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Valiant butt surgery

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It looks like Valiant underwent some surgery to her stern area in the not too distant past.  Yes, Brit performed his "magic" to her in '74 to make her a better trial horse for Mariner - that's not what I am referring to.  She had a lot of stern deadrise when launched in '70.  You can see that in the first photo below where both the photo and crew sneakers look a lot more recent than '74,  In the second photo, you can see the stern counter has been flattened out a lot and likely the buttock lines made a bit shallower.

Anyone know when this was done and why?  Would seem like a lot of work on an old woody.

I included the last photo just because I think it is a beautiful sailing shot of the old gal.

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valiant 6757.jpg

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^ Those Hood sails make me all nostalgic. First photo looks pretty old to me, too - you sure that's post '74? Kinda looks like Ted Turner on the rail in the hat.

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12 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Those Hood sails make me all nostalgic. First photo looks pretty old to me, too - you sure that's post '74? Kinda looks like Ted Turner on the rail in the hat.

Yeah, certainly does look like Turner.  And the socks are high enough to be '74 :huh:  Just looked to me like some were wearing mesh sneakers.

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19 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

Yeah, certainly does look like Turner.  And the socks are high enough to be '74 :huh:  Just looked to me like some were wearing mesh sneakers.

If only Frederique was in the pic, we'd know for sure! I got to visit Derektor's with my dad when Mariner was back in the shed for stern #2. IIRC, Valiant was also chopped and channeled like Mariner 1.0 at some point, so the second transom shape could be an artifact of that mod being 'undone' right around the same time period. The second pic is def  circa '74 - those crosscut Hoods with the vertical foot panels weren't around in '70.

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20 hours ago, surfsailor said:

If only Frederique was in the pic, we'd know for sure! I got to visit Derektor's with my dad when Mariner was back in the shed for stern #2. IIRC, Valiant was also chopped and channeled like Mariner 1.0 at some point, so the second transom shape could be an artifact of that mod being 'undone' right around the same time period. The second pic is def  circa '74 - those crosscut Hoods with the vertical foot panels weren't around in '70.

Did a bit of Googling and those photos are definitely from 1974.

Assuming it is Turner on the rail, could it be that a young DC is at the wheel in the photo on the first post? 

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It's hard to know without seeing before-and-after profile drawings. Valiant originally had a very long waterline--and the massive displacement required for that under the Rule--but the very steep buttocks aft shortened the measured L a bit compared to a more typical, flatter overhang, permitting a bit more sail area.

In the picture with what appears to be a flatter run aft, it is possible that her rudder has been moved forward and a bunch of lead chopped out, since she was too heavy for her sail area right out of the box.  Maybe that was after the Chance mods.

Don't think radical surgery like this didn't happen to the wooden 12's. It was pretty astonishing what could be and was done to many of them. 

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58 minutes ago, accnick said:

Don't think radical surgery like this didn't happen to the wooden 12's. It was pretty astonishing what could be and was done to many of them. 

Oh yeah.  Look what they have done to Heritage .  Almost an IOR like underbody.  Looks pretty good IMO.  New Valiant maybe not so much

But it would still be quite expensive and I don't see for what purpose.

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4 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Did a bit of Googling and those photos are definitely from 1974.

Assuming it is Turner on the rail, could it be that a young DC is at the wheel in the photo on the first post? 

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DC was given Valiant for a while so Hinman could concentrate on raising money and running things. They moved him over to Mariner and Ted took over Valiant at the end. Could be they were both on Valiant while Mariner was in the shed. I cannot remember seeing pics of Valiant's stern from that year. She sort of disappeared.

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Olin Stephens said that he looked over the quarter about 10 minutes after dropping the tow rope and said “ oh damn.”

Valiant was  one of the first 12 designs based on flawed tank data.

SHC

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Maybe merge this with 'Larry's F15 Circus' and call it...

           "Old AC boats going in for surgery, desperate to keep up with the younger generation"

;)

 

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^ Heritage could still be a 12, depending on where the midships lower girth station mark falls relative to that flat across the keel/hull joint, plus what her draft is, and her displacement, etc., etc.

 

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21 hours ago, accnick said:

^ Heritage could still be a 12, depending on where the midships lower girth station mark falls relative to that flat across the keel/hull joint, plus what her draft is, and her displacement, etc., etc.

