Point Break

Couple New Large Fires in Cali

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https://orangecountytribune.com/2018/11/13/goodbye-ggfd-hello-to-the-ocfa/

;)

BTW - the OCFA is a public agency, not private.

Private fire protection isn’t new at all. It’s been tried in a variety of settings, some successful most not. Private wildland hand crews have been around for quite a while, mostly based in the PNW. Most firefighting aircraft are private (all the VLT’s and most rotary wing) as are most dozers and water tenders. 

Michael Jackson had his own “Neverland FD” and Disneyland in Anaheim is a Private FD. Both rely heavily on the surrounding public agencies for help in all but the most basic emergencies. Most Cali Universities have their own FD’s and also lean on surrounding public agencies for lotsa help. Lots of airport FD’s are private as well. Oh, and all the Indian Casinos as well.

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

https://orangecountytribune.com/2018/11/13/goodbye-ggfd-hello-to-the-ocfa/

;)

BTW - the OCFA is a public agency, not private.

Private fire protection isn’t new at all. It’s been tried in a variety of settings, some successful most not. Private wildland hand crews have been around for quite a while, mostly based in the PNW. Most firefighting aircraft are private (all the VLT’s and most rotary wing) as are most dozers and water tenders. 

Michael Jackson had his own “Neverland FD” and Disneyland in Anaheim is a Private FD. Both rely heavily on the surrounding public agencies for help in all but the most basic emergencies. Most Cali Universities have their own FD’s and also lean on surrounding public agencies for lotsa help. Lots of airport FD’s are private as well. Oh, and all the Indian Casinos as well.

Meet some of these guys last year during the Thomas Fire...  They were from Sony, Warner Brothers, Paramount, and Chubb Insurance...  They studio guys got "hired by the insurance company" to protect some of the big homes in Ojai and Monticito...

 

 

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On 11/14/2018 at 2:19 AM, DA-WOODY said:

Ahw FUCK Here we go again

looks like a Water Bombing could put it out in a couple passes

But No Perspective on size or terrain etc

like watching a Fuse Burn down to the Explosive :(

Why didn’t they just cut the tree down?

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3 hours ago, Point Break said:

Really?   They describe themselves as an “independent entity” with Board of Directors drawn from members cities.   What part of that does the general public have a say in?

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3 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Really?   They describe themselves as an “independent entity” with Board of Directors drawn from members cities.   What part of that does the general public have a say in?

Same as any other JPA........in this case, instead of an independently elected “Fire Board” the Board of Directors is made up of one of the elected officials from each member city and two from the county. That member takes the consensus or direct vote from their own city council or county board of supervisors into the discussion and vote by the OCFA Board of Directors. 

Info on Joint Powers Authorities in California. 

https://sgf.senate.ca.gov/sites/sgf.senate.ca.gov/files/GWTFinalversion2.pdf

Quote


“Joint powers” is a term used to describe government agencies that have agreed to combine their powers and resources to work on their common problems. Joint powers agreements (JPAs) offer another way for governments to deliver services, but sometimes the public does not understand JPAs.

 

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1 hour ago, blunderfull said:

Lotta ground to cover there still. Both Placentia and Irvine gave notice of intent to withdraw in 2020. In both cases it’s a negotiating move to attempt to reduce the city’s contributions. It’s a real complex legal tangle, way too complicated to try to explain here. It’s certainly possible that both may eventually withdraw but it’s a thorny unclear road to do that. This isn’t a simple contract it’s the withdrawal from a separate governmental entity that may not be economically feasible for those two cities. At any rate the agency is made up of 23 member cities and the entire county unincorporated. Two of those 23 cities trying to renegotiate their membership costs is hardly a significant stampede away.

Bottom line, announcing intent is a hell of a long way from withdrawing. 

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8 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Lotta ground to cover there still. Both Placentia and Irvine gave notice of intent to withdraw in 2020. In both cases it’s a negotiating move to attempt to reduce the city’s contributions. It’s a real complex legal tangle, way too complicated to try to explain here. It’s certainly possible that both may eventually withdraw but it’s a thorny unclear road to do that. This isn’t a simple contract it’s the withdrawal from a separate governmental entity that may not be economically feasible for those two cities. At any rate the agency is made up of 23 member cities and the entire county unincorporated. Two of those 23 cities trying to renegotiate their membership costs is hardly a significant stampede away.

