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Dobroth MORC 30

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Last I heard, Brendan was now a "Born Again" Preacher, in upstate New York somewhere?  Can anyone confirm that?

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The boat should be better now than it was for the Canada's cup back in 1994. I'm pretty sure the keel was changed after the cup giving it better heavy air performance. I'm guessing all the measurement lead has also been removed from the boat. I would consider it if I was looking for a good club PHRF boat and had 6 good friends to sail with me weeknights.

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7 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Last I heard, Brendan was now a "Born Again" Preacher, in upstate New York somewhere?  Can anyone confirm that?

longest regatta of my life was with him and his brother together on the same boat....

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13 minutes ago, aA said:

longest regatta of my life was with him and his brother together on the same boat....

 

Never met his brother, but his sister was around Clearwater, when he and I were working on some IOR boats, prepping them for SORC.  Did the Pas a Grille race on the then new "Evergreen".

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Used to sail against that boat a lot. They always did ok, but the boat was never a world beater. I don't think it has been in the water in a few years. For a while, there were three of them in Niagara on the Lake. Fast Track, Flak, and Absolute (this one). I'm pretty sure Absolute was the fastest of the three.

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Absolute (Hans Fogh) lost to Championship Eagle (Larry Klein) in the 1994 Canada's Cup.  I later raced on Eagle for a couple of years on Lake St Clair.  In PHRF, we were rated with old IOR warhorses and it was difficult to beat them in waterline conditions.  We did ok on W/L courses in light-moderate conditions.  Given MORC, the boat was heavy and stopped picking up speed downwind after about 8kts of boat speed, just made bigger waves.  It was a fun boat to sail, but would not be my first pick given the choices out there today.  

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It would be a fun boat, I sailed against it long ago on a MORC  Andrews 30  , Flak was also an Andrews30 . For some reason the sails were expensive. That's top dollar for what it is, I think HayJay (ex Notorious) the Andrews30 may have sold for half that asking price.  You do need 6-7 guys.

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3 hours ago, JimBowie said:

We're all showing our age around these parts...

Oh yea!  Sailed on Mokuwahi ( I am sure I misspelled it)!!

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Mokuahi. The old Razzle Dazzle. Boat almost won the circuit in 1983. Did Admirals Cup trials on her. Brandans best was Coog. Then Walter Hansen bought it and named it Midnight Tiger. As long as it was under 18knts true that boat was very fast and we could beat the old High Roller and the old Sidewinder.

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3 minutes ago, jnye said:

Or perhaps https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/andrews-star-30-3164837/?refSource=standard listing? Don't know either boat - just looking at comps.

Very different designs so not a comp by any means.  The older Andrews design comes in around 120 PHRF (IIRC) while the Dobroth is closer to 90.  

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7 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Very different designs so not a comp by any means.  The older Andrews design comes in around 120 PHRF (IIRC) while the Dobroth is closer to 90.  

OK. Was thinking price, LOA and location. 

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7 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Very different designs so not a comp by any means.  The older Andrews design comes in around 120 PHRF (IIRC) while the Dobroth is closer to 90.  

Starwatch rates 126, it has an oversize spinnaker, so 132 stock.

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23 hours ago, jackolantern said:

That boat isn’t worth half what it’s listed for

Most sailboats on Yachtworld built before 2000 are overpriced.  Any way to find out what is actual sale price for these older boats?

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Looking at the pictures.... what the hell are those turning blocks on those pedestals for? I would guess for cross sheeting the jib sheets

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1 hour ago, nascar08 said:

Most sailboats on Yachtworld built before 2000 are overpriced.  Any way to find out what is actual sale price for these older boats?

Soldboats.com - brokers have access.

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1 hour ago, nascar08 said:

Most sailboats on Yachtworld built before 2000 are overpriced.  Any way to find out what is actual sale price for these older boats?

There is a subscription service. Soldboats.com. Part of Yachtworld.com. 

