brccd

Carry both Asym and Symmetric Spinnakers? (and PHRF)

Recommended Posts

Hi,

Wondered about taking both for racing and if there is any issue as far as PHRF...both are"standard" and will fly with the pole! Looking at more distance type races...35' beneteau...looking to get an asym...and not flying from a sprit!

Seems like its ok....Checked the YRALIS regs and it has the following:

"...If boats wish to fly both symmetric and asymmetric spinnakers from the pole, and neither spinnaker is subject to a penalty, then this configuration is allowed with no penalty"

Any comments?

Thanks.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talk to your sailmaker But, I think an A2 might be in order. Rigging wise you might need to add a snatch block to ‘center’ the sail while gybing. (I am a little rusty on that as it has been a while)

UK seems to be a good value (re sales AND service).

Sail Safe and flame on..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are sailing under YRALIS then it seems okay (from what you posted). Back in the day most PHRF regions had prohibitions or handicaps for both races and seasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the J35 we have both, as long as the assym is built within the measurements of the standard spin there is no penalty. We lose a few feet of sail area with the assym to meet this requirement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2018 at 6:21 PM, SailRacer said:

Talk to your sailmaker But, I think an A2 might be in order. Rigging wise you might need to add a snatch block to ‘center’ the sail while gybing. (I am a little rusty on that as it has been a while)

UK seems to be a good value (re sales AND service).

Sail Safe and flame on..

You'll definitely need to rig a tack line, you take it off the pole to jibe and then put the pole on the new side. 

As long as the pole isn't overlength and the sail isn't oversized compared to your symmetric I don't know why you should get penalized 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2018 at 4:50 PM, brccd said:

Hi,

Wondered about taking both for racing and if there is any issue as far as PHRF...both are"standard" and will fly with the pole! Looking at more distance type races...35' beneteau...looking to get an asym...and not flying from a sprit!

Seems like its ok....Checked the YRALIS regs and it has the following:

"...If boats wish to fly both symmetric and asymmetric spinnakers from the pole, and neither spinnaker is subject to a penalty, then this configuration is allowed with no penalty"

Any comments?

Thanks.

 

 

we were world beaters on Shooting Star (36.7) with this configuration

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are not flying from a pole, some fleets will get cranky if you tack it too far in front of your forestay. Most will give you 12-16 inches as a practical matter to keep you from tearing off your bow pulpit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

particularly when there is no penalty it is my preferred method. Best of all worlds for a whole lot of displacement boats... and even ULDB's like the Hobie33. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was a while ago, but I was on a Pole symmetric spin boat which added an asymmetric to the sail inventory while I was crewing it. It wasn’t that useful as it had to be the same size as our symmetrical (Boat was 5/8s fractional  rig), in order not to get a rating change/penalty so it was tiny for the boats size and therefore was only useful in 15+knots of wind. Once we figured that out during our first season with it, it rarely came out of its bag for the following seasons.

But on a 7/8s frac like the 36.7 or full head rig boat you might get a better ROI on it. Just understand to keep your current rating it’s got be the same size as your current spins and with most asymmetrical only boats, the spin is much bigger than a comparable symmetric boat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lightfoot said:

It was a while ago, but I was on a Pole symmetric spin boat which added an asymmetric to the sail inventory while I was crewing it. It wasn’t that useful as it had to be the same size as our symmetrical (Boat was 5/8s fractional  rig), in order not to get a rating change/penalty so it was tiny for the boats size and therefore was only useful in 15+knots of wind. Once we figured that out during our first season with it, it rarely came out of its bag for the following seasons.

But on a 7/8s frac like the 36.7 or full head rig boat you might get a better ROI on it. Just understand to keep your current rating it’s got be the same size as your current spins and with most asymmetrical only boats, the spin is much bigger than a comparable symmetric boat. 

I was in the same situation. The initial PHRF-LE (1999ish)  asymmetrical rule was that the asymmetrical kite had to fit inside the symmetrical kite that your boat was rated for. You could not average your luff and leech lengths. The asymmetrical would always be undersized. This rule was dumb and was fixed (I think).

The easiest part in this whole scenario is purchasing the kite. If your boat is not setup for having 5 lines connected to your kite, you'll never use it anyway.