Bottom line, announcing intent is a hell of a long way from withdrawing. 

Kinda like Brexit!

 

And what happened to all those Hollywooders whose houses burned down after they said they would move to Canada if Trump got elected?

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BTW.....LA County Fire Department is a “Independent Fire District” whose members are the LA unincorporated areas and 59 cities. Different governing structure than a JPA. In this case the cities have no representation on a board of directors and those services are governed exclusively by the LA County Board of Supervisors. 

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6 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Kinda like Brexit!

Yep, good call there......not as big, but a LOT of unclear legal ground involved in disentangling and changing the funding stream of taxes. Pretty complicated.....

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16 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Yep, good call there......not as big, but a LOT of unclear legal ground involved in disentangling and changing the funding stream of taxes. Pretty complicated.....

Sure, this has been dragging on for years - the original framework didn’t provide for big increases in property values in some areas.  Irvine feels like they’re paying for the po’ folks in Santa Ana. And the OCFA basically said a deals a deal and lets see what we have in 2030 when the agreement ends.  By some estimates Irvine will overspend by $5 to $10 mil annually against services received.  That’s a tough sell no matter how you slice it up.   

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15 minutes ago, blunderfull said:

Sure, this has been dragging on for years - the original framework didn’t provide for big increases in property values in some areas.  Irvine feels like they’re paying for the po’ folks in Santa Ana. And the OCFA basically said a deals a deal and lets see what we have in 2030 when the agreement ends.  By some estimates Irvine will overspend by $5 to $10 mil annually against services received.  That’s a tough sell no matter how you slice it up.   

You are right about the property values and original framework piece. “Overpay” is a bit of a misnomer. 100% of the property taxes collected and designated for fire protection flow to the state, then to the county then to OCFA. Those taxes can ONLY be spent on fire protection. The city cannot spend some on fire protection and divert the rest to something else. IF the city could leave and start their own fire department or contract with a private entity.....they still must spend the same amount of money on fire protection since that’s what it’s specfically collected for. They can’t “save” or redirect any of that money. There are a number of other issues that are similarly unclear. Lots of attorneys will get rich sorting this one out if it goes that far. Still lotsa ground to cover in the next two years. 

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On a dark note , we may have so many more firestorms there will be little argument over “how much we pay” but rather “please save my town, whatever it takes.”

And we haven’t even begun to get our heads around the effects of wildfire smoke toxins on public health for sustained periods of time.  Air quality in Santa Rosa requires masks at the ready all times.  My sister is hopeful the city can rebuild (currently 1700 new builds versus 1500 properties with no plans) but, when you can’t breathe clean air you have to wonder if it’s time to move on.

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1 hour ago, silent bob said:

Kinda like   Brexit   Sucking Fucking chargers !

 

And what happened to all those Hollywooders whose houses burned down after they said they would move to Canada if Trump got elected?

fixed (1 could say)

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11 hours ago, nacradriver said:

Please tell me the asshole ended up doing time in Gen-Pop.

In the Army, depending on the length of the sentence they either went to a stockade somewhere or if they were sentenced to 4 years or more, they went to FT Leavenworth, Kansas.  They had a special area there for sex offenders (for obvious reasons).   

There is a program to treat pedophiles at FT Leavenworth.  Quite honestly, there is no real effective treatment for pedophiles that produces a lasting result.   About the only marginally effective treatment is chemical castration.  No, they don't dip the offender's junk in hydrochloric acid (unfortunately), they are given a drug that basically kills the libido.  Due to bans on cruel and unusual punishment, the offender has to agree to this treatment.   The drug is effective but of course there can be problems with compliance with the treatment.

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1 hour ago, Ed Lada said:

In the Army, depending on the length of the sentence they either went to a stockade somewhere or if they were sentenced to 4 years or more, they went to FT Leavenworth, Kansas.  They had a special area there for sex offenders (for obvious reasons).   