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Besides the local variations in PHRF, MORC went through several different iterations as to the type of boat favoured IIRC.  So you could expect variations in PHRF for a "typical" MORC-Maxi

The Andrews were on the heavy side.  but some of the mid 80's design were quite a bit lighter.  Case in point, the Davo 30 in the photo below displaced about 4500 lb.  She rated 74 in SoCal and is now 84 in PNW.  Mind you, she had her rig bumped some 2 ft since her post MORC days.  Wolfpack, the Donovan 30 mentioned above is even lighter - by quite a margin.

There was a competitive local MORC built boat that tipped the scales at 4500 lb as well that now rates 108 with an inboard, but would rate 102 in her MORC config.

And lets not forget the J/29, which in MHOB config typically rates around 111.

So, I would expect a last gen MORC-Maxi to rate at least in the 90s, maybe even 80s depending on location.

There was a really nice last gen N/M 30 that sold pretty quickly on SA a year or so ago - asking maybe $25k.  may have been Old School or maybe a sistership if there was one.

dwwdocked2-9d111d27-large.jpg

11051763_1512485499044768_7690189783685269819_o.jpg

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Star marine/Andrews 30 rated 96 in phrf on Lake Ontario, Flak and Notorious (HayJay) were Star 30s . There was some cabinetry but no real interior or V berth in either. I think only six were built. The original Dobroth keel off Absolute wound up on HayJay somehow. I think Absolute has a more 'normal' looking fin keel now.

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Dobroth showed up at a Block Island Race week one year, on one of those crazy big cruising motorcycles with the  giant windshield and  a cranking stereo. Bike was a very dorky tan/ brown  color.   He drove around the island for the week looking like a total nerd. nice guy but super dorky.

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On 11/15/2018 at 4:23 PM, crankcall said:

It would be a fun boat, I sailed against it long ago on a MORC  Andrews 30  , Flak was also an Andrews30 . For some reason the sails were expensive. That's top dollar for what it is, I think HayJay (ex Notorious) the Andrews30 may have sold for half that asking price.  You do need 6-7 guys.

HayJay was a piece crap that was cobbled together.....

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6 hours ago, ASP said:

Anyone remember what they were asking for Wolfpack when she was on the market?

35k right after Pac Cup 2014. 

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3 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I believe Music Man bought Details (original Andrews 30) that was advertised at $7k.  needed work obviously - but this was the end result IIRC.  Actually it is the poster boy for the Andrews 30 on Sailboatdata: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/andrews-30-mki

andrews_30_mki_photo.jpg

But... this 1982 boat  and the 88-92 generations Flak/GreenJeans/Freestyle/RiskyBusiness are light years apart. I have sailed all of them and this boat sailed like a old heavy tumble-holm 1982 IOR boat vs. what the class opened up rule wise by 88. Interesting thing was Coug the max length heavy Dobroth 42’ two ton destroyed the light air focused 40’ N/M S&S in the 84 Canada’s cup only to see those roles reversed with the Dobroth ultra light air focused 29’ destroyed by the heavy weight narrow max length N/M in 94....

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On 11/15/2018 at 1:12 PM, Retired BN said:

The boat should be better now than it was for the Canada's cup back in 1994. I'm pretty sure the keel was changed after the cup giving it better heavy air performance. I'm guessing all the measurement lead has also been removed from the boat. I would consider it if I was looking for a good club PHRF boat and had 6 good friends to sail with me weeknights.

Absolut's original configuration was super fast in ultra light conditions but struggled in heavy air (anything over about 8 knots!).  Didn't help that it was a MORC mini maxi at less than 29' length.  Interesting fact:  Absolut's upper hull shape was pre-defined so Wiggers could fit the deck from the owner's previous Andrews 30, a super frac abomination that replaced Flak but was as slow as they ever got...

 

On 11/15/2018 at 4:23 PM, crankcall said:

It would be a fun boat, I sailed against it long ago on a MORC  Andrews 30  , Flak was also an Andrews30 . For some reason the sails were expensive. That's top dollar for what it is, I think HayJay (ex Notorious) the Andrews30 may have sold for half that asking price.  You do need 6-7 guys.

