toad

Ocasio

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, jzk said:
9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Uh huh

Because providers of health care are going to compete to provide service to sick people who are already bankrupt? Or the elderly living on SocSec?

-DSK

Do poor people in the US have cell phones, refrigeration, indoor plumbing, automobiles, and flat screen TVs?  

There are two ways for you to help the poor.  You can help them, or you can vote to force other people to help them.  Either way, the more that we have a system that brings high quality, low cost goods and services, the better.

And there's really only a binary state for everything: capitalist or not. Free market or not. You extoll how great this is, yet every time anyone (including you) takes a closer look, any part of the system which works to provide wide-spread benefits turns out to be "not." How come?

Automobiles is a good comparison to health care, in the finance dept anyway. Very very few poor people have the wealth in hand to buy a car. But they can finance one. Much of the time, this feeds a ridiculously profitable credit business.... essentially legalized loan-sharking. So they're on the hook for payments with a worse car than they could have afforded otherwise..... hmmm maybe you don't want to make this comparison after all......

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, jzk said:

Are you disabled or disadvantaged in some way?  Why do you think the rest of the people should pay to provide internet access to your rural area?

It is one thing to help the poor.  It is another for you as a perfectly capable person to expect the rest of society to pay for your bills.

Because it has been very well proven to be a good way to run a civilized society. Nips the violent revolutions in the bud.

But more to the point: Why do you think the rest of the people should pay for a military to protect the assets of the rich?

The military and highway and police are completely socialized. Not a whiff of capitalism within them. Yet I would guess you love what they do. Yes? (Well highways are kinda bad because they let brown people use them...but having the military and police boots on the brown peoples necks almost makes up for that error...right?)

Socialist countries have rightly determined that equalizing telephone, post, internet and such among poor/rich, urban/rural is hugely advantageous to everyone. Imagine if America’s flyover states had no phones, post, power or roads during the huge growth of the post-war period. Do ya suppose the country was as a whole far better off? You would tell Kansas, Montana, etc just shut up and die?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

And there's really only a binary state for everything: capitalist or not. Free market or not. You extoll how great this is, yet every time anyone (including you) takes a closer look, any part of the system which works to provide wide-spread benefits turns out to be "not." How come?

Automobiles is a good comparison to health care, in the finance dept anyway. Very very few poor people have the wealth in hand to buy a car. But they can finance one. Much of the time, this feeds a ridiculously profitable credit business.... essentially legalized loan-sharking. So they're on the hook for payments with a worse car than they could have afforded otherwise..... hmmm maybe you don't want to make this comparison after all......

-DSK

Your point is that people are stupid and need your rule to help them make good decisions?

Of course it is not binary.  We need government for all sorts of things, maybe even roads.  But a poor person that can get a car for little or no money down and have access to transportation unprecedented in human history?  Not bad at all.  If you don't like the interest rate, take the bus for a few more weeks and buy cash.  I bought a car once for $2,000 that provided very reliable transportation.  In a market economy, many choices are available.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Because it has been very well proven to be a good way to run a civilized society. Nips the violent revolutions in the bud.

But more to the point: Why do you think the rest of the people should pay for a military to protect the assets of the rich?

The military and highway and police are completely socialized. Not a whiff of capitalism within them. Yet I would guess you love what they do. Yes? (Well highways are kinda bad because they let brown people use them...but having the military and police boots on the brown peoples necks almost makes up for that error...right?)

Socialist countries have rightly determined that equalizing telephone, post, internet and such among poor/rich, urban/rural is hugely advantageous to everyone. Imagine if America’s flyover states had no phones, post, power or roads during the huge growth of the post-war period. Do ya suppose the country was as a whole far better off? You would tell Kansas, Montana, etc just shut up and die?

Racism?  That is the best you can do?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, jzk said:

Your point is that people are stupid and need your rule to help them make good decisions?

Of course it is not binary.  We need government for all sorts of things, maybe even roads.  But a poor person that can get a car for little or no money down and have access to transportation unprecedented in human history?  Not bad at all.  If you don't like the interest rate, take the bus for a few more weeks and buy cash.  I bought a car once for $2,000 that provided very reliable transportation.  In a market economy, many choices are available.  

And who would provide 'the bus' that the poor folks would take until they get smart enough/hard working enough to afford a car? Transit systems are socialism in action. Most of the people paying for the transit system don't actually used it. Surely you can see the fallacy in your beliefs ... or perhaps not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Most American poor are that way because they choose to live that way...like water everyone finds their own economic level of comfort

I thought this was one of the lefties saying this in jest and then I looked at the poster and realized that it was someone who actually believed this ridiculousness. Do you have any education at all in how things actually work?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

And who would provide 'the bus' that the poor folks would take until they get smart enough/hard working enough to afford a car? Transit systems are socialism in action. Most of the people paying for the transit system don't actually used it. Surely you can see the fallacy in your beliefs ... or perhaps not.

It is your fallacy assuming that I advocate for no government.  Is it your position that bus transportation systems can only be run by the government?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you point out an urban transportation system that is not run and heavily subsidized by government. In Western Canada, Greyhound shut down their bus routes because they were not making money there. Governments have stepped in to provide bus services which are needed if not needed enough to make a profit possible. Reality is a difficult thing for you I know, but deal with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

90%+ of adults in the world own a cellphone. >70% own a smartphone. That's adults, total, thinking US poor are special because they own a cellphone is a special sort of disconnect from reality unique to US conservitrolls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Can you point out an urban transportation system that is not run and heavily subsidized by government. In Western Canada, Greyhound shut down their bus routes because they were not making money there. Governments have stepped in to provide bus services which are needed if not needed enough to make a profit possible. Reality is a difficult thing for you I know, but deal with it.

