DarkHorse

No flag, no foul!

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Nice discussion but does it matter in the real world.

I was at a recent 'umpire on the water' and there were a a handful of fouls called, and the umpires were only in the vicinity with a view a few times. On one of ours where they made a call in our favor, but they were no where near the incident so it felt hollow. And I know the other team didn't agree and so didn't 'learn' anything.

But for most non-championship events (those without umpiring), running through the whole protest rigamarole is too much work. Unless there is damage, the likelihood of the other party even to show up is small, and the real outcome is that the avenged party just becomes negative on the protesting party for the rest of the season. And all for a pickle dish?

It may work fine for one designs where everyone immediately goes to the same dock location after the race and the race can be completed in minutes, else it has become less important. We know who won on the water and the idiot being protested probably won't learn anything anyway.

yes, not politically correct, but reality.

 

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I was thinking about the racing rules the other day from the 20,000 foot view.  When you golf, do people stand around discussing the golfing rules all of the time?  Does anyone even bring any rule up on the golf course?  How many have actually ever read the rules of golf?  The same questions go for baseball, softball, football, soccer, volleyball, hell even croquet. 

My point is, we have designed and built this sport on creating rules for every stupid little situation that anyone can come up with.  Weight rules, safety rules, rules of conduct, right of way, pro vs. amateur, and when those rules aren't enough we add on the Appeals, Case Book, etc.

Are we crushing this thing with too many rules?

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14 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

I was thinking about the racing rules the other day from the 20,000 foot view.  When you golf, do people stand around discussing the golfing rules all of the time?  Does anyone even bring any rule up on the golf course?  How many have actually ever read the rules of golf?  The same questions go for baseball, softball, football, soccer, volleyball, hell even croquet. 

My point is, we have designed and built this sport on creating rules for every stupid little situation that anyone can come up with.  Weight rules, safety rules, rules of conduct, right of way, pro vs. amateur, and when those rules aren't enough we add on the Appeals, Case Book, etc.

Are we crushing this thing with too many rules?

no

The rules are pretty basic 

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Just now, Glenn McCarthy said:

I was thinking about the racing rules the other day from the 20,000 foot view.  When you golf, do people stand around discussing the golfing rules all of the time?  Does anyone even bring any rule up on the golf course?  How many have actually ever read the rules of golf?  The same questions go for baseball, softball, football, soccer, volleyball, hell even croquet. 

My point is, we have designed and built this sport on creating rules for every stupid little situation that anyone can come up with.  Weight rules, safety rules, rules of conduct, right of way, pro vs. amateur, and when those rules aren't enough we add on the Appeals, Case Book, etc.

Are we crushing this thing with too many rules?

You're way out in left field, Glenn.

Those other sports determined that there is enough complexity in the rules that professionals have to be used that monitor compliance with the rules.Golfers totally debate rules when you run into a place where there is complexity of any kind. Stroke penalties, what you can and cannot do when playing a ball in a tough spot, etc.Half of football is debating exactly what a catch is.

If someone breaks a rule, we throw our flag. Most of the time, the guy spins. Sometimes he disagrees with the flag and doesn't. Maybe it goes to the room if most people involved give a shit about it. Big fucking deal.

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And most of the other sports mentioned do not involve a many lbs expensive and sometimes dangerous piece of fiberglass moving in a medium that constantly changes(and could easily kill you)  while working in inches close proximity to other Many LB expensive piece of fiberglass.  ;)

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

I was thinking about the racing rules the other day from the 20,000 foot view.  When you golf, do people stand around discussing the golfing rules all of the time?  Does anyone even bring any rule up on the golf course?  How many have actually ever read the rules of golf?  The same questions go for baseball, softball, football, soccer, volleyball, hell even croquet. 

My point is, we have designed and built this sport on creating rules for every stupid little situation that anyone can come up with.  Weight rules, safety rules, rules of conduct, right of way, pro vs. amateur, and when those rules aren't enough we add on the Appeals, Case Book, etc.

Are we crushing this thing with too many rules?

I had a rule book in my golf bag until I stopped playing tournaments, you memorized the basics but looked up the weird shit.  That's for a sport where the playing field is stationary.

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Racing on the Saturday afternoon

Lodge the protest form within the prescribed period post race.

Wait for contact from the Club when the protest hearing will be heard...Monday afternoon..still waiting..Tuesday..same..Thursday, notified the hearing is next Wednesday at 1900 with 3 other protests to be heard, and guess what I'm interstate/overseas..so request a postponement.

Next Monday informed the hearing will be heard next Wednesday..if a jury can be enpanelled.

..........

..........

4 weeks after the relevant race the hearing occurs.

This is why no-one protests.

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Last season, we were in a social race, last leg before the finish.  A considerably larger/heavier yacht was to leeward of our 38', and decided to go behind and up.  Unfortunately, they couldn't see where our boat finished and theirs started, forgot to allow for wave action, and rear ended us.  Result: US - dent in the transom, busted and bent staunchions, broken lifelines, Skipper narrowly missed by their bowsprit.  THEM - incandescent with rage that we protested.   

Seemed to me, as a relative newb, that it's pretty hard to argue it's the fault of the guys in front when you hit them in the arse.  No, we weren't playing silly buggers.  Just minding our own business.

Anyway, it went to a protest hearing, and the panel found against the other boat...who refused to acknowledge the decision and make amends.  A couple of weeks later, in a 'real' race, they went out of their way to push us the wrong way around a mark.  We were lucky no-one was hurt in the ensuing chaos.  The Skipper didn't bother to protest that time; he decided it wasn't worth the risk!  We just make sure we stay out of the way when that particular psycho is driving.

After a series of incidents that season involving boats of the same sizes (all the sub-40' boats started getting very twitchy around anything 47-ish feet and over) the Club held a rules night.  It was disappointingly poorly attended...and I don't recall seeing any of the big boat guys there.  I guess they'll just continue to call 'tonnage' on everyone.

THIS is what is discouraging to me, and not just because people should play by the rules.  I love this sport...but jeez, there are some arseholes and idiots, and I don't particularly want to end up a casualty of either.