There was nothing magical about MORC 30s or their rigs that caused sails to be expensive.  The programs used the best technology and materials available at the time so yes, compared to a typical 30' racer/cruiser they seemed pricey...

 

21 hours ago, Mike Hunt said:

The Star 30 was essentially a racer / cruiser version of the Andrews 30.  Lots's how hull volume, descent interior...

 

17 hours ago, crankcall said:

Star marine/Andrews 30 rated 96 in phrf on Lake Ontario, Flak and Notorious (HayJay) were Star 30s . There was some cabinetry but no real interior or V berth in either. I think only six were built. The original Dobroth keel off Absolute wound up on HayJay somehow. I think Absolute has a more 'normal' looking fin keel now.

Star Marine built 7-8 racer/cruiser versions, similar hull shape to MM's Details (the first Andrews 30 design), but all had conventional decks (full cockpit, standing headroom cabintops) and semi-custom interiors finished to the owner's specs.  The later Star 30 Turbo (two built) used the same basic hullshape but was lighter due to reduced freeboard, rejigged keel and ballast, racing deck design, and minimal interior.  I think there were only two built.

Lotsa keelectomies on the MORC 30s that were active in the mid 90s - most switched to designs by Henderson, but a few Killing, Dobroth, and Van Gorkam appendages too.  Some of the leftovers reappeared as hand-me-downs on the second string boats.

 

16 hours ago, USA 236 said:

HayJay was a piece crap that was cobbled together.....

HayJay (ex Notorious) was built by Wiggers, finished by NorthCastle.  Not a bad boat originally, but seriously undermaintained by subsequent ownership.

 

9 hours ago, daffy said:

Shit, get a Santana 30`30 for less than 10k and kick there ass's!

Hey daffy doofus, there's a 25 second PHRF spread between the 30-30GP and the late 80s early 90s iterations of the Andrews 30.  Won't be any asskicking taking place if the boats're sailed similarly...

 

Cheers!

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Given the high tech build and crazy hardware / hydraulics etc on these MORC maxis, and the relatively sucky boat speeds, I think these would all make great deck-donors for better boats.  Maybe even reuse the front third of the hulls, but rebuild the back half with less rocker and take half the weight out of them.  If I was looking to build a 30'ish racer on the cheap it seems like it would be a cool way to do it.

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I cant imagine doing a deck donor program, using part of a hull and building a one off 30ish racer would ever be ending on the cheap, unless labor was free, you had an 18ft tall shed and your uncle owned a resin factory.  Think I'd just go find an olson or something and call it a day

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That's kinda what I thought.  I've seen almost everything but haven't yet run across a race boat built on the cheap (Margaritaville 1 1/2 notwithstanding)

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51 minutes ago, some dude said:

That's kinda what I thought.  I've seen almost everything but haven't yet run across a race boat built on the cheap (Margaritaville 1 1/2 notwithstanding)

Kahoots, ex-It’s OK, ex-Impact

Medicine Man

 

Neither one was “Cheap”

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18 hours ago, silent bob said:

 

Kahoots, ex-It’s OK, ex-Impact

Medicine Man

 

Neither one was “Cheap”

exactly.  except Its OK/Kahoots and Impact were different boats.  The former was about 4 feet bigger and about 7 years later

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19 hours ago, some dude said:

That's kinda what I thought.  I've seen almost everything but haven't yet run across a race boat built on the cheap (Margaritaville 1 1/2 notwithstanding)

Depends on what you call cheap

Going back in history, it's how the best designers got their start. OTOH boats like GUMBOOTS weren't really all that cheap, their cost was distributed differently than the common case of "rich guy pays the bills to put racing yacht up to the start line."

FB- Doug

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Well, I was originally responding to the idea of using the deck and front 1/3 of an old MORC boat to start a "cheap" rebuild.   Cheap or not, you're going to end up with a 30' PHRF club racer, which can be fun, but the world is full of boats that will be great 30' PHRF club racers for sale for >$15K.   Performing major surgery on an old MORC boat is going to end up costing much much more than that (unless you're doing it all yourself in the side yard, in which case you're not going sailing any time soon).

