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Tyson0317

Pretty floor options?

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The bilge cover board on my J/35 broke this weekend, and then broke again... I don't want to talk about it. But I am now looking to have to cut a new plywood piece to fit, which will look terrible given that the rest of the floor has this striped wood look. Question: Can this type of plywood sheet be ordered from somewhere? Or is this veneer a custom thing that Jboats made? I've always wanted to learn how to do inlay...

I'll ensure to be sitting down before reading the replies.

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You can buy that veneer, glue it to a foam/glass panel. Looks good and lighter weight!

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Having done my J/35 sole 2 times I’ve picked up a few things. The cabin soles are notorious for failure.

Teak and holly plywood, what you have, is readily available from any hardwood dealer. Shipping is the killer. If you can source locally youll be way ahead. If there are any boatyards near you they may have sme in stock and be able to cut a new center section. You will never match the color you have but what of it?  Mine is currently a bit of a patchwork as I’ve graved in a couple of s cations that broke. One at a the bottom of the companionway and another just to the port side in front of stove, highly trafficked and wet areas.

One full sheet of T&H plywood will do the entire sole. It’s not a difficult job. Ive done mine twice, never again tho. You’ll have a heart attack when you see the prices of the wood tho.

My center section broke last year same as yours so I glued it back together with epoxy and under the broken section and every where it did not sit on the athwartship floors I glued on full thickness backing cleats. I put backing cleats almost everywhere I could reach that seemed to be in a high traffic area. Over the sections I glued together I just glued a strip of 1/8” x 1” over the joint to cover it. I varnished the whole thing, it looks ok from the cockpit but it’s temporary.

The 12mm plywood is just too light for the job and no matter what you buy it will fail. I took great pains the 2nd time I did mine figuring it would be fixed once and for all. I cut all pieces, fit them, and soaked thin epoxy (Sytem 3) into the end grain until it would take no more (6 or so costs). Top and bottom I squeegeed 4 coats on top, 6 on the bottom. After I installed and bunged it I put 6 coats of Epithanes. A ton of work. Looked gorgous. Lasted 6 years.

So now it’s patchwork time til I figure out how to really fix it. My current thought is G10 with fake teak covering. Way expensive tho. Any one have any good ideas on underpayment?

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Home builders Center on Nickerson has teak and Holly sheets and sometimes 1/2 sheets

 

Nice to see you striving for the "hour racing =hour boat work" goal

Curiously next door to online metals to pick up your new spin pole tube

 

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We've had to replace our floorboards because of delamination, but haven't had any crack or break.  What are you guys doing to them?  

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I'd use some epoxy sealed 1/2" ply and some epoxy sealed engineered flooring epoxied to it.

That uber-expensive teak & holly plywood is something less than resistant to delamination.

The pretty face of it is about 1 micron thick too.

 

 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

 

That uber-expensive teak & holly plywood is something less than resistant to delamination.

The pretty face of it is about 1 micron thick too.

 

That's why I epoxied the outsides before I varnished the replacements.

 

 

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Home builders center or the lumber yard on Alaskan way should have it.  Then lightly sand it with 180, epoxy BOTH sides and all edges.  It will come out just a bit rough.  If you want it really smooth, I sand it lightly to smooth it out and put down a 3 coats of varnish.  It also helps with UV protection for above deck projects.  I had a 3” deep bilge on the Peterson 37, so it was close to any water in the bilge, and after about 18 years now, it is still looking great, minus a few winch handle dents.

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14 hours ago, PaulK said:

We've had to replace our floorboards because of delamination, but haven't had any crack or break.  What are you guys doing to them?  

On a J/35?  They all go, I've seen 3 myself.  My theory?  Too thin wood in a moist environment. The wood deflects when anyone over 165lbs walks on it. I think in my case, my 2nd attempt with the epoxy sealing was full of micro cracks from the continuous flexing. At the base of the companionway is always moist in any kind of race in the rain. Pile wet sails and gear on the sole and there you go.

I have a full woodshop and the knowledge to build whatever I need so when I built the 2nd one it was made in a heated controlled shop to the best standards I could manage.  And it lasted 6 years. And I varnished it every year. Just too much flex.

Hence my desire to find solid affordable non-organic underlayment and cap it with plastic teak or something like that. I've looked at a number of options, all $$$, G10 or equivalent, Coosa, etc but haven't found one I can afford and I like. 

Any ideas?

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27 minutes ago, DrewR said:

On a J/35?  They all go, I've seen 3 myself.  My theory?  Too thin wood in a moist environment. The wood deflects when anyone over 165lbs walks on it. I think in my case, my 2nd attempt with the epoxy sealing was full of micro cracks from the continuous flexing. At the base of the companionway is always moist in any kind of race in the rain. Pile wet sails and gear on the sole and there you go.

