Caca Cabeza

Volvo Diesel parts less than marine prices?

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Here is my thinking...

Boat has a Volvo MD22a 80Hp turbo marine diesel. It seems like this *must* be a marinized version of some other Volvo 80Hp turbo diesel. It seems like many (most) parts aren't marinized, oil pump, injectors, fuel lines, etc... 

Who knows what the land base version of this engine is?

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1 hour ago, Caca Cabeza said:

Who knows what the land base version of this engine is?

It is a rebadged Perkins Prima M80T that started life in 1980's in Rover/Austin Montego, Maestro, and Leyland Sherpa van. You will find big difference between pricing on same part between Perkins and Volvo. There is a M50 and M60 HP non turbo models with some identical bits. Lightweight saw it as a popular sailboat deisel for that era. If looked after it will give good service despite reports to the contrary.

Volvo did make some small modifications such as raw water pump drive etc otherwise identical to Perkins marinised version. Perkins workshop manual for terrestrial and marine the same. Haynes Manual for vehicle handy.

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That is what I like about this place! There is a lot of phuckery, but also a lot of good oil. Thanks, mate! A set of 4 for less than the "boat price" for one.

 

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We have a Volvo MD 2030D 3 cylinder in our boat.  I was surprised the first time I had a look around the engine to see that it had a Perkins plaque on it.  I did some research and discovered that this engine was originally designed and manufactured by Ishikawajima Shibaura in Japan and this engine is used in equipment by probably a dozen or so companies.  About 9 or 10 years ago we had a lightning strike on our dock which “blew out” the glow plugs.  I replaced them with glow plugs for a Mercedes auto diesel for a whole lot less than Volvo glow plugs.

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3 hours ago, J28 said:

We have a Volvo MD 2030D 3 cylinder in our boat.  I was surprised the first time I had a look around the engine to see that it had a Perkins plaque on it.  I did some research and discovered that this engine was originally designed and manufactured by Ishikawajima Shibaura in Japan and this engine is used in equipment by probably a dozen or so companies. 

Diesel engine and equipment manufacturers are probably the most incestious business I can think of. Tractor company's aquire engine company's, engine company's hand over their stuff to other engine company's either selling it outright or for rebadging and on it goes. Ishikawajima Shibaura started business in early 60's. Your engine started life in a small Japanese tractor for planting lettuce when around 30 years ago Perkins starting importing in built form from Ishikawajiima the 100 series. The marinised 100 series in 2, 3 and 4 cylinder small form are the Perkins "Perama" M20, M25, M30, M35 and MC42. @Caca Cabeza engine is the four cylinder OHC "Prima" series and completely different but confusing. I think someone at Perkins only job was to come up with engine series names starting with the letter "P", had to have an "r" and end in "a".

Perkins sold so many of these 100 series engines to other manufacturers I can't list them. One I can was the M30 the marinised version of the 103-10 to Volvo who called it the MD2030, your engine. So good were Perkins at selling Ishikawajiima engines they started a joint venture around 20 years ago and Perkins began assembling the engines in the UK from parts shipped from Japan and around 10 years ago starting building them together in a JV factory in China. Catapiller who now own Perkins also assemble a line of  Ishikawajima engines in the US.

Your engine is probably one of the most popular small diesel engines in the world with a list of badges you can't trip over and used in everything turf equipment to compressors, pumps, welders etc etc. Backwards searching oil filter numbers to engine manufacture and model can be very revealing.

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4 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

That is what I like about this place! There is a lot of phuckery, but also a lot of good oil. Thanks, mate! A set of 4 for less than the "boat price" for one.

 

Pleasure. I forgot to mention that any OEM part you find difficult to procure or it requires trading a kidney for there is a fair bet someone remanufactures it. It makes me laugh sometime when people start extolling the virtues of their engine brand over another when the one they have comes from the same stable as the one they are putting shit on.