 

I think she draws more than 9' with that keel, sailed on her a couple of years ago and the other 12m boats call her a 13 meter. They invite her to sail on occasions when they need another boat in the fleet. The rest of her measurements may be OK, the rudder is not part of the measurement.

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^Non-penalty draft in the 12m rule is 0.16 LWL + 500mm, but there is no "hard" limit on draft: it's just punitive in rating hit to exceed it.

Excess draft is added directly to rating, such  that a boat that would rate 12.00m with maximum non-penalty draft would rate 12.10m (and thus not be a 12) if they exceeded maximum non-penalty draft by 100mm. You would have to give up quite a bit a sail area to get back to 12.00m, but it could be done.

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Olin Stephens did a lot of work with the current owner Gary Gregory in the last years of his life to optimize Valiant, the boat that he viewed as his biggest professional disappointment.  That work led him to the conclusion that Valiant actually wasn’t nearly as bad a design as he and everyone else thought back when she was vying to defend the cup. Among other things, they found that the keel was asymmetrical and shaped badly.   Valiant has since redeemed herself in terms of performance in the post AC 12 meter world.  I don’t know if Olin was involved in the transom redesign or not, but I do remember him discussing his recent work on the boat in the early 2000’s. 

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5 hours ago, accnick said:

^Non-penalty draft in the 12m rule is 0.16 LWL + 500mm, but there is no "hard" limit on draft: it's just punitive in rating hit to exceed it.

Excess draft is added directly to rating, such  that a boat that would rate 12.00m with maximum non-penalty draft would rate 12.10m (and thus not be a 12) if they exceeded maximum non-penalty draft by 100mm. You would have to give up quite a bit a sail area to get back to 12.00m, but it could be done.

There were a couple of other penalties as well.  One if measured beam was less than base and another if displacement was less than a calculated amount based on LWL.

IIRC, the draft penalty was much higher than simply the difference.  It may have been 4x the difference while for beam it may have been 8x,

If the draft penalty was only 1x the difference, that would not be really punitive - I think it would have been a great incentive to give it a go.

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^ You are correct. It was 3x the excess draft added directly to rating, so 100mm of excess draft would add .3m to rating.

Rule number 1 in my business is: "Don't guess: read the rule." I forgot that one.

There are both penalties and credits in the 12m rule, and they were actually used from time to time when designers felt it was advantageous to do so.

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Does anyone have a version of the rule that was used in '83? (3rd Rule) The argument NYYC/DC made was that AIII could not sail in 9' of water when heeled and thusly did not measure as a 12m. Or was that based on them having a 9' measured draft and then considering the wings extending down when heeled? I can only find the currently adopted rule approved recently.

 

edit: I know there was a tweak to the rule where low freeboard was penalized in '83 vs '80, that is the problem why Freedom was not used over Liberty that year, they moved Freedom's rudder and some other mods, losing her grandfather clause to not be re-rated.

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17 hours ago, eliboat said:

Olin Stephens did a lot of work with the current owner Gary Gregory in the last years of his life to optimize Valiant, the boat that he viewed as his biggest professional disappointment.  That work led him to the conclusion that Valiant actually wasn’t nearly as bad a design as he and everyone else thought back when she was vying to defend the cup. Among other things, they found that the keel was asymmetrical and shaped badly.   Valiant has since redeemed herself in terms of performance in the post AC 12 meter world.  I don’t know if Olin was involved in the transom redesign or not, but I do remember him discussing his recent work on the boat in the early 2000’s. 

That may be true, but metre boats went down the wrong path in the late 60's (minimize wetted surface and increase displacement to increase waterline).

Below is Toogooloowoo V,  followed by a B&W of Valiant being splashed (literally) - you can readily see the resemblance in the stern and keel to Valiant.  http://www.6mrnorthamerica.com/toogie5.html 

it should be noted Toogie V lost to ex-Toogie IV in the 1970 American Australian Challenge

And Toogie IV had lost to the 30 year old Goose (US81) in the same challenge the prior year.

There is mention in the link above of a loophole in the rule with regards to measured waterline which they were trying to exploit with Toogie V, which was later closed.   I wonder what it was and if it applied to both the 6mR and 12mR rule.

Rudder in the 1973 Seattle photo most likely changed by Mull from the original S&S design.

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