 

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On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:41 PM, 12 metre said:

There was a really nice last gen N/M 30 that sold pretty quickly on SA a year or so ago - asking maybe $25k.  may have been Old School or maybe a sistership if there was one.

 

11051763_1512485499044768_7690189783685269819_o.jpg

Old School has been renamed to Izzy Mayhem and rates 95 in ECSA.  When she was purchased the rig was in 3 pieces but the rest of the boat was in good shape.

MusicMan bought Details, rebuilt it from the ground up and now races ECSA as well.  Rates 125.

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1 hour ago, numl0ck said:

Old School has been renamed to Izzy Mayhem and rates 95 in ECSA.  When she was purchased the rig was in 3 pieces but the rest of the boat was in good shape.

MusicMan bought Details, rebuilt it from the ground up and now races ECSA as well.  Rates 125.

Not that MusicMan needs the help - but any handicapping authority that gives a 30 sec spread between two such boats needs to give their collective heads a shake.

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7 hours ago, some dude said:

exactly.  except Its OK/Kahoots and Impact were different boats.  The former was about 4 feet bigger and about 7 years later

It's OK 2, Andrews 42 sold to Ron Melville(renamed Impact 2), then to Deaver(Renamed Kahoots), then to Razr.  Berry took the hardware of It's OK 1

It's OK 1 was Put back together by Ullman for his FIL.

Impact 1 was in Coronado, with Van Waay until he sold it a few years ago

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3 hours ago, silent bob said:

It's OK 2, Andrews 42 sold to Ron Melville(renamed Impact 2), then to Deaver(Renamed Kahoots), then to Razr.  Berry took the hardware of It's OK 1

It's OK 1 was Put back together by Ullman for his FIL.

Impact 1 was in Coronado, with Van Waay until he sold it a few years ago

Ah yes.  Impact 2.  Forgot that part

Its OK 1 was actually a Peterson/Islander 40, circa 1982/83 as long as we're dredging up ancient history.  Scavenger was Its OK 2

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A couple of key things about the It's OK, Margaritaville and Med Man projects.  Each owner was looking to upgrade and there had been a big handicap system change.  All had IOR boats (Med Man was IOR sled, a small ULDB 70) and IOR was now gone and racing was either IMS or PHRF.  Each owner had continuously maintained and updated their boats so the gear worked well and good parts of their sail inventories had low hours.  Market price for their boats were less than the value of the gear/sails/boat parts which worked perfectly well that they could bring across to the new boat.  For each of them it made economic sense to bring the value of what they owned and often had recently upgraded to the new boat.  Plus, it meant they could start the build right away without having to worry about selling one boat before buying another.  The owners weren't going to own two race boats at a time or be trying to sell when most of the world knew they had a new boat under construction and would hammer on the price.  It made economic sense.  Now, that doesn't mean it makes sense to buy an old boat with old sails and use it as a donor.  It is something to examine carefully with very critical eyes. 

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Crankcall didn't get it quite right,  there were several Star 30's built but in several different versions.  FLAK, Risky Business '90, Freestyle, Heartbeat, Jeans, Canned Heat, Short Circuit were not Star 30's.  Of the Star 30's, many were built with the original tall house & cockpit seats which also had higher freeboard to get the headroom. 

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 1:35 PM, crankcall said:

Star marine/Andrews 30 rated 96 in phrf on Lake Ontario, Flak and Notorious (HayJay) were Star 30s . There was some cabinetry but no real interior or V berth in either. I think only six were built. The original Dobroth keel off Absolute wound up on HayJay somehow. I think Absolute has a more 'normal' looking fin keel now.