There is a program to treat pedophiles at FT Leavenworth.  Quite honestly, there is no real effective treatment for pedophiles that produces a lasting result.   About the only marginally effective treatment is chemical castration.  No, they don't dip the offender's junk in hydrochloric acid (unfortunately), they are given a drug that basically kills the libido.  Due to bans on cruel and unusual punishment, the offender has to agree to this treatment.   The drug is effective but of course there can be problems with compliance with the treatment.

I can't even try to imagine attempting to have that conversation with the offender!!!!

If ever there was a reason for a review of the death penalty, this is definitely one of them.

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7 hours ago, Point Break said:

Lotta ground to cover there still. Both Placentia and Irvine gave notice of intent to withdraw in 2020. In both cases it’s a negotiating move to attempt to reduce the city’s contributions. It’s a real complex legal tangle, way too complicated to try to explain here. It’s certainly possible that both may eventually withdraw but it’s a thorny unclear road to do that. This isn’t a simple contract it’s the withdrawal from a separate governmental entity that may not be economically feasible for those two cities. At any rate the agency is made up of 23 member cities and the entire county unincorporated. Two of those 23 cities trying to renegotiate their membership costs is hardly a significant stampede away.

Bottom line, announcing intent is a hell of a long way from withdrawing. 

My old department is a special district, existed long before a couple cities grew up inside the boundaries.

At the time it was great for the cities, they got fire protection which freed up cash to spend elsewhere. Over time the cities sales tax rate came in line with surrounding cities and the district was able to get a few mill levy increases as it transitioned from all volunteer to all paid. So citizens pay the same in taxes to the city as well as a hefty mill on property to fund the fire district. 

A couple times the bigger, richer city has threatened to pull out. Of course anybody with a brain realizes it's just political bluster since they would have to finance a very expensive service as well as continue to service the pension for many years.

No easy, or affordable answers.

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1 hour ago, bmiller said:

No easy, or affordable answers.

Never a truer word was spoken.

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Just got back to SFO. Holy shit the air quality got worse. Most schools are closed down. # missing over 600...

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I've got my people wearing N95 masks in the office. It's almost as bad as Seattle was in August.

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Wind supposed to start onshore in the next day or so....should help with the smoke.

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They probably wish that their little single wide burnt with the rest! Maybe could upgrade to a double wide next time.

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Now that is a keeper! Tile roof must have been a factor as well as hardly any overhang to the eaves and almost no fascia. 

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  Yes, that house was built to all the fire avoidance techniques & materials.

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Bui house Laguna Fire Oct 1993

1212_nws_ocr-l-firebuild-01.jpg

It would be interesting to see a current image. I'll bet most of those lots are rebuilt.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Now that is a keeper! Tile roof must have been a factor as well as hardly any overhang to the eaves and almost no fascia. 

 

1 hour ago, longy said:

  Yes, that house was built to all the fire avoidance techniques & materials.

https://www.finehomebuilding.com/1995/06/01/fire-resistant-details

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1 hour ago, Point Break said:

Bui house Laguna Fire Oct 1993

1212_nws_ocr-l-firebuild-01.jpg

That’s unbelievable, doesn’t even appear to have any heat or smoke damage. 

How does that happen?

Edit,

thanks for the link about fire proofing techniques, interesting. What are the building codes going to be like for replacement towns?

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15 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

  Quite honestly, there is no real effective treatment for pedophiles that produces a lasting result.  

7.62 NATO?

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4 minutes ago, nacradriver said:

7.62 NATO?

You could probably economise on the costs and go for 5.56

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I'd do it bit by bit. If the first one doesn't do it, just keep on going.

61e7EZucm6L._SL1500_.jpg

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I vote we stop this train of thought.   

It seems to be the one universal thing to raise a Lynch mob, and I don’t think this is the thread for it. 

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2 hours ago, mad said:

That’s unbelievable, doesn’t even appear to have any heat or smoke damage. 

How does that happen?

Edit,

thanks for the link about fire proofing techniques, interesting. What are the building codes going to be like for replacement towns?

