for a key business deal. Maybe you speed a bit, go through a yellow light. But you make your plane and you're able to add value to the economy by making your meeting.

You did put some lives in danger by speeding, or maybe checking your phone while driving, or hitting that yellow light. Do you consider yourself a criminal?

 

Should the cops ticket speeders if they are on their way to a business meeting? Should speeding to a business meeting be allowed?

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

JBSF and Dog do either or each of you have an opinion about our national labor shortage?

I have some personal experience with it, and it sucks. I was laid off from my government gig several months ago, and being a physicist with a very specialized set of expertises, it hasn't been easy to get rehired. The labor shortage for low-skilled employees is apparently so intense in the USA, that it seems the manufacturing industry is having to package whole R&D and manufacturing projects and send them overseas. Ten years ago, I could get an R&D gig in my area. Now, I have had offers to do what I do in China, but nothing in the USA. I don't want to move to China.

So until someone offers me a new gig, I've been doing my entrepreneurial thing, and making a little progress into getting myself back up to my original salary. Consulting is no big deal, I can do that all day. But manufacturing -- where my expertise is -- more difficult. I can come up with new products, but I have had a devil of a time finding anyone to make them. I can offer a big salary, but I don't currently have any high-margin products to be able to justify $30/hour employees ... maybe someday, but not now.

The products I have on the dock need $15/hour employees, minimum wage in my state is $10.20/hour. So at $15/hour, plus the overhead, I can get some products made that can be marketed, but finding those employees hasn't been easy, because they need a good bit of training to actually make the stuff. It's not like fast food or sewing or roofing or concrete jacking, where there is a set of defined skills and an existing labor pool from which to pull. It's more like an obscure set of manufacturing methods that can allow the products to grow and mature. I could hire a hard-working local, but the locals in my state don't need $15/hour work, they tend to own land and property, and the things that people with deep roots tend to own. There are a lot of midwesterners coming here to smoke weed, but they can pull $25/hour just driving food around for Uber. I could hire a few undocumented workers and finally get some product out of the door, but I won't break the law.

My only recourse is to be "420 Friendly" and hire guys who like to be high, and then literally adjust the products to that very few operations are required that can cause personal injury. It means going somewhat Amish in manufacturing. A pneumatic rivet gun is okay, but not cutting blades and no hot knives. Folding and thin sheet cutting is okay, but not anything requiring a fume hood. But the reality is that the products can't get out the door, I can't hold onto labor because my margins are insufficient to allow for higher paid employees. People talk about "putting America back to work" without really understanding what the fuck they actually mean ... America is working its ass off at the moment, and we're still losing industry because our wage-classes seem to be getting more lopsided by the year, and we're turning into a service and high-concept economy whether we like it or not. You can hire a really great Solidity coder if you cough up the $60/hour, but good luck finding a line of production workers for 1/4 that pay unless you don't mind going into the business of training employees and then watching them go to the door a few weeks later.

JBSF and Dog, you talk about making these potential employees "wait in line" without seeming to acknowledge why there is a line to begin with. What is the purpose of this freaking line that you want people to wait? If we need to sell a product (i.e. American manufacturing) then why are maniacs like you two forcing the customers (i.e. these potential workers) to wait in line? WTF dudes?

IMHO what we need is a well oiled guest worker program where admission is driven by market forces and where applicants are screened and have a path to legal residency and citizenship.

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1 hour ago, dacapo said:

do you know WHY those laws were changed?   the darkies from africa and slant eyes from Asia were coming over  much more and some people didn't like that too much....,sounds familiar 

Why do you insist on using racist terms in describing others.  I notice that one of the other posters insists on referring to brown skinned people.

I expect laws to be applied without regard to race.

 

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

JBSF and Dog do either or each of you have an opinion about our national labor shortage?

I have some personal experience with it, and it sucks. I was laid off from my government gig several months ago, and being a physicist with a very specialized set of expertises, it hasn't been easy to get rehired. The labor shortage for low-skilled employees is apparently so intense in the USA, that it seems the manufacturing industry is having to package whole R&D and manufacturing projects and send them overseas. Ten years ago, I could get an R&D gig in my area. Now, I have had offers to do what I do in China, but nothing in the USA. I don't want to move to China.

So until someone offers me a new gig, I've been doing my entrepreneurial thing, and making a little progress into getting myself back up to my original salary. Consulting is no big deal, I can do that all day. But manufacturing -- where my expertise is -- more difficult. I can come up with new products, but I have had a devil of a time finding anyone to make them. I can offer a big salary, but I don't currently have any high-margin products to be able to justify $30/hour employees ... maybe someday, but not now.