Original design brief was for a boat that could cruise with full headroom.  Because of the high freeboard and same stem angle to other boats of the day, the Star 30 waterline had to be shorter and with all the accommodations it had to carry, it couldn't get lighter.  When some clients asked about a racing version, we designed the racing deck and cut some freeboard down to make Risky Business '87 which became Flags and Incognito which was originally Red Inc.  Notorious also has the Star 30 racing deck and  freeboard is somewhere in between.  This boat started with Star Marine, spent some time at Northcastle Marine and was essentially finished by Wiggers.  FLAK, Risky '90, Heartbeat and Freestyle are all a newer hull design and were all vacuum S-glass and hi-tech construction for the day.  Waterline is longer, less rocker to the profile aft, more sail area and more draft.  FLAK & Freestyle were just about the last boats built for '89 Internationals with FLAK by Wiggers and Freestyle by H. Gozzard.  Risky '90 and Heartbeat followed a few years later from Wiggers.  Since original launch racing has changed from MORC W/L's generally in less that 15 TWS to PHRF and some races that have reaches.  When racing is mostly W/L's and no one planes and few surf, it is tough not to look carefully at MORC's 1 sec/mile for 100 pounds of weight.  That's what pushed so many of the boats to be up to 7000 pounds.  In recent years many of the boats have taken out internal ballast and increased sail area with longer booms, taller rigs, etc.  They are still pretty nice sailboats but it is quite reasonable for there to be considerable variation in PHRF rating when some A30's built like the original Star 30's don't have ballast to take out.  There are five different Andrews MORC 30 basic hull designs, design differences between some boats from the same molds and probably at least 15% difference between the heaviest and lightest Andrews 30's.  The heavier ones probably also have the shortest waterline length.  Fun boats, glad people are still enjoying racing and winning races, but many Andrews 30's are not even close to being the same as another. 

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Thank you Alan,  that's why I like this place, eventually a really smart guy will show up and know the whole story

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12 hours ago, Alan Andrews said:

Crankcall didn't get it quite right,  there were several Star 30's built but in several different versions.  FLAK, Risky Business '90, Freestyle, Heartbeat, Jeans, Canned Heat, Short Circuit were not Star 30's.  Of the Star 30's, many were built with the original tall house & cockpit seats which also had higher freeboard to get the headroom. 

Original design brief was for a boat that could cruise with full headroom.  Because of the high freeboard and same stem angle to other boats of the day, the Star 30 waterline had to be shorter and with all the accommodations it had to carry, it couldn't get lighter.  When some clients asked about a racing version, we designed the racing deck and cut some freeboard down to make Risky Business '87 which became Flags and Incognito which was originally Red Inc.  Notorious also has the Star 30 racing deck and  freeboard is somewhere in between.  This boat started with Star Marine, spent some time at Northcastle Marine and was essentially finished by Wiggers.  FLAK, Risky '90, Heartbeat and Freestyle are all a newer hull design and were all vacuum S-glass and hi-tech construction for the day.  Waterline is longer, less rocker to the profile aft, more sail area and more draft.  FLAK & Freestyle were just about the last boats built for '89 Internationals with FLAK by Wiggers and Freestyle by H. Gozzard.  Risky '90 and Heartbeat followed a few years later from Wiggers.  Since original launch racing has changed from MORC W/L's generally in less that 15 TWS to PHRF and some races that have reaches.  When racing is mostly W/L's and no one planes and few surf, it is tough not to look carefully at MORC's 1 sec/mile for 100 pounds of weight.  That's what pushed so many of the boats to be up to 7000 pounds.  In recent years many of the boats have taken out internal ballast and increased sail area with longer booms, taller rigs, etc.  They are still pretty nice sailboats but it is quite reasonable for there to be considerable variation in PHRF rating when some A30's built like the original Star 30's don't have ballast to take out.  There are five different Andrews MORC 30 basic hull designs, design differences between some boats from the same molds and probably at least 15% difference between the heaviest and lightest Andrews 30's.  The heavier ones probably also have the shortest waterline length.  Fun boats, glad people are still enjoying racing and winning races, but many Andrews 30's are not even close to being the same as another. 