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My Volvo D2-75 is a 4 cylinder Shibaura, very popular in front end loaders, ag equipment, etc. A replacement turbo from Volvo is $3K, but a new IHI turbo for a New Holland front loader is $300. IHI is Shibauru. However it is impossible to determine the exact housing and wheel trim used in the Volvo. Got it rebuilt for about $600. The 6KW Northern Lights/Lugger genset on the powerboat has a 3 cylinder Shibaura. It isn't until you get into the big diesels than the name on the label is likely to be the actual manufacturer. 

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2 hours ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

Is there an equivalent for D2-55C?

Same as @DDW a Shibaura built engine that is marinised by Volvo.

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The D2-55 and D2-75 are exactly the same engine, but for the turbo charger. When my turbo stopped turning, I contemplated turning the engine into a D2-55 since we never use the extra power. After a great deal of research by myself, the Volvo distributor, and some very knowledgable snow plow mechanics in Minnesota, I determined that the only differences between them were the exhaust elbow and turbo charger itself, and the setting of the fuel rack stop screw. Every other part in the engine is identical. 

By the way, if you should need a replacement for the cast iron exhaust elbow in the D2-55 or D2-75 (and eventually you will), HDI Marine sells one that is investment cast from 316 SS, at about 1/2 or 1/3 the cost of the Volvo replacement. They make them for a number of Volvo and other marine engines, including the NL genset. On the latter, I know some dealers up in the PNW that remove the genset elbow before delivery and replace it with the HDI, because the OEM is so short lived. 

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It is my guess that before not too long the source manufacturer of diesel auxillary engines for sailboats will become even more concentrated than it is now.

While the diesel combustion engine remains a very cost-efficient solution for mechanical energy, environmental legislation is pushing vehicles towards electrification either alone or in hybrid form. Traditional diesel powered vehicle manufacturers are already producing less diesel powered models and starting to collapse their engine building capability if they have one, starting with ceasing investment in advancing combustion efficiency any further. After seeing what happened to VW they certainly won't be looking at the option of cooking the emissions book.

While diesel will remain application-based such as vessels, long-haul trucks etc, many traditional engine providers to the small equipment end including sail boats will not be interested in the low reward from having to offer support incl carrying inventory etc, and therefore leave the space.

My guess is the (Perkins Catapiller)/Shibaura relationship that started 30 years ago will probably grow to be the dominant provider of small terrestrial and marinised diesels. The rest of the space taken up by one or two specialist providers who can compete where price is ignored and or they offer up a complete package including say the means of propulsion. The hybrid arena might be one such opportunity there.

What ever occurs it has to be remembered the sailboat auxiliary market is relatively minute and like all small markets often relies on larger markets to produce a technical solution.

There are countless examples in history. Land Rover wanting a powerfull light weight engine for their Range Rover project in the 60's found it of all places sitting in American speedboats with a Mercury Marine sticker on it and Mercury wanted concentrate on a  contraption called the "outboard" engine. It was a alloy V8 that started life in the 1960 Buick 215 then Pontiac Fireball before amoungst other things the powerfull steel unions killed it off 3 years later and Mercury picked it up. It was used for another 40 years before getting pensioned off by Landrover. That is the best circular terestrial/marine/terrestrial use of a single engine design I can think off.

When larger production sailboats exceeding 50' started to become more common 30 years ago, Perkins simply took their light and powerfull Prima Series vehicle engine (coincidently in Rovers) and marinised it, the first overhead camshaft diesel offering to the sailboat market. It was also one Volvo couldn't refuse latching onto until they came up with a replacement in the early 2000's.

It is reasonable to expect hybrid or even sans diesel solutions to enter the sailboat market as technology improves. However one thing never factored in by the early adopter fanboys is unlike other technologies the humble diesel has a very long lifespan, sometimes exceeding that of the boat they are sitting in. 

My guess therefore is diesel threads like this will be around for many decades to come with some folk here now chiming in via WiFi in the dementia ward to recant the glory days and tell youngsters where to find parts.

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Keep in mind that there are no small diesels made for the auxiliary power sailboat market. They all come from and are designed for industrial or agricultural uses, and adapted to marine as a secondary market. A very few have historically come from cars but not recently. Legislation may force them out of that market in the 1st world, but just like 2 stoke outboards, they will continue to have a long life post that legislation. Hybrids offer no efficiency or emissions advantage in an auxiliary sailboat, and there will need to be several breakthroughs in battery technology before pure electric has even a chance of gaining a foothold. 