The products I have on the dock need $15/hour employees, minimum wage in my state is $10.20/hour. So at $15/hour, plus the overhead, I can get some products made that can be marketed, but finding those employees hasn't been easy, because they need a good bit of training to actually make the stuff. It's not like fast food or sewing or roofing or concrete jacking, where there is a set of defined skills and an existing labor pool from which to pull. It's more like an obscure set of manufacturing methods that can allow the products to grow and mature. I could hire a hard-working local, but the locals in my state don't need $15/hour work, they tend to own land and property, and the things that people with deep roots tend to own. There are a lot of midwesterners coming here to smoke weed, but they can pull $25/hour just driving food around for Uber. I could hire a few undocumented workers and finally get some product out of the door, but I won't break the law.

My only recourse is to be "420 Friendly" and hire guys who like to be high, and then literally adjust the products to that very few operations are required that can cause personal injury. It means going somewhat Amish in manufacturing. A pneumatic rivet gun is okay, but not cutting blades and no hot knives. Folding and thin sheet cutting is okay, but not anything requiring a fume hood. But the reality is that the products can't get out the door, I can't hold onto labor because my margins are insufficient to allow for higher paid employees. People talk about "putting America back to work" without really understanding what the fuck they actually mean ... America is working its ass off at the moment, and we're still losing industry because our wage-classes seem to be getting more lopsided by the year, and we're turning into a service and high-concept economy whether we like it or not. You can hire a really great Solidity coder if you cough up the $60/hour, but good luck finding a line of production workers for 1/4 that pay unless you don't mind going into the business of training employees and then watching them go to the door a few weeks later.

JBSF and Dog, you talk about making these potential employees "wait in line" without seeming to acknowledge why there is a line to begin with. What is the purpose of this freaking line that you want people to wait? If we need to sell a product (i.e. American manufacturing) then why are maniacs like you two forcing the customers (i.e. these potential workers) to wait in line? WTF dudes?

Aren't you concerned that after exporting the manufacturing jobs and now, apparently, the high tech development that your scenario leaves little to do but study art history in the US?

It also seems that you are losing the capability of manufacturing much above wrought iron because you can't trust your workers to follow simple safety rules to minimize injury to themselves.  It's OK though, they get Workmens Comp if they do.

 

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52 minutes ago, Dog said:

IMHO what we need is a well oiled guest worker program where admission is driven by market forces and where applicants are screened and have a path to legal residency and citizenship.

Ever try to use the guest worker visa program? I have. It's cumbersome at best. It is designed for large corporations, not small businesses.

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Ever try to use the guest worker visa program? I have. It's cumbersome at best. It is designed for large corporations, not small businesses.

That's a problem.

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4 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Ever try to use the guest worker visa program? I have. It's cumbersome at best. It is designed for large corporations, not small businesses.

Good.  Then there is a place for you to begin developing a rational temporary immigration system. 

Given the number of Nortenos who cross in and out periodically it would be great for the actual border society.

 

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42 minutes ago, Saorsa said:
2 hours ago, dacapo said:

do you know WHY those laws were changed?   the darkies from africa and slant eyes from Asia were coming over  much more and some people didn't like that too much....,sounds familiar 

Why do you insist on using racist terms in describing others.  I notice that one of the other posters insists on referring to brown skinned people.

I expect laws to be applied without regard to race.

What he's describing is a matter of historical fact.

-DSK

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

What he's describing is a matter of historical fact.

-DSK

facts don;t matter to him

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Racist Mexico preventing caravaners from realizing the American Dream:

 

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23 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

What he's describing is a matter of historical fact.

-DSK

Yes, and we had a chinese exclusion law.   It's his (and your) use of racist terms that I object to.  They seem to be most used by only a few on the board.  You might look to their political leanings to decide who is racist.

 

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THE CARAVAN OF CRAP

By Bob Lonsberry © 2018

The Hondurans in the caravan, the 7,000 people walking north to America, where do they go to the bathroom?

And eat and sleep and store their clothes?

And how is it that after a week on the road they are clean and their hair and clothes are well kept?

How is any of this possible?

And why do these people, supposedly fleeing intolerable conditions in their homeland, carry little flags from their homeland and break into its national anthem when the TV cameras show up?

