toad

Ocasio

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7 minutes ago, jzk said:

In other words, you are a lying sack of shit.  

So you are willing to put up money so that there is not the creation of an underclass.  This underclass can, of course, be almost slaves to capital in the same way as the 1890s. You are also ready to educate the immigrants in the same way that education in the 1890s was the immigrants way out of poverty.  At the moment we are certainly spending less on education on an adjusted per capita basis than the 1890s.  And how did I lie?  I was merely interpreting the words you said.  You seem high on mother and apple pie,  but low on the mechanisms to bring about the "chances of a better life".   Remember that the economy is not growing at the rate of the 1890s.
 

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1 minute ago, Laker said:

So you are willing to put up money so that there is not the creation of an underclass.  This underclass can, of course, be almost slaves to capital in the same way as the 1890s. You are also ready to educate the immigrants in the same way that education in the 1890s was the immigrants way out of poverty.  At the moment we are certainly spending less on education on an adjusted per capita basis than the 1890s.  And how did I lie?  I was merely interpreting the words you said.  You seem high on mother and apple pie,  but low on the mechanisms to bring about the "chances of a better life".   Remember that the economy is not growing at the rate of the 1890s.
 

No money need be put up.  Do you know the difference between slavery and voluntary transactions?  Any time they don't like it, they can leave.  I bet they stay and make something of themselves.  Just like people did in 1890.  

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On 11/30/2018 at 7:24 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Philly suggested that ICE should be disbanded, and immigration enforcement passed to local authorities. I agree with his premise that local cops should have a better understanding of what's happening in the communities they police than would federal agents.  

You're right, that it's not within local purview to enforce federal law, but, it still happens.  A local cop pops someone for speeding, and finds 10 grams of coke in the car.  Does he let the guy go, call the Feds, or arrest him?  

Most drug laws are state laws. He’d get busted by locals for local law issues.

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On 11/30/2018 at 7:31 AM, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Nice dodge, but, possession of a Class 1 controlled substance is still a federal charge.  The point is that the precedent exists, though I'm not defending that local cops SHOULD do immigration enforcement, Philly's got a point that if they WERE charged with it, it might result in a more effective, less heavy handed approach. 

It’s not a dodge. All those folks in the local county pen for drugs are there because the local prosecutor hit them for state infractions. Otherwise the few fed prosecutors would be overwhelmed.

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People who are here illegally don't get welfare and don't vote. They do everything possible to remain invisible and not draw attention to themselves. Facts don't matter when outrage is on the line.

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7 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

People who are here illegally don't get welfare and don't vote. They do everything possible to remain invisible and not draw attention to themselves. Facts don't matter when outrage is on the line.

Who said they got welfare and voted?

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1 hour ago, Laker said:

With the US resident birthrate at 1.8 children per couple and a requirement for 2.1 children per couple to maintain population, we will require immigrants to maintain the economy.  We can accept a lesser economy by not allowing immigration or just enough to maintain population.  The issue is that much of the US population, baby boomers, are about to leave the population along with their skills, which will further degrade the economy.  This means a) accepting only the educated (elements of a planned economy) b) allowing lots of people and spending lots on education, c) not allowing present US residents to operate at less than optimal skills or d) throw open the gates.  Throw open the gates is what worked for the US economy when there was lots of unsettled land and the economic growth was intense.  Even then the depressions of the late 19th century caused problems with that policy.  

Unfortunately, to Make America Great Again, the throw the gates open policy may be required and accept the social upheaval. 

True conservatives totally understand the seismic demographic shifts. Trumptards, not so much.

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3 hours ago, jzk said:

No money need be put up.  Do you know the difference between slavery and voluntary transactions?  Any time they don't like it, they can leave.  I bet they stay and make something of themselves.  Just like people did in 1890.  

So we have you in favor of creating an underclass with all its issues.  That's fine.  Just don't think that you wont end up paying in other ways.  But that is your option.

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42 minutes ago, Laker said:

So we have you in favor of creating an underclass with all its issues.  That's fine.  Just don't think that you wont end up paying in other ways.  But that is your option.

Lying some more?  I am in favor of people improving their lives through voluntary interactions. 

Why are you opposed to people improving their lives?

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

Lying some more?  I am in favor of people improving their lives through voluntary interactions. 

Why are you opposed to people improving their lives?

