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Coquina012

505 vs. 470

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I keep having bad luck:  running across almost free boats that want to follow me home.  I have both a 505 and a 470 asleep on the front porch, begging for food.  Use would be non racing, just planing around and sailing for fun with my wife, who weighs about 125 lbs.  She has never sailed a boat with a trapeze but was a  college level gymnast and still teaches gymnastics.  She wanrs a trapeze boat.   I usually weigh around 190.  Both of us are in good physical shape.  I hvae never sailed either craft, but we have had several planing boats and we also are used to being uncool, so I would put a reef in either sail with no reservation whatsoever about any purist opinion.   Anyone out there experienced in both boats?  Which would be more fun recreationally?  Please avoid the "it depends on what YOU like".  I know it is subjective.  A comparison of the two by someone who has sailed both would be nice.  

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I am very much biased to the 505. I had one for several years and loved it. Sold it only due to life changes and couldn't watch it turn into a weed catcher. The 470 is a good platform but the build quality, at least the ones I was familiar with, was suspect. We had a demo that got very soft in two months of taking people out to "show" it off.

What are the average winds in your area? If your wife is an adrenaline junky and very fit, you could probably sail the 505 up to 20 knots without too much trouble, though you'll need to learn tuning tips to depower. Reefing isn't the greatest idea. Speed is a better friend. What I would suggest is to teach her to drive and you go out on the wire. Back when I was racing one, I think around 60% of the boats were owned by the guys on the wire. Get a long tiller extension, maybe telescoping, and you can sometimes drive from the wire. I used to single hand mine up to about 10 knots from the wire. Good practice for the Swift Solo I now have. I even had a couple times on a three sail reach. What a rush.

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They are very similar in a lot of aspects and once you can sail one, you will manage the other pretty well. If you are after fun, speed and regular sailing; go for 505. If you are after occasional sailing and minimizing risk of capsize, taking a riff in the 505, go for 470. If both boats are in proper condition, I would advise to begin with 470, build confidence then switch to 505 to raise speed and fun.

Interesting quote about the comparison between the two:

Quote

Top sailors in the 505 class are happy to answer questions and help others. Lots of information and support is available for new 505 sailors. Top 470 sailors race 470 because they hope to go to the Olympics; top 505 sailors race 505s because they love the boat, the class and the people.

 

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We live 7 minutes from a lake with around a 2 mile reach each way.  With  no storms, winds are usually in the 8-12ish range.  Ideal for low stress sailing.   We don't need to build confidence.  I think I am inclined towards the 505.  Interesting comment about learning to build speed being better than putting reefs in the sail.  My wife has built five sails so we could also put together a reduced area sail for windier conditions.  We sail in the Bay area but a 505 would not be a boat to take out there initially.  We sail a plastic Wayfarer and a wooden Coquina out of Richmond, Sausalito, and South Bay (Redwood City).  Another plus for the 505 is the seller has a new Holder 12 laying around that he will throw in.  I don't like plastic boats but they are a nice little single planing boat to get in and out of the lake with quick.  We have 6 boats so I definitely need two more. 

 

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Who would be steering, and who would be crewing?  Five-O is hands down the better boat.  Your wife is too small to crew one, but she is the ideal size to skipper a 470.

I had a 470 many moons ago and enjoyed having a the trapeze, spinnaker, etc. I was fortunate to have a local fleet.  However as others have stated, the build quality is poor and there is virtually no national class.

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5-O crew weight hovers around 350-400, 470 is much less than that (260-300) should be easier to handle, and since they’re more or less disposable should be cheaper. I used to own a fiveoh but had to sell it to pay for school, the boat is a frigging riot, but needs 175+ on the wire to let it rip, stunting that with tiny sails would just be a damn shame. 

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The 5O5 is much better built, just enough bigger to be actually comfortable to sit in, and has fewer quirks in it's handling and it's range of performance.

Long time ago, I raced 470s and loved the boat. But with more experience I learned more and more of it's quirks and weaknesses, and to me it's not a temptation at all to pick up a free one to make into a fun daysailer. OTOH I have rebuilt two 5O5s to use in a youth sailing program and while I am NOT familiar with all their quirks, they are strongly built and durable (this is one of the 470s main failings..... they are flimsy), and the rigging can be simplified for fun sailing.