And speaking of which, for oppressed people, they all seem to be pretty well fed, well-groomed and well dressed. Their hair is neat and newly cut, their clothes are clean and in good repair, and they are
built like people who have had ample nutrition all their lives, being well developed and, many of them, overweight.

And none of them look dirty or unkempt, like they had been sleeping on the ground for the last week.

There’s just nothing in any of this that makes sense.

Supposedly, these several thousand people spontaneously decided to leave Honduras, walking north in a group, hoping to trek the length of gang-plagued Mexico and present themselves as refugees and prospective Democrats at the American border.

Which, again, makes no sense whatsoever.

And leaves a lot of big questions unanswered, and ignored by the press. Such as, who organized this? Who is paying for it? How have they covered 500 miles in a week?

Seriously. Any number of American “reporters” have walked beside a sympathetic walker and talked about how this particular woman and her children had trekked half a thousand miles over the last week or so.

That’s 71 miles a day.

The best soldiers through history have been able to march 25 miles a day.

How have 7,000 people been fed and watered? And how have they gone to the bathroom? If the average person across the world produces about a pound of solid waste a day, that means that these folks are somehow disposing of more than three tons of feces each day.

That’s a heck of a lot of crap, even for a Central American roadway.

Provisioning such an army of people – the equivalent of 10 combat battalions in most of the world’s militaries – is a large task. Transporting and distributing the food and water necessary to keep those people moving is a massive chore which the press says nothing about.

The entire enterprise, as a spontaneous ad hoc event, is implausible.

As an orchestrated international attempt to influence an American election, it starts to make sense.

And ought to alarm us.

Unless it’s only Russians we don’t want screwing with our democracy.

Unfortunately, none of this has made the evening news. It’s almost as if the press, in whatever scheme is afoot, gladly accepts its role as propagandists to the American people.

Every story is sympathetic, as if an attempt to enlist viewers and readers in this caravan and the politics it symbolizes.

And so the story is not about an orchestrated attempt to manipulate electoral opinion and violate the borders and laws of the United States, it is about compassion and Trump and xenophobia and racism. It
is the October surprise, it is the Blue Wave.

And it is all nonsense.

Because all of these people, if legitimate, have the ability to apply for American asylum in their own country – as do the residents of most nations of the world. We have consulates and embassies for a reason, and this is one of those reasons.

We also have laws and an oath of office for a reason.

Laws, so that “we the people” through our elected representatives clearly and systematically govern our society. Law is the means by which the people express and exercise their sovereignty. Disobedience
to law is disobedience to the will of the people, it is the subverting of their sovereignty and franchise.

Breaking the law is denying you the vote. Your vote elects representatives – lets you pick the country’s direction – and the representatives write the law. If that law is ignored, your representation becomes meaningless.

You get screwed.

And the oath of office?

Members of Congress – even Democrats – swear an oath to “bear true faith and allegiance” to the Constitution, which establishes our system of laws and specifically charges the Congress with making the
rules of naturalization and immigration.

Who comes across the border and under what conditions they can stay is a constitutional responsibility of the Congress. That is to be determined by a congressional vote, not by a Honduran mob.

Failure to insist on that – even for Democrats – is a violation of your congressman’s oath of office.

So there is not a Democrat or Republican response to this travelling army of invaders – there is only an American response.

And that is: Turn around and go home.

Because the law of the United States does not allow a mass entry like this. The law does not declare the borders open.

If Democrats and progressives don’t like that, they can try to change the law. If America’s progressives want open borders and believe all the world’s people have a right to live in the United States – as they
say they do – then they should adjust immigration law accordingly.

But until then, if they are to keep their oaths of office, they must stand for the law and the border.

And they must tell their surrogates to turn around and go home.

Because this caravan is nothing more than a bunch of political crap.

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2 hours ago, Dog said:

Should the cops ticket speeders if they are on their way to a business meeting? Should speeding to a business meeting be allowed?

Speeding should not be allowed, cops should ticket speeders.

Are you a criminal since you've exceeded the speed limit or sped you a bit when you saw a yellow?

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

Speeding should not be allowed, cops should ticket speeders.

Are you a criminal since you've exceeded the speed limit or sped you a bit when you saw a yellow?

It's certainly breaking the law and I agree with you that speeding laws should be enforced. We disagree in that I think the same for immigration laws.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Aren't you concerned that after exporting the manufacturing jobs and now, apparently, the high tech development that your scenario leaves little to do but study art history in the US?