That's right sports fans. If you want to fly an asymmetrical kite off of a pole and gybe it, you will need 2 sheets, 2 guys and 1 tack line

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Adding a tack line is pretty trivial on most boats.  I added a low friction ring to the stem chainplate and switch our pole downhaul to single ended.  The tack line is fed through the fairleads for the port side of the downhaul and goes into an empty clutch.  On my previous boat I just left an extra block at the stem and could easily route the downhaul through it as a tack line for flying the asym, or route it another way to be the pole downhaul.

The biggest downside is having an even larger sail inventory.  We have an asym for cruising and deliveries, but don't use it very often in racing.  I think that a good A2 would be nice for distance racing, but it's yet another sail to budget for.  

PHRF-NW allows asyms to be the same size as syms, but there is no allowance for any form of sprit.  A 2' sprit would be the same as a 2' longer pole, which is a pretty significant penalty (I think 9 seconds on my boat).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, we couldn’t jibe with it as it was a dip-pole boat. We tried to figure out something with a frac line to move the pole to the other side of the forestry but we never found a setup we liked, and could work without superhuman effort. It was a long distance race sail only that we would peel into and out of   

 

Also your symmetric lines most likely won’t be long enough to jibe it either. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You jibe with it flying from the tack line. A dip pole still works. 

I did make my sheets a bit longer to make them work for both. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We were using symmetrical gear, so there was no tack line. We flew the tack off the gye in the jaws of the pole about a foot off the deck. Doing it this way allowed us to sneak the tack slightly to windward. Which was really helpful when we went double head rig with the asym and a 3. (We set the all time speed record with the boat that way) 

Thus to jibe, we had to attach a frak line to the tack, blow and detach and unjaw the old gye, move the pole to the other side of the headstay, attach and jaw the new gye, and the Jibe the sail and remove the frack. It was possible but it was slow and kept someone at the bow for far to long. Thus we made sure to tactically avoid it and never did it in a race after we figured out how.

We played with moving down haul from it’s normal position mid bow to the base of the forestry and flying the kite off that as a tack line, but that setup had no ability to keep the tack from drifting to leeward and twisting off thus screwing up the luffs entry angle to the wind. We played with running the downhaul/tack line through a block on the gye, but that pulled it back, not to windward.

TLDR: think about and figure out how your sym running gear and pole setup will fly the asym. You may have to add hardware/buy new lines/change your system/or get creative as we did.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On our Olson 30, other than our beer-can racing which is non-spinnaker, we only do long day races. As a result, we've converted over exclusively to asymmetrical. Having said that, if we found ourselves doing w/l with legs less than 1.5nm, we'd go with our symmetrical kites.

Double-ended tack line attached to the spinnaker, two lengthened sheets led outside, standard end-for-end gybes, A2 designed to be squared back. We've been happy with the set-up. 

2018 NYYC Annual Regatta AN Downwind 001 (800).JPG

2018 NYYC Annual Regatta AN Downwind 002A (800).JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jnye said:

On our Olson 30, other than our beer-can racing which is non-spinnaker, we only do long day races. As a result, we've converted over exclusively to asymmetrical. Having said that, if we found ourselves doing w/l with legs less than 1.5nm, we'd go with our symmetrical kites.

Double-ended tack line attached to the spinnaker, two lengthened sheets led outside, standard end-for-end gybes, A2 designed to be squared back. We've been happy with the set-up. 

2018 NYYC Annual Regatta AN Downwind 001 (800).JPG

2018 NYYC Annual Regatta AN Downwind 002A (800).JPG

good looking setup. What was the penalty?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:21 PM, RATM said:

I was in the same situation. The initial PHRF-LE (1999ish)  asymmetrical rule was that the asymmetrical kite had to fit inside the symmetrical kite that your boat was rated for. You could not average your luff and leech lengths. The asymmetrical would always be undersized. This rule was dumb and was fixed (I think).

The easiest part in this whole scenario is purchasing the kite. If your boat is not setup for having 5 lines connected to your kite, you'll never use it anyway.

That's right sports fans. If you want to fly an asymmetrical kite off of a pole and gybe it, you will need 2 sheets, 2 guys and 1 tack line

5 lines sounds really complicated but when you get your head wrapped around the set-up it is really not too bad. You trip the pole off the guy, the tack line holds it during the gybe, both guys are slack and makes it easy for the foredeck. Ease and trim the 500' of sheet to bring the kite around the front, snug the guy back on after the pole is set and you are done. Make sure to put the guys on the primaries and the sheets on the secondary's used for spinnaker trim usually and you are all set. It looks worse than it is in practice, you hardly ever touch the tack line except if you have to move the pole some. It replaces the foreguy basically as you will not need to adjust it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't have to dip the pole. Disconnect it at the mast, pull aft, push it out to the new gybe, reconnect before you load it up with the new guy. Also, if you connect everything to a peace ring, it makes moving the lines much simpler. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No penalty under PHRF Long Island Sound as long as the average of the two luffs doesn't exceed what's permitted for the symmetrical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

53 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

5 lines sounds really complicated but when you get your head wrapped around the set-up it is really not too bad. You trip the pole off the guy, the tack line holds it during the gybe, both guys are slack and makes it easy for the foredeck. Ease and trim the 500' of sheet to bring the kite around the front, snug the guy back on after the pole is set and you are done. Make sure to put the guys on the primaries and the sheets on the secondary's used for spinnaker trim usually and you are all set. It looks worse than it is in practice, you hardly ever touch the tack line except if you have to move the pole some. It replaces the foreguy basically as you will not need to adjust it.

Don't even need four winches. We do it with two. The tack line takes all the load during the gybe so the trimmers take the sheets/guys off and add the guys/sheets. Not sure about the hardly have to ever touch the tack line. It's for all intents and purposes the foreguy and since it's coming from the stem, needs to be adjusted every time to guy is adjusted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NoStrings said:

You don't have to dip the pole. Disconnect it at the mast, pull aft, push it out to the new gybe, reconnect before you load it up with the new guy. Also, if you connect everything to a peace ring, it makes moving the lines much simpler. 

depends. I sailed on a boat with a big pin through the butt of the pole rather than the typical bayonet. We dipped on that boat... For the life of me i can't remember what boat that was though, some 40'er. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look on YouTube for any Tp52 videos from around 2010 and before. They were all doing asyms from poles before they decided to go with fixed bowsprits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few years ago, I sailed on a boat that used Syms in lighter air, and Asyms in heavier air. That was in SoCal, and there was no penalty for the asym, but the tack line location was limited by the pole length.  For the asym, we used a 2/1 tack line, 2 sheets attached to the clew, and 2 guys attached to a Peace Ring. The same lines were used for the sym, but attached in normal fashion, with the tack line attached to the pole as a downhaul. To jibe the asym, we detached the pole from the mast and moved the butt aft (on the lee side) to allow the beak to clear behind the headstay. Sym was jibed using normal dip pole.

Over time, we decided the syms were not fast, and went to an all-asym configuration. The asyms proved faster because the sails could be shaped to perform efficiently as a foil, which is not as possible with the syms. because both sides of the sail are required to function both as luff and leach.

As I recall, they came to the same conclusion in the ACC class.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That said,  would get the Asym, and begin the transition to more modern sail shapes, being mindful that you want to avoid any penalties, if possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/30/2018 at 4:15 PM, Alex W said:

Adding a tack line is pretty trivial on most boats.  I added a low friction ring to the stem chainplate and switch our pole downhaul to single ended.  The tack line is fed through the fairleads for the port side of the downhaul and goes into an empty clutch.  On my previous boat I just left an extra block at the stem and could easily route the downhaul through it as a tack line for flying the asym, or route it another way to be the pole downhaul.

The biggest downside is having an even larger sail inventory.  We have an asym for cruising and deliveries, but don't use it very often in racing.  I think that a good A2 would be nice for distance racing, but it's yet another sail to budget for.  

PHRF-NW allows asyms to be the same size as syms, but there is no allowance for any form of sprit.  A 2' sprit would be the same as a 2' longer pole, which is a pretty significant penalty (I think 9 seconds on my boat).  

Yep, I pay this price after converting my Beneteau Figaro to a retractable sprit. My sprit is 4' beyond my J and I get penalized for a 260% spinnaker as a result.  This is 16 seconds which basically makes it impossible to compete in around the cans racing, especially against a fleet of Laser 28's that have 2' oversized symmetric poles but take 0 sec penalty for it. Go figure.

But I wouldn't go back to symmetric spins even at this cost.  Assym's are so much more fun and we look a lot cooler than those dinosaur symmetrical boats.

There's the next topic for the forum: Are symmetrical spinnakers still cool?

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now