I have a full woodshop and the knowledge to build whatever I need so when I built the 2nd one it was made in a heated controlled shop to the best standards I could manage.  And it lasted 6 years. And I varnished it every year. Just too much flex.

Hence my desire to find solid affordable non-organic underlayment and cap it with plastic teak or something like that. I've looked at a number of options, all $$$, G10 or equivalent, Coosa, etc but haven't found one I can afford and I like. 

Any ideas?

A thin glass coating like on strip plank kayaks will stiffen things. Hell, you could put a layer of carbon fabric on the underside, it would be in tension and do a nice job of stiffening. 

My floorboards are a foam panel, glassed, and covered in teak-holly veneer. From 1990. They need to be refinished but will go right back in.

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The plywood is available and used in other TPI built boats.  It's silly expensive so you might seek out a boatyard with half a sheet.  1/2" (12mm) is too thin for the span and in a wet location, but going to 3/4" adds other complications..  When I do mine, I think i'll put a light glass reinforcement to the back side.

 

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The plywood is widely available, that's not the issue.  The issue is I do not want to use wood any longer. 

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50 minutes ago, DrewR said:

The plywood is widely available, that's not the issue.  The issue is I do not want to use wood any longer. 

The problem is plywood that's not rot-resistant and is less stiff than solid wood.  1/2"  slats of a rot-resistant fine-grained wood like western red cedar, alaskan yellow cedar, garapa, etc. would work and would hold up.

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To the OP: 

Sanded 1/4" polycarbonate (lexan) could be used to make long and narrow bilge coverboard.  Glue 1/4" spacers under to bring flush to existing flooring.  A different look but flexible and should be reasonably long lasting with low maintenance.  Over the keel so weight should not be an issue.

DrewR has a different issue in replacing the entire ply flooring.  Nothing to add to the above for that.

P

 

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Get a sheet (or appropriate sized) of 1/4" Teak & Holly veneer.  Epoxy uniformly to 1/2" marine ply.  Lots of clamps etc to ensure uniform attachment.  Cut to size. 

Very easy and super strong.  Done it 3 times with different J/Boats (incl a J/35).  Epoxy the edges an all that good stuff.  It will outlast the boat (or certainly the time it spends in your possession).

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My similar boat uses solid teak boards for the bilge boards.  The rest of the floor seems to be a thin layer of teak and holly plywood laminated to marine plywood.

Below is a photo with the bilge boards out and half of the floor flipped up (and a very grimmy bilge)

I can take measurements if it is helpful Tyson, but I think they are 1/2" thick.

IMG_3057

 

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2 hours ago, Deed said:

Get a sheet (or appropriate sized) of 1/4" Teak & Holly veneer.  Epoxy uniformly to 1/2" marine ply.  Lots of clamps etc to ensure uniform attachment.  Cut to size. 

Very easy and super strong.  Done it 3 times with different J/Boats (incl a J/35).  Epoxy the edges an all that good stuff.  It will outlast the boat (or certainly the time it spends in your possession).

I can't go over 12mm.  The settees and a few other places limit the height to 12mm where the sole slips under.  You've done a J/35?  With a full wooden interior? 

I've had lousy luck on other projects lately with so called marine ply. It's anything but void free. I want to be done with organic materials when/if I redo mine. I'm happy so far with the backup cleats I've added and I think it may hold up for a while longer.

Again, anyone know of a cost effective underlayment for the sole? 

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7 hours ago, Raz'r said:

A thin glass coating like on strip plank kayaks will stiffen things. Hell, you could put a layer of carbon fabric on the underside, it would be in tension and do a nice job of stiffening. 

A little for free, no-thought engineering: if the problem is panel stiffness then adding fore and aft cleats to the underside of the board, the deeper the better, between the stringers is the quick 'n easy solution.

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1 hour ago, DrewR said:

I can't go over 12mm.  The settees and a few other places limit the height to 12mm where the sole slips under.  You've done a J/35?  With a full wooden interior? 

I've had lousy luck on other projects lately with so called marine ply. It's anything but void free. I want to be done with organic materials when/if I redo mine. I'm happy so far with the backup cleats I've added and I think it may hold up for a while longer.

Again, anyone know of a cost effective underlayment for the sole? 

Cheap, stiff, light

choose 2

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20 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Cheap, stiff, light

choose 2

Cheap & stiff.  Whaddya got?

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1 minute ago, DrewR said:

Cheap & stiff.  Whaddya got?

Glass over cheap ply. Polyester resin to save cash. Sealed, the ply would never see moisture. 

Or concrete over wire.... 3/4” might be too thin, maybe 1 1/2

 

but the veneer over glass/foam/glass panel wouldn’t set you back horribly. I know vinylester is probably as good as you need, but retail small lots, like a gallon, are and the same price between vinyl and epoxy

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All types of resin in quantity I have, epoxies and poly's.  I am just looking fro a solid underlayment that costs less than G10 for approx. 4' x 8'.  Coosa board looks good,

I hadn't thought of laminating my own. I may have some old airex lying around...