Thanks Alan, great to understand the design differences between the different iterations of the Andrews MORC 30.  We had a great time with so many of them around Toronto for a while, centred around the 1994 Internationals and Canada Cup.  I was lucky enough to sail on Short Circuit (mid 80s Betts), Red Inc (late 80s Star Turbo), Freestyle (late 80s Scorpio), and Flak (late 80s Wiggers).  Each one was slightly quicker and higher tech than the previous, but all were great sailing boats.  Some may consider them only cabable of "relatively sucky speeds" compared to the latest and greatest, but I still love me them wholesome MORC designs as well-performing platforms that can behave benignly, but really respond to the detail work to stand out in their fleets.

Thanks for the good times!

Cheers!

 

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Question for Mr Andrews, in your reply you mention that there are five different Andrews 30 hull designs. To the untrained eye they all look very similar. Can you provide some direction as to how to differentiate the five? Are any drawings or photo's available?

Interestingly PHRF-LO has identified seven (7) different flavors of the boat. The LO specs can be found at https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/searches-queries/class-search-3 Type in Andrews 30 under class name.

For the record FLAK is alive and well, racing in Buffalo, NY.

Cheers, Paul S.

 

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16 hours ago, nut-hatch said:

Question for Mr Andrews, in your reply you mention that there are five different Andrews 30 hull designs. To the untrained eye they all look very similar. Can you provide some direction as to how to differentiate the five? Are any drawings or photo's available?

Interestingly PHRF-LO has identified seven (7) different flavors of the boat. The LO specs can be found at https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/searches-queries/class-search-3 Type in Andrews 30 under class name.

For the record FLAK is alive and well, racing in Buffalo, NY.

Cheers, Paul S.

 

I'm not AA, but here's my memory / guesstimate of the PHRF-LO boats’ history:

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS1 @ 99 was Flak, adjusted -6 when they switched out to the Van Gorkam keel

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS2 @ 108 was Notorious in her original config

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS3 @ 111 was Short Circuit in her original config

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS4 @ 105 was Risky Business in her original config

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS5 @ 93 was probably Notorious or Risky Business in their reconfig

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS6 @ 99 was probably Volatile Agent (ex Short Circuit) in her reconfig (new appendages, keel, open transom, etc.)

·       ANDREWS 30 CUS7 @ 99 was Heartbeat with the frac rig

 

Each Andrews 30 was a custom build so no two were identical, so PHRF-LO treated each boat as a unique class.  The rig, hull, and displacement dimensions are very specific for all seven boats, so were likely taken from the measurement certificate of another rating system (i.e. MORC). 

 

In addition, there’s three Star 30s listed on PHRF-LO:

·       STAR 30 CUS1 @ 132 is Star Watch

·       STAR 30 CUS2 @ 138 is Star Mist (more interior)

·       STAR 30 CUS3 @ 117 is Red Inc, the Turbo version

 

FYI, musicman has done a fabulous restoration on the original A30 Details, and has a great FB page called "Details Racing" where there's lots of photos and descriptions of differences in various A30s.

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Star Mist still races out of Frenchman's Bay YC to this day, been there for 30 years.

Anyone remember the NorthCastle 30 Cruise Missile? Awesome platform in its day (85-87) in Toronto.....I last sailed on board her in 1994.  I don't think its sailed in 20 years.  Heard she's been rotting away in Nova Scotia for years now - miss that boat!!!!!

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13 hours ago, Pearl Necklace said:

Star Mist still races out of Frenchman's Bay YC to this day, been there for 30 years.

Anyone remember the NorthCastle 30 Cruise Missile? Awesome platform in its day (85-87) in Toronto.....I last sailed on board her in 1994.  I don't think its sailed in 20 years.  Heard she's been rotting away in Nova Scotia for years now - miss that boat!!!!!

Hiya Pearl,

Didja know CA wasn't the original owner of Star Mist?  Boat was originally built for a guy from Belleville, but when he saw Risky Business (Hull #1 of the Turbo version), he traded up to Red Inc before ever taking delivery of Mist, and CA stepped in.  The rest is FBYC history!