That one business failed is no case against business.  Let's say that Chicago shut down its bus system.  Is it really your position that no private companies could step in and provide reliable, low cost transportation that is still affordable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jzk said:

Your point is that people are stupid and need your rule to help them make good decisions?

Of course it is not binary.  We need government for all sorts of things, maybe even roads.  But a poor person that can get a car for little or no money down and have access to transportation unprecedented in human history?  Not bad at all.  If you don't like the interest rate, take the bus for a few more weeks and buy cash.  I bought a car once for $2,000 that provided very reliable transportation.  In a market economy, many choices are available.  

You must be a good bit younger than me, I've bought several cars/trucks for way less than $2k that were my "reliable transportation." But that was also before 20+ years of wage stagnation.

If you could save $2 grand in "a few weeks" then you were by no means poor or even middle class. Over 40% of families in the US could not scrape together $400 cash in an emergency. https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-household-finances/index.html

Seems like a trivial sum to me but then I have played the capitalism game fairly well, an indication that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. You say you've started & run a business, which ought to be good, but you keep spouting nonsense.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

You must be a good bit younger than me, I've bought several cars/trucks for way less than $2k that were my "reliable transportation." But that was also before 20+ years of wage stagnation.

If you could save $2 grand in "a few weeks" then you were by no means poor or even middle class. Over 40% of families in the US could not scrape together $400 cash in an emergency. https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/22/pf/emergency-expenses-household-finances/index.html



 

 

Seems like a trivial sum to me but then I have played the capitalism game fairly well, an indication that I know what the fuck I'm talking about. You say you've started & run a business, which ought to be good, but you keep spouting nonsense.

-DSK

You haven't really made a point here.  If you know what the fuck you are talking about, then make a case for something.  In the US, the poor have an unprecedented access to transportation.  They have an unprecedented access to information - virtually all information known to man kind in the palm of their hand.  Most have technology available to them far superior than NASA had in 1969.  This didn't happen because of products and services provided by government.  (Except, of course, the basics like protecting property rights and human rights).  If government can provide better than the market, perhaps the Swedish government should start producing cell phones, automobiles and flat screen TVs.  I personally think they would fail.

Is it "hard" to earn enough money to buy a car?  Yeah, life can be hard sometimes.  My system makes it the least hard for the most people, than any system ever tried.  And, like you said it is not binary.  The more free market we have, the better it will be up to a point far from where we are now.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jzk said:

You haven't really made a point here.  If you know what the fuck you are talking about, then make a case for something. 

If you know what you're talking about, say something other than simpleton slogans

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jzk said:

... In the US, the poor have an unprecedented access to transportation.  ..    ...     ...

Thanks to publicly financed roads and a system of fuel distribution that was almost entirely organized, designed, and capitalized, by the gov't

Thanks also a manufacturing base which counts on the gov't as it's largest single customer, insuring greater economies of scale than would otherwise have taken place

15 minutes ago, jzk said:

...    ...    ... In the US, the poor ... They have an unprecedented access to information - virtually all information known to man kind in the palm of their hand.  Most have technology available to them far superior than NASA had in 1969. ...   .....

Most of which is available thru (again) a network which was originated by, and capitalized by, the gov't.

The technology you're talking about was developed by research funded by the gov't

17 minutes ago, jzk said:

....   ....   ...  This didn't happen because of products and services provided by government.  (Except, of course, the basics like protecting property rights and human rights). ...    ...

No but the specific contracts directing said services (research) and the funds paying for them, came from the gov't

I strongly suggest you read a little more history than whatever chump-ass right-wing bullshit you've been sucking down. I've been polite up until now but you're clueless about how the world you live in came to be.

Knowledge may or may not be power, but mean-spirited and stupid is no way to go thru life

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Thanks to publicly financed roads and a system of fuel distribution that was almost entirely organized, designed, and capitalized, by the gov't

Thanks also a manufacturing base which counts on the gov't as it's largest single customer, insuring greater economies of scale than would otherwise have taken place

Most of which is available thru (again) a network which was originated by, and capitalized by, the gov't.

The technology you're talking about was developed by research funded by the gov't

No but the specific contracts directing said services (research) and the funds paying for them, came from the gov't

I strongly suggest you read a little more history than whatever chump-ass right-wing bullshit you've been sucking down. I've been polite up until now but you're clueless about how the world you live in came to be.

Knowledge may or may not be power, but mean-spirited and stupid is no way to go thru life

-DSK

Nothing about your discourse is polite or knowledgeable.  You attribute the poor's access to current cell phone and internet technology to government spending?  If that is case, then perhaps government should just take over all production of computers and software?  Is that what you think?  Why shouldn't it if socialism is superior to the evil "profit motive?"

Can you even imagine how crappy cell phones would be today without private enterprise?

They would look something like our government run school system.  Or China's pre-1980s communal farming system.  

The bottom line is that in industries where the government is least involved, we have the most innovation and the most access to our poor people.  Government produced 64" LCD 4k tvs for $425?  Not a chance.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Thanks to publicly financed roads and a system of fuel distribution that was almost entirely organized, designed, and capitalized, by the gov't

Thanks also a manufacturing base which counts on the gov't as it's largest single customer, insuring greater economies of scale than would otherwise have taken place

Most of which is available thru (again) a network which was originated by, and capitalized by, the gov't.

The technology you're talking about was developed by research funded by the gov't

No but the specific contracts directing said services (research) and the funds paying for them, came from the gov't

I strongly suggest you read a little more history than whatever chump-ass right-wing bullshit you've been sucking down. I've been polite up until now but you're clueless about how the world you live in came to be.