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Then, any clue for VP D1-30 to get reasonable priced spares as of an equivalent brand type? Thanks

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Any idea where Yanmars started life, I was led to believe that they are marine diesels, but Im a sucker for good marketing.

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4 hours ago, DDW said:

Keep in mind that there are no small diesels made for the auxiliary power sailboat market.

I do tend to ramble a bit and pick up shit like a 3 year old motor only used in speedboats in early 60's ending up in a transaction between a US car builder (GM) who abandoned it and a British car builder (Rover) who kept it going for 40 years to make my point about history being a good guide.

DDW you are therefore excused for missing this sentence where I said as follows.

4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

What ever occurs it has to be remembered the sailboat auxiliary market is relatively minute and like all small markets often relies on larger markets to produce a technical solution.

You then said;

4 hours ago, DDW said:

A very few have historically come from cars but not recently.

There is more than a few as I have already outlined upthread, the genisus being production sailboats getting bigger 30 years ago and requiring a lightweight engine with HP/Torque that both traditional large diesel offerings and smaller multi purpose smaller industrial engines couldn't deliver at that point in time. In fact arguably the market leader Volvo today who didnt invent the first Saildrive (that was OMC Evinrude a Outboard manufacturer 40 years ago) but first to commercialise the application in response to the explosion in light Multi's, then had to rely upon a vehicle engine and one used by a competing vehicle maker to drive their larger saildrives in heavier/larger Mono's up until the early 2000's.

The fact that they split the company in two between Volvo Trucks/Industrial/Marine and Volvo Cars after this occured and well before, first with BMW, then Ford and now the Chinese is a quite seperate commercial historical event. However if not for that, today they could well be doing the lot.

As for "recently" you are quite right, there is little or no connection technically between diesel powered cars and marine diesel applications anymore, other than the emission regulatory environment and that varies between application and country to country.

However the trust of this thread is about parts availability and pricing of legacy motors. If it wasn't for say Volvo splitting up 20 years ago, then your set of Volvo marine diesel injectors would be sitting beside that of a Volvo diesel SUV in your Volvo neighbourhood warehouse and priced on par I suspect.

Those days are long gone and again the thrust of my post being the opening paragraph which you omitted to address being;

4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

It is my guess that before not too long the source manufacturer of diesel auxillary engines for sailboats will become even more concentrated than it is now.

In that regard I said this;

4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

My guess is the (Perkins Catapiller)/Shibaura relationship that started 30 years ago will probably grow to be the dominant provider of small terrestrial and marinised diesels. The rest of the space taken up by one or two specialist providers who can compete where price is ignored and or they offer up a complete package including say the means of propulsion. The hybrid arena might be one such opportunity there.

Putting aside any that also do generators etc there are many smaller diesel marine engine manufacturers today outside the more common names such as Yanmah and Volvo.

Many outside Europe don't even know they exist. For instance the French Nanni and Baudouin, the British Barrus Shire Series, the Dutch Vetus M Series and Denmark's BUKH etc  to name just a few. Many have over a century of history, their engine design, manufacture and sources of say IP accordingly is a maze and many collaborate with and have relationships with others incl large industrial entities like say the Korean Co monster Hyundai. If you or anyone can be bothered drill down each of those marine diesel manufactures listed above. It is quite interesting as I said upthread as follows;

On 11/11/2018 at 1:23 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Diesel engine and equipment manufacturers are probably the most incestious business I can think of. 

My point is despite all that unless they adapt and adapt quickly as I have outlined in my post that you have replied to, some of those names above will not exist shortly.

That brings me to your penultimate sentance as follows;

4 hours ago, DDW said:

Legislation may force them out of that market in the 1st world, but just like 2 stoke outboards, they will continue to have a long life post that legislation. 

You state the 1st world can rely on the 3rd world for say having access to prohibitive engine technology. You use the banning of two stroke outboards as an example.