You sound like a neoliberal Friedmanist where the free market takes care of everything.  There are free market failures and this whole thread is full of them.  That is what Ocasio is on about.  No, the free market does not solve everything.  To think so is intellectual laziness.  Stop making motherhood and apple pie statements without at least some acknowledgement that it ain't that simple.  By coming here people de facto increase their personal safety, but in many ways their economic situation may not be better.   This creates an underclass that many (I am sure not you) would take advantage of.  A true neoliberal such as yourself would say that the force of the US economy alone will elevate them.  Tell that to the third and fourth generation grape pickers in the California central valley.  Just like a heroin addict, the economy has gotten used to a price for grapes based on the creation of that underclass and as the Okies got replaced by the Mexicans, I am sure the Mexicans will get replaced by the Hondurans.  How did the Okies get elevated out of picking grapes in the Central Valley?  It took a war and a lot of veterans support.  The same is not happening to the Mexicans to the same degree.

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30 minutes ago, Laker said:

You sound like a neoliberal Friedmanist where the free market takes care of everything.  There are free market failures and this whole thread is full of them.  That is what Ocasio is on about.  No, the free market does not solve everything.  To think so is intellectual laziness.  Stop making motherhood and apple pie statements without at least some acknowledgement that it ain't that simple.  By coming here people de facto increase their personal safety, but in many ways their economic situation may not be better.   This creates an underclass that many (I am sure not you) would take advantage of.  A true neoliberal such as yourself would say that the force of the US economy alone will elevate them.  Tell that to the third and fourth generation grape pickers in the California central valley.  Just like a heroin addict, the economy has gotten used to a price for grapes based on the creation of that underclass and as the Okies got replaced by the Mexicans, I am sure the Mexicans will get replaced by the Hondurans.  How did the Okies get elevated out of picking grapes in the Central Valley?  It took a war and a lot of veterans support.  The same is not happening to the Mexicans to the same degree.

These people are living in squalor in other countries.  If they come here, they can greatly improve their lives.  And they can be more productive.  If grape pickers think they have better opportunity doing something else somewhere else, they should do that.  The economy can't force them to stay picking grapes.  They have choices.  

So they better their lives.  And we better our lives.  And they have the opportunity to start businesses, be successful, educate their children and give them a life better than they had.

That is win-win.  They are better, and we are better.  Meanwhile, if they want to educate themselves they have all sorts of opportunities unavailable to them previously.  

There are not many market externalities beyond the environment.  And the reason that the environment is an externality is the same reason that socialism can't work.  When people share something, they take shit care of it.  

If people don't think they can have a better life here, then they won't come here.  And that is ok also.  But they do want to come here.  And even in the 1890s they really wanted to come here.  And when they did, they improved their lives and sent for their families.  And more people came.  People didn't say "you don't want to come here, as you will just be exploited under the boot of some capitalist robber baron.  Instead, they just kept coming.  And they improved their lives in every measurable way all throughout the 1800s and early 1900s.  

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The maga’s are going to be confused when Ocasio keeps tweeting details of the massive trough their congressmen have their snouts in

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3 hours ago, jzk said:

These people are living in squalor in other countries.  If they come here, they can greatly improve their lives.  And they can be more productive.  If grape pickers think they have better opportunity doing something else somewhere else, they should do that.  The economy can't force them to stay picking grapes.  They have choices.  

So they better their lives.  And we better our lives.  And they have the opportunity to start businesses, be successful, educate their children and give them a life better than they had.

That is win-win.  They are better, and we are better.  Meanwhile, if they want to educate themselves they have all sorts of opportunities unavailable to them previously.  

There are not many market externalities beyond the environment.  And the reason that the environment is an externality is the same reason that socialism can't work.  When people share something, they take shit care of it.  

If people don't think they can have a better life here, then they won't come here.  And that is ok also.  But they do want to come here.  And even in the 1890s they really wanted to come here.  And when they did, they improved their lives and sent for their families.  And more people came.  People didn't say "you don't want to come here, as you will just be exploited under the boot of some capitalist robber baron.  Instead, they just kept coming.  And they improved their lives in every measurable way all throughout the 1800s and early 1900s.  

You really have drunk the Kool-aid.

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48 minutes ago, Laker said:

You really have drunk the Kool-aid.

No, there's a short circuit in the compassion board. Looks like a lot of that model don't function well because of that.

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10 hours ago, jzk said:

Lying some more?  I am in favor of people improving their lives through voluntary interactions. 

Why are you opposed to people improving their lives?

There you go...clearest statement supporting the Caravan seeking economic asylum* yet.  Nice work.  