Knowledge may or may not be power, but mean-spirited and stupid is no way to go thru life

-DSK

This thread shows that there are a lot of people on that particular bus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, jzk said:

Nothing about your discourse is polite or knowledgeable.  ...   ...

 

Ah well, then I might as well stop trying.

When you're as stupid as you appear to be, and determined to remain so, there's no reason to do anything other than mock your stupid opinions.

If you had something to offer, then I'd consider it a conversation. So far, it's just you stubbornly repeating dumbed-down versions of rightie slogans and insisting that I must be advocating for socialism (socialism!!).

Go right ahead and piss away your life running a sweat shop and insisting that your way is the only truth. It's true that money cannot buy happiness but it can make a good down payment -if- you are not steeped in the scorn and spite of everyone you interact with.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
53 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Knowledge may or may not be power, but mean-spirited and stupid is no way to go thru life

 

This thread shows that there are a lot of people on that particular bus.

I guess a lot of people were bullied when young, and too cowardly to stand up for themselves. Instead they daydream of becoming bullies one day.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, by the way, just to light another fire under the anti-government butts.  Al Gore did not invent the internet (something he never claimed, of course), but as a senator he responded to a briefing by those who did invent it (while working on government grants)by promoting funding for its growth and stabiliy as an open public network.  Without which those cheap private enterprise 64” TV screens would be pretty fuckin useless.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Ah well, then I might as well stop trying.

When you're as stupid as you appear to be, and determined to remain so, there's no reason to do anything other than mock your stupid opinions.

If you had something to offer, then I'd consider it a conversation. So far, it's just you stubbornly repeating dumbed-down versions of rightie slogans and insisting that I must be advocating for socialism (socialism!!).

Go right ahead and piss away your life running a sweat shop and insisting that your way is the only truth. It's true that money cannot buy happiness but it can make a good down payment -if- you are not steeped in the scorn and spite of everyone you interact with.

-DSK

What a lame post.  Just rude insults and nothing more.  Typical PA.  

My way is the way of prosperity for the common man.  Your way is the way of misery.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jzk said:

Nothing about your discourse is polite or knowledgeable.  You attribute the poor's access to current cell phone and internet technology to government spending?  If that is case, then perhaps government should just take over all production of computers and software?  Is that what you think?  Why shouldn't it if socialism is superior to the evil "profit motive?"

Can you even imagine how crappy cell phones would be today without private enterprise?

They would look something like our government run school system.  Or China's pre-1980s communal farming system.  

The bottom line is that in industries where the government is least involved, we have the most innovation and the most access to our poor people.  Government produced 64" LCD 4k tvs for $425?  Not a chance.

 

Can you imagine how crappy they'd be without microprocessors?  Digital cameras?  Touchscreens?  The Internet? GPS?  Google's search engine?  Weather satellites?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You see folks, the reason lefties fight for the underdog (and other dogs too) is that they have a sense 

that we are all in this thing together. Here she is taking a much-needed step in Congress. 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/12/05/time-walk-walk-ocasio-cortez-announces-least-15-wage-interns

Many of my former students got caught up in that rotten "work for nuttin" DC intern system. 

Thanks AO-C !!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, jzk said:

...

My way is the way of prosperity for the common man.  Your way is the way of misery.   

Hey SailBlue, just think.... you hit "like" for a guy who (unwittingly, I'd bet) is using one of Pol Pot's favorite slogans

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Many of my former students got caught up in that rotten "work for nuttin" DC intern system. 

Even the staffers don't get paid much and DC is very expensive. You can look their salaries up on Legistorm. Dirt. So when lobbyists show up who will take them out to lunch and offer them their next job, who's gonna get their call returned? On the other end of the spectrum, who's going to take these jobs? People who don't need $15/hr because they have Daddy's credit card.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Figures you'd know Pol Pot's favorite slogans 

Nice comeback

Not a fan, I just happen to read a lot of history.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, frenchie said:

Can you imagine how crappy they'd be without microprocessors?  Digital cameras?  Touchscreens?  The Internet? GPS?  Google's search engine?  Weather satellites?

 

Yes, there would be no microprocessors, touchscreen or internet without government.  That is your position?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, jzk said:

Yes, there would be no microprocessors, touchscreen or internet without government.  That is your position?

 

Yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, frenchie said:

 

Yes.

So then, all of civilization can thank the US Government for microprocessors, the touchscreen and the internet?  Without the US Government, none of that stuff could have ever been possible?  That is your position?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, VOA said:

70% of the people where I live don’t have electricity or connectivity. I’m sure you just made that stat up. Please provide a cite

Where do you live, Alabama?

 Hell, even here in cow country North Florida we have cell service, and electricalmisery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, jzk said:

So then, all of civilization can thank the US Government for microprocessors, the touchscreen and the internet?  Without the US Government, none of that stuff could have ever been possible?  That is your position?

Yes, all of civilization can thank the US Government for a lot of stuff.  First transistor and the first microprocessor invented by DARPA scientists.  The touch screen started by Bell Labs then developed by Xerox with government funding (where Bill Gates saw it, along with the mouse). The internet started as a computer connection system between government grant-funded research, the ARPANET.  

What is your point?  That government never does anything good?  Or that you just like losing on the internet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Left Shift said:

Yes, all of civilization can thank the US Government for a lot of stuff.  First transistor and the first microprocessor invented by DARPA scientists.  The touch screen started by Bell Labs then developed by Xerox with government funding (where Bill Gates saw it, along with the mouse). The internet started as a computer connection system between government grant-funded research, the ARPANET.  