 

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6 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

I was thinking about the racing rules the other day from the 20,000 foot view.  When you golf, do people stand around discussing the golfing rules all of the time?  Does anyone even bring any rule up on the golf course?  How many have actually ever read the rules of golf?  The same questions go for baseball, softball, football, soccer, volleyball, hell even croquet. 

My point is, we have designed and built this sport on creating rules for every stupid little situation that anyone can come up with.  Weight rules, safety rules, rules of conduct, right of way, pro vs. amateur, and when those rules aren't enough we add on the Appeals, Case Book, etc.

Are we crushing this thing with too many rules?

No. What's "crushing this thing" are too many people who don't abide by  them and don't get called out on their infractions, or don't self police. We may or may not have hit a leeward gate Saturday. I thought we did, I got conflicting reports from a couple of my crew, so we did our spin. it made the place we finished in feel that much better than maybe beating one more boat knowing that we probably hit a mark.

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There is a lot of help to learn the basic rules. It is not difficult 

http://www.bcya.com/Misc/BasicRacingRules.pdf

1 hour ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

No. What's "crushing this thing" are too many people who don't abide by  them and don't get called out on their infractions, or don't self police. We may or may not have hit a leeward gate Saturday. I thought we did, I got conflicting reports from a couple of my crew, so we did our spin. it made the place we finished in feel that much better than maybe beating one more boat knowing that we probably hit a mark.

Good for you 

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38 minutes ago, VWAP said:

There is a lot of help to learn the basic rules. It is not difficult 

 

You can't make this shit up. Now answer the question Herbie. What does this mean again?

Image result for ap flag images

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5 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

You can't make this shit up. Now answer the question Herbie. What does this mean again?

Image result for ap flag images

You need to take your nonsense back to pa

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3 minutes ago, VWAP said:

You need to take your nonsense back to pa

You really can't.

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4 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

You really can't.

booo

 

 

yawnnnnnnnnnnn

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, PITA said:

Last season, we were in a social race, last leg before the finish.  A considerably larger/heavier yacht was to leeward of our 38', and decided to go behind and up.  Unfortunately, they couldn't see where our boat finished and theirs started, forgot to allow for wave action, and rear ended us.  Result: US - dent in the transom, busted and bent staunchions, broken lifelines, Skipper narrowly missed by their bowsprit.  THEM - incandescent with rage that we protested.   

Seemed to me, as a relative newb, that it's pretty hard to argue it's the fault of the guys in front when you hit them in the arse.  No, we weren't playing silly buggers.  Just minding our own business.

Anyway, it went to a protest hearing, and the panel found against the other boat...who refused to acknowledge the decision and make amends.  A couple of weeks later, in a 'real' race, they went out of their way to push us the wrong way around a mark.  We were lucky no-one was hurt in the ensuing chaos.  The Skipper didn't bother to protest that time; he decided it wasn't worth the risk!  We just make sure we stay out of the way when that particular psycho is driving.

After a series of incidents that season involving boats of the same sizes (all the sub-40' boats started getting very twitchy around anything 47-ish feet and over) the Club held a rules night.  It was disappointingly poorly attended...and I don't recall seeing any of the big boat guys there.  I guess they'll just continue to call 'tonnage' on everyone.

THIS is what is discouraging to me, and not just because people should play by the rules.  I love this sport...but jeez, there are some arseholes and idiots, and I don't particularly want to end up a casualty of either.

 

 

That’s what RRS#2 was born for. Throw a DNE at them. Our PC will add that to a protest at their discression if they feel the situation warrents.

 

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RRS Rule 2 still applies in umpired events. 

The main difference is that the protesting boat must be involved in the incident, instead of just witnessing it.  If a boat is fouled and does not protest they broke Rule 2 that requires them to uphold the RRS.

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You have a choice when racing sailboats:

1) Have a set of rules that decides who has right of way in every conceivable situation

2) Lash fenders around the boat and expect a lot of collisions and yelling.

I have occasionally contemplated a third option, where there are just 5 basic rules that cover 85% of the situations and a sixth rule that states in any situation not covered by rules 1 through 5, both boats must try and avoid each other and if there is a collision, both boats retire.

 I end up concluding that Option #1 is still the simplest solution for competitive racing, but I would not mind trying the third option in Wednesday night beer can racing when most folks seem pretty shaky on the rules at best.

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(Long post, sorry)
Without rules there is no game. The exception is when a game, by its own design, converges to equilibrium, such as driving on one side of the street, where you'll bump into the other car until both drive on the same side, after what there's no reason to change lane. Sailing is not designed this way, therefore, sailing requires rules. The same can be said about most of the games humankind plays. Rules are necessary.

However relevant, let us avoid the issues regarding the quantity of rules needed, the frequency with which they should be changed, who should write them and others. The problem nowadays is the sheer number and complexity of the rules to read, memorize and comply with. Only a genius with prodigious memory and infinite time can claim that he knows each rule, updates his knowledge at each modification and complies with everything. Even with the mighty powers of search engines to support us, it is often impossible to find the time to read (not to mention understand and interpret) all the rules that apply to a situation.

I believe that the geometric expansion of rules is caused by the existence of people dedicated solely to their creation. In a government with a legislative power politicians are elected to make rules and change them. Since their outcome is maximized if they are re-elected and re-election requires money, politicians have to pull strings with the only tool they have: changing the rules to favor their supporters. (This is the origin of both populism and campaign funding from pressure groups/corporations). After a few generations, the entire rule book becomes biased, too long, too complicated, restrictive, obsolete and, in general, unsuitable for its original purpose.

This goes for governments resembling a republic with elected leaders as it goes for sport. Check anywhere and you will find the same phenomena: too many rules, too detailed, too complex, too restrictive, etc, etc. The situation is better where the Common Law applies, for it takes part of the power from legislators, but under the Roman law the situation is catastrophic and people avoid going to any court.