The Japanese Tohatsu 2 stroke is the weapon of choice for fisherman in Asia. Tohatsu sell trillions of them every year. That will remain so for decades is my guess. However I have examined the regulations in most 1st world countries about this subject. The common denominator appears to be other than some short term grandfathering provisions, around this time next year if one is stocking and selling Tohatso 2 stroke parts the max penalty is you go to jail and discover the sport of buggery. DDW I very much doubt in your country if is 1st world it is any different.

Now DDW to avoid you thinking I'm humping your leg looking for a fight, you close with your sentance as follows.

4 hours ago, DDW said:

Hybrids offer no efficiency or emissions advantage in an auxiliary sailboat, and there will need to be several breakthroughs in battery technology before pure electric has even a chance of gaining a foothold

DDW could not agree more with you and where that ud one of my many expertises being creating and storing energy on sailboats, racing or cruising. 

Hence my close with regard to this thread, extolling the virtues of diesel stored energy, but not hijacking it with an alternative energy debate, only one of diesel manufacturers having to adopt to survive and sone tips for those that have an old one sitting in their engine room.

4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

My guess therefore is diesel threads like this will be around for many decades to come with some folk here now chiming in via WiFi in the dementia ward to recant the glory days and tell youngsters where to find parts.

I would keep typing but the bastards just cut off WiFi to my ward.

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1 hour ago, toad said:

Any idea where Yanmars started life, I was led to believe that they are marine diesels, but Im a sucker for good marketing.

Selling a small tractor powered appliance to plant lettuce around a hundred years ago or 50 years before someone like fellow Japanese Co and major player Shibaura. Yanmah diversified after working out how to cool the same lettuce planter with seawater so no one had to row the the boat anymore to catch fish.

Up to around the 60's all the Japanese could do was fish and farm lettuce. Then some crazy American invented the Semiconductor and they have not looked back since.

Looking at current fishing stats, my guess is the small marine diesel future rests with the Chinese. That is sort of underpinned by the (Perkins Catapiller)/Shibaura joint venture factory in China currently pumping out more small frame diesel engines than anyone.

After all the fish have been hoovered up by the Chinese, I don't have an answer.

268827178_images(4).png.67efbd73d825390e1efb80849baeb64c.png

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32 minutes ago, toad said:

nice, now its sea lettuce

Mate that is just plain fucking silly. Sea Lettuce is now farmed using hydroponics...has nothing to do with marine diesels anymore. Catch up :-)

LS_071117_SHR_lettuce04-L.jpg

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Wow, insomnia there Jack?

I am aware of many smaller diesel vendors such as Nanni, Bukh, Westerbeke, Vetus, etc. As nearly as I can tell, they are all simply marinizing diesels otherwise produced for industrial purposes. 

Here in the US, if you want a 2 stoke outboard it is as simple as going to Mexico or the Caribbean and buying one. I bought my Yamaha 2-stroke prior to the nationwide band, and only had to drive to Nevada and smuggle across the border into California. For course for the many, that is not a realistic option, but for true cruisers, it is. I'd be interested to know the 2-stoke vs. 4-stroke worldwide production figures - too lazy to look them up - but it would not surprise me at all if 2-strokes are still dominant. They have too many advantages to abandon.

Though electric is not yet practical as an auxiliary, I am very likely going to buy an electric outboard as propulsion for the dinghy on my trawler. The usage profile works in that case, and this is only recently practical. Things do change with time. Perhaps a breakthrough in fuel cell tech will be the thing that makes electric aux power viable.  Battery technology has been static for over a decade now. 

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Thanks for the depth of knowledge JS. I figured that most, if not all marine engines would come from somewhere else, likely AG, but I seem to remember a boat with a Watermota engine came from a VW diesel rabbit of some such.

I like the idea of reverse searching oil filters for common use, but I wonder how accurate that might be. Any ideas?