It also seems that you are losing the capability of manufacturing much above wrought iron because you can't trust your workers to follow simple safety rules to minimize injury to themselves.  It's OK though, they get Workmens Comp if they do.

 

People get hurt when they make stuff, it's been that way for thousands of years. Low wage workers get hurt, workplace safety is necessary and expensive. Workers often, but not always, tend to transition out of risky jobs to less risky jobs as they gain experience.

Workman's comp is one of the most successful highlights in thy U.S. economy, it has been profitable for industry and a model for other countries. How you can have a snark about this system is beyond me.

The USA has a worker shortage, we need workers. 

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14 minutes ago, Dog said:

It's certainly breaking the law and I agree with you that speeding laws should be enforced. We disagree in that I think the same for immigration laws.

To the contrary. You made that up.

I believe that illegal hiring and illegal working laws should be enforced. But we don't enforce illegal hiring laws, that's a crime of the Caucasians. If we enforced it, our economy would teeter on the edge of collapse and we would be forced to reform the ridiculous entry rules that you hold dear.

And you speeding and looking at your phone is a far worse crime than someone sneaking in to work. One action creates no victims and has been proven to help make us wealthy, the other has been proven to cost the lives of untold innocents every year.

Aren't you a physician? When was the last time an ambulance rushed in victims of some poor schmuck working to feed his wife and baby?

Now, are you a criminal when you speed or look at your phone while driving?

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13 minutes ago, mikewof said:

People get hurt when they make stuff, it's been that way for thousands of years. Low wage workers get hurt, workplace safety is necessary and expensive. Workers often, but not always, tend to transition out of risky jobs to less risky jobs as they gain experience.

Workman's comp is one of the most successful highlights in thy U.S. economy, it has been profitable for industry and a model for other countries. How you can have a snark about this system is beyond me.

The USA has a worker shortage, we need workers. 

If you have to send R&D overseas, the spinoffs from that won't be here.  Those spinoffs are where the real progress is made.

And yet we have a population that doesn't like to put the work in.  I still hear 'girls don't do math'.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dog said:

IMHO what we need is a well oiled guest worker program where admission is driven by market forces and where applicants are screened and have a path to legal residency and citizenship.

And yet, your party won’t do it. Why? Racism.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

And yet, your party won’t do it. Why? Racism.

I don't have a party.

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

That's a problem.

So fix it!

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Just now, Dog said:

I don't have a party.

Lol

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4 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

And yet we have a population that doesn't like to put the work in.  I still hear 'girls don't do math'.

 

 

That’s just plain BS. American workers work more hours than just about any other nations workers. 

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10 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

That’s just plain BS. American workers work more hours than just about any other nations workers. 

Work smarter, not harder.

Measure product, not hours.

 

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yes, and if you and woofers would bother to read what I actually fucking WRITE, rather than what you think I think

It's not others fault your writing can't effectively convey what you think, petal.

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13 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Work smarter, not harder.

Measure product, not hours.

 

Keep playing back Rush talking points. It’s your level.

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38 minutes ago, Dog said:

I don't have a party.

I thought it was YOUR party, and you were crying 'cuz you want to?

-DSK

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 This whole immigration kerfuffle is purely political.

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20 hours ago, Saorsa said:

There are quite a few American cities which, taking only one ethnic group, would be the most populace city in the country of origin.

BTW, how many exclusively speak Polish?  How many have a working vocabulary?

 

Quite a few. Same with the Greeks and Chinese (not Polish but you get it).

They all do eventually integrate. Sometimes it takes a generation. I used to walk to school with a girl named Tina Asido. She was Filipino. Her mom spoke 0 'Mericun. Her dad was fluent.

I worked with a guy name Joseph Buch. He got here via the London Railroad. He was 'ok' at 'Mericun. "At this moment" was a big part of his speak. He was moody, stubborn and fun to work with.

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7 minutes ago, Sean said:

 This whole immigration kerfuffle is purely political.

Of course it is.

So is the gay marriage kerfuffle

And the voter fraud kerfuffle

And the "War On Coal" kerfuffle

And the 'Abortion Is Murder" kerfuffle

And the tax cut kerfuffle..... well that one has pretty serious implications for all of us, going forward

The Republican Party, in my lifetime, has been a loose coalition of hate-filled kooks that vote against their own self-interest. The last group of them, the hard-core segregationists, left the Democratic Party in disgust about the time Nixon came along, and he eagerly scooped them in. Since then, Republicans have fairly steadily gained influence, with some swings back and forth, and used their power to reduce democracy, reduce citizens rights, and of course increase profits for their patrons. Karl Rove formalized the tactics, practically wrote a textbook about how to fan the flames of wedge-issue voters while reducing the franchise to citizens overall.