BQ is still around, I heard he's sailed on Mac a few times in Chester.  I believe Cruise Missile is still rotting...

Cheers!

 

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Thanks CP.....I didn’t know that about Star Mist. I do remember Red Inc, and another one from Belleville at the time....a Nelson Marek 30 I believe....started with an “I” if I remember it right.....

Glad to hear BQ still sailing; heard he had a scare last year on the water....

cheers

Neck

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Nut-hatch asks about the LO PHRF ratings of all of the Andrews 30's and Critical Path has a very plausible explanation.  I don't have all the numbers handy but the fractional boat is clearly Heartbeat.  Of the others, it is likely the one with I=~44 is ex Short Circuit, ex-Volatile Agent.  my recollection was the new rig was only 1-2' taller than original but could be mistaken. 

How to tell the boats apart?  Sure there are similarities but also differences.  Most of the full race boats have similar cabins and cockpits but differences in hull shape, beam, beam distribution and engine placement.  Keels and rudders have had lots of changes so that's not an easy one.  Details was the first in 1982 and there is only one boat of this design.  Engine is under companionway ladder.  Islander Yachts was going to build a production version but their parent company stopped all investment in tooling and they folded a couple of years later.  As noted elsewhere this boat is racing in LIS when the owner isn't sailing with clients.  Short Circuit/Volatile Agent was also a one-off from 1986 and is currently believed to be racing in NJ.  This boat has wider beam at deck and especially wider beam aft than Details.  Side by side you would say it is a bigger boat. Also, engine is forward, essentially over the keel to help concentrate weight and meet MORC bow down measurement trim.  Construction is higher tech with all vacuumed S-glass over foam.  There is more rocker in the run aft than Details to push harder on MORC's aft overhang and TW measurements.  1988-89 saw Canned Heat (Bare Naked Ladies?) and Jeans built by Scorpio with Jeans having a few inches more freeboard to have 6' headroom.  Engines under cockpit, rocker aft not quite as pushed as Short Circuit and front of cabin houses not the long slant of the other race boats. 

Freestyle/Bondi Tram, FLAK, Risky Business '90, Heartbeat were all to the same base hull design starting in 1989.  As mentioned earlier, there is less rocker aft in part because MORC changed the rule.  Cockpits are probably wider than predecessors.  Freestyle was built by Scorpio and had what could be cockpit seats for day sailing but then a platform to fill the foot well when racing.  The others were built by Wiggers and all were vacuumed S-glass and foam.  Most of this group had travelers aft of the tiller, as did Jeans and Short Circuit.  This allowed the helmsman to be at a wider part of the boat and still allow headsail trimmers some space.

As mentioned earlier, the Star 30's have more freeboard and taller house to achieve 6 foot headroom which means for the 30' LOA limit and raked stem they have shorter waterline length.  The cruising versions have cockpit coamings and seats.  The three race versions - RB '87, Red Inc/Incognito & Notorious have houses similar to Details and Short Circuit and less freeboard than the base version.  When freeboard is cut, the beam aft gets narrower and doesn't put the crew as far outboard so on these boats the aft topsides were spread to get some of this back.  Hope that helps with differentiation.  Many of the Star 30's had the engine forward, just behind the mast again for rating.

PearlN - There was a N/M 30 named Rabble whose original owner then had FLAK built.  Both FLAK and Red Inc. raced for the first time at the same regatta in Rochester in 1989. 

Hope that helps...

 

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 11:52 AM, nut-hatch said:

Question for Mr Andrews, in your reply you mention that there are five different Andrews 30 hull designs. To the untrained eye they all look very similar. Can you provide some direction as to how to differentiate the five? Are any drawings or photo's available?

Interestingly PHRF-LO has identified seven (7) different flavors of the boat. The LO specs can be found at https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/searches-queries/class-search-3 Type in Andrews 30 under class name.

For the record FLAK is alive and well, racing in Buffalo, NY.

Cheers, Paul S.

 

 

2014 at slip.JPG

Bondi Tram ex-Freestyle Design 38.jpg

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Every once in a while this place redeems itself when guys like Bob Perry and Alan show up to inform and educate us. Thanks a lot Alan for all that.

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10 hours ago, Pearl Necklace said:

Thanks CP.....I didn’t know that about Star Mist. I do remember Red Inc, and another one from Belleville at the time....a Nelson Marek 30 I believe....started with an “I” if I remember it right.....

Glad to hear BQ still sailing; heard he had a scare last year on the water....

cheers

Neck

The NM 30 from Belleville was called Watch Out, owned by Peter Morch of the Morch Marine family.

 

9 hours ago, Alan Andrews said:

Nut-hatch asks about the LO PHRF ratings of all of the Andrews 30's and Critical Path has a very plausible explanation.

Freestyle was built by Scorpio and had what could be cockpit seats for day sailing but then a platform to fill the foot well when racing.

The three race versions - RB '87, Red Inc/Incognito & Notorious have houses similar to Details and Short Circuit and less freeboard than the base version.

Both FLAK and Red Inc. raced for the first time at the same regatta in Rochester in 1989.

Thanks for the affirmation Alan, I recall my MORC years fondly, and all the good times spent on great all-round MORC designs with fun people.

I loved the creativity shown in Freestyle's convertible cockpit layout, and wondered why it never showed up again.  Were there any drawbacks (besides the obvious addition of weight) to the hidden footwell in a bathtub cockpit?

I'd forgotten that Notorious came from the Star Turbo's moulds - thanks for the reminder!

Yeah, Flak won 1989 LYRA at Rochester, but Red Inc came back to win at CORK a few weeks later (back when CORK Offshore meant something).  Only good result I can recall Red Inc ever having.  Of course, it helped having Hans onboard, but it was not a fun regatta...

Cheers!

 

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On 11/16/2018 at 2:41 PM, 12 metre said:

Besides the local variations in PHRF, MORC went through several different iterations as to the type of boat favoured IIRC.  So you could expect variations in PHRF for a "typical" MORC-Maxi

The Andrews were on the heavy side.  but some of the mid 80's design were quite a bit lighter.  Case in point, the Davo 30 in the photo below displaced about 4500 lb.  She rated 74 in SoCal and is now 84 in PNW.  Mind you, she had her rig bumped some 2 ft since her post MORC days.  Wolfpack, the Donovan 30 mentioned above is even lighter - by quite a margin.

There was a competitive local MORC built boat that tipped the scales at 4500 lb as well that now rates 108 with an inboard, but would rate 102 in her MORC config.

And lets not forget the J/29, which in MHOB config typically rates around 111.

So, I would expect a last gen MORC-Maxi to rate at least in the 90s, maybe even 80s depending on location.

There was a really nice last gen N/M 30 that sold pretty quickly on SA a year or so ago - asking maybe $25k.  may have been Old School or maybe a sistership if there was one.

dwwdocked2-9d111d27-large.jpg

11051763_1512485499044768_7690189783685269819_o.jpg

This was my boat for couple of years racing out of Sarnia, she was wickedly fast,  was originally called Invincible. she went down the hi way on her side at 60MPH the port side was remade in a mold from the original NM drawings. The interior is cool as it was never painted you can see all the laminates. I purchased and had her it re fair and painted @ T&M custom Marine in Point Edward Ont Bottom done in CV offshore burnished. Put complet set of Carbon sails from Doyle Boston the MORC gurus. We won every thing in our area. sold het to someone in OHIO a couple of years ago they lost the rig, a shame as it was a custom made rig. 

 

Cheers

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On 11/16/2018 at 4:44 PM, dopo said:

Dobroth showed up at a Block Island Race week one year, on one of those crazy big cruising motorcycles with the  giant windshield and  a cranking stereo. Bike was a very dorky tan/ brown  color.   He drove around the island for the week looking like a total nerd. nice guy but super dorky.

 

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