Expensive.

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I wouldn't bet on it. They have to burn down (or flood or get hit by hurricanes or tornadoes) three or four times before people believe it's a new normal.

 

 

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2 hours ago, bmiller said:

Expensive.

Maybe not. We have fire rated shingles, covered gutters, no landscaping touching the house, 7 foot setbacks so 14 ft between houses. Yeah, the shingles were a little more, not a lot in the scheme of things. Those tile roofs are good as long as they have spark barriers in the tunnels. Maybe it’s a bunch of little things.

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12 hours ago, nacradriver said:

7.62 NATO?

Nhaaa, you need Joe Druce as an inmate.

http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/massachusetts/worcester/Geoghan_killed.htm

 

Joe jammed the locks shut in a brand new Supermax prison so the guards could not stop him from choking the pedo priest (pounded on him, stuffed a sock down his air pipe and kept pounding on him as the priest slowly choked to death, the whole time the guards are frantically trying to unjam the doors).

Joe says he was molested as a kid and he caught the infamous priest laughing about what he had done to children so he took things into his own hands (literally).

Pure evil (killed several innocent people for chuckles to get into MCI Shirley in the first place), but very clever.

 

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16 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

single house survives...  how would you deal with that, all your neighbors are going to hate you..

 

6278234-6397929-image-a-135_154238187022

Bet they all laughed at him for paving his entire yard.

He got the last laugh..

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11 hours ago, bmiller said:

Expensive.

Stuff happens....simply have to find a balance without ridiculous codes...

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Hoping the missing count is just that, people displaced and just not accounted for.  Just redirecting the thread to the tragedy unfolding. 

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should be 2 threads

Fires Burning pretty HOT Topic at the moment

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

Hoping the missing count is just that, people displaced and just not accounted for.  Just redirecting the thread to the tragedy unfolding. 

The son (who is a firefighter) of a guy I worked with is being sent to the Camp fire as part of a regional task force that is being assembled for the task of searching for bodies. That is unprecedented in my career. That task was always something handled by the local authorities post fire and was not so large a task that it required a regional response of people to perform that task. I fear that is a peek into the likelihood the local command team and officials judge the loss of life is huge. Just received the information that another guy some of us worked with on a state level whose house burnt down in Paradise was just informed that his missing sister's remains (who was at the house alone during the fire and was "missing") were just found in the rubble of his home.

I think the numbers will be staggering...........

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The roads into most of these areas are narrow and winding. I’m pretty fearful that the death toll will be very high.

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BTW - the structures lost update for the Camp fire is now just under 12,000. Yes.......that's the right number of zeros............

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It surprises me that the national media is giving this just average attention. After a hurricane the photos are everywhere of the destruction. Everybody pointing fingers and assigning blame. The east coast snow storm is getting more coverage.This seems to be outside the norm enough that no one is quite sure what to do. The regional mobilization for body recovery is a very, very bad sign. Tragic

 

WL 

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7 hours ago, White Lightnin' said:

It surprises me that the national media is giving this just average attention. After a hurricane the photos are everywhere of the destruction. Everybody pointing fingers and assigning blame. The east coast snow storm is getting more coverage.This seems to be outside the norm enough that no one is quite sure what to do. The regional mobilization for body recovery is a very, very bad sign. Tragic

 

WL 

I understand why this isn’t getting a lot of attention. Paradise is not a major market. Small town in effectively the middle of nowhere. California is the state the rest of the country loves to hate. 

A huuicane in the south effects people’s vacation area and or everyone knows someone who lives there. There’s no large emotional connection to a place like paradise.

but let’s all start raking the forest floor so this doesn’t happen again.