What is your point?  That government never does anything good?  Or that you just like losing on the internet.

My point is that the government is not necessary for these things.  Certainly, if the government spends trillions of dollars, it is bound to trip over an occasional gem.  But it is not necessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Yes, all of civilization can thank the US Government for a lot of stuff.  First transistor and the first microprocessor invented by DARPA scientists.  The touch screen started by Bell Labs then developed by Xerox with government funding (where Bill Gates saw it, along with the mouse). The internet started as a computer connection system between government grant-funded research, the ARPANET.  

What is your point?  That government never does anything good?  Or that you just like losing on the internet.

He's asserting his primacy in the coming idiocracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Where do you live, Alabama?

 Hell, even here in cow country North Florida we have cell service, and electricalmisery.

My nephew, working on delivering cell-phone based healthcare networks in rural Rwanda maybe fifteen years ago, has a favorite picture he shot of a 6-year old Rwandan girl.  She's standing barefoot  on a dirt street in front of a thatched roof house calling her mom on her cell-phone to tell her she was going to be late.  

I would hope that North Florida is more advanced than backwoods Rwanda, but maybe not.  

image.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

My nephew, working on delivering cell-phone based healthcare networks in rural Rwanda maybe fifteen years ago, has a favorite picture he shot of a 6-year old Rwandan girl.  She's standing barefoot  on a dirt street in front of a thatched roof house calling her mom on her cell-phone to tell her she was going to be late.  

I would hope that North Florida is more advanced than backwoods Rwanda, but maybe not.  

image.png

That doesn't have shit to do with politics.

Not having a wired infrastructure made it a lot easier for wireless infrastructure to get embedded in a country.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, VOA said:

PNG. 

Papua New Guinea I presume.  A recognized bell-weather of cutting-edge technology adoption

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, VOA said:

70% of the people where I live don’t have electricity or connectivity. I’m sure you just made that stat up. Please provide a cite

you don't need home electricity to own a phone grumpy. if you care - smartphone stats in the beginning of a benedict evans presentation. Other numbers for smartphones are 66%, whatever the exact number - it's not a minority anymore.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

That doesn't have shit to do with politics.

Not having a wired infrastructure made it a lot easier for wireless infrastructure to get embedded in a country.

 

In Rwanda, it has to do with a government (once the truly evil Idi Amin was ousted) that wanted to move forward and found healthcare and communications was a way that a difference could be made in people's lives.  Gee...health care and technology and government.  Not such a strange brew.

The reason it is easier to introduce wireless without a wired infrastructure is that the communications companies want to write off their investment in the wires.  And the government is less incentivized to take the lead when a service is already provided.  Witness the struggle to replace the US health insurance system with a real health care delivery system.  

 Or you can wait, like Bosnia, until the civil war tears down all the wires to make shell casings.  Bosnia ended up with a pretty good phone system, which was started by the UN, the Red Cross and the Red Crescent (with a boost by the Gates Foundation) as part of refugee relief and family reunification.  They handed out cell phones to the refugees.  Now why didn't ICE think of that when they separate families? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, VOA said:

You had to google it, didn’t you. Missy jobs stated that 90% of adults have a cell or smart phone. I think he made that stat up

I think you don't give a fuck, you are just doing this because you are an angry little troll. now do fuck off and play with the other stupid angry rightwing trolls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

In Rwanda, it has to do with a government (once the truly evil Idi Amin was ousted) that wanted to move forward and found healthcare and communications was a way that a difference could be made in people's lives.  Gee...health care and technology and government.  Not such a strange brew.

The reason it is easier to introduce wireless without a wired infrastructure is that the communications companies want to write off their investment in the wires.  And the government is less incentivized to take the lead when a service is already provided.  Witness the struggle to replace the US health insurance system with a real health care delivery system.  

 Or you can wait, like Bosnia, until the civil war tears down all the wires to make shell casings.  Bosnia ended up with a pretty good phone system, which was started by the UN, the Red Cross and the Red Crescent (with a boost by the Gates Foundation) as part of refugee relief and family reunification.  They handed out cell phones to the refugees.  Now why didn't ICE think of that when they separate families? 

I'm pretty Sure Idi Amin was in Uganda, not Rwanda.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, VOA said:

You had to google it, didn’t you. Missy jobs stated that 90% of adults have a cell or smart phone. I think he made that stat up

No, I didn't.  I had to think for a bit, but no Google involved.  

That number is certainly seems accurate if you are talking access to a cell phone.  My family runs a company that works with governments and NGOs in such "shithole" places as Peru, Indonesia, Iraq, Rwanda and others to set up rural cell networks.  Ergo the photo mentioned above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

My nephew, working on delivering cell-phone based healthcare networks in rural Rwanda ten years ago has a favorite picture he shot of a 6-year old Rwandan girl wearing just shorts, standing barefoot on a dirt street in front of a thatched roof house calling her mom on her cell-phone to tell her she was going to be late.  

I would hope that North Florida is more advanced than backwoods Rwanda, but maybe not.  

Generally speaking, the 6 y/o girls around here wear shirts and at least flip flops while dialing their cell phones.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mrleft8 said:

I'm pretty Sure Idi Amin was in Uganda, not Rwanda.....

You are right.  Mixed up the story my sister told my about flopping on to Idi Amins monstrous bed in his old palace - as a lark - when she was there last yea, working in both Rwanda and Uganda.  Never been there myself.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Generally speaking, the 6 y/o girls around here wear shirts and at least flip flops while dialing their cell phones.

 

But no pants?  And...probably a flip phone though, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

No, I didn't.  I had to think for a bit, but no Google involved.  