For the last ~20 years, the Democrats have been trying to play catch-up and Bill Clinton was a master at gathering corporate sponsors... which IMHO is why the Repubs hate-hate-hate him so-o much, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but every prima donna truly despises the one who follows them and does their schtick better than they do. Of course they hate every Democrat so it's also part of the regular program. Obama tried to play the statesman/bipartisan game and got clobbered (goddam Kenyan!) for his pains.

I thought the country had reached a tipping point with Pres Bush 2 and VP Cheney. Maybe we did and have just been sinking further since then. OTOH if we have political bombings and a President advocating violence (which he's done since before he got elected) maybe it's desperation about the pendulum swinging back?

-DSK

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57 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

If you have to send R&D overseas, the spinoffs from that won't be here.  Those spinoffs are where the real progress is made.

And yet we have a population that doesn't like to put the work in.  I still hear 'girls don't do math'.

The two have nothing to do with each other. We have plenty of people here who can do R&D. The reason it often has to be done overseas is because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure. We can do some work here, and we do it, especially the coding and industrial design.

But when you make a competitive product that has to be better than the current state-of-the-art, your R&D is tied to the manufacturing, and the delivery times and milestones are razor thin. The market expects it now. It's often too difficult for smaller companies to manage a complicated project if they can't control manufacturing, so they are often forced to let the manufacturers bundle in the development. Fifteen years ago, China and Vietnam were looked at as production destinations, but now the R&D is often too expensive or impossible to hit deadline if the U.S. maker doesn't just let them bundle that with the manufacturing. They supply the specifications based on what they know can be accomplished overseas, and they leave it at that.

Innovation is murdered when you can't stumble on some serendipity because your lab has been lobotomized.

 

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7 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The two have nothing to do with each other. We have plenty of people here who can do R&D. The reason it often has to be done overseas is because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure. We can do some work here, and we do it, especially the coding and industrial design.

But when you make a competitive product that has to be better than the current state-of-the-art, your R&D is tied to the manufacturing, and the delivery times and milestones are razor thin. The market expects it now. It's often too difficult for smaller companies to manage a complicated project if they can't control manufacturing, so they are often forced to let the manufacturers bundle in the development. Fifteen years ago, China and Vietnam were looked at as production destinations, but now the R&D is often too expensive or impossible to hit deadline if the U.S. maker doesn't just let them bundle that with the manufacturing. They supply the specifications based on what they know can be accomplished overseas, and they leave it at that.

Innovation is murdered when you can't stumble on some serendipity because your lab has been lobotomized.

 

Soreass doesn't care as long as he gets cheap shit from Walmart, and his SS checks on time. Oh, and a platform for complaining about how lazy kids are these days. 

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25 minutes ago, Raz'r said:
33 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The two have nothing to do with each other. We have plenty of people here who can do R&D. The reason it often has to be done overseas is because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure. We can do some work here, and we do it, especially the coding and industrial design.

But when you make a competitive product that has to be better than the current state-of-the-art, your R&D is tied to the manufacturing, and the delivery times and milestones are razor thin. The market expects it now. It's often too difficult for smaller companies to manage a complicated project if they can't control manufacturing, so they are often forced to let the manufacturers bundle in the development. Fifteen years ago, China and Vietnam were looked at as production destinations, but now the R&D is often too expensive or impossible to hit deadline if the U.S. maker doesn't just let them bundle that with the manufacturing. They supply the specifications based on what they know can be accomplished overseas, and they leave it at that.

Innovation is murdered when you can't stumble on some serendipity because your lab has been lobotomized.

 

Soreass doesn't care as long as he gets cheap shit from Walmart, and his SS checks on time. Oh, and a platform for complaining about how lazy kids are these days. 

 

Welcome to the race for the bottom. The good news is, we're winning! Bigly!

I worked in industrial services instead of manufacturing, but see the same thing there. It's cheaper to build equipment out of replaceable widgets and have some minimum wage joe run by plugging in new widgets. Every so often, the idea of Quality Control will become popular so that the same widget will have 3X the productivity and 5X the MTBF but they realize it costs twice as much, so the siren song of low-low prices pulls us back toward the bottom again. Meanwhile the average industrial worker in the US has not only seen jobs flee, but seen his training drop significantly.