My 2c

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Coquina012 said:

We live 7 minutes from a lake with around a 2 mile reach each way.  With  no storms, winds are usually in the 8-12ish range.  Ideal for low stress sailing.   We don't need to build confidence.  I think I am inclined towards the 505.  Interesting comment about learning to build speed being better than putting reefs in the sail.  My wife has built five sails so we could also put together a reduced area sail for windier conditions.  We sail in the Bay area but a 505 would not be a boat to take out there initially.  We sail a plastic Wayfarer and a wooden Coquina out of Richmond, Sausalito, and South Bay (Redwood City).  Another plus for the 505 is the seller has a new Holder 12 laying around that he will throw in.  I don't like plastic boats but they are a nice little single planing boat to get in and out of the lake with quick.  We have 6 boats so I definitely need two more. 

 

Unless you have experience in high performance boats with trapezes, you may need to build a little confidence. I'm stating this coming from a high performance boat (Formula 18 cat, foiling A-Cat) and a good bit of college dinghy experience. I spent more time upside down in the 505 last year than I care to admit, and this was with an experienced helm. The boat is forgiving in  the 8 kt wind range but once the wind picks up above that pulling off good tacks and gybes is a physically demanding effort. Highly enjoyable when you get it wrong but very wet when you don't!

I also concur with the statements regarding build quality, even the softer older 505's are still reasonably well built. If you can dig up an old Waterrat that would be a nice find.

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both are great boats for your weight class and purposes. However, i would definitely recommend you get on the wire and teach her to drive - both because it gets the weight to a more effective place, but also because then she gets to drive... The 505 will likely have some better support and, if you're talking almost free boats, will likely be in better shape and hold up better. I love the 470, but i'm in the minority of adult dudes that fit them (for racing) without becoming bulimic. 

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58 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Unless you have experience in high performance boats with trapezes, you may need to build a little confidence. I'm stating this coming from a high performance boat (Formula 18 cat, foiling A-Cat) and a good bit of college dinghy experience. I spent more time upside down in the 505 last year than I care to admit, and this was with an experienced helm. The boat is forgiving in  the 8 kt wind range but once the wind picks up above that pulling off good tacks and gybes is a physically demanding effort. Highly enjoyable when you get it wrong but very wet when you don't!

I also concur with the statements regarding build quality, even the softer older 505's are still reasonably well built. If you can dig up an old Waterrat that would be a nice find.

more than happy to take a ride down to naptown and capsize a 505 with you - still badly missing unleaded sailing! (never did get to race the F18 last season, either). 

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As others have stated, size wise you are in the 470 range. They are a bit underpowered for the size and can be sailed hiking only up to about 12k. So learn to sail the 470 learn to drive and trap, learn how the spin works and then you can upgrade to the 505. 

As far as quality all 470s are Poly and get soft in <5 years. Some older 505s are also polyester and will get soft. Later hulls are cored epoxy and retain the stiffness. 

There is a large 505 fleet in the Bay area. Even if you don't want to race, they will have advice, parts and used sails available. 470 is not as popular in the US anymore so all that is much harder to come by. 

I sailed the 470 till I got too large. I currently have a 505 and love it. 

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505 all the way.  Wife as skipper.  The boat has such a range of adjustment that it can handle a very wide range of combined weight.

Put 5:1 on the mainsheet with the ratchet block on the boom for more wrap and holding, rig for crew hoist and douse of the spinnaker.

I have sailed competitively with 75 year old and 13 year old male skippers, 16 year old and 23 year old female skippers and most others in between.

More fun on your own, more options to sail with others, more support to get set up and learn.

Two Times Australian Champion Junior Female crew.

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For "which boat" type questions I always say get whichever has a local fleet that's better for you.  Better meaning proximity, activity, and people.  You will learn more if you have other people around, who sail regularly, and are nice people to learn from, than if you try and figure it out for yourself!

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Sometimes the 505 is a lot to take in for a beginner. Yes you can rig them simple, but he has the boat and its rigged the way its is (Unknown) So all the above applies. 

BUT 

The 470 has fewer controls and is more forgiving to beginners, plus most of the skills will transfer to the 505 when they get bored with the slow (LOL) Except of course the end-for end jibing if they even use the spin. 

For a learning the 470 has more feed back from the foils, slower loss of helm, pump spin launch and small spin to help learn how it all works. 

If they jump into the 505 now at their weight, they will be swimming a lot unless they learn how to depower which is more complex on a 505 but also more critical at that weight. 

They will need rake controls that work, RAM and understanding of use, powerful vang etc. 470 can live without all those because it is generally underpowered. It will allow them to try different wind strengths and get the feel for how it all works, wire to wire tacks etc. Sailing the 505 will be much easier learning on the 470.