*Just like Trump’s dear old mom.

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7 hours ago, Laker said:

You really have drunk the Kool-aid.

That is not an argument, and what does that have to do with immigration?  There are millions and millions of miserable unproductive people that would love to come here.  And if they came here, they could have the opportunity to be much more productive, lead much better lives, and help people here improve their lives as well as a result of their coming

Win-win-win.  What is the specific problem with that?  You would prevent them from coming because they wouldn't improve their lives "enough?"  Is not some better than none?

And what makes you think that these people are not able to succeed and prosper on their own?  You think they can't make it in the world without your "help?"

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Certainly leaving their squalid homes, in dangerous countries and coming to the USA to live in a safe(r) place with better living conditions would be voluntarily improving their lives.....

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20 hours ago, jzk said:

It depends.  Are they coming here to work hard and create a better life?  If so, welcome.  Or, are they coming for a free ride?  Then, not so much.

You could compare the difference in treatment between asylum and immigration.

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11 hours ago, toad said:

The maga’s are going to be confused when Ocasio keeps tweeting details of the massive trough their congressmen have their snouts in

The trough is bi-partisan.  Apparently there will now be fewer R snouts and more D snouts (including Ocasio-Cortez) in the trough.

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2 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

You could compare the difference in treatment between asylum and immigration.

I don't really care.  It is win-win-win to let them in.

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2 hours ago, Saorsa said:

The trough is bi-partisan.  Apparently there will now be fewer R snouts and more D snouts (including Ocasio-Cortez) in the trough.

The trough is certainly bipartisan.  She is likely to piss off the entrenched Democrats as much as the entrenched Republicans.

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43 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

The trough is certainly bipartisan.  She is likely to piss off the entrenched Democrats as much as the entrenched Republicans.

That would depend on whether she wants to be re-elected.

She'll be as interesting to watch as the TEA party first termers.

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

The trough is bi-partisan.  Apparently there will now be fewer R snouts and more D snouts (including Ocasio-Cortez) in the trough.

Amusing, Mister Minister. In your lengthy stellar career, when were you ever not in the trough? From what I've read of what you've wrote, you were always in the trough and now you are getting trough retirement benefits. My dad spent almost all of his entire career in the trough but then he had enough self-awareness to refer to it as welfare for engineers. I'll grant you that trough is shorter.

Nothing says small govmint quite like a monthly check from said same.

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15 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

How we gonna mock her for this?

C7F63C95-4DCC-4522-B658-E049B63B0DD9.jpeg

It seems that Congress is a job where members get 72% of the cost of their insurance paid.  We can debate what ought to be proper compensation of a member of congress, but why would we expect every job to have the same benefits?  Why would we expect a waitress job to have the same benefits as a member of congress?  

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

It seems that Congress is a job where members get 72% of the cost of their insurance paid.  We can debate what ought to be proper compensation of a member of congress, but why would we expect every job to have the same benefits?  Why would we expect a waitress job to have the same benefits as a member of congress?  

Let's first start with the stone cold fact that waitresses pay for Members of Congress and not the other way around. Being a Critter is a govmint job and someone has to pay for that. There's about 2.6M waitresses and waiters in the US of Fucking A. Critters make $174,000, starting.

Start with that.

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Just now, Olsonist said:

Let's first start with the stone cold fact that waitresses pay for Members of Congress and not the other way around. Being a Critter is a govmint job and someone has to pay for that. There's about 2.6M waitresses and waiters in the US of Fucking A. Critters make $174,000, starting.

Start with that.

And don't forget the pension. 

So some jobs pay more than others.  So what?

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Just now, jzk said:

And don't forget the pension. 

So some jobs pay more than others.  So what?

Some jobs pay for others. That's what.

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Just now, Olsonist said:

Some jobs pay for others. That's what.

You think we should make government smaller?  Great idea!

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7 minutes ago, jzk said:

You think we should make government smaller?  Great idea!

Cancel the F35! Well, too late for that and it's too late for the Iraq War (it will pay for itself!). Nah, but let's chisel some waitresses.

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

Cancel the F35! Well, too late for that and it's too late for the Iraq War (it will pay for itself!). Nah, but let's chisel some waitresses.

Who is chiseling waitresses?  You mean to say that by not paying for their healthcare we are "chiseling" them?  I think they should buy whatever healthcare they choose.  

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You're chiseling waitresses. You're OK with Critters getting the benefits that waitresses pay for, your version of trickle up. Perhaps you meant to say that waitresses can keep the health insurance that they don't have because they can't afford it.