When I retired (actually I just up and quit), they replaced me with two different specialists, while trying to hire an actual engineer who could go out in the plants and tell a boiler from an air compressor. I think eventually they replaced me with about 4 guys, none of whom make the pay I made (or get the benefits).... in this case, I'd bet it was a net loss to the employers but I really don't give a shit at this point. I don't even own stock in that business sector any more.

So..... GET THE FUCK OFF MY LAWN !!!

-DSK

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Repairs..... Mechanics these days, are more apt to be parts swappers. Not because they want to be, but because the manufacturer makes it so parts can't be repaired. They can be replaced, but not repaired. This gives more money to the manufacturer, who the "mechanic" has to buy replacement parts from, and less to the mechanic, who spent 20 minutes plugging in a new part that cost $700 instead of working 4 hours repairing a part. Yes the mechanic will probably bill you for the full hour. He has to in order to survive.

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5 hours ago, mikewof said:

The two have nothing to do with each other. We have plenty of people here who can do R&D. The reason it often has to be done overseas is because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure. We can do some work here, and we do it, especially the coding and industrial design.

But when you make a competitive product that has to be better than the current state-of-the-art, your R&D is tied to the manufacturing, and the delivery times and milestones are razor thin. The market expects it now. It's often too difficult for smaller companies to manage a complicated project if they can't control manufacturing, so they are often forced to let the manufacturers bundle in the development. Fifteen years ago, China and Vietnam were looked at as production destinations, but now the R&D is often too expensive or impossible to hit deadline if the U.S. maker doesn't just let them bundle that with the manufacturing. They supply the specifications based on what they know can be accomplished overseas, and they leave it at that.

Innovation is murdered when you can't stumble on some serendipity because your lab has been lobotomized.

 

The foreign students who went to school here, graduated and went home are the folks doing your R&D overseas.  Of course there are flavors of R&D.  One has to do with the device functionality the other with the ability to manufacture.

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4 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Repairs..... Mechanics these days, are more apt to be parts swappers. Not because they want to be, but because the manufacturer makes it so parts can't be repaired. They can be replaced, but not repaired. This gives more money to the manufacturer, who the "mechanic" has to buy replacement parts from, and less to the mechanic, who spent 20 minutes plugging in a new part that cost $700 instead of working 4 hours repairing a part. Yes the mechanic will probably bill you for the full hour. He has to in order to survive.

Actually, while there is some truth in your statement, the needs to reduce energy consumption and size lead to LRUs that are very comprehensive in their function and hence complex and expensive.

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11 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Ever try to use the guest worker visa program? I have. It's cumbersome at best. It is designed for large corporations, not small businesses.

What part of "well oiled" did you miss in Dog's post?  WHat we have now is a rusty POS.  We could have a well-oiled guest worker program if politicians on both sides had the courage and the will to make it happen.  But its not in their interests to do so, so it won't likely happen without a major crisis event occuring.

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10 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

  We could have a well-oiled guest worker program if politicians on both sides had the courage and the will to make it happen. 

when you suck their dick for shitting on legal immigration, why would they?

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Actually, they need to take down the "illegals help wanted" sign and speed up legal immigration.

The rest is just blowing smoke up your ass. 

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10 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Quite a few. Same with the Greeks and Chinese (not Polish but you get it).

They all do eventually integrate. Sometimes it takes a generation. I used to walk to school with a girl named Tina Asido. She was Filipino. Her mom spoke 0 'Mericun. Her dad was fluent.

I worked with a guy name Joseph Buch. He got here via the London Railroad. He was 'ok' at 'Mericun. "At this moment" was a big part of his speak. He was moody, stubborn and fun to work with.

I grew up in the period that the Post WW II sponsored refugees were integrating with society. They worked hard at their jobs and to learn english.  Even among themselves they did their best to speak it.  One reason was that it was almost necessary to pass the citizenship test and that's what they all wanted to accomplish.

Some great parties when someone could show their new naturalization papers and proclaim "Now I am American".  In fact, I think it was the first time I got drunk on Dago Red.

 

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What part of "well oiled" did you miss in Dog's post?  WHat we have now is a rusty POS.  We could have a well-oiled guest worker program if politicians on both sides had the courage and the will to make it happen.  But its not in their interests to do so, so it won't likely happen without a major crisis event occuring.

We could, and the republicans had 2 years to do it. Why didn’t they?

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