Now if they were 500lbs total 505 would be the first stop especially with all the boats and knowledge in the bay area. 

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Reaching in 8-12kts back & forth on the lake should be no problem in either boat, with either person steering or crewing.  For the gybes, I'd want the automatic spin poles on the 505.  This video shows how it works...

 

 

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To put this in perspective I began racing the 505 in my early 20s with a 12 year old skipper. It was my first trapeze boat. We swam but loved it. Be not afraid of swimming.

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On a two-mile lake at 14 knots, would that mean gybing about every five minutes? 

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5 hours ago, Dense505crew said:

Compilation of 505 gybes in different weather.  Including a swim at about 6:20.  Check out that recovery though!

 

The way he goes down into the boat, and drops the hiking stick, IMHO is not so good. Surprised they didn't swim on more of those.

FB- Doug

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I don't know the sail number and the boat is about an hour away.  The seller has also a Parker with the wooden deck.  It is more--a little over $1000.  The Parker would need the deck replaced, which I don't mind, but at least cosmetically the Parker is not in as good condition.  I won't be able to sail either boat before buying.  I got under the hulls of each and do not see spider cracks or anything alarming around the centerboard, either in or out.  Apples to apples, are the Parkers preferred?  The one thing about the Parker is the sail is cleaner, but I would not say necessarily newer.  Both mains look to be crispy, used of course, but not blown out.  THe Rondar sail is grungy, which might clean up.  Or it might not.  The Rondar is alittle over $500. 

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I've owned both and have been in the 505 class for the past 12 years.

505-Much more expensive, much better built, more tunable and can handle a wider range of crew weights.  With double poles I've had several people out in 15kts. who had never been on ANY sailboat and flown the spinnaker without a problem.  I find the boat more difficult to capsize going to windward than the 470. On  a reach or downwind it's easy to go swimming without practice.

470- Poorly built, simpler, capsizes easily going to windward in gusty conditions. It has a very low boom compared to the 505.  I could sail single handed in 20kts. with a long tiller extension so I could get on the wire although I swam alot. Much easier to right from a capsize and it comes up dry.  The 505 is reasonably dry after a recovery but has about 4" of water in it. 

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I think I am committed to the 505 purchase, especially because the guy is going to throw in for free a NOS Hobie 12 that has never been used.  I mean it is brand new.  He doesn't have a mast and sail for it.  He has the other components.  The issue is, kind of run down Parker with better looking sails, or nicer looking but older Rondar with sails that might not clean up too well?  

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When I talked about the build quality of the 505 I wasn't thinking of the early fiberglass boats.  For a well built boat you need one with cored construction.  I think the first well built boats were Lyndsay's but I'm not sure.

In my experience a real bargain boat costs more in the long run than a reasonably priced good boat. https://usa505.org/advert/1978-lindsay-tuttle-6821-san-diego-ca/

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Totally agree about the bones of a used boat.  But there is another motivation for this purchase beyond the 505 and its intrinsic value.  I need the mast to replace a similar mast after my wife had a little oops event.  $$.   I am going to spend $500ish anyway so why not get a new HOlder 12 and a 505 to play around with...because I don't already have 6 boats in my yard inviting a lawsuit from my neighbors.  If the hull is a throw away then I at least have the other boat back on the road. 

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Under $1000 for a 505 that is complete and sails is a good deal even if old. 500 bucks is free. If with a trailer he is giving you more even.

Parker vs Rondar in 1970s: Rondar used thin core in the hull sides and deck. They had a short trunk and thinner board. Parker has the long trunk and thicker board. The latter is much easier to retrofit or find replacements for.

Devil is in the details. Parkers were good boats back in the day. The only one I liked even better was the old Fairey marine hulls with wood deck and outfit build in the US in New Jersey. Talking 1960s so ancient history boats.
 

Double poles? Both boats? Are the rigs already setup for large spinnaker?

Mast is really important. Shitty or bent mast is automatically no. Get a straight mast. Which section? Old boats some had IYE and they were very stiff. Others Proctor d which was pretty standard.

Sail numbers: 4000s is early 70s. 7000 is 1980. 2500 is mid 1960s.

