misailor28

Crack above keel joint seeping fluid C&C36

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I looked at a 1978 C&C36 this morning. At the rear of the hull keel joint there is some fluid seeping out that is kind of black.  I’m not sure if it’s bilge oil or wood rot residue.  It’s a few inches above the actual hull keel joint where the keel stub transitions down from the hull form. 

Is this something due to water being trapped and frozen over.  How concerned should one be?  I tapped around the area with a hammer.  Nothing sounded soft or delaminated near by.  

Thanks

 

 

EE503610-2F5F-45C3-BA2D-6051D9B76F0D.jpeg

D1D29040-29EA-44E9-AF4E-A68D90707DE0.jpeg

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I think I'd break out the grinder - that looks nasty.

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1 hour ago, misailor28 said:

I looked at a 1978 C&C36 this morning. ....  How concerned should one be?

If it yours, do as Sloop suggests. If you are considering buying, don't.

Simple, isn't it?

Of course, if the price is good and yopu are very good with angle grinders, grp and all such, then use the info to lower the price even m,ore and then start working. Oh, have a (careful) look inside as well.

 

//J

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That's not good if it is coming above the keel/keel stub joint. 

I'm pretty easy going about lots of slightly dodgy stuff on glass boat structures but that would worry me.

If it's not your boat ("looking over...") I'd just walk away.

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Thanks.   The boat isn’t mine.  The asking price is about $10k.  I’m fairly handy with glass work.  The price would have to get a lot lower.  I’m also concerned the bottom paint is chipped off the keel joint the entire way around the keel.  The owner hasn’t had the keel dropped and rebedded the paint gap isn’t from a repair being done. 

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1 hour ago, misailor28 said:

Thanks.   The boat isn’t mine.  The asking price is about $10k.  I’m fairly handy with glass work.  The price would have to get a lot lower.  I’m also concerned the bottom paint is chipped off the keel joint the entire way around the keel.  The owner hasn’t had the keel dropped and rebedded the paint gap isn’t from a repair being done. 

That's pretty standard on a lot of C&C's, it's the "Smile". The fairing compound only lasts so long in that join, and the keel bolts need to be retorqued occasionally. I would certainly have a look at the bilge on the inside. A good survey would be mandatory.

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

That's pretty standard on a lot of C&C's, it's the "Smile". The fairing compound only lasts so long in that join, and the keel bolts need to be retorqued occasionally. I would certainly have a look at the bilge on the inside. A good survey would be mandatory.

Same deal with the Catalina smile?  A guy from work bought a 30 footer this summer and a crappy pic seemed to show a faint crack in the same area.  I saw the pic well after he bought it and didn't want to ruin the honeymoon phase.  Almost sounds like it's just high mileage maintenance, no?

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The colour of the liquid is important.  If it is brown, it may indicate that a keel bolt has lost the corrosion battle.  If so, the only way to find out for sure might be dropping the keel off the stub to have a look at the bolts.  I'd have a really good look at the bolts from the inside, perhaps removing the nut on the aft bolt to see if the shaft is intact.  

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15 minutes ago, dash34 said:

The colour of the liquid is important.  If it is brown, it may indicate that a keel bolt has lost the corrosion battle.  If so, the only way to find out for sure might be dropping the keel off the stub to have a look at the bolts.  I'd have a really good look at the bolts from the inside, perhaps removing the nut on the aft bolt to see if the shaft is intact.  

The liquid was more black colored then brown.   The area seeping colored liquid was at the bottom of the hull about 6 inches above the hull keel joint at the very rear of the keel.  Nothing was leaking from the hull keel joint itself.  In the second image you can see the flow path down the keel over the joint from where it’s coming from.  I’ve seen Catalina smile on a boat I had before.  I haven’t seen the hull leaking out above the hull keel joint before which was why I asked in here.

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Looks very unusual. It could be a pocket of failed filler, or it could be a major repair. Black is not a good sign, I'd keep looking.

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I keep coming back to oil seeping through a crack in the laminate. Isn't the engine above that area of seepage?

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20 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I keep coming back to oil seeping through a crack in the laminate. Isn't the engine above that area of seepage?

No, the engine is much further (like 5') back.

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4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I keep coming back to oil seeping through a crack in the laminate. Isn't the engine above that area of seepage?

 

3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

No, the engine is much further (like 5') back.

It is well know that fluids on a boat don't have a problem with flowing upwards (as in uphill) and for surprisingly long distances. If oil, then easily detected by the OP, and as he hasn't reported such then .... maybe not.

In any case, not a good sign. Needs some considerable work, but then again, not impossible for a happy guy. Will test the nerves, as one is cutting through more and more :) . We all know how it is, a small sign on the surface and when digging in one finds more and more that has to be taken away.

Was it in this thread it was said to look in the bilge? And a careful look at the frames and stringers? One should do that.

Usually I am not a friend of shouting about dropping the keel, but the combo of nasty black fluid, a clear damage represented by a crack and 40 years of age ... then I would consider it, certainly  budget if I was just thinking of buying.

It is quite clear that this is not a case of just a simple repair, ½ hour with the angle grinder and then some glass + polyesther.  This repair will take days or even weeks.

//J

 

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That looks like history of a past grounding that rocked the keel.  I had the exact same problem on my J/30.  I ended up grinding it out and building up the laminate again to fix it.  The laminate at the centerline by the low spot was wet and had no structural strength.  I cut out the outer skin and ground out the laminate, then rebuilt the area. Check out this link with photos throughout the repair.  There are comments with each photo.