Nothing says small govmint quite like trickle up.

 

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

You're chiseling waitresses. You're OK with Critters getting the benefits that waitresses pay for, your version of trickle up. Perhaps you meant to say that waitresses can keep the health insurance that they don't have because they can't afford it.

Nothing says small govmint quite like trickle up.

 
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Even i think that we should have government jobs.  And pay should be appropriate.  The idea that everyone else in the land deserves equal benefits is preposterous.  

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4 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

You're chiseling waitresses. You're OK with Critters getting the benefits that waitresses pay for, your version of trickle up. Perhaps you meant to say that waitresses can keep the health insurance that they don't have because they can't afford it.

Nothing says small govmint quite like trickle up.

 
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In this great economy there are plenty of opportunities for waitresses to get a better job with better pay and benefits. 

 

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24 minutes ago, J28 said:

In this great economy there are plenty of opportunities for waitresses to get a better job with better pay and benefits. 

Ocasio-Cortez did.

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5 hours ago, Saorsa said:

The trough is bi-partisan.  Apparently there will now be fewer R snouts and more D snouts (including Ocasio-Cortez) in the trough.

spot on, takes a person with strong character to resist the perks of the job. Hard to go back to waitressing when your insurance doubles and your wages drop to 20k a year plus tips for taking a lot of crap.

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32 minutes ago, J28 said:

In this great economy there are plenty of opportunities for waitresses to get a better job with better pay and benefits. 

 

Really?? I live in a town described by many who create such lists as the best place in the USA for business or jobs opportunities. 150 new people come here EVERY DAY!!

Waitstaff in popular upscale restaurants  do pretty well. 

Many of the new unfilled jobs do offer better pay and benefits FOR THOSE WITH THE RIGHT RESUMES. 

What jobs are open for those whose resume says:

washed dishes, promoted to cleaning tables, promoted to day shift waiter, promoted to dinner shift waiter?? 

note: Congressman is NOT an available answer as the Texas Legislature  gerrymandered the districts such that Austin does not have its own congressman 

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2 hours ago, jzk said:

It seems that Congress is a job where members get 72% of the cost of their insurance paid.  We can debate what ought to be proper compensation of a member of congress, but why would we expect every job to have the same benefits?  Why would we expect a waitress job to have the same benefits as a member of congress?  

Why would we expect health care to be job-dependent or employer-based?

Why shouldn't every citizen have the same benefits and access to health care and education?

Just asking for a Danish friend of mine.

Is the answer "American Exceptionalism"?

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4 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Why would we expect health care to be job-dependent or employer-based?

Why shouldn't every citizen have the same benefits and access to health care and education?

Just asking for a Danish friend of mine.

Is the answer "American Exceptionalism"?

Because health care is a service that has actual costs.  Forcing others to provide a service for you is slavery.  But having a variety of choices available in health care is ideal.

You are free, however, to have it your friend's way.  Just band together in a co-op with all the people that want the same benefits, pool your resources, and provide them for each other.

See how great freedom is?  Something for everyone.

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3 minutes ago, jzk said:

Because health care is a service that has actual costs.  Forcing others to provide a service for you is slavery.  But having a variety of choices available in health care is ideal.

You are free, however, to have it your friend's way.  Just band together in a co-op with all the people that want the same benefits, pool your resources, and provide them for each other.

See how great freedom is?  Something for everyone.

Open borders...larger pools across state and even international borders 

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Just now, SailBlueH2O said:

Open borders...larger pools across state and even international borders 

Pool up with whatever group you choose. All kinds of choices.

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2 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Open borders...larger pools across state and even international borders 

WOW, how is that job in Mexico you're shooting for?

 

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8 minutes ago, jzk said:

Because health care is a service that has actual costs.  Forcing others to provide a service for you is slavery.  But having a variety of choices available in health care is ideal.

You are free, however, to have it your friend's way.  Just band together in a co-op with all the people that want the same benefits, pool your resources, and provide them for each other.

See how great freedom is?  Something for everyone.

You shouldn't keep on proving just how knee-jerk your "thought" processes are.

Health care and education, just like the military, highways, emergency response, policing, etc. are all appropriate government functions with public benefits that have actual costs and benefits to the entire population.  

And we, you and I, did "band together" in a co-op with people that want the same benefits, I joined at birth, many join by passing the initiation tests...It's called being a citizen of the US.  What do you think is more intrinsically covered in the phrase "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" than health care?