That number is certainly seems accurate if you are talking access to a cell phone.  My family runs a company that works with governments and NGOs in such "shithole" places as Peru, Indonesia, Iraq, Rwanda and others to set up rural cell networks.  Ergo the photo mentioned above.

Over 5 billion mobile connections in the world now, ~5.6 billion adults. other than grumpy being... grumpy, not much point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, VOA said:

70% of the people where I live don’t have electricity or connectivity. I’m sure you just made that stat up. Please provide a cite

Nah, they do. They just tell you they don't because they don't want to talk to you, either

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

But no pants?  And...probably a flip phone though, right?

I think I have the last flip phone in north Florida.

 Everyone else has "smart phones" that they don't know how to use. I prefer a "dumb phone" that fits my technical abilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, VOA said:

And I have 4. How many do you have? 

1. Why would I need more than one phone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

1. Why would I need more than one phone?

So you can talk to yourself?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jzk said:

That one business failed is no case against business.  Let's say that Chicago shut down its bus system.  Is it really your position that no private companies could step in and provide reliable, low cost transportation that is still affordable?

It would be like a healthcare system without centralized funding or at least an insurance system. The busy routes would be taken over because you can make a profit on them. Less busy routes would not and lots of people would have no access to transportation and could not get to work. I have seen this sort of system in several developing countries I have been to. Spent three winters in Grenada, the privately-run businesses work really quite well on the busy routes (the #1 if you know the island). If you want to get to a more distant spot (as in 10 miles away) there may be a bus every hour or hour and a half. 

Without massive public funding there could never be a subway system. Don't know if you have used the subways in Beijing? They are incredible with over 1200 km of line. China also more high speed rail than the rest of the world combined. The country is a hotbed of private enterprise now but everyone knows that some things have to be done by the government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jzk said:

What a lame post.  Just rude insults and nothing more.  Typical PA.  

My way is the way of prosperity for the common man.  Your way is the way of misery.   

If you have it all worked out I am assuming you are organizing the funding to run for the presidency in 2020.  If the American people could be talked into electing Trump you would have a decent chance I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

If you have it all worked out I am assuming you are organizing the funding to run for the presidency in 2020.  If the American people could be talked into electing Trump you would have a decent chance I think.

A Banana slug has a better chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

It would be like a healthcare system without centralized funding or at least an insurance system. The busy routes would be taken over because you can make a profit on them. Less busy routes would not and lots of people would have no access to transportation and could not get to work. I have seen this sort of system in several developing countries I have been to. Spent three winters in Grenada, the privately-run businesses work really quite well on the busy routes (the #1 if you know the island). If you want to get to a more distant spot (as in 10 miles away) there may be a bus every hour or hour and a half. 

Without massive public funding there could never be a subway system. Don't know if you have used the subways in Beijing? They are incredible with over 1200 km of line. China also more high speed rail than the rest of the world combined. The country is a hotbed of private enterprise now but everyone knows that some things have to be done by the government.

Things like roads and subways have physical constraints such that government use of eminent domain, etc. gives government quite an advantage.  But what physical constraints are there in healthcare other than your feeling that you want to take care of poor people?  And is a nationalized single payer system the only way to take care of poor people?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have your Medicaid scheme to take care of the very poor. It is the social class above the very poor who get screwed ... and I thought we were talking about transportation? Why is it that the so-called commies in China can do a much better job than the free-market Americans. Fly into virtually every airport in China, they are amazing, not like the 1970s relics in the US. If the American system is better it should be better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

A Banana slug has a better chance.

Trump was not called a banana slug that I am aware of, but could have been - there are some similarities - and is now in 1600.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Trump was not called a banana slug that I am aware of, but could have been - there are some similarities - and is now in 1600.

No.... The comparison was a small toadstool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

In Rwanda, it has to do with a government (once the truly evil Idi Amin was ousted) that wanted to move forward and found healthcare and communications was a way that a difference could be made in people's lives.  Gee...health care and technology and government.  Not such a strange brew.

The reason it is easier to introduce wireless without a wired infrastructure is that the communications companies want to write off their investment in the wires.  And the government is less incentivized to take the lead when a service is already provided.  Witness the struggle to replace the US health insurance system with a real health care delivery system.  

 Or you can wait, like Bosnia, until the civil war tears down all the wires to make shell casings.  Bosnia ended up with a pretty good phone system, which was started by the UN, the Red Cross and the Red Crescent (with a boost by the Gates Foundation) as part of refugee relief and family reunification.  They handed out cell phones to the refugees.  Now why didn't ICE think of that when they separate families? 

I guess you don't recall the Rwandan genocides then.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

You have your Medicaid scheme to take care of the very poor. It is the social class above the very poor who get screwed ... and I thought we were talking about transportation? Why is it that the so-called commies in China can do a much better job than the free-market Americans. Fly into virtually every airport in China, they are amazing, not like the 1970s relics in the US. If the American system is better it should be better.

Err wake up USA, that is a fucking great question for the magas to answer, how come the commies are doing it much better for the rank and file and why is that socialist Brits can have a NHS? But if you think about it, thats the way of the 1%ers those ruling elites fly in private jets and can afford the best insurances so they are not affected but such annoyances as terminals, queues, paying for care etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

I guess you don't recall the Rwandan genocides then.

 

I certainly recall them.  One of the most fearful examples of mass hysteria generated by hate-mongering media in recent history.  A single local DJ started spouting hatred and advocating racial cleansing between the Tutsis and the Hutus, who had been at least co-existing for years, and fomented a race war.  100s of thousands of adults and children were killed, often hacked to death.  It is a clear object lesson about the dangerous potential of people like Alec Jones and Infowars.  