Before repair:

0KWVA6vrUJUbirSwA-gsUX1yBoNjay_mUF_JUo8i

Dring repair:

m32SCF-7nxpVfOt0si96oJPp8zU8g16jRGOcBzLN

 

After repair:

9UVpERZXXUGXDOLhHnkpVxBc4H0O7HjpD0YoJVAB

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1 hour ago, WHK said:

That looks like history of a past grounding that rocked the keel.  I had the exact same problem on my J/30.  I ended up grinding it out and building up the laminate again to fix it.  The laminate at the centerline by the low spot was wet and had no structural strength.  I cut out the outer skin and ground out the laminate, then rebuilt the area. Check out this link with photos throughout the repair.  There are comments with each photo.

Before repair:

0KWVA6vrUJUbirSwA-gsUX1yBoNjay_mUF_JUo8i

Dring repair:

m32SCF-7nxpVfOt0si96oJPp8zU8g16jRGOcBzLN

 

After repair:

9UVpERZXXUGXDOLhHnkpVxBc4H0O7HjpD0YoJVAB

neat. I notice you had to cut rather deep, which is what I would expect.

Did you just fill out or did you also some tapering - in such a large repair it is discussable if (extensive) tapering is necessary, loads are distributed anyhow.

Did you have any such strange liquid seeping out ?

Guess your boat is well maintained and all that, whereas the boat the OP looked at  ... could be anything. God only knows how long it was in the water with that damage.

//J

 

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If you're really interested, tell the owner to drop the keel at his expense and that you'll pay the 10k less the cost of repairs once the extent is clear.

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how many boats have you looked at in your search? I'm sure there are many more out there of a similar ilk, that could be had for similar $ with a lot less obvious needed repair.. Iff'n it was me, with my experience buying many boats over the years, I'd keep looking.    happy hunting

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A strange reaction from someone with your name.

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19 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

how many boats have you looked at in your search? I'm sure there are many more out there of a similar ilk, that could be had for similar $ with a lot less obvious needed repair.. Iff'n it was me, with my experience buying many boats over the years, I'd keep looking.    happy hunting

I’m up to somewhere around 15-20 boats this time.  I’m walking away from this one since I’m not sure free isn’t still too much.  I’ll continue looking in the spring.

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hehehe

edit: btw, the giggle was aimed at Sloop.

keep looking throughout the winter as well mate.

Interiors reveal their secrets after a couple days of rain, exteriors in sunlight.

 

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40 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

hehehe

edit: btw, the giggle was aimed at Sloop.

keep looking throughout the winter as well mate.

Interiors reveal their secrets after a couple days of rain, exteriors in sunlight.

 

I watch but I’m in Michigan.   Most boats are shrink wrapped away in winter storage now.  Nothing much comes on the market until around March after winter is past and people start thinking about spring prep.  I’ve had a bunch of boats in the past.  We took a 2 year break boat break while getting out of our old house and finding another one.

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6 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

neat. I notice you had to cut rather deep, which is what I would expect.

Did you just fill out or did you also some tapering - in such a large repair it is discussable if (extensive) tapering is necessary, loads are distributed anyhow.

Did you have any such strange liquid seeping out ?

Guess your boat is well maintained and all that, whereas the boat the OP looked at  ... could be anything. God only knows how long it was in the water with that damage.

//J

 

I too had brown liquid dripping from the crack and it smelled terrible.  The balsa area was beveled and faired on the outer skin.  The center 8" was built up with solid laminat as per the original construction.

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Hit the bricks, keel structure let go, laminate cracked, water intrusion from inside out/outside in and colour obtained anything from dirty bilge, oxidation in keel top/fixings through to decomposition of resins etc. 

Common outcome in production boats utilising a pan/hull structure that has failed and many the subject of a quick and dirty cosmetic cover up without dropping the keel but just hiding the issue for a while. After a while the keel may fall off after another grounding/shit conditions or may stay OK forever.

Probably the best known instance of the former was the Cheeki Rafiki, a Bénéteau First 40.7 going tits up mid Atlantic in 2014 losing all the crew. The dark colour you see in the busted laminate on the keel centreline in this pic also corresponds to the location of a bilge sump cast into the top of the keel.

images (81).jpeg

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1 hour ago, WHK said:

I too had brown liquid dripping from the crack and it smelled terrible.  The balsa area was beveled and faired on the outer skin.  The center 8" was built up with solid laminat as per the original construction.

If that was a "styrene" smell not "organic" then under pressure water has caused decomposition of resin aka osmosis. 

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I had some of this around the joint of the keel stub the hull on my boat.  Not nearly as much fluid at that.  But it was water in the laminate.  Yard ground it down and put in new glass.  Wasn't that big of a deal and didn't cost all that much, maybe like $1k.  Been three years and I see no sign of any damage in the paint in that area, which is what I noticed originally.

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like what most folks said. Not too serious I think. If you get the boat probably explore and grind chip away the bad stuff. Let dry then patch with structural (i.e kevlar thickened) wet surface epoxy paste (ie wet dry 700 epoxy) - avoid 'filler' epoxy putty like splash zone a-788 or 'regular' epoxy thickened with microballoons (no strength)

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On 11/24/2018 at 2:09 PM, WHK said:

I too had brown liquid dripping from the crack and it smelled terrible. 

Well, it's been 4 days and no-one has touched this one so.......

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Well, it's been 4 days and no-one has touched this one so.......

I was trying to take the high ground.

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