 

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2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

You shouldn't keep on proving just how knee-jerk your "thought" processes are.

Health care and education, just like the military, highways, emergency response, policing, etc. are all appropriate government functions with public benefits that have actual costs and benefits to the entire population.  

And we, you and I, did "band together" in a co-op with people that want the same benefits, I joined at birth, many join by passing the initiation tests...It's called being a citizen of the US.  What do you think is more intrinsically covered in the phrase "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" than health care?

 

No provisions for providing healthcare to everyone were made at the founding of this country.  You are just making shit up now.  

Why must you force your views on others?  If your view is sustainable, pool a group of voluntary members and give free shit to each other.  Don't forget free college.  

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Really?? I live in a town described by many who create such lists as the best place in the USA for business or jobs opportunities. 150 new people come here EVERY DAY!!

Waitstaff in popular upscale restaurants  do pretty well. 

Many of the new unfilled jobs do offer better pay and benefits FOR THOSE WITH THE RIGHT RESUMES. 

What jobs are open for those whose resume says:

washed dishes, promoted to cleaning tables, promoted to day shift waiter, promoted to dinner shift waiter?? 

note: Congressman is NOT an available answer as the Texas Legislature  gerrymandered the districts such that Austin does not have its own congressman 

Sounds like there are plenty of opportunities up and down the job spectrum!  Thanks Trump!

 

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23 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Just asking for a Danish friend of mine.

Just wondering about the % of your "Danish friend's" income that goes towards funding all the free stuff.

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13 minutes ago, jzk said:

No provisions for providing healthcare to everyone were made at the founding of this country.

You sure that is the bar you want to set?

Lots of things weren’t provided for st the founding of this country. 

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2 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

You sure that is the bar you want to set?

Lots of things weren’t provided for st the founding of this country. 

If you don't like it, feel free to get an amendment that guarantees free healthcare for life.

Might want to work on that plan to implement Swedish taxation levels before pushing the amendment.

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13 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

You sure that is the bar you want to set?

Lots of things weren’t provided for st the founding of this country. 

So what?  

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23 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

Just wondering about the % of your "Danish friend's" income that goes towards funding all the free stuff.

They know its not "free", just value for money.

And it is quite apparent that they, and the rest of the country, see that it is worth it.  And for Denmark to regularly show up on lists of the "happiest" country in the world.  A list that the US never shows up on. 

(All of you and your socks...would you please stop honking that bleating horn that people who want universal health care think it's "free stuff")

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4 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

If you don't like it, feel free to get an amendment that guarantees free healthcare for life.

Might want to work on that plan to implement Swedish taxation levels before pushing the amendment.

Another of the happiest countries in the world.  

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4 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

They know its not "free", just value for money.

And it is quite apparent that they, and the rest of the country, see that it is worth it.  And for Denmark to regularly show up on lists of the "happiest" country in the world.  A list that the US never shows up on. 

(All of you and your socks...would you please stop honking that bleating horn that people who want universal health care think it's "free stuff")

It it is a happy system, then all the people that band together in the US to provide free shit to each other will be super happy.   Why do you need to impose it on those that do not wish to be part of your group?

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

It it is a happy system, then all the people that band together in the US to provide free shit to each other will be super happy.   Why do you need to impose it on those that do not wish to be part of your group?

 

Who paid for the roads you drive on, again?

-DSK

 

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35 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

Just wondering about the % of your "Danish friend's" income that goes towards funding all the free stuff.

Does money make you happy?

-DSK

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

 

Who paid for the roads you drive on, again?

-DSK

 

Muh Roads!  Bwhaaaahhaahaha.  If your health care pool is so great, why is no one doing it voluntarily?  Why must you FORCE it upon other people for it to work?

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Does money make you happy?

-DSK

It makes me very happy.  Rather than doing everything for myself like growing my own food, building my own car, drilling for my own natural gas, etc., I have been able to specialize in one thing and then through the use of "money" I can exchange the benefits of that specialization and have all sorts of things in my life that I would never be have been able to have before.  

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56 minutes ago, jzk said:

Because health care is a service that has actual costs.  Forcing others to provide a service for you is slavery.  But having a variety of choices available in health care is ideal.

You are free, however, to have it your friend's way.  Just band together in a co-op with all the people that want the same benefits, pool your resources, and provide them for each other.

See how great freedom is?  Something for everyone.

That is exactly how it is done. Except that in this country, we tend to call it "health insurance" and because it is a three-way adversarial system between the customer, the bill payer, and the service provider, it is very inefficent and expensive. Villas on the Med for the insurance company CEO, of course.

 

1 minute ago, jzk said:

Muh Roads!  Bwhaaaahhaahaha.  If your health care pool is so great, why is no one doing it voluntarily?  Why must you FORCE it upon other people for it to work?

Because the companies who SELL a spot in the pool (and are funding that villa on the Med) will not voluntarily extend membership to those who are poor and/or sick. And personally, I'm tired of seeing hospitals close emergency rooms because of all the poor people using it for free health care.

And nobody's forcing anything. By your own standard, if you don't like the health care system in the USA, move. I believe a scion of your ideological elk once made a big noise about that same thing, but didn't have the balls for follow thru.

-DSK

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Just now, jzk said:

It makes me very happy.  Rather than doing everything for myself like growing my own food, building my own car, drilling for my own natural gas, etc., I have been able to specialize in one thing and then through the use of "money" I can exchange the benefits of that specialization and have all sorts of things in my life that I would never be have been able to have before.  

And you use a government as an economic underpinning for all the above.

Yet it seems to make you very angry to pay for it. Why don't you move to a country where there isn't one, or far less of one anyway? No balls?

-DSK

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Just now, jzk said:

It makes me very happy.  Rather than doing everything for myself like growing my own food, building my own car, drilling for my own natural gas, etc., I have been able to specialize in one thing and then through the use of "money" I can exchange the benefits of that specialization and have all sorts of things in my life that I would never be have been able to have before.  

In other words, you enjoy being part of a common society in which each member provides value for others.  Now, extend that thought to healthcare and see how your money can be wisely spent a pro rata share of a common need.  Just like that natural gas or those Interstate highways.  Got it?  

 

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Just now, Left Shift said:

In other words, you enjoy being part of a common society in which each member provides value for others.  Now, extend that thought to healthcare and see how your money can be wisely spent a pro rata share of a common need.  Just like that natural gas or those Interstate highways.  Got it?  

 

Not quite.  

 

2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

And you use a government as an economic underpinning for all the above.

Yet it seems to make you very angry to pay for it. Why don't you move to a country where there isn't one, or far less of one anyway? No balls?

-DSK

Why don't you move to Venezuela?  We don't have nationalized health care now.  Your position is that if I don't want your idea imposed on me, I should leave?  What kind of shit argument is that?

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2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

In other words, you enjoy being part of a common society in which each member provides value for others.  Now, extend that thought to healthcare and see how your money can be wisely spent a pro rata share of a common need.  Just like that natural gas or those Interstate highways.  Got it?  

 

Yes, let's extend that to healthcare.  We should have a 100% free healthcare market.  Then, insurance would cost as much as a cell phone plan and health care providers would battle each other with quality and low price to earn my business.

That is exactly what we should do.  Thank you for suggesting it.

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2 minutes ago, bpm57 said:
5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

And nobody's forcing anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

Can't read too good?

There's these places all along the border of the US where they let you out.

1 minute ago, jzk said:

...    ...    ...

Why don't you move to Venezuela?  We don't have nationalized health care now.  Your position is that if I don't want your idea imposed on me, I should leave?  What kind of shit argument is that?

Why should you benefit from a system you hate and do not want to participate in? If almost everybody else does, then you  don't have much choice. Life sucks like that, some times.

Of course there's the alternative that you stay and participate in all the FREE STUFF that you get now, and hate paying for. Later you can go to a doctor when you're sick with full confidence that they can't turn you out to die in the street.

-DSK

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9 minutes ago, jzk said:

Muh Roads!  Bwhaaaahhaahaha.  If your health care pool is so great, why is no one doing it voluntarily?  Why must you FORCE it upon other people for it to work?

Pay attention!  10s of millions of people are doing it voluntarily.  Others have to be nudged, regrettably, because, like you, they have drunk the Flavor Aid* lies that somehow health care is different.  That we have the "best' system now. That "health insurance" is an efficient delivery mechanism.  And all those pesky personal bankruptcies are just folks who didn't manage their money properly.  

At this point, of course, your pool of socks may actually be able to get a pretty good discount rate from GEICO.  Which ironically stands for "Government Employees Insurance Company".

* The actual cheap shit used at Jonestown.

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Can't read too good?

There's these places all along the border of the US where they let you out.

Why should you benefit from a system you hate and do not want to participate in? If almost everybody else does, then you  don't have much choice. Life sucks like that, some times.

Of course there's the alternative that you stay and participate in all the FREE STUFF that you get now, and hate paying for. Later you can go to a doctor when you're sick with full confidence that they can't turn you out to die in the street.

-DSK

We don't have nationalized healthcare now.  All those that oppose such should leave?  That is your argument?  Why do you feel the need to force your positions on other people?  I would never force mine on you.  Can't your way hold up in a voluntary system?  What are you afraid of?

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

Yes, let's extend that to healthcare.  We should have a 100% free healthcare market.  Then, insurance would cost as much as a cell phone plan and health care providers would battle each other with quality and low price to earn my business.

That is exactly what we should do.  Thank you for suggesting it.

If that's how you think it works, I see your problem, and the hopelessness of this thread.  Until you do understand how universal health care works, you really should not post any of your drivel anymore.  

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Just now, Left Shift said:

If that's how you think it works, I see your problem, and the hopelessness of this thread.  Until you do understand how universal health care works, you really should not post any of your drivel anymore.  

This is not an argument.  It is really just a wasted post.  If you want universal health care, band up with all of the other people that want it and leave us out of it.  Why the need to force your position on other people?

 

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2 minutes ago, jzk said:

We don't have nationalized healthcare now.  All those that oppose such should leave?  That is your argument?  Why do you feel the need to force your positions on other people?  I would never force mine on you.  Can't your way hold up in a voluntary system?  What are you afraid of?

Actually, we do have nationalized health care now.

And I'm not interested in forcing you to leave, you are the one who is constantly bitching about how you can't stand paying for things you use but somehow don't believe costs anything. I'm suggesting that you'd be a lot happier elsewhere, without this awful socialistic tyranny constantly raiding your wallet and taking away the money that makes you so happy

4 minutes ago, jzk said:

This is not an argument.  It is really just a wasted post.  If you want universal health care, band up with all of the other people that want it and leave us out of it.  Why the need to force your position on other people?

 

Ever go a to the doctor? You paid cash, right?

-DSK

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, we do have nationalized health care now.

And I'm not interested in forcing you to leave, you are the one who is constantly bitching about how you can't stand paying for things you use but somehow don't believe costs anything. I'm suggesting that you'd be a lot happier elsewhere, without this awful socialistic tyranny constantly raiding your wallet and taking away the money that makes you so happy

Ever go a to the doctor? You paid cash, right?

-DSK

Your point is that a private insurance program is appropriate?  Sounds good to me.

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2 minutes ago, jzk said:
7 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

...    ...    ... Ever go a to the doctor? You paid cash, right?



Your point is that a private insurance program is appropriate?  Sounds good to me.

No my point is that you got FREE health care, according to your standards.

-DSK

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

No my point is that you got FREE health care, according to your standards.

-DSK

What a stupid argument.  Either I agree with your socialist views, or I am complaining about purchasing things that I need?  Really stupid.  

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

What a stupid argument.  Either I agree with your socialist views, or I am complaining about purchasing things that I need?  Really stupid.  

Who are you calling a socialist? You're the one who participates in a collectivized system for health care, then demands that others pay for stuff you use.

You're not just a socialsit, you're a hypocrit. And you're far less educated on economics that you should be.

-DSK

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30 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Can't read too good?

That is your answer to "nobody's forcing anything"?

Its almost like National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius never happened in your world.

Or you have some unique definition of "forced".

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24 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Who are you calling a socialist? You're the one who participates in a collectivized system for health care, then demands that others pay for stuff you use.

You're not just a socialsit, you're a hypocrit. And you're far less educated on economics that you should be.

-DSK

Now you have gone from plain stupid to just lying.  I demand others pay for my stuff?  

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Funny thing about National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius,  is one COULD say it's a big ol':  "Grow the fuck up and be responsible for yourself" act - which the right SEEMS to just love (see: Personal responsibility) - in this case:  Listen up  you screw-heads,  You are not allowed to just get sick and die on our tab.

Thus,  everybody's gotta join - and if IF the rates had magically dropped under the 44th president,  wouldn't THAT have just been awful ?  Couldn't let that happen.

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4 hours ago, bpm57 said:

Just wondering about the % of your "Danish friend's" income that goes towards funding all the free stuff.

Proportionately less than in the US.  Remember healthcare Denmark 18% GDP, healthcare US 33% GDP.  The joys of choice

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3 hours ago, jzk said:

Now you have gone from plain stupid to just lying.  I demand others pay for my stuff?  

Who paid the doctor?

Ever drive on a paved road?

-DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Who paid the doctor?

Ever drive on a paved road?

-DSK

Doug, you're arguing with a doorknob. Nothing is going to change his tiny mind.

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Who paid the doctor?

Ever drive on a paved road?

-DSK

The roads again?  This is your case for socialized healthcare?  Lame.

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9 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Doug, you're arguing with a doorknob. Nothing is going to change his tiny mind.

Of course not. He used up all his available brain cells memorizing those few slogans he keeps parrotting. But he can serve as a warning to others.

 

10 minutes ago, jzk said:

The roads again?  This is your case for socialized healthcare?  Lame.

Insults already? Don't you have a few more stock slogans about free markets to throw around?

Just answer the question, if you can figure it out

-DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Of course not. He used up all his available brain cells memorizing those few slogans he keeps parrotting. But he can serve as a warning to others.

 

Insults already? Don't you have a few more stock slogans about free markets to throw around?

Just answer the question, if you can figure it out

-DSK

Do you have a case to make for something?

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7 minutes ago, jzk said:

Do you have a case to make for something?

The case is relatively simple but you have to know & understand more of the world than you seem to. Screaming "Socialist!" and repeating "free market, free market" is not the way to solve the health care problem. FWIW I think there could be quite a good solution that would apply some level-market principles.

The guys buying those Med villas with our health insurance dollars are also buying a lot of gov't interference in your "free market." Got a solution to that part of the problem?

Did you pay your doctor in cash last time you went to see him?

-DSK

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Jizz kid is back?

 What happened, one of hisvother socks got flicked?

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The case is relatively simple but you have to know & understand more of the world than you seem to. Screaming "Socialist!" and repeating "free market, free market" is not the way to solve the health care problem. FWIW I think there could be quite a good solution that would apply some level-market principles.

The guys buying those Med villas with our health insurance dollars are also buying a lot of gov't interference in your "free market." Got a solution to that part of the problem?

Did you pay your doctor in cash last time you went to see him?

-DSK

Government influence for sale is a government problem, not a capitalism problem.

I drive on government roads.  Therefore we should have socialist healthcare?  I think not.

I have insurance.  When I go to the doctor, I pay some of it with a credit card, and my insurance company pays the rest.  Therefore we should have socialist healthcare?

Come on.   Make a case for something.  

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42 minutes ago, jzk said:

Government influence for sale is a government problem, not a capitalism problem.

 

Actually, it -is- a capitalism problem. You can make a lot more money with a smile and a gun, than you can with just a smile. Isn't maximizing profits always good?

 

44 minutes ago, jzk said:

 

I drive on government roads.  Therefore we should have socialist healthcare?  I think not.

 

You're trying to drive in the ditch, at the moment. Slow down, watch the signs.

 

45 minutes ago, jzk said:

...   ...    ...

I have insurance.  When I go to the doctor, I pay some of it with a credit card, and my insurance company pays the rest.  Therefore we should have socialist healthcare?

 

Therefor you already have socialist health care. FREE STUFF! You're getting a service -you- didn't pay for, nyet?

-DSK

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6 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Just asking for a Danish friend of mine.

 

How Copenhagen used to live.

DSC_1295w.jpg

How it is today

DSC_1299web.JPG

Copenhagen has it's own income tax at 23.8% on top of the national taxes of 55% plus 5% Health Tax.

OH, if you have anything left and buy something the consumption tax (VAT) is 25% except for cars which are 105% or 150%.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, it -is- a capitalism problem. You can make a lot more money with a smile and a gun, than you can with just a smile. Isn't maximizing profits always good?

 

You're trying to drive in the ditch, at the moment. Slow down, watch the signs.

 

Therefor you already have socialist health care. FREE STUFF! You're getting a service -you- didn't pay for, nyet?

-DSK

You think that private insurance is the same as socialism, and that government obstructing the free market is capitalism?  I see now why you are having so much trouble making a case for anything.  

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Central planning: price controls (tariffs), and such by the current Republican Central Committee seems to be perfectly fine. Bossing around Amazon, Apple, GM, the Fed, et al is perfectly fine. Helping the lobbyists in the swamp further corporate goals of selected industries (coal?) is perfectly fine.

Regulating the healthcare industry to benefit the general public, not so much.

Yeah, morons, continue shooting yourselves in the feet. The 1% is not yet tired of winning. Are you?

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