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The VW Golf 4 cyl gas motor got modded to diesel and then later marinized to become the Pathfinder. I think the block was built by Audi as it had the four interlinked circles cast right into the block. I think the marine heat exchanger was made by Bowman on mine. I wanted to do a valve job while I had the motor out of my Passport 40 while down in the Virgin Islands. Pathfinder was in Canada at the time and the parts prices were fairly reasonable but then I discovered that I could buy a whole head with new valves for less that the valve kit!  I rebuilt the Westerbeke genset using Kubota parts bought directly from a golf course lawn mower shop in Ohio for a fraction of what the Westerbeke dealer in St Thomas wanted for parts and gaskets. The trick is cross referencing the parts and there is some sort of 'secret society' between the marine versions dealers and the tractor part suppliers. 

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2 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

I like the idea of reverse searching oil filters for common use, but I wonder how accurate that might be. Any ideas?

That was more a pre Internet approach. Much quicker now where someone somewhere has said something either with first hand experience or after reading a book say like this.

https://www.amazon.com/s?search-alias=stripbooks&field-isbn=0907742793

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My pathfinder has a Bowman exchanger as well.

Only issue is that damn little offset waterpump pulley. Probably need a machine shop to make one for me.

 

Waterpump itself was $35 or so from Partsplace. They actually had an old pulley which I bought, but it's fairly pitted. 

 

I'm a bit odd, but I find the maintenance and rebirth of this little engine quite fun.  Runs like a champ for the moment.  Only thing expensive is the injectors, but I can get a set for $500. I might do that since I'm assuming these are original, and would hate to have them fail coming back from Hawaii.

 

There's a guy advertising one for sale here local for $2250. I'm about to ask him to part out the marinized pieces like the heat exchanger, pulleys, etc. I offered him $500 for the whole thing, he didn't bite. Yet.

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Diesel engines seem to produce very interesting characters like the old guy who can recite every part number of a certain engine off by heart. I met a diesel mechanic who used to be in the army who said the most painful job was ensuring engines didn't smoke and particularly generator sets. Apparently on the front line a smoking diesel engine gives your position away.

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Ah yes! Watermota Pathfinder. A gas VW engine converted to diesel, then marinized. I think I am starting to get the hang of this. Well done boys.

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I’m trying to understand how you ‘convert’ a gasser to diesel. I can see... maybe... using the same block, but the crank, rods, pistons, heads and certainly the fuel delivery would have to be different??

btw once I found out my Volvo 2030s were Perkins/Shibaura/wtf, I found glow plugs at NAPA for $8; Volvo wanted $80. Google is your friend here, most definitely 

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2 hours ago, DDW said:

Yeah, for example the spark plugs from the gasser won't fit the diesel.

There is a workaround if you use metric diesel fuel.

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My dad loves diesels and for some reason bought a Chevy pick up in the 70's with a factory diesel converted from a gas V8. It produced little power, but lots of noise and smoke. It leaked oil badly but when he took in for repair he was told it could be fixed with a rebuild, and would then start leaking again. I suspect the original motor could not handle the compression of a diesel, and of course GM quality control at the time was pretty bad.

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6 minutes ago, steele said:

My dad loves diesels and for some reason bought a Chevy pick up in the 70's with a factory diesel converted from a gas V8. It produced little power, but lots of noise and smoke. It leaked oil badly but when he took in for repair he was told it could be fixed with a rebuild, and would then start leaking again. I suspect the original motor could not handle the compression of a diesel, and of course GM quality control at the time was pretty bad.

My former FiL had a Buick like that. Turned him into a lifelong Toyota customer.

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Yep, that was the last GM product for anyone in our family. It was not just the motor, interior and  exterior trim pieces would fall off when you shut the doors, nothing lined up right, and it drove like a waterbed on valium. 

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Yeah, everyone said that VW was breaking all the rules first with the gas to diesel conversion of the Golf motor and then even more so when they converted that to the marinized version. Pathfinder later offered the 5 cyl and even the 6 cyl version of those motors. I wanted the 5 cyl for my Passport but it would have been a squeeze in the already tight motor box under the dinette table.