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What about LA?  Malibu? That a regional market?  Fire burned on to Pt Dume for gods sake.

unfortunately, this is pure politics.  Gov. Brown has been cutting money for firefighting, and blocking logging/fuels management and this is the direct end result.  No one wants to look at it and point out that this is not “global warming” this is poor woodland management.   Sorry, it is time to assign blame and then prevent this from happening again.  People who understand this stuff have been saying this would happen for years and then been shushed by the environmentalists .   People have died and it’s time to point out the realities of the situation, not blame someone for not “believing “ in global warming

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5 minutes ago, A.M.S. said:

What about LA?  Malibu? That a regional market?  Fire burned on to Pt Dume for gods sake.

unfortunately, this is pure politics.  Gov. Brown has been cutting money for firefighting, and blocking logging/fuels management and this is the direct end result.  No one wants to look at it and point out that this is not “global warming” this is poor woodland management.   Sorry, it is time to assign blame and then prevent this from happening again.  People who understand this stuff have been saying this would happen for years and then been shushed by the environmentalists .   People have died and it’s time to point out the realities of the situation, not blame someone for not “believing “ in global warming

Take it to PA...

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11 minutes ago, A.M.S. said:

What about LA?  Malibu? That a regional market?  Fire burned on to Pt Dume for gods sake.

unfortunately, this is pure politics.  Gov. Brown has been cutting money for firefighting, and blocking logging/fuels management and this is the direct end result.  No one wants to look at it and point out that this is not “global warming” this is poor woodland management.   Sorry, it is time to assign blame and then prevent this from happening again.  People who understand this stuff have been saying this would happen for years and then been shushed by the environmentalists .   People have died and it’s time to point out the realities of the situation, not blame someone for not “believing “ in global warming

Just so you know...the fires in the Malibu area are not burning thru what anyone would call 'timber'. Nothing that would be 'logged'. It is all brush except where trees have been planted and irrigated around homes. People 'who understand this stuff' also feel logging increases fire danger because of all the slash left behind, and the brush that grows in the timber's place. But of course we could rake it all clean and tidy.

That said, these homeowners could do much more in the way of making defensible areas around their homes. Take a look at the 'before' images in Google Street View for an idea how lazy, and unaware, these homeowners are.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

Take it to PA...

I get it, it has spun your world view around in a way that is hard to comprehend or excuse.....but just clamping your hands over your ears and crying won’t make it go away.....

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It’s not just “timber”....it’s fuels management.   If there had been controlled burns on the hillsides, this never would have happened.  There was 25 years or more worth of underbrush up there,had it been managed it never would have reached a poorly managed backyard neighborhood.    Managing forests leaves no slash at all, it all gets burned out after the first snow......

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I think we've veered away from the reality.  Wildfires have been a natural occurrence in California for millennia, pouring down those canyons, propelled by Santa Ana winds.  Just a normal part of the natural world, and also highly beneficial to the ecosystem.

But in the last 60-80 years we've been lured into building homes and indeed whole towns in those high-risk areas. 

The real estate guys absolutely knew the risks.  As did the city and county managers.  Did they tell the buyers?

The money was just too good.

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Whatever happened to ice plant? That stuff carpeted the canyon sides in San Diego when I was in High School. Hit a patch at 30 mph on a dirt bike and you will know why they call it 'iceplant'! Good for fire break though. 

Image result for ice plant

   Looks like it is considered an 'invasive species' these days out in CA. 

 

Looks 

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2 hours ago, A.M.S. said:

It’s not just “timber”....it’s fuels management.   If there had been controlled burns on the hillsides, this never would have happened.  There was 25 years or more worth of underbrush up there,had it been managed it never would have reached a poorly managed backyard neighborhood.    Managing forests leaves no slash at all, it all gets burned out after the first snow......

Nobody is going to do “controlled” burns anywhere near California development. They do it in parks sometimes. The preparation is very expensive. Only done for fire-lifecycle ecological reasons. Hand clearing is cheaper and safer. I burn piles of cuttings every year. In Big Sur. The material is nearly explosive. Ceanothus burns like jet fuel. Lighting it on a slope, even after a rain, would be spactacular.

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Maybe.....but I’ve walked on 4 foot deep stands of Manzanita that the Incredible Hulk couldn’t clear.  But either way, NEITHER of those things were done around Malibu and that why we are where we are today.   Maybe the math changes:  Maybe “very expensive”looks cheap after so many multi-million dollar homes went up in flames.....to say nothing of the loss of life.

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7 minutes ago, A.M.S. said:

Maybe.....but I’ve walked on 4 foot deep stands of Manzanita that the Incredible Hulk couldn’t clear.  But either way, NEITHER of those things were done around Malibu and that why we are where we are today.   Maybe the math changes:  Maybe “very expensive”looks cheap after so many multi-million dollar homes went up in flames.....to say nothing of the loss of life.

It won’t go cheap.

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3 hours ago, A.M.S. said:

It’s not just “timber”....it’s fuels management.   If there had been controlled burns on the hillsides, this never would have happened.  There was 25 years or more worth of underbrush up there,had it been managed it never would have reached a poorly managed backyard neighborhood.    Managing forests leaves no slash at all, it all gets burned out after the first snow......

snow? a very common occurrence in the santa monica range.

fyi, a fair bit of it's federal land. they have interesting information talking about fire history there: https://www.nps.gov/samo/learn/management/firefrequency.htm

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Has the cause of the Camp fire been determined yet?

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me starting to think fucks like Rocket Man in NK and the Honduran mob are but a distraction

while we are being taken down by terrorists with cigarette buts

:-(

no I don't go to PA

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1 hour ago, hobot said:

Has the cause of the Camp fire been determined yet?

Still under investigation but i’m pretty sure it’s gonna wind up being Pacific Gas & Electric (utility company) equipment...likely a downed transmission line in the wind. Same cause, different utility company, for the Woolsey Fire in Ventura/Malibu. 

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3 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Whatever happened to ice plant? That stuff carpeted the canyon sides in San Diego when I was in High School. Hit a patch at 30 mph on a dirt bike and you will know why they call it 'iceplant'! Good for fire break though. 

Image result for ice plant

   Looks like it is considered an 'invasive species' these days out in CA. 

 

Looks 

When Ventura County Fire Chief Mark Lorenzen stopped in the morning to visit one of his firefighters at home, he noticed a plant burning in the yard. It was an ice plant. It’s a succulent that’s supposed to be fire-resistant.

“Ice plant is not supposed to burn,” Lorenzen said at a news conference. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/it-is-not-safe-california-wildfires-continue-deadly-assault-on-populated-areas/2018/11/11/9f4eff1e-e5e7-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.9d1f6761d865

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Fires in the front county of the Santa Monica Mountains is nothing new. Neither is our refusal to learn from each one......I’ve been on 6 of them.

Quote

Malibu Wildfires

10/26/1929 - Malibu Colony, 13 homes burned.

1930 - "Potrero," Decker Canyon Road Corridor, 15,000 acres, accidental blaze caused by walnut pickers in Thousand Oaks area.

10/23/1935 - "Malibu" or "Latigo/Sherwood," Kanan/Decker Corridor, 30,000 acres.

11/23/1938 - "Topanga," Topanga Canyon, 14,500 acres.

 

10/20/1943 - "Las Flores," Malibu Canyon, 5,800 acres.

11/6/1943 - "Woodland Hills (Las Virgenes)," Kanan/Decker Corridor, 15,000 acres.

12/26/1956 - "Newton," Kanan/Decker Corridor, 26,000 acres, 100 homes, one death, Frank Dickover.

12/2/1958 - "Liberty," Malibu Canyon, 18,000 acres, eight firefighters injured, 74 homes destroyed (17 in Corral Canyon).

11/6/1961 - "Topanga," Topanga Canyon, 8,000 acres.

9/25/1970 - "Wright," Malibu Canyon, 28,000 acres, 10 deaths, 103 homes destroyed.

10/30/1973 - "Topanga," Topanga Canyon, 2,800 acres.

10/23/1978 - "Kanan," Kanan/Decker Corridor, 25,000 acres, 2 deaths, 230 homes.

10/09/1982 - "Dayton," Malibu Canyon Corridor, 44,000 acres, 15 homes in Paradise Cove destroyed.

10/14/1985 - "Piuma," Las Flores area, Topanga Canyon, 4,700 acres.