Concrete?  Never was any good with a trowel.

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We looked at a boat for sale that had ceramic tile on the floor. I would vote against that route.

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Why? you can get non-skid ceramic tile.

You can even get it to match your granite counter tops.

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Although still organic I have had good results building small boats with Okoume ply. It has been void free, soaks up epoxy well and looks good. Here is a source with 12mm, https://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/boat-building-supplies-epoxy-fiberglass-plywood/marine-plywood-cedar-strips/okoume-marine-plywood.html. For added strenght in stitch and glue boats it is covered in light cloth saturated in epoxy an ends up super strong.

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I have a good local source for hardwood and hardwood ply.  I made a baby cradle pram last winter out of Okoume ply actually. 

I'm still not going to use dead trees if I can help it.  But thx.

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I did my entire cabin sole with a 10*5' sheet of 3/8 or 1/2 " ( I can't remember)  teak/holly ply, with enough left over to build a battery box/bench under the companionway stairs. was careful to remove old pieces intact to use as templates for new. epoxied(west) the fuck out of the new pieces before they went in and it's as good as new after 5 years.  I think I got the sheet from Harbor Sales or Jamestown. can't remember the price. was able to align the inlay lines up on the battery box too.

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Coosa sealed and with glass reinforcement as needed; treat upper surface as you would your deck: Kiwigrip or hydroturf.  Done.

I've never done it (have used T/H ply), so no practical advice.

P

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On 11/16/2018 at 11:35 AM, DrewR said:

I have a good local source for hardwood and hardwood ply.  I made a baby cradle pram last winter out of Okoume ply actually. 

I'm still not going to use dead trees if I can help it.  But thx.

Problem isn't the dead tree bit, it's the not having any glass on the tension side.    Get a scrap bit of T&H ply 1/4".  Glass the back side with a mat/roving to start.  Throw whatever scrap offcuts of leftover glass you have lying around your scrap bin on at random, just keeping it halfass level.   then finish with one nice mat and squash it with a a scrap bit of melamine board to make it smoothish, Clean up the edge with a razor knife while green, or belt sander later.   Yes could be fancier, lighter, more nicely made but fuck it's a hatch over the keel.  Done in an hour, last forever, now the dead tree bit is decorative and you got rid of some scrap. 

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On ‎11‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 2:37 PM, DrewR said:

I can't go over 12mm.  The settees and a few other places limit the height to 12mm where the sole slips under.  You've done a J/35?  With a full wooden interior? 

I've had lousy luck on other projects lately with so called marine ply. It's anything but void free. I want to be done with organic materials when/if I redo mine. I'm happy so far with the backup cleats I've added and I think it may hold up for a while longer.

Again, anyone know of a cost effective underlayment for the sole? 

OK, got it. Then try T&H veneer over 1/4" marine ply, with lots of epoxy between to ensure great adhesion.  Still strong as heck and almost 1/2" in thick.  I think that's what I did on the J/35 (though I used 1/2" in ply on the J/24).  You need to be fussy with the grade of marine ply.  Look for grade A.  1/4" should not break the bank.  Alternatives are other hardwood ply, or even pressure treated ply.  

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I looked up Coosa board, the lightest density is 15lbs/cuft. 

At that density, fiberglass skins are required for stiffness.

Balsa core is 9 1/2 lbs, vinyl foam is 5 pounds.

Both would also require skins.

Plywood is 36lbs/cuft....

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I would be hesitant on the balsa idea due to rot. Inevitably the sole boards will see water migrating through to the core. These look to be fairly well supported panels (limited spans) wither the accept ion of the bilge board. If replacement of just the bilge board solves the issue, try http://www.boulterplywood.com/ for 1/2 & 1/4 sheets. If you want to go for a laminate I would look at foam core and glass, probably a layer or two of 1708 top and bottom with paint/skid to preference. Gucci for these goes to carbon and wood veneer. Regardless of what material level you decide on think about adding some uni fore/aft capped with a layer of woven on the backside of the bilge board. While the cost of the teak & holly sole is not small, it will be less than high quality custom composites. Maybe look at a thinner plywood with carbon uni on the bottom for the bilge board. Good luck.

 

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Boulter is where I bought my current failed sole. 

I just got a sample 1/4" and 3/8 phenolic sheet and it looks promising, albeit expensive. 

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Wood just doesn't make sense!  Have a look at this stuff or something like it. https://www.merrittsupply.com/product/nida-core-structural-honeycomb-plain-h8pp/

Easy to work with, VERY light, won't rot/delam.  You'll need to paint w/non skid or veneer with a non slip vinyl (best choice) and the cut edges need to be filled with something like flex tec or g-10.   Pretty is as pretty does.  It'll be the last floor you ever put in.  

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