Look here if interested

https://www.partsplaceinc.com/pathfinder-sailboat

Volkswagen Marine Pathfinder Engine

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Yeah, everyone said that VW was breaking all the rules first with the gas to diesel conversion of the Golf motor and then even more so when they converted that to the marinized version. Pathfinder later offered the 5 cyl and even the 6 cyl version of those motors. I wanted the 5 cyl for my Passport but it would have been a squeeze in the already tight motor box under the dinette table.

Look here if interested

https://www.partsplaceinc.com/pathfinder-sailboat

Volkswagen Marine Pathfinder Engine

Ok, see that pulley on the lower right? It’s the water pump pulley and if you look closely, there no idler. The pulley is actually 2 parts, and it uses shims to adjust length. Mine “broke” meaning the  center plate broke out of the pulley itself, which means no coolant recirculates. The guys at PartsPlace had an old one, I bought it and resurfaced, but would like a new one....

 

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3 hours ago, gewoon ik said:

VW diesels are known for their oilthurst.

never known the 5 and 6 cilinder models have the same roots of the 4 cilinder

Diesels love their oil like sailors love their rum.

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Ok, see that pulley on the lower right? It’s the water pump pulley and if you look closely, there no idler. The pulley is actually 2 parts, and it uses shims to adjust length. Mine “broke” meaning the  center plate broke out of the pulley itself, which means no coolant recirculates.

That's the same thing they did on the old air cooled VW's generator belt. It really sucked.

Apparently they were slow learners.

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52 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

 That's the same thing they did on the old air cooled VW's generator belt.

It really sucked.Apparently they were slow learners.

Using just a screwdriver you can change a VW belt in just a few seconds.

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My car is a 2014 Audi Q7 TDI (no worries, it's been "fixed").  It has a 3 liter turbocharged V6 diesel that puts out 428 ft/lbs. of torque at 2000 RPM.  Mercury sells a marinized version of the engine as a stern drive.  Since Audi is no longer importing any diesel models into the US because of the VW Diesel emission scandal (and perhaps future tighter emission standads on particulates in Europe) I question how much longer this engine, as well as the VW 4 cyl. Diesel will be available to Mercury.  BTW, if you own a boat with this engine and think you might be able to get cheap parts at a Audi (or VW) dealer, think again.  

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46 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Using just a screwdriver you can change a VW belt in just a few seconds.

You sure can't adjust the tension though.

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5 hours ago, J28 said:

My car is a 2014 Audi Q7 TDI (no worries, it's been "fixed").  It has a 3 liter turbocharged V6 diesel that puts out 428 ft/lbs. of torque at 2000 RPM.  Mercury sells a marinized version of the engine as a stern drive.  Since Audi is no longer importing any diesel models into the US because of the VW Diesel emission scandal (and perhaps future tighter emission standads on particulates in Europe) I question how much longer this engine, as well as the VW 4 cyl. Diesel will be available to Mercury.  BTW, if you own a boat with this engine and think you might be able to get cheap parts at a Audi (or VW) dealer, think again.  

I think you will find that the Mercruiser engines are VM from Italy not VAG engines. Also promoted and serviced by Cummins.

 

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2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

I think you will find that the Mercruiser engines are VM from Italy not VAG engines. Also promoted and serviced by Cummins.

 

I believe  you are correct, in that Mercury Diesel engines are now supplid by VM. I think the change to VM is very recent, like this year.  Previously they were supplied by VAG. 

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15 hours ago, J28 said:

My car is a 2014 Audi Q7 TDI (no worries, it's been "fixed").  It has a 3 liter turbocharged V6 diesel that puts out 428 ft/lbs. of torque at 2000 RPM.  Mercury sells a marinized version of the engine as a stern drive.  Since Audi is no longer importing any diesel models into the US because of the VW Diesel emission scandal (and perhaps future tighter emission standads on particulates in Europe) I question how much longer this engine, as well as the VW 4 cyl. Diesel will be available to Mercury.  BTW, if you own a boat with this engine and think you might be able to get cheap parts at a Audi (or VW) dealer, think again.  

cheap maintenance and VAG don't go hand in hand. But online you can find almost everything for those engines from the same companies who supply the parts to vag.

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