10/14/1985 - "Decker," Kanan/Decker Corridor, 6,600 acres. Both arson-caused; six homes destroyed; $1 million damage.

11/2/1993 - "Old Topanga Fire," Topanga Canyon Corridor, at the time "the largest deployment of firefighters in the history of California," 3 civilian deaths, 565 firefighters injured (five in Malibu), 16,800 acres burned, 369 homes (268 in Malibu) destroyed. $219 million damage.

10/28/1996 - "Calabasas," Malibu Canyon Corridor, Brush fire ignited by arcing power line, 13,000 acres; 10 houses destroyed.

1/6/2003 - "Pacific," began near Pacific Coast Highway near Broad Beach, 759 acres, three homes damaged. Possibly sparked by power lines. Evacuations in Encinal and Decker canyons. Fires in Latigo and Corral canyons burned 20 acres.

1/8/2007 - "Malibu Road," began at Malibu Bluffs State Park, 20 acres burned, five homes destroyed, six damaged. Speculated cause, "discarded smoking materials." $60-$100 million damage.

10/21/2007 - "Canyon" Fire - 4,565 acres burned; three firefighters injured; six homes destroyed (four within city limits); 15 homes damaged; 2,100 residents evacuated.

 

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  Is there any "overlap" data? ie, how long after a catastrophic fire (very high ground temps) does it take to re-grow the underbrush?

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14 minutes ago, longy said:

  Is there any "overlap" data? ie, how long after a catastrophic fire (very high ground temps) does it take to re-grow the underbrush?

It sorta depends on a variety of factors, but VERY GENERALLY in Southern Cali chaparral it’s about 3 years before there is enough coverage in the burn scar to reduce the risks of winter debris flows, and 8-10 before the chaparral is fully restored. 25 years is an “old growth” fuel bed and 50+ year fuel beds are not uncommon. But in the same place a really hot fire came through, somewhere around 8-10 years before it’s a fuel bed capable of carrying significant fire again.

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3 hours ago, A.M.S. said:

Substitute “rain” for the flatlanders......

rain? or a good, soaking, fire preventing rain? when I lived down there the number of good rains a year could be very few

@longy the nps has some maps on time between fires in the santa monica range, it's either on the link or googlable. it's interesting info. stuff burns too often (the fires are "human" caused) and doesn't regrow proper.

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This thread was bound to attract a jackass or two at some point.  I took this yesterday morning, looking at the Santa Monicas from above Moorpark.  My sister in law's house was spared, above Malibu High, surrounded by a horseshoe of burndowns.  Happy for her of course...but I'll wait til the next 'my family is insane' thread to pick up that topic.

IMG_5986.thumb.jpg.301bed9a9af4a3a179158e5012e23587.jpg

 

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Teams are in place.....the tedious exhausting search work begins. The update below is from the Cal Fire Butte County Unit. Pics are 3 USAR Firefighters ready to go and the operational briefing for one small section.

Quote

Multiple California Urban Search & Rescue (US&R) Task Forces and US&R Human Remains Detection Canine Search Teams have been deployed from across California to assist Butte County Sheriff with the search for, and recovery of,  victims missing in Paradise and other towns devastated by the  #CampFire.  Among the specialized resources responding to aid in the search are four California Regional US&R Task Forces, each consisting of 29 members from local government fire departments, three local/state/national US&R Task Forces (each consisting of 35 members from California fire departments,) and ten Urban Search & Rescue Human Remains Detection Canine Teams

California US&R resources are using their specialized human and canine skills to assist in the search for missing victims in nearly 13,000 residential, commercial and public buildings that burned in the fast-moving fire.

#ButteCounty Town of ParadiseParadise Police Department U.S. Forest Service-Plumas National Forest CHP – Valley Division Lassen National Forest CHP – Chico CAL FIRE Cal OES

 

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8EB98E45-50B9-44AF-B6B9-788E70C5CC7B.jpeg

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46432682_10218077838923397_9013263130087653376_n.jpg

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46414521_2090430157645461_3421098020001808384_o.jpg

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Question for PB and others from the field 

In such a Massive Wind Whipped Fire what roll do the FF'ers expect to play ?

is it to slow the fire so people can escape or steer it around an area

only asking about unimaginable fires like the current ones that seam to be too explosive to actually extinguish 

That NOT to discount all the resources and work put in just a question from someone wondering the thoughts of those actually fighting the fires

of course if one Can be extinguished that is the Goal but ....