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Concur.  $500 is free.  The Holder 12 and the mast are worth $500 even with a junky trailer.  The mast is the most critical component of this sale to me, followed by condition of the mainsail.  Everything else is kind of a gimme or I have an assortment of odds and ends that will keep the boat on the water. I am not trying to buy a $500 competitive boat.  I am trying to replace my injured existing mast, and son of a bitch, I happened across a pair of 505s and a new Holder 12 that needs a mast and sail.  I already have 3 or 4 sails laying around that fit that boat, and I can either get a mast or throw together a quick birdsmouth mast and rig it Carolina mutton leg.  I just got a letter a bit ago offering me the Parker, the Rondar, and the Holder for $1500.  But my wife, who happened to have kinked the mast I am replacing, had  a fender bender in my Tundra yesterday morning and now I am a couple of thousand out of pocket to keep it off of my insurance.  My truck has a dent and a scrape, but as the saying goes, you ought to see the other guy.  

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5 hours ago, Coquina012 said:

Concur.  $500 is free.  The Holder 12 and the mast are worth $500 even with a junky trailer.  The mast is the most critical component of this sale to me, followed by condition of the mainsail.  Everything else is kind of a gimme or I have an assortment of odds and ends that will keep the boat on the water. I am not trying to buy a $500 competitive boat.  I am trying to replace my injured existing mast, and son of a bitch, I happened across a pair of 505s and a new Holder 12 that needs a mast and sail.  I already have 3 or 4 sails laying around that fit that boat, and I can either get a mast or throw together a quick birdsmouth mast and rig it Carolina mutton leg.  I just got a letter a bit ago offering me the Parker, the Rondar, and the Holder for $1500.  But my wife, who happened to have kinked the mast I am replacing, had  a fender bender in my Tundra yesterday morning and now I am a couple of thousand out of pocket to keep it off of my insurance.  My truck has a dent and a scrape, but as the saying goes, you ought to see the other guy.  

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Wow. Even has a modern trailer and Dolly. That's worth more than the boat all by itself!

Also center mainsheet has come back in style so you're all set there too. Haha.

I'm sorry to hear your wife got an accident hopefully she's fine. I would just leave the dent in the truck and get the boat as long as that's the case.

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Yes.  She is not injured YET, dent in truck is annoying but the real money is paying to have the other car fixed to keep it off my insurance.  It's the old saying, You should have seen the other guy.  Otherwise I probably would have bought both boats. 

 

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2 hours ago, Coquina012 said:

Yes.  She is not injured YET, dent in truck is annoying but the real money is paying to have the other car fixed to keep it off my insurance.  It's the old saying, You should have seen the other guy.  Otherwise I probably would have bought both boats. 

 

Why keep off insurance? That's expensive. That's what you pay for insurance for...?

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I don't want my monthly to go up.  It is my wife's maybe fourth accident in two years.  If they (the injured car) offer to settle with me for a thousand bucks, I will pay it and move on.  Above that, and I will tell them to tender to their insurance company, who will then hit my insurance company.  It was completely my wife's fault.  

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If it's her fourth accident in two years, aren't you already paying for this one? (Insurance companies like to look ahead, to make sure their numbers are always positive.) 

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11 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Wow. Even has a modern trailer and Dolly. That's worth more than the boat all by itself!

Also center mainsheet has come back in style so you're all set there too. Haha.

I'm sorry to hear your wife got an accident hopefully she's fine. I would just leave the dent in the truck and get the boat as long as that's the case.

If it comes with that trailer, the 505 is less than free.

The Rondar has been the better build than the Parker for a long time, but we dont know your hull number (the seller should be able to read it off the transom for you )

505 is like owning a Ferrari or a McLaren. For many it is the ultimate cult racing dinghy.  Even an old 505 is considered kinda cool. People restore vintage 505s. An old 470 is generally just considered an old piece of plastic. Nobody restores old 470s.

I agree with everything that is said about 470 requiring less weight and being easier to figure out but an old 505 parked in the front yard is way cooler than an old 470.  That, and in 10 knots, an afternoon spent sailing around and figuring out what all the lines do to your sail shape etc is a fun a way as spending an afternoon as any other.

If your wife sails like she drives, then she will love the 505 :)

 

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Yes, she sails like she drives.  Kind of points and shoots.  USUALLY works out.  Sometimes, not so good. I have a Prius sitting in the driveway that she drives and the whole front end is zip tied.  After I spent $1500 replacing bumper parts once I put it on myself the second time with a drill and zip ties.  It is startling when they degrade and beging to pop.  Little by little the bumper parts starts to vibrate.  I paid for laser surgery, taking a great risk that improving her eyesight might not be in my best interest marriage wise,  but it didn't seem to help her driving.  

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OK now I am just telling jokes at her expense, which is one of my pasttimes.  The funniest sailing accident she has had was once sailing in to a dock on a CLC skerry.  She was running downwind in maybe a 10 mph wind, and I observed that she was not going to overrun and tack up.  A portly individual and his wife, with a cooler and a great tackle box, were camped out on the end of the dock with some lawn chairs, right in front of the No Fishing sign, beers in hand.  Skerrys will not plane, but they are a nice plywood take on a Norwegian double ender, and they will get out of their own way.  She ran the boat right up on the dock, broke the dagger board and sent their things flying.  It was your classic applecart fruit stand crash in an old movie.  Here is a photo of her rowing her mother around.  My mother-in-law insisted on bringing our daughter, which I later surmised was to prevent me from drilling a hole in the boat.

10436680_10203281932361574_2043935124529185416_n.jpg

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1 hour ago, Coquina012 said:

OK now I am just telling jokes at her expense, which is one of my pasttimes.  The funniest sailing accident she has had was once sailing in to a dock on a CLC skerry.  She was running downwind in maybe a 10 mph wind, and I observed that she was not going to overrun and tack up.  A portly individual and his wife, with a cooler and a great tackle box, were camped out on the end of the dock with some lawn chairs, right in front of the No Fishing sign, beers in hand.  Skerrys will not plane, but they are a nice plywood take on a Norwegian double ender, and they will get out of their own way.  She ran the boat right up on the dock, broke the dagger board and sent their things flying.  It was your classic applecart fruit stand crash in an old movie.  Here is a photo of her rowing her mother around.  My mother-in-law insisted on bringing our daughter, which I later surmised was to prevent me from drilling a hole in the boat.

10436680_10203281932361574_2043935124529185416_n.jpg

That is a beautiful boat! Mom-in-law does not look happy though

FB- Doug

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OK 9 boats. You can handle any and all of this easily. Get the cheapest option with the best value (the rondar with the trailer and dolly) and have at it. We'll work on introducing you to 505 racing (as opposed to cruising) later on. There's plenty of time.

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That does not look like a CLC.  What is it?

 

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Herreshoff Coquina.  Fastyacht, we are fools, but not beginners.  The only thing new to us here is the trapeze.    Building: I have a tenth build sitting in the garage for a year that I just can't get to.  It is so close to done that I launched it with an electric motor.  19 ft. deadrise crab skiff, all rack of eye, no plans.  I started building guitars and then, well, you know.  See below for  CLC, pilot is a terror on the seas and our nation's highways.  You can tell by the look in her eye she is about to tear the bumper off a Prius:

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So I went back to the Rondar.  Pretty good shape.  Forgot to get hull number.  Looks like some soft spots around the bailers.  Someone has either put duct tape on there, or some kind of adhesive backed cloth.  But I found no fractures.  I got under the hull, while on the trailer.  I am satisfied that it has no real hidden time bombs.  Mast looks great, very lightweight, a bit scratched up but true and straight--well, there is some prebend, but nothing except the way it is supposed to be.  I am not willing to buy the Parker, especially because I get my choice of the sails.  

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I picked this up from Colorado, Ballenger hull 7199, for 187.25 with two sets of sails, one new set from hull 7283. It's gunna be epic when all redone.

505 7199.jpg

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And I tracked down the original owner, he said it was the best 50 he ever had, sat in a garage for 18 years not used! 

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22 hours ago, ortegakid said:

I picked this up from Colorado, Ballenger hull 7199, for 187.25 with two sets of sails, one new set from hull 7283. It's gunna be epic when all redone.

505 7199.jpg

 

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ortegakid-that is definitely NOT 7199.  I had if right from Mark Lindsay's shop, it was the 40th and last production Lindsay made.  I won the midwinters with it after we finished rigging the boat the morning of the first race in 1981.  It was white, wood tanks and deck, and a bag boat.   Some years later I saw an article where someone added a side tube launcher.   I would check further, either hull number on boat, or measurement certificate for correct boat number.  Hope this helps!!  

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SO CORRECT, IT HAS NO HULL #

Built in 1980 by Buzz Ballenger, original owner Jason Spiller, originally named "Cantankerous Canary"

7155!

Aaron Ross was the last owner

the new set of sails is 7199, has nationals stamps on them, perfect shape.

 

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I hvaen't seen the mast stepped.  ONly laying on the ground.  It looks correct.  

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