Those happened under the previous government which has been dissolved and replaced democratically.  The current government is remarkably stable and serving the Rwandans well.   

Could it happen again?  Maybe.  Could it happen here?  Maybe.  It did 150 years ago and it seems clear that some people wouldn't mind seeing it happen again.  Oh, you proud boys.

Kigali is quite a nice town, worth a visit, according to my sister and nephew.  

 

Screen_Shot_2018-12-05_at_2_46.06_PM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

I certainly recall them.  One of the most fearful examples of mass hysteria generated by hate-mongering media in recent history.  A single local DJ started spouting hatred and advocating racial cleansing between the Tutsis and the Hutus, who had been at least co-existing for years, and fomented a race war.  100s of thousands of adults and children were killed, often hacked to death.  It is a clear object lesson about the dangerous potential of people like Alec Jones and Infowars.  

Those happened under the previous government which has been dissolved and replaced democratically.  The current government is remarkably stable and serving the Rwandans well.   

Could it happen again?  Maybe.  Could it happen here?  Maybe.  It did 150 years ago and it seems clear that some people wouldn't mind seeing it happen again.  Oh, you proud boys.

Kigali is quite a nice town, worth a visit, according to my sister and nephew.  

 

 

All of that wonderful 'rebirth' has taken place with billions of aid pouring into the country.  The demand for those services were met by the international relief agencies and the great new infrastructure created as those agencies demanded better communications.

The Rwandan government had little to do with it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Saorsa said:

All of that wonderful 'rebirth' has taken place with billions of aid pouring into the country.  The demand for those services were met by the international relief agencies and the great new infrastructure created as those agencies demanded better communications.

The Rwandan government had little to do with it.

 

You're the expert.  My information only comes from people who work there, with and for the government.  What do I know.  And that rebirth, after the horrors of the genocide is, in fact apparently pretty wonderful. 

And, no, the agencies were there to provide the communications.  Yes, they benefited from them but the communications were their job.  You really hate it when something governmental goes right, don't you.  

 

And...follow up question...So, do you mean billions like the billions being doled out to US soybean farmers to gloss over tRumpian idiocy in support of demagogic rabble rousing?   

Or a different kind of billions directed at healing the effects of racist demagogic rabble rousing.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

You're the expert.  My information only comes from people who work there, with and for the government.  What do I know.  And that rebirth, after the horrors of the genocide is, in fact apparently pretty wonderful. 

And, no, the agencies were there to provide the communications.  Yes, they benefited from them but the communications were their job.  You really hate it when something governmental goes right, don't you.  

 

And...follow up question...So, do you mean billions like the billions being doled out to US soybean farmers to gloss over tRumpian idiocy in support of demagogic rabble rousing?   

Or a different kind of billions directed at healing the effects of racist demagogic rabble rousing.  

Your sources are folks who are there NOW.  What do soybeans have to do with Rwanda?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, jzk said:

So then, all of civilization can thank the US Government for microprocessors, the touchscreen and the internet?  Without the US Government, none of that stuff could have ever been possible?  That is your position?

I'm not saying it would have been impossible; I'm saying that's how it actually happened.

We MIGHT have ended up getting something like smartphones, eventually... or we might not.  Would have been a totally different path, who knows where it'd end up?

 

7 hours ago, jzk said:

My point is that the government is not necessary for these things.  Certainly, if the government spends trillions of dollars, it is bound to trip over an occasional gem.  But it is not necessary.

Let's hear it.  Tell me how computers could have emerged, and evolved into smartphones, entirely through private enterprise, without any government funding. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

You're the expert.  My information only comes from people who work there, with and for the government.  What do I know.  And that rebirth, after the horrors of the genocide is, in fact apparently pretty wonderful. 

And, no, the agencies were there to provide the communications.  Yes, they benefited from them but the communications were their job.  You really hate it when something governmental goes right, don't you.  

 

And...follow up question...So, do you mean billions like the billions being doled out to US soybean farmers to gloss over tRumpian idiocy in support of demagogic rabble rousing?   

Or a different kind of billions directed at healing the effects of racist demagogic rabble rousing.  

OK, it's a fucking paradise.  At least in the city.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/5-things-to-know-about-rwanda-s-economy/

4. Aid dependence

Foreign aid to Rwanda increased significantly as the country began rebuilding itself after the genocide. A large chunk of government revenues – 30-40% of the budget – still comes from aid.

The World Bank says Rwanda’s economy is vulnerable to fluctuations in foreign aid – growth fell to 4.7% in 2013 after some donors withheld aid over allegations in a 2012 UN report that the government was backing rebels in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

5. From a farming to a knowledge economy?

Currently around 83% of Rwanda's population of 10.5 million live in rural areas and more than 70% of the population still work in subsistence farming. But the government, led by President Paul Kagame, wants to change this.

In the long term, the government aims to transform Rwanda from a low-income agriculture-based economy to a knowledge-based, service-oriented economy with a middle-income status by 2020.

OH, and the cell service https://www.finder.com/best-prepaid-sim-card-rwanda

None of them seem to be the government.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

All of that wonderful 'rebirth' has taken place with billions of aid pouring into the country.  The demand for those services were met by the international relief agencies and the great new infrastructure created as those agencies demanded better communications.

The Rwandan government had little to do with it.

 

I googled.

 

the percentage of Rwandan households with at least one mobile phone skyrocketed from 6.2 per cent in 2006 to 45.2  per cent in 2011. 

https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/64553

Your post-genocide aid workers, complaining about the lack of cellphone coverage... they wait 20-25 years to complain, or what?