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19 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

Question for PB and others from the field 

In such a Massive Wind Whipped Fire what roll do the FF'ers expect to play ?

is it to slow the fire so people can escape or steer it around an area

The work is often clearing firebreaks far ahead of the fire. The hope is that if the wind diminshes a backfire might be set from those cleared breaks. This might make a larger space that the main fire reaches much later, perhaps upon the next day's high winds, but cannot easily cross. Sometimes works.

Little is done actually squirting water on flames. Much work goes into watching and working the edges that have mostly stopped burning to avoid anything re-starting.

It is a bit like a military campaign, too, as a huge proportion of the work is simply getting food, fuel, and water to the front lines.

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34 minutes ago, DA-WOODY said:

Question for PB and others from the field 

In such a Massive Wind Whipped Fire what roll do the FF'ers expect to play ?

is it to slow the fire so people can escape or steer it around an area

only asking about unimaginable fires like the current ones that seam to be too explosive to actually extinguish 

That NOT to discount all the resources and work put in just a question from someone wondering the thoughts of those actually fighting the fires

of course if one Can be extinguished that is the Goal but ....

Without getting too in the details, the firefighting efforts are generally divided into perimeter control efforts and structure (or infrastructure) protection. The type and configurations of the firefighting resources for each task are different. During the initial attack phase of the fire - which can run anywhere from 12 to 48 hours and in some cases longer - if there are significant "values at risk" meaning people and infrastructure then most if not all the efforts are directed at defending structures (either by steering the fire around structures or firing out which is setting small fires between the structure and the oncoming fire front - which is similar but different than large backfiring operations) and protecting evacuation routes or persons sheltered in place. This often is done by defending/protecting in one place until the fire front passes and then leapfrogging back out front to do it again. During the initial attack period there is little incident wide effective coordination and a lot of independent action by individual resources knowing that the organizational efforts are underway. Eventually a command structure is established which in the case of a large fire it will be a "fire team" brought in to organize and coordinate the firefighting efforts and set up to provide the logistical and planning support necessary for sustained operations. At the same time, resources from around the state will begin arriving and once the necessary resources (fire engines, crews, aircraft, dozers, water tenders etc) arrive and can be assigned, then perimeter control or containment activities can be initiated. At this point those operations continue concurrent with the ongoing structure/infrastructure operations.

That is a simplified overview.

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One down.....search markings show the building was searched, the day/time, who searched it and nothing found......11,999 to go..............

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4 hours ago, Point Break said:

1B12D535-44E8-4DF6-8C85-99F565F713BB.jpeg

In Yosemite this week and I have seen what seems like hundreds of thousands of acres that look like the bottom right picture. Its sobering.  Lots of salvage lumber operations going on.  Is it even possible to manage such vast, remote and inaccessible land?

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3 minutes ago, 2slow said:

In Yosemite this week and I have seen what seems like hundreds of thousands of acres that look like the bottom right picture. Its sobering.  Lots of salvage lumber operations going on.  Is it even possible to manage such vast, remote and inaccessible land?

Yes.....but it will take a long time to overcome the decades of mistakes we made.

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18 hours ago, 2slow said:

In Yosemite this week and I have seen what seems like hundreds of thousands of acres that look like the bottom right picture. Its sobering.  Lots of salvage lumber operations going on.  Is it even possible to manage such vast, remote and inaccessible land?

Sure it is, with the proper leadership.. 

 

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21 hours ago, Point Break said:

Yes.....but it will take a long time to overcome the decades of mistakes we made.

And......don't get me wrong, I am as strident a conservationist as most folks. I care a lot about the "fauna and flora". The motivation was meritorious....they were just wrong. As the view slid from wise use to no use and the emphasis became put all fires out within the first burning period...........we failed to see there was appropriate middle ground.

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