For a government, the solution is complicated. An expert re-design is required of the game of government, of the game of selection of managers, and of other related games. Realistically, the task is herculean. Meanwhile, people will start to avoid the courts under the Roman Law. It is a silent protest. Likewise, skippers do not like to protest under IYRU ISAF World Sailing rules.

 

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I came from surfing in the early sixties.  Rules were simple.  Don't drop in on anyone.  Respect your elders.  Earn your spot through excellence in waterman skills.  I fell into sailboat racing and was amazed at the affectation.  I pondered how to have the same experience that surfing generated.  Owner must build boat.  Owner must self launch and land his craft  alone through the waves.  If money is involved it is winner take all.  That's it.

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On 11/1/2018 at 6:17 AM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Are we crushing this thing with too many rules?

The only people who think there are too many sailing rules are those not familiar with them.  I think they are a thing of beauty, trimmed to the barest minimum for the purpose..

There is a culture of ignorance, laziness in sailing where people do not invest the time to understand them, complain that they are too complex and conflicting without being able to cite one conflict.  Then to top if off, these same people critisise those who do know and use the rules as Rule Nazis.

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On 10/31/2018 at 4:16 PM, shaggy said:

And most of the other sports mentioned do not involve a many lbs expensive and sometimes dangerous piece of fiberglass moving in a medium that constantly changes(and could easily kill you)  while working in inches close proximity to other Many LB expensive piece of fiberglass.  ;)

that all depends on how you golf....

rules exist to level the playing field, make it safe-ish and provide fair competition.  I can't expect to take a Catalina 27 and win a heads up race against a SC70, but rules would allow me to gauge the performance and skill of my boat against a completely different boat and arrive at a vaguely meaningful result.  sorta.  any race I do is fun first, so maybe a differing viewpoint.  I heard of a cat-boat class in texas (I think), where to be race legal, all cockpit cushions must be in place and everyone must have a beverage on deck to be legal. I like those kinda rules.

If you cheat to win, you suck as a person. Have fun with you're life. I don't need to know you. If your a poor sportsman and sail like a complete douche-nozzle. Have fun with you're life. I don't need to know you. And no, I do not care how much money you have. Fuck off.  

When money is spent in large amounts, people start expecting things like an ROI. And, when you start looking at ANY sport, as an investment of any kind, you miss the point of having a good time and enjoying yourself.  People will bitch and moan about loosing, so the fuck what. Get over it. As was said above (DarkHorse), it's a fucking pickle dish. Most sailboat racers are amateurs. We need to remember why we're doing this. This is supposed to be fun. Competition can be fun. Competition can be great. Measuring yourself again the clock or others will let you know how you're doing. But, (I get to quote Wind here) "You can bullshit your friends. You can bullshit your family. But don't, don't bullshit yourself." Cheating to win falls under the "bullshitting yourself" category. 

I'm probably way off. Call me crazy.

 

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13 minutes ago, linaszuk said:

 

 

 

 

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On 11/1/2018 at 5:23 PM, LB 15 said:

You can't make this shit up. Now answer the question Herbie. What does this mean again?

Image result for ap flag images

Depends on who you ask on our boat. Could be the cat in the hat, or where's Wally, or go home stay home. 

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On 11/1/2018 at 2:23 PM, LB 15 said:

You can't make this shit up. Now answer the question Herbie. What does this mean again?

Image result for ap flag images

Does it mean that you have postponed your fight with the fuckwit?

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1 hour ago, random said:

Does it mean that you have postponed your fight with the fuckwit?

what fight?

 With all of his issues, I feel sorry for my little puppet 

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I've done a fair amount of judging. One question I ask before we start is, "Do you own a rule book?"  About 20% of respondents say, "Yes."  So you can expose the rules all day long, you can be the expert and cite rules by number.  You can describe how to use the rules as a shield or a sword.  The reality is, there is no requirements for reading the rules, there are no requirements for understanding the rules, and most don't have a clue and are out there to have fun.......until a close call or contact is made.

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There are a few basic rules to abide by, if you follow those you need not worry about all the extra rules/regulations/minutia that causes many heads to spin. 

 

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But the real question is - barring damage, how much effort do you want to put out in 'teaching' someone else those few rules? I have sunday night football to watch, not spend 2-3 hours in useless protest hearings. I already beat the guy on the water anyway..  and eveyone already knows he's an idiot.

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On 10/31/2018 at 5:16 PM, shaggy said:

And most of the other sports mentioned do not involve a many lbs expensive and sometimes dangerous piece of fiberglass moving in a medium that constantly changes(and could easily kill you)  while working in inches close proximity to other Many LB expensive piece of fiberglass.  ;)

Exactly what I was thinking.  Few sports involve such expensive equipment.  Car racing is the only one that comes to mind.  Lots on the line there, as well.  Sailing involves no brakes, so it's far less deterministic in controlling outcomes.  When that's the case, rules are absolutely required to keep folks honest and disposition responsibility.  Unfortunately necessary due to human nature.

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I know enough to race under the RRS. If a sport requires protests to win, it is not a sport. Not for me, anyway. I am slowly abandoning sailling. Obviously.

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1 hour ago, Sysfx said:

I know enough to race under the RRS. If a sport requires protests to win, it is not a sport. Not for me, anyway. I am slowly abandoning sailling. Obviously.

"Requires protests to win?" What the fuck does that mean?

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1 hour ago, Sysfx said:

I know enough to race under the RRS. If a sport requires protests to win, it is not a sport. Not for me, anyway. I am slowly abandoning sailling. Obviously.

What class do you sail that requires protests to win? (and do you mean protests or protest hearings?)

 

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The reason the rules are so complex is that the sport is filled with unethical fuckwits that WANT to cheat.

In the old days, the gentlemen raced under a code of conduct.  Lets start with that.

And if there is a dispute around who was at fault, and a protested boat does not spin or retire, sabres at sunrise!

 

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Can resist adding my 2 cents, I hope I don't regret it.

There seem to be two, maybe three issues here:

1. the rules are too complicated

2. some people don't know the rules.

3. some people don't follow the rules.

They are somewhat related, but generally independent.

For Item 1, I don't think the rules are complicated because some group of people went out of the way to make them complicated.  I think they are complicated-ish because the sport is complicated and involves large masses of expensive equipment moving in close proximity to each other.  I don't think the sport is opposed to simplifying the rules, I think it is just a difficult task to do so.  And as stated many times above, the basic rules really aren't that complicated.  Yes, every once in a while someone doesn't realize there are some nuances (say the difference between being allowed a tactical rounding vs a seamam-like rounding), but those situations are very rare, although annoying if you get tossed, but surely not a reason to give up on the sport.  Perhaps there are some competitive fleets where this happens all the time, but I guarantee you that there is a fleet somewhere in every region that hasn't had a protest this year, if you don't want to deal with the rules - find that fleet.  (perhaps in the extreme it, is annoying to have to change boats to change fleets, but better than giving up on the sport entirely).

Sailing also develops in real time with no stoppages.  In Golf, you can pause, and read the rules to determine if you can remove a leaf that settles in your ball's path before you putt.  No such luxury in sailing.  In football, the play stops, 4 refs get together and review video.  No such possibility here.  In auto racing, to some extent you don't need rules, as the results of even light contact can be catastrophic for both parties so there is a large vested interest to keep clear.  The other "racing" sports, running, horse racing, swimming, everyone  stays in their own lane and it is a pure speed test, very little risk of contact, so the rules requirements are quite different.

Sailing is just different from the other sports.

For items 2 and 3 all of us must take responsibility.  The sport is for the most part (99.9%) self policed.  If you are fouled, fly the flag, 80% of the time, circles are done, 10% of the time the protest is not filed and is resolved with polite-ish conversation over beers, 5% go to the room and 5% of the time nothing happens and bitter rivalries are formed and never forgotten (ya, OK, so there are some dicks in our sport).  This excludes the fact that for every "flagged foul" there are 5 fouls that go unaddressed, either on the course,  in the room , or over beers.

Yes, I pulled those numbers out of my ass, but I hope you get the point, very little downside to flying the flag, and a lot of potential upside towards a fairer playing field and educated competitors.

 

 

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12 hours ago, random said:

Does it mean that you have postponed your fight with the fuckwit?

Teasing a manchild is hardly a fight mate. But how are you and Mikey getting on? Back on each Xmas card lists yet?

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On 11/1/2018 at 9:45 PM, linaszuk said:

that all depends on how you golf....

rules exist to level the playing field, make it safe-ish and provide fair competition.  I can't expect to take a Catalina 27 and win a heads up race against a SC70, but rules would allow me to gauge the performance and skill of my boat against a completely different boat and arrive at a vaguely meaningful result.  sorta.  any race I do is fun first, so maybe a differing viewpoint.  I heard of a cat-boat class in texas (I think), where to be race legal, all cockpit cushions must be in place and everyone must have a beverage on deck to be legal. I like those kinda rules.

If you cheat to win, you suck as a person. Have fun with you're life. I don't need to know you. If your a poor sportsman and sail like a complete douche-nozzle. Have fun with you're life. I don't need to know you. And no, I do not care how much money you have. Fuck off.  

When money is spent in large amounts, people start expecting things like an ROI. And, when you start looking at ANY sport, as an investment of any kind, you miss the point of having a good time and enjoying yourself.  People will bitch and moan about loosing, so the fuck what. Get over it. As was said above (DarkHorse), it's a fucking pickle dish. Most sailboat racers are amateurs. We need to remember why we're doing this. This is supposed to be fun. Competition can be fun. Competition can be great. Measuring yourself again the clock or others will let you know how you're doing. But, (I get to quote Wind here) "You can bullshit your friends. You can bullshit your family. But don't, don't bullshit yourself." Cheating to win falls under the "bullshitting yourself" category. 

I'm probably way off. Call me crazy.

 

Golf clap........;)

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On 11/1/2018 at 2:33 AM, PITA said:

Last season, we were in a social race, last leg before the finish.  A considerably larger/heavier yacht was to leeward of our 38', and decided to go behind and up.  Unfortunately, they couldn't see where our boat finished and theirs started, forgot to allow for wave action, and rear ended us.  Result: US - dent in the transom, busted and bent staunchions, broken lifelines, Skipper narrowly missed by their bowsprit.  THEM - incandescent with rage that we protested.   

Seemed to me, as a relative newb, that it's pretty hard to argue it's the fault of the guys in front when you hit them in the arse.  No, we weren't playing silly buggers.  Just minding our own business.

Anyway, it went to a protest hearing, and the panel found against the other boat...who refused to acknowledge the decision and make amends.  A couple of weeks later, in a 'real' race, they went out of their way to push us the wrong way around a mark.  We were lucky no-one was hurt in the ensuing chaos.  The Skipper didn't bother to protest that time; he decided it wasn't worth the risk!  We just make sure we stay out of the way when that particular psycho is driving.

After a series of incidents that season involving boats of the same sizes (all the sub-40' boats started getting very twitchy around anything 47-ish feet and over) the Club held a rules night.  It was disappointingly poorly attended...and I don't recall seeing any of the big boat guys there.  I guess they'll just continue to call 'tonnage' on everyone.

THIS is what is discouraging to me, and not just because people should play by the rules.  I love this sport...but jeez, there are some arseholes and idiots, and I don't particularly want to end up a casualty of either.

 

Those guys have no business on a race course by the sounds of things.

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1 hour ago, The Main Man said:

the Club held a rules night.  It was disappointingly poorly attended...and I don't recall seeing any of the big boat guys there.

Not surprising.  Ego won't let fuckwits be seen to be listening and learning from anyone.  They already know.

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Well linking this thread on the front page was about as popular as a fart in a lift (elevator for you sepo's).

Proves that most people see the RRS as something between them and winning.

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On 11/2/2018 at 12:42 PM, Glenn McCarthy said:

.  The reality is, there is no requirements for reading the rules, there are no requirements for understanding the rules,

"Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules  that they are expected to follow and enforce. ”

That seems to me a requirement for reading and understanding the rules. Trouble is they need to open the book and get that far...

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95 percent of situations are covered by knowing 3 and a half pages of definitions and 5 pages of Part 2 "When Boats Meet". Is that really too much to read and learn?

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2 hours ago, interested party said:

95 percent of situations are covered by knowing 3 and a half pages of definitions and 5 pages of Part 2 "When Boats Meet". Is that really too much to read and learn?

for many people. just look around 

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On 11/1/2018 at 12:23 AM, LB 15 said:

You can't make this shit up. Now answer the question Herbie. What does this mean again?

Image result for ap flag images

That’s the “time to chug another boat soda and wait for the sea breeze to swing in sign”, isn’t it?!

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17 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

That’s the “time to chug another boat soda and wait for the sea breeze to swing in sign”, isn’t it?!

Funny he has to ask 

I think it is a Limp Buoy battle flag. Ya know good competitive racers have to have a battle flag so everyone knows who they are when they hit the water. 

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On 11/2/2018 at 12:54 PM, Sysfx said:

I know enough to race under the RRS. If a sport requires protests to win, it is not a sport. Not for me, anyway. I am slowly abandoning sailling. Obviously.

If a sport requires protests to ensure a fair and level playing field, it is a sport. Participation in a  sportsmanlike manner is expected and the rules are expected to be followed. If a fouled boat does not protest, it skews the finish results for all other boats. That’s why a third party can and is expected to file a protest against both or as many boats involved an incident. If and when that doesn’t occur, I don’t race myself. 

The Wednesday night races at our club have been no protest-do a 360 events. That has allowed the poor sailors over  the line 30 seconds early to swing around the mark and t bone me and others in the 10 second promenade before the gun. I lodged a complaint after the second race this season and a blast email went out telling all racers to avoid this action. It happened again with the committee chairs in plain sight and hearing range when I was fouled a third time. My 3 finishes were 2,1,2 after the 3 fouled starts before I packed it in for the season. I work too hard to keep a tight ship and can’t let an unknowledable 75 year old lady and her lousy crew screw with my free time any more. 

Oh yeah, and then there is the insurance claim the fouling boat should have to deal with...

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1 minute ago, Sail4beer said:

If a sport requires protests to ensure a fair and level playing field, it is a sport. Participation in a  sportsmanlike manner is expected and the rules are expected to be followed. If a fouled boat does not protest, it skews the finish results for all other boats. That’s why a third party can and is expected to file a protest against both or as many boats involved an incident. If and when that doesn’t occur, I don’t race myself. 

The Wednesday night races at our club have been no protest-do a 360 events. That has allowed the poor sailors over  the line 30 seconds early to swing around the mark and t bone me and others in the 10 second promenade before the gun. I lodged a complaint after the second race this season and a blast email went out telling all racers to avoid this action. It happened again with the committee chairs in plain sight and hearing range when I was fouled a third time. My 3 finishes were 2,1,2 after the 3 fouled starts before I packed it in for the season. I work too hard to keep a tight ship and can’t let an unknowledable 75 year old lady and her lousy crew screw with my free time any more. 

Oh yeah, and then there is the insurance claim the fouling boat should have to deal with...

Some people say don't protest at the Beer can Series it is a fun race. Wrong, Beer can races are the best place to protest so the inexperienced can learn the rules during an insignificant race and hopefully  in the process they learn something. Weekend racing is not the best place to "learn" the rules so don't bring stupid actions to weekend racing and screw up the racers. 

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The main offender here has a long history(15+) years of unashamed Sailing misfortunes. She has no idea of wind direction, speed or why she has a #2 Genoa or a blade jib for heavy weather. She has taken many poor sailors as crew and had her boat severely damaged several times going into irons at the windward mark (mostly). I refuse to do any more repair work for her and feel that she should be banned from any Sailing regattas. No one has the balls to enforce rules of racing against her because she does the artwork for our club yearbook and is an old lady.

For fun when I am feeling bad for her I watch the several videos I took of her leaving the dock a couple of weeks in a row for the Sunday races where the crew pushes back off the dock with the #1 only and do broad reaches port and starboard in our harbor until she runs aground 50 boatlengths astern of where she started and the folks at the beach have to help get her boat off the sandbar while the crew sits in the boat and scratches their heads. Our workboat is then employed to get her out of the harbor.

It’s like having Rimas around...

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Sailing came to require lawyer's skills that I do not want to learn. I like sailing boats, not law games (nor politics) therefore, I do not protest. If you want to beat me infringing rules, be my guest. As Paul Elvstrom said: "“You haven't won if, in doing so, you have lost the respect of your competitors.”

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27 minutes ago, Sysfx said:

Sailing came to require lawyer's skills that I do not want to learn. I like sailing boats, not law games (nor politics) therefore, I do not protest. If you want to beat me infringing rules, be my guest. As Paul Elvstrom said: "“You haven't won if, in doing so, you have lost the respect of your competitors.”

Paul Elvstrom was talking about people like you. 

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44 minutes ago, Sysfx said:

Sailing came to require lawyer's skills that I do not want to learn. I like sailing boats, not law games (nor politics) therefore, I do not protest. If you want to beat me infringing rules, be my guest. As Paul Elvstrom said: "“You haven't won if, in doing so, you have lost the respect of your competitors.”

You are already losing the respect of your competitors by dodging your duty to help enforce the rules of your sport. Even if you never set foot in a protest room, you still have a duty to inform a competitor that you think he is breaking a rule by protesting him.

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8 hours ago, Sysfx said:

Sailing came to require lawyer's skills 

wrong

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For more recreational racing, I would much rather engage the offending the bloke in the bar and nicely explain the rules. Most are happy to learn and understand - but for those who are idiots and don't want to listen and learn, time spent in a protest room won't make a difference.

 

That being said, damage or injury REQUIRE a written protest - with it, the racing rules apply, without it, here come the lawyers and the Colregs!

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Related to this point, I love it when people are arguing on the internet over rules and then some well-meaning but clueless captain's license holder blunders into the conversation saying "well, the COLREGS say..."

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Protesting is not a duty, it is a right.

That said, without rules there's no game. When it comes to the rules of sailing, good or bad, it seems that the "authorities" lost contact with the most important part of the rule: the ultimate goal. The goal of sailboat racing is fun, not the strict adherence to rules, nor the assistence on the enforcement of said rules by mean of protests. If I don't like someone's behavior, I do not invite him a beer to celebrate his "win". That's it. In fact, those guys tend to lose, especially in the middle term. In the long term they tend to disappear.

I hate sea lawyers, do not trust "authorities" and am not willing to spend my time fiddling with rules, protests, red tape and bureaucrats. Therefore, I sail one-design around the cans and do not protest. Also, I do not show up when I disapprove of the sponsors of an event. It is my way to do it. You don't like it? Your problem. Let's see who crosses the pond first.

We will live to see IOC, World Sailing and national sailing federations fight money laundering authorities sooner or later.

Cheers,

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42 minutes ago, Sysfx said:

Protesting is not a duty, it is a right.

You have already admitted to not reading the rules ... no need to keep demonstrating it.

"Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce."

Reads more like a duty to me.

 

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1 hour ago, random said:

You have already admitted to not reading the rules ... no need to keep demonstrating it.

"Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce."

Reads more like a duty to me.

 

You might read this

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/duty

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This topic pops up with a post like OP about every year.  Here we go again.

First, the RRS are, basically, modifications of the regular navigational rules.  Starts, mark roundings, and overtaking being the where most of the differences are.

Why all the whining about protests?  The arbitration option has been in the last couple of iterations of the RRS in the US and now its part of the RRS.  See Appendix T.

As some have pointed out, there are only a few rules in the RRS that actually apply to racing.  Most are about regatta management, etc.

And for you youngsters, be glad you didn't race back in the 1980s and before.  The rules were really complicated then.  ISAF, now World Sailing, and US Sailing have done a fair job of eliminating many of the quirks in the old rules.

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15 hours ago, Sysfx said:

Sailing came to require lawyer's skills that I do not want to learn. I like sailing boats, not law games (nor politics) therefore, I do not protest

You are lazy.  That's the fucking problem with the sport, lazy people who use excuses for their laziness.   The rules are simple, even simple people can understand them.

But if you have a learning disability, that might explain it.

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What I am against is precisely the oh so detailed knowledge of the RRS that you reveal when you misunderstand them. And also your will to use it to make a point against common sense. Pay atention: no corrupt sea lawying sport politician should be able to force one to enforce the arbitrary rules the same corrupts modify at their will. They will keep "expecting" forever! Do you know why they use that word, "expected"? It is because their intention is ilegal. They CANNOT make it any stronger. The fact is, only in THEIR court one can be expected to follow THEIR rule. We are all free to sail under the usual international treatys, which legaly prevail over racing rules.

Anyway, those douchebags do not represent me. I do not accept them, therefore I rebel. I also rebel against other "expert" stupidities. What do you say about banning the use of "worlds"? What about your local federation banning the use of "nationals"? Nobody owns a word! What's the klingon word for world? That one IS copyrighted. What's the Mayan or Inca word? It cannot be copyrighted. Do we really have to worry about this type of idiocy? Those vain attempts to twist reality are what keeps me from non-anarchyc racing. It is just simpler to go around the cans with minimal rules with others who think like me. Or not to race and just sail for pleasure. Have you heard of the Wave class Intergalactics? What about the Byte regattas with mandatory capsizes? Have you asked any kiteboarder about the ilustrious sailing authorities and "their" copyrighted rules? I am not alone. Not at all.

 

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4 hours ago, Sysfx said:

What I am against is precisely the oh so detailed knowledge of the RRS that you reveal when you misunderstand them. And also your will to use it to make a point against common sense. Pay atention: no corrupt sea lawying sport politician should be able to force one to enforce the arbitrary rules the same corrupts modify at their will. They will keep "expecting" forever! Do you know why they use that word, "expected"? It is because their intention is ilegal. They CANNOT make it any stronger. The fact is, only in THEIR court one can be expected to follow THEIR rule. We are all free to sail under the usual international treatys, which legaly prevail over racing rules.

Anyway, those douchebags do not represent me. I do not accept them, therefore I rebel. I also rebel against other "expert" stupidities. What do you say about banning the use of "worlds"? What about your local federation banning the use of "nationals"? Nobody owns a word! What's the klingon word for world? That one IS copyrighted. What's the Mayan or Inca word? It cannot be copyrighted. Do we really have to worry about this type of idiocy? Those vain attempts to twist reality are what keeps me from non-anarchyc racing. It is just simpler to go around the cans with minimal rules with others who think like me. Or not to race and just sail for pleasure. Have you heard of the Wave class Intergalactics? What about the Byte regattas with mandatory capsizes? Have you asked any kiteboarder about the ilustrious sailing authorities and "their" copyrighted rules? I am not alone. Not at all.

 

Oh, you're some kind of sovereign citizen asshole. Eat a dick.

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17 hours ago, Sysfx said:

What I am against is precisely the oh so detailed knowledge of the RRS that you reveal when you misunderstand them. And also your will to use it to make a point against common sense. Pay atention: no corrupt sea lawying sport politician should be able to force one to enforce the arbitrary rules the same corrupts modify at their will. They will keep "expecting" forever! Do you know why they use that word, "expected"? It is because their intention is ilegal. They CANNOT make it any stronger. The fact is, only in THEIR court one can be expected to follow THEIR rule. We are all free to sail under the usual international treatys, which legaly prevail over racing rules.

Anyway, those douchebags do not represent me. I do not accept them, therefore I rebel. I also rebel against other "expert" stupidities. What do you say about banning the use of "worlds"? What about your local federation banning the use of "nationals"? Nobody owns a word! What's the klingon word for world? That one IS copyrighted. What's the Mayan or Inca word? It cannot be copyrighted. Do we really have to worry about this type of idiocy? Those vain attempts to twist reality are what keeps me from non-anarchyc racing. It is just simpler to go around the cans with minimal rules with others who think like me. Or not to race and just sail for pleasure. Have you heard of the Wave class Intergalactics? What about the Byte regattas with mandatory capsizes? Have you asked any kiteboarder about the ilustrious sailing authorities and "their" copyrighted rules? I am not alone. Not at all.

 

I’m going to go out on a limb here.... you get protested a lot don’t you?

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On 11/8/2018 at 8:26 PM, Sysfx said:

What I am against is precisely the oh so detailed knowledge of the RRS that you reveal when you misunderstand them. And also your will to use it to make a point against common sense. Pay atention: no corrupt sea lawying sport politician should be able to force one to enforce the arbitrary rules the same corrupts modify at their will. They will keep "expecting" forever! Do you know why they use that word, "expected"? It is because their intention is ilegal. They CANNOT make it any stronger. The fact is, only in THEIR court one can be expected to follow THEIR rule. We are all free to sail under the usual international treatys, which legaly prevail over racing rules.

Anyway, those douchebags do not represent me. I do not accept them, therefore I rebel. I also rebel against other "expert" stupidities. What do you say about banning the use of "worlds"? What about your local federation banning the use of "nationals"? Nobody owns a word! What's the klingon word for world? That one IS copyrighted. What's the Mayan or Inca word? It cannot be copyrighted. Do we really have to worry about this type of idiocy? Those vain attempts to twist reality are what keeps me from non-anarchyc racing. It is just simpler to go around the cans with minimal rules with others who think like me. Or not to race and just sail for pleasure. Have you heard of the Wave class Intergalactics? What about the Byte regattas with mandatory capsizes? Have you asked any kiteboarder about the ilustrious sailing authorities and "their" copyrighted rules? I am not alone. Not at all.

 

 

wingnut.jpg

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On 11/9/2018 at 4:15 PM, The Main Man said:

I’m going to go out on a limb here.... you get protested a lot don’t you?

Yes, I was protested once, in 1984 or 5. It was withdrawn.

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On 11/1/2018 at 4:54 AM, random said:

If a boat is fouled and does not protest they broke Rule 2 that requires them to uphold the RRS.

Not this nonsense again. :blink:

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2 hours ago, Svanen said:

Not this nonsense again. :blink:

Read the Rule.  Clearly you have not.

If I saw you fouled by another boat, that boat did not do a penalty and you did not protest them, I would protest them for what they did (say Rule 10) and I would protest you for Rule 2.

You would both be disqualified.

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Wow! Losing friends and respect of your competitors is more important than growing sailing. How is that fleet of one going for you anyway?

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I don’t know random and am unable to say whether he sails, let alone races.

I do feel confident in suggesting that he is not a certified Judge.

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8 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Wow! Losing friends and respect of your competitors is more important than growing sailing. How is that fleet of one going for you anyway?

The best way to lose friends and respect is to break the rules and not do a penalty.

But you can join in on a circle-jerk of cheats that agree to break the rules because you want t be 'friends'.

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5 hours ago, Svanen said:

I don’t know random and am unable to say whether he sails, let alone races.

I do feel confident in suggesting that he is not a certified Judge.

I'm a sailor, been doing one design multi-hull and keel boat stuff for decades. 

This might come as a complete surprise to you but ... I'll break it to you gently ... you don't have to be a certified judge to know how the RRS apply.

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5 hours ago, random said:

The best way to lose friends and respect is to break the rules and not do a penalty.

But you can join in on a circle-jerk of cheats that agree to break the rules because you want t be 'friends'.

I'm am throwing the flag from this point forward...kind of done with the ole' on water encounter and discussion.  Everyone that has driven in a 1D fleet KNOWS when they foul especially under the simple Rules of When Boats Meet vs. Mark Roundings, which can be contentious and crowded.  

We have a competitor that continually challenges us, will not turn even if he knows he fouls unless he sees the flag.  I get it,....but you have lost a bit of respect there mate...The rule being broken is the infraction and nit picking the process when no money or anything is the award.  Silly shit...

 

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Basic rules of protesting:

- beer can: not so much, maybe an after race beer and discussion

- local racing: maybe, if consequential - lets not destroy a good afternoon of sailing in room just to make a point

- national and above: sure, but needs to be reasonable

 

over and out.

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4 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Basic rules of protesting:

- beer can: not so much, maybe an after race beer and discussion

- local racing: maybe, if consequential - lets not destroy a good afternoon of sailing in room just to make a point

- national and above: sure, but needs to be reasonable

 

over and out.

I don't know about the beer can thing.  I've seen our fleet gradually slide down the rules scale where Wed. night racing has just lost some of it's fun.  It's no fun when someone who knows better pulls a bonehead move and is denial about it just to win the Dacron class overall. It's a slippery slope. Sure it's a fun Wed night drinking beer but gross violations that nearly cause lots of $$$ damage take the fun right out of it. Just bcz they know they can get away with it. 

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6 hours ago, proOC said:

The rule being broken is the infraction and nit picking the process when no money or anything is the award.  Silly shit...

Wow.  Amazing stuff.  So sailing when there is no money as a prize ... doesn't need to follow the rules?

Amazing stuff.  Fuckwits like you spoil other people's sport.

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5 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Basic rules of protesting:

- beer can: not so much, maybe an after race beer and discussion

- local racing: maybe, if consequential - lets not destroy a good afternoon of sailing in room just to make a point

- national and above: sure, but needs to be reasonable

 

over and out.

Another amazing post.

How about you give me some examples of where a rule is broken at say Local Racing level, that does not have to be observed?

this should be good.

giphy.gif

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17 hours ago, random said:

Wow.  Amazing stuff.  So sailing when there is no money as a prize ... doesn't need to follow the rules?

Amazing stuff.  Fuckwits like you spoil other people's sport.

Not what I meant fuckwit....lol

A give way boat fouls, know's it then questions it,...then you try to be formal about it but we all know a rule has been broken then the "process" of taking it to a room is lengthy and tiresome...for everything or nothing.  Of course rules should be addressed and fouled everytime.  

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5 hours ago, proOC said:

Not what I meant fuckwit....lol

A give way boat fouls, know's it then questions it,...then you try to be formal about it but we all know a rule has been broken then the "process" of taking it to a room is lengthy and tiresome...for everything or nothing.  Of course rules should be addressed and fouled everytime.  

I have no idea what you just said, that makes not sense at all.

So tell me, what parts of RRS do you ignore at Beer Can level?  Or at any other type of racing?

After all, you did say ...

23 hours ago, random said:

The rule being broken is the infraction and nit picking the process when no money or anything is the award.  Silly shit...

 

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As an example - beer can race when i have to duck 2 feet - could i protest, yes. Will I? No - not worth my time. I told the guy he was wrong then and there, and so according to the rules, he will need to spin a circle or drop out, either way he may ruin the social event for his guests. I feel bad that I was even near that guy - could have been a cruiser, either way, doesn't affect me anymore.

Did it bother me, yes, for about 10 seconds. And you, likely back barking rules at the C-fleet and proud of yourself for it. Did our 'event' impact you? Not at all, so worry about your own C-fleeters you are dominating.

(and if I protested him, do you think he will show up at the meeting that may be 4 days later - not a chance, he won't care, and everyone would look at me like some wanker)

To each their own. Try explaining all this to your 3rd wife.......

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And that is what is wrong with sailing.

If that was a ball sport, do you think that would apply?  Just snicked the ball a little bit before it was caught?  How do you think that would go down? Or how about
my foot was only half out of bounds mate, what's your problem?

What happens after your example, is that you have trained the guy to risk your boat in a P&S (Rule 10) and that's fucking serious.  Particularly as it is a safety issue, not counting the expense.  Worse, is that next time he does it and someone calls him, the caller will be labelled a cunt because you clearly let him go.   I have seen this in action where due to social pressure, one friend let's the other friend off, doesn't call him.  Anyone else who does is clearly a rules Nazi prick! 

For your information I am still married to the same women after many decades, and I call my friends if the foul me, they know better than to push it with me.  I get respect for that.

But some people like you are only worried about themselves, what's convenient for you, fuck the sport you say!   I bet you expect to be let off in return, Fuck the rules!

Well fuck selfish pricks like you who bring the sport down for their own convenience.  Have a good hard think about it.

Edit: A classic I should have mentioned.  Here in Aus there is a saying used to calm people down when they get excited about the rules, goes like this

"Hey mate, calm down, we aren't playing for Sheep Stations you know!"  But the same prick that used that after being called for a foul, often goes fucking feral when he is fouled, all of a sudden the rules matter!  The hypocrisy is suffocating.

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5 hours ago, random said:

And that is what is wrong with sailing.

If that was a ball sport, do you think that would apply?  Just snicked the ball a little bit before it was caught?  How do you think that would go down? Or how about
my foot was only half out of bounds mate, what's your problem?

What happens after your example, is that you have trained the guy to risk your boat in a P&S (Rule 10) and that's fucking serious.  Particularly as it is a safety issue, not counting the expense.  Worse, is that next time he does it and someone calls him, the caller will be labelled a cunt because you clearly let him go.   I have seen this in action where due to social pressure, one friend let's the other friend off, doesn't call him.  Anyone else who does is clearly a rules Nazi prick! 

For your information I am still married to the same women after many decades, and I call my friends if the foul me, they know better than to push it with me.  I get respect for that.

But some people like you are only worried about themselves, what's convenient for you, fuck the sport you say!   I bet you expect to be let off in return, Fuck the rules!

Well fuck selfish pricks like you who bring the sport down for their own convenience.  Have a good hard think about it.

Edit: A classic I should have mentioned.  Here in Aus there is a saying used to calm people down when they get excited about the rules, goes like this

"Hey mate, calm down, we aren't playing for Sheep Stations you know!"  But the same prick that used that after being called for a foul, often goes fucking feral when he is fouled, all of a sudden the rules matter!  The hypocrisy is suffocating.

you need help

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3 hours ago, VWAP said:

 

you need help

giphy.gif

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3 hours ago, VWAP said:

 

you need help

Fine I'll help - he is exactly right. 

The way I look at it, if someone fouls you and you don't protest, you loose the right to bitch about it and you don't get to bitch when they do it again and again to you. 

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22 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

Fine I'll help - he is exactly right. 

The way I look at it, if someone fouls you and you don't protest, you loose the right to bitch about it and you don't get to bitch when they do it again and again to you. 

Yep. Unfortunately there are too many wankers out there that will take advantage if you don’t let them know it’s unacceptable.

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25 minutes ago, Gone Drinking said:

Fine I'll help - he is exactly right. 

The way I look at it, if someone fouls you and you don't protest, you loose the right to bitch about it and you don't get to bitch when they do it again and again to you. 

you missed the point. 

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This time I will type s-l-o-w-e-r for you.

I was recently at a high level regatta with high level people (read as VOR, Olympic medalists, multiple national champs, etc). It was umpired so no time was wasted after wards. A few thoought they were fouled and threw the Y flag - the umpires, who were mostly out of position,etc - made their various decisions (no contact so they are subjective, as most are). Some times someone was red flagged - do you think the flagged party 'learned' anything - nope! But they were pissed that the other party 'lied' about the protest, etc. But thats using the rules as weapons and is allowed at this level so they suck it up and move on.

Now take a much lower level club or beer can series - a decidely club racer pushes a crossing or a mark rounding - I can call him out right there (and likley have a discussion with him over a beer later an 'splain' it to him) or i can 'protest' and really 'teach him a lesson'. Since its word vs word, its only a 50% chance the outcome will be correct (assuming the protest committee is competent and been in a boat in the last 10 years), do you think the offending party will realy learn something and do you think this improves sailing? Teaching someone is lot more valuable than just being a dick to show how you swing.

Oh and I recommend chamomile, with just a taste of lemon!

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10 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

Now take a much lower level club or beer can series - a decidely club racer pushes a crossing or a mark rounding - I can call him out right there (and likley have a discussion with him over a beer later an 'splain' it to him) or i can 'protest' and really 'teach him a lesson'.

You can protest him on the water or you can shut the fuck up about it. Going to the room, ehh...

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