Getting your decades mixed up, ya old geezer.

 

Rwanda's just part of a general trend in Africa. 

http://time.com/3770968/rwanda-technology-genocide/

Nothing to do with the massacres, or the aid-flood that followed, TWENTY YEARS EARLIER...
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

OK, it's a fucking paradise.  At least in the city.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/5-things-to-know-about-rwanda-s-economy/

4. Aid dependence

Foreign aid to Rwanda increased significantly as the country began rebuilding itself after the genocide. A large chunk of government revenues – 30-40% of the budget – still comes from aid.

The World Bank says Rwanda’s economy is vulnerable to fluctuations in foreign aid – growth fell to 4.7% in 2013 after some donors withheld aid over allegations in a 2012 UN report that the government was backing rebels in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

5. From a farming to a knowledge economy?

Currently around 83% of Rwanda's population of 10.5 million live in rural areas and more than 70% of the population still work in subsistence farming. But the government, led by President Paul Kagame, wants to change this.

In the long term, the government aims to transform Rwanda from a low-income agriculture-based economy to a knowledge-based, service-oriented economy with a middle-income status by 2020.

OH, and the cell service https://www.finder.com/best-prepaid-sim-card-rwanda

None of them seem to be the government.

Growth “fell” to 4.7%.  Good god almighty....don’t throw me in that briar patch!!!  Trump would bruise his little mushroom over that.

So the US being dominated by MAGA farmers is ok, but Rwanda shouldn’t be rural?  Or what the hell is your point? It’s a small country recovering from a racist’s wet dream of violence and chaos.  

Everything in that report supports what I’ve been saying.  Government engagement in providing services in conjunction with private enterprise stabilizes the economy and society.  And aid can be used strategically and effectively.  

Ocasio is on the right side of history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, frenchie said:

I'm not saying it would have been impossible; I'm saying that's how it actually happened.

That's the problem with all the claims made by free marketeers - they have to work in fantasy because they don't have hard data to work with. There has never been a free market truly free from government interference outside places like Somalia... and boy to they get tetchy when you bring that example up. 

I mean, the same problem exists for those arguing for true socialism too... but none of them around here. Much like "true democracy", no-one with any sense wants a pure system in place because they don't work with real people.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

That's the problem with all the claims made by free marketeers - they have to work in fantasy because they don't have hard data to work with. There has never been a free market truly free from government interference outside places like Somalia... and boy to they get tetchy when you bring that example up. 

I mean, the same problem exists for those arguing for true socialism too... but none of them around here. Much like "true democracy", no-one with any sense wants a pure system in place because they don't work with real people.

What the free marketers can do is point to the amount of innovation directly caused by the free market vs. government.  When government spends trillions on stuff, there are bound to be some things discovered.  

So for microprocessors, what was government's contribution?  What was that of the market?

And the internet?  Someone here really wants to make the case that in a market of free people, standards can't develop for how computers might communicate?   Is that preposterous or what?

Let's keep in mind what the free market is.  It is just free people making stuff, trading with each other and providing services.  If you "let" people be free, they can accomplish all sorts of great things.  But it seems like there are those around here that are afraid of freedom.  They seem to need some one in a parental role telling them what to do.  I am sure the market could provide that need as well.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, frenchie said:

I'm not saying it would have been impossible; I'm saying that's how it actually happened.

We MIGHT have ended up getting something like smartphones, eventually... or we might not.  Would have been a totally different path, who knows where it'd end up?

 

Let's hear it.  Tell me how computers could have emerged, and evolved into smartphones, entirely through private enterprise, without any government funding. 

 

 

 

It is really for you to justify why government is necessary to accomplish those things.  We agree that they are good things for society, and we would like them to occur.  I submit that free people will voluntarily do those things.  It must be your case that people simply won't do such research unless we force them by taking from them and hiring people to do it.  

Or do you think that government should be all powerful and control everything except those things where it can be proven not to be a good idea?

Or do we start out with the people being all powerful with the government limited to those things which we prove are necessary?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, frenchie said:

I googled.

 

the percentage of Rwandan households with at least one mobile phone skyrocketed from 6.2 per cent in 2006 to 45.2  per cent in 2011. 

https://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/read/64553

Your post-genocide aid workers, complaining about the lack of cellphone coverage... they wait 20-25 years to complain, or what?

Getting your decades mixed up, ya old geezer.

 

Rwanda's just part of a general trend in Africa. 

http://time.com/3770968/rwanda-technology-genocide/

Nothing to do with the massacres, or the aid-flood that followed, TWENTY YEARS EARLIER...
 

Way back in post 599, you will see what I was responding to. 

I googled too.  There are three mobile providers in Rwanda.  None of them are from Rwanda.  The contribution of the government has been a willingness to collect license revenue and lease antenna space.  The little girl LS described from 15 years ago had a network because the aid workers established systems well before the 15 years he cited.

 

  •  
  • Saorsa
  • Members
  • 345
  • 33,164 posts
  •  
  •  
21 hours ago, Left Shift said:

My nephew, working on delivering cell-phone based healthcare networks in rural Rwanda maybe fifteen years ago, has a favorite picture he shot of a 6-year old Rwandan girl.  She's standing barefoot  on a dirt street in front of a thatched roof house calling her mom on her cell-phone to tell her she was going to be late.  

I would hope that North Florida is more advanced than backwoods Rwanda, but maybe not.  

image.png

That doesn't have shit to do with politics.

Not having a wired infrastructure made it a lot easier for wireless infrastructure to get embedded in a country.

 



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did we get from "Ocasio" to Rwanda and cell phones?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mrleft8 said:

How did we get from "Ocasio" to Rwanda and cell phones?

free thinking.  or maybe free markets.  something like that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, hermetic said:

free thinking.  or maybe free markets.  something like that

I'm thinking more ADHD.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

How did we get from "Ocasio" to Rwanda and cell phones?

It appears to have started with your personal insult to someone in post 593.

Own it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

It appears to have started with your personal insult to someone in post 593.

Own it.

 

Are you implying that suggesting that living in Alabama is an insult?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mrleft8 said:

Are you implying that suggesting that living in Alabama is an insult?

No but it didn't appear to have any relevance.  So I pushed it a bit further after another irrelevant post.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

No but it didn't appear to have any relevance.  So I pushed it a bit further after another irrelevant post.

 

 

Oh... I see..... Just stirring the pot, eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jzk said:

It is really for you to justify why government is necessary to accomplish those things.  We agree that they are good things for society, and we would like them to occur.  I submit that free people will voluntarily do those things.  It must be your case that people simply won't do such research unless we force them by taking from them and hiring people to do it.  

....    ...

 

1- it's really not a black/white either/or case

2- your suggestion that "free people will voluntarily do those things" is countered by the fact that 2a in all prior human history, they didn't and 2b free people DID do those things by forming an association to govern themselves voluntarily, choosing to be taxed for the benefit of the whole group, said benefit to include scientific research.

Nobody is forcing you to participate. There's this line around the country called a "border." Don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Oh... I see..... Just stirring the pot, eh?

No, responding to foolishness.

As to the relevance of Ocasia, she replaced a long term democrat in a safe seat.  Her position assuages the left wing of the democrat party without having any problems. Whether her own goals are met remains to be seen.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

1- it's really not a black/white either/or case

2- your suggestion that "free people will voluntarily do those things" is countered by the fact that 2a in all prior human history, they didn't and 2b free people DID do those things by forming an association to govern themselves voluntarily, choosing to be taxed for the benefit of the whole group, said benefit to include scientific research.

Nobody is forcing you to participate. There's this line around the country called a "border." Don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out

-DSK

That is not accurate.  Lots of private research, development, and innovation has gone into the computer industry.  That the government threw in a few crumbs is no evidence that government was the only way to get it done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Saorsa said:

No, responding to foolishness.

As to the relevance of Ocasia, she replaced a long term democrat in a safe seat.  Her position assuages the left wing of the democrat party without having any problems. Whether her own goals are met remains to be seen.

 

OK Dabs.... Now take a Geritol, and a nap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, jzk said:

That is not accurate.  Lots of private research, development, and innovation has gone into the computer industry.  That the government threw in a few crumbs is no evidence that government was the only way to get it done.

GPS is a good example of that.  The government invested in a needed navigational system.  The industry that developed from that was private enterprise.

The original GPS system cost 12 Billion, Operating costs including replacements runs at a bit less than 1 Billion.  The GPS industry is about 2 - 3 billion per year and it pays taxes.

The same is true of the post roads required by the Constitution. 

That's the difference between General Welfare and individual.  General Welfare is an enabler for growth.  Individual welfare is a drain on others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jzk said:

That is not accurate.  Lots of private research, development, and innovation has gone into the computer industry.  That the government threw in a few crumbs is no evidence that government was the only way to get it done.

And so far, nobody has claimed "government is the ONLY way to get it done"

Although it would be interesting if you could point to any regions with no gov't that are proving your assertions true..... Somalia has certainly not led the world in scientific research (at least, to my knowledge).

Last time this discussion came up, I learned that gov't funding as a percentage of pure science research in the USA has been dropping. Not sure what this is due to, or what the effect will be.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jzk said:

That is not accurate.  Lots of private research, development, and innovation has gone into the computer industry.  That the government threw in a few crumbs is no evidence that government was the only way to get it done.

People at the Pierce lab might disagree with you..... Yanno..... The people who developed the space suit for the Mercury, and Apollo space missions....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

And so far, nobody has claimed "government is the ONLY way to get it done"

Although it would be interesting if you could point to any regions with no gov't that are proving your assertions true..... Somalia has certainly not led the world in scientific research (at least, to my knowledge).

Last time this discussion came up, I learned that gov't funding as a percentage of pure science research in the USA has been dropping. Not sure what this is due to, or what the effect will be.

-DSK

Not much scientific research coming out of Venezuela or North Korea either. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jzk said:

That is not accurate.  Lots of private research, development, and innovation has gone into the computer industry.  That the government threw in a few crumbs is no evidence that government was the only way to get it done.

Good to know that the internet, the transistor, the microchip, the space program (calculators for instance), gps and satellite communication are a few crumbs.  Now I know the definition of "crumb".  And why so many people think the government is "crumby".  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Good to know that the internet, the transistor, the microchip, the space program (calculators for instance), gps and satellite communication are a few crumbs.  Now I know the definition of "crumb".  And why so many people think the government is "crumby".  

And why so many people think jizkid is a raving idiot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Left Shift said:

Good to know that the internet, the transistor, the microchip, the space program (calculators for instance), gps and satellite communication are a few crumbs.  Now I know the definition of "crumb".  And why so many people think the government is "crumby".  

How much of the internet?  How much of all the microchip development was due to government?  Crumbs.

GPS and satellite communication are substantial government achievements.  No doubt.  Because the government did them, they are right there for us to see.  

Imagine a world where we had no Vietnam, no cold war, no meddling in the middle east, and where people kept a much larger portion of their money.  Is it really possible to say that all of that private investment over the last 100 years would not have produced even more than what the government did?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites