captain_crunch

When good designers produce ugly boats.

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10 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

We’re any of the Grampains designed by any “good”designers? I don’t recall seeing any that I liked and I saw many of them in the Florida Keys for some reason.

S&S designed one of the early ones - the Classic 37 IIRC

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:
 
Quote

 

10 hours ago, southerncross said:

I'll toss in Lapworth's Cal 46.  I've read rave revues about its offshore cruising ability. 

 

Lapworth had one as his personal boat.

'Nuff said.

Pretty big difference between the drawing and the picture with that dodger upon a dodger layer cake thing going on.

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10 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

We’re any of the Grampains designed by any “good”designers? I don’t recall seeing any that I liked and I saw many of them in the Florida Keys for some reason.

The Classic 37 is an S&S designed Grampian.  Not sure how many were built.  This is hull #8, built in '68.

20181017_115104.jpg

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56 minutes ago, Jammer Six said:

God, that's ugly. You'd have to wait for dark and read the lights to figure out which way it's going.

Time for cataract surgery, dimlighter.

That there is a beauty.

 

dogballs Tom : bumping heads below decks made for some of the prettiest boats of the 20th century. 

That, and long overhangs. Practicality aside

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I typed in dogballs and it came up as dogballs. Don’t know why . Tried to fix  it 3 times. 

Point twenty two shows up as dogballs again. What did you do to earn this Tom?!

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10 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I typed in dogballs and it came up as dogballs. Don’t know why . Tried to fix  it 3 times. 

Point twenty two shows up as dogballs again. What did you do to earn this Tom?!

The same reason I have him on ignore. He never shuts up about his fucking dogballs in PA, the mods got sick of it and there you go.

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42 minutes ago, AlR said:

Have you ever seen such cruelty?

valiant39-oceanexplorer-starboardquarter.jpg

With an ass end based on the shape of a beach ball you would think it couldn't get worse.  Here's the original bow on this turd of a design.  

Look daddy, I have more spring to the sheer than anyone else.  More must be better.  Right?  Not to mention my funky cabin shape doesn't fit this thing at all.

Sails so poorly we had to add a 2 foot bowsprit to get the thing to somewhat balance.

Total waste of materials.

6072003_20170116145448227_1_LARGE.jpg

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

I typed in dogballs and it came up as dogballs. Don’t know why . Tried to fix  it 3 times. 

Point twenty two shows up as dogballs again. What did you do to earn this Tom?!

I type in 22 caliber and it usually stays as such

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44 minutes ago, AlR said:

---spewing---

 

You really have a hardon for Bob, don't you? Got enough guts to say who you really are?

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26 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You really have a hardon for Bob, don't you? Got enough guts to say who you really are?

You could try to shave that thing's ass and teach it to sail backward.  It wouldn't help.

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Air is just another jealous wannabe. I have gathered a bunch of them. Personal issues. Not my problem. It comes with the territory.

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6 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Air is just another jealous wannabe. I have gathered a bunch of them. Personal issues. Not my problem. It comes with the territory.

I am not perfect.  But I didn't draw those hideous things.  Can't really even call them boats.  Even you can't defend that shit.

Might be fun to delve into even more of your hits.  Can't wait to hear more of your alcoholic ranting.

 

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2 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Time for cataract surgery, dimlighter.

That there is a beauty.

It ain't his eyes that are the problem.

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Is AIR a new sock of BS trying to get around the ban?

He's definitely a sock - maybe J6?

"We were so incompetent at trimming the main that we had to add a bowsprit".

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Sorry you are so upset air. Can't imagine  what I did to you that got you so upset.  You are sounding like you have some severe issues. Can't help you there.

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18 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Is AIR a new sock of BS trying to get around the ban?

He's definitely a sock - maybe J6?

"We were so incompetent at trimming the main that we had to add a bowsprit".

You are a dummy.  How Bob's pee pee taste?

The Esprit 37 added a 2 foot bowsprit to make it balance.  It was renamed the Esprit 39.

At least this time the mediocre designer didn't have to put on a forward raking keel to balance the boat, or add 600+ pounds to the aft locker to get it to float on it's lines.

 

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20 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Sorry you are so upset air. Can't imagine  what I did to you that got you so upset.  You are sounding like you have some severe issues. Can't help you there.

 Yes, issues.  You keep white knuckling there Bob.  That's an issue.

Knowing my comments make you want to reach for that bottle makes me smile.

Didn't you once claim you had me on ignore?

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2 minutes ago, AlR said:

You are a dummy.  How Bob's pee pee taste?

Really?

I wish we could block 9 year old boys from posting... 

 

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3 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

Really?

I wish we could block 9 year old boys from posting... 

 

You obviously didn't get the reference.

You could put me on ignore, like Bob.

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1 minute ago, AlR said:

You obviously didn't get the reference.

You could put me on ignore, like Bob.

No I'd rather read your posts and know you're a cunt.

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7 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

No I'd rather read your posts and know you're a cunt.

Look at the tough guy White Knight.  A White Knight for a White Knuckler.

Do you do the Andy Kaufman thing, standing next to the record player and lip synching, "Here I come to save the day..."

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3 minutes ago, AlR said:

Look at the tough guy White Knight.  A White Knight for a White Knuckler.

Do you do the Andy Kaufman thing, standing next to the record player and lip synching, "Here I come to save the day..."

Nup... still don't care.

 

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1 minute ago, Jammer Six said:

If I needed a sock, you'd know it was my sock.

Well that's not really the point of a sock, but anywaaaaay...

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I know there are a lot of fans of the Tanzers, but I have always found them ugly to my eye.  Even as a kid, I didn't like them.

Tanzer 22

Image result for tanzer 22

 

Tanzer 26:

Image result for tanzer 26

 

and the updated version:

Image result for tanzer 26

 

Tanzer 28:

Image result for tanzer 28

 

The Tanzer 29/31 is one of the rare models that actually look good.

Image result for tanzer 29

 

 

 

 

 

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I didn't mind the 22 so much, it served it's purpose. The rest of the line is not particularly attractive.

However, this is one ugly boat in a career thread, not a career of ugly boats.

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1 hour ago, Jammer Six said:

I can.

Let's have a thread where we make fun of designers' work.  But one designer is off limits.  The one designer who has made a career off of critiquing the work of his superiors.

Some pigs are more equal than others.

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1 hour ago, Trickypig said:

No I'd rather read your posts and know you're a cunt.

He's not good enough to be a cunt.

Just a 12 year old trying to play with the big boys.

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1 hour ago, Jammer Six said:

Oh, it would be for me. It's not enough that you read it. You need to know that I said it. If you need a sock to hide who you are, then have a seat. You probably prefer blondes.

Never mind.

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5 hours ago, AlR said:

Look at the tough guy White Knight.  A White Knight for a White Knuckler.

Do you do the Andy Kaufman thing, standing next to the record player and lip synching, "Here I come to save the day..."

Does your mother know you are using the Internet?

 

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6 hours ago, AlR said:

Let's have a thread where we make fun of designers' work.  But one designer is off limits.  The one designer who has made a career off of critiquing the work of his superiors.

Some pigs are more equal than others.

No problem. You’re just a fuckhead. We can read past your shit. 

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7 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

I know there are a lot of fans of the Tanzers, but I have always found them ugly to my eye.  Even as a kid, I didn't like them.

Tanzer 22

Image result for tanzer 22

 

Tanzer 26:

Image result for tanzer 26

 

and the updated version:

Image result for tanzer 26

 

Tanzer 28:

Image result for tanzer 28

 

The Tanzer 29/31 is one of the rare models that actually look good.

Image result for tanzer 29

 

 

 

 

 

I think you and Ish are both right and all but that last one deserve the attention of the Society.

I see them being used and enjoyed a lot and don't see them at docks that much, so that's Admirable.

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54 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

 

I thought I was the only one who sailed with a bumper hanging off the transom!

Boat looks very powerful.

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13 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Lapworth had one as his personal boat.

I was aware. But fitting to the title of the thread IMO.

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Unread the last post I made. I don’t have a hydro generator on my boat yet...

8FED456D-18D9-4923-8A7B-6E58D56F765E.jpeg

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2 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

I think you and Ish are both right and all but that last one deserve the attention of the Society.

I see them being used and enjoyed a lot and don't see them at docks that much, so that's Admirable.

the question with respect to this thread is whether Johann was a good designer.  as far as i know, Tanzer designed the early boats that he built and none of them were particularly good looking.  the T22 and T28 were certainly homely...but i think they had good personalities  :>)

the 29 and a 25 ( and or a 27?) were from a french designer not Johann, i believe.  it was just after they put these in production that a bank called their loan and shut them down.

 

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9 hours ago, AlR said:

Let's have a thread where we make fun of designers' work.  But one designer is off limits.  The one designer who has made a career off of critiquing the work of his superiors.

Some pigs are more equal than others.

You're a struggling boat designer, aren't you. Bad review, probably...am I right?

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50 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Unread the last post I made. I don’t have a hydro generator on my boat yet...

8FED456D-18D9-4923-8A7B-6E58D56F765E.jpeg

LOL, I was wondering who was going to say it or if you would pick up on it.  I am curious about the reliability and efficiency of the hydros.  On a multi solar is the obvious and easy answer but on a mono maybe you just can't hang enough panels and the hydros work well.  But just thought (in ignorance) that wind would have been better but clearly not the trend...

 

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Beer:

Yes, I think what you saw as a "bumper" was really the starboard Watt&Sea unit.

I am seeing posts of those I have on ignore when you quote them. That's fine. I find them entertaining.

As for: " But one designer is off limits"  For years I have been regularly raked over the coals here. I like it. It makes for a fun thread. I can support what I do. But i think this idea that I am sacrosanct is more a slam on other members here like saying "you can't think for yourselves". I know better. Makes no difference. The haters can produce nothing of value so they talk the hate game. It's all they have.

Got a nice email from an editor at the Japanese magazine KAZI this morning. They want to do a feature on the carbon cutters. I like that.

Wess:

The Watt&Sea units have been in use for quite a while and are popular with long distance race boats that don't want to carry large battery banks. They are beautifully designed and they stay aligned with the water flow of the transom. They are interesting to watch and they are seldom parallel. We have only mucked around with them so far but at 9 knots with both units deployed we got 20 amps. That was enough to power all the instruments we had running that day. We did not notice any drop in boat speed when both were deployed. There has to be some drag but it apparently not much.

 

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16 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Carbon cutter No. 2 on it's 2nd outing.

 

Not sure she belongs in this thread, but if you insist.

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Monsoon:  

Sure it belongs here. With this audience someone is bound to find it ugly.

I just want you to know that I really appreciate your posts.  I always find your posts interesting and have learned a lot from them.  Thank you for being here and putting up with the abuse.

 

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1 hour ago, chester said:

the question with respect to this thread is whether Johann was a good designer.  as far as i know, Tanzer designed the early boats that he built and none all of them were particularly good looking butt ugly.  the T22 and T28 were certainly homely...but i think they had good personalities  :>)

FIFY.

To his credit though, they were pretty well built - lots of them still sailing around here.

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11 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

I know there are a lot of fans of the Tanzers, but I have always found them ugly to my eye.  Even as a kid, I didn't like them.

Tanzer 22

Image result for tanzer 22

It's ugly, but I see the point of it.

The "side decks" on my Catalina 22 are fecking useless, I always walk forward on the cabin top anyway. Why not extend the cabin all the way to the edge?

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C&C has always built really sharp looking boats. While not entirely designed by C&C, the MEGA was certainly an ugly duck.690270590_1280px-CC_Mega_30_One_Design_sailboat_Eau!_Mega_1730.thumb.jpg.e1ee9b30cf0cc8a452e4e905638eccae.jpg

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Bacco:

I think the MEGA was way ahead of it';s time in several areas. It was not a very good sailing boat and that would have hurt its chances in the market. They sure as hell promoted the project extensively. They do make great power skiffs!

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

Bacco:

I think the MEGA was way ahead of it';s time in several areas. It was not a very good sailing boat and that would have hurt its chances in the market. They sure as hell promoted the project extensively. They do make great power skiffs!

Agreed. The MEGA actually got better looking when it was turned into the Putt Putt.

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10 minutes ago, 'Bacco said:

C&C has always built really sharp looking boats. While not entirely designed by C&C, the MEGA was certainly an ugly duck.

Unusual, but not ugly. One should distinglish between these.

If you took a modern beautiful sail boat (whatever) and transported it back 100 years most at that time would call it ugly just because it was unusual to them.

I like the Mega as it is unique in some ways. Always liked it.

//J

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Even the greats get it wrong ocasionally

S&S   She 32C   bit wierd with the clipper bow and the pinched stern. I guess Olin was on holiday.

14265_image_main_1600.jpg

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Monsoon:  

Sure it belongs here. With this audience someone is bound to find it ugly.

I dont like the split cabin trunk, but I wouldn't put it in the ugly category.

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Maui: The split cabin trunk is just a styling thing going back to the BCC's and something the client liked. It plays hell with the layout. But it makes for a handy clear area at the foot of the mast for lines and gear. I like the look but if it were my own boat I would not do it/ Too much compromise on the layout I would want. On the carbon cutters layout it works just fine.

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2 hours ago, chester said:

the question with respect to this thread is whether Johann was a good designer.  as far as i know, Tanzer designed the early boats that he built and none of them were particularly good looking.  the T22 and T28 were certainly homely...but i think they had good personalities  :>)

the 29 and a 25 ( and or a 27?) were from a french designer not Johann, i believe.  it was just after they put these in production that a bank called their loan and shut them down.

 

Tanzer Industries started out producing designs of founder Johann Tanzer, (14, 16, 22, 7.5, 26, and 28, and 8.5 were all variations on a similar theme), but later on went with name-brand designers for some of their offerings:

The 25 and 29 were Joubert/Nivelt designs; the 25 in particular is a pretty decent sailing boat if a little too powered-up for it's intended use.

The 10.5 was a Dick Carter design with a centre cockpit, pilothouse, and funky lifting keel/rudder mechanisms.

The 27 was a re-jigged O'Day 26, designed by Raymond Hunt.

The 31 was designed by C&C.

All except the 27 were designs commissioned by Tanzer for their own production.

My parent's first keelboat was a T22, #58 bought new in 1971, the second T22 on Lake Ontario, and the first to be fitted with three windows per side (my mom asked Johann what he could do to lighten up the v-berth)!  The boat was and remains a decent little performer, with lots of interior, deck, and cockpit space for 22'.  Not a classic looker, but gets the job done pretty effectively.

Cheers!

 

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1 hour ago, 'Bacco said:

C&C has always built really sharp looking boats. While not entirely designed by C&C, the MEGA was certainly an ugly duck.690270590_1280px-CC_Mega_30_One_Design_sailboat_Eau!_Mega_1730.thumb.jpg.e1ee9b30cf0cc8a452e4e905638eccae.jpg

Bob said it - the Mega was a design with many features that were ahead of it's time.  Also pretty unfortunate it ended up being a "design-by-committee" so the bits and pieces and intended purposes didn't gel all that well in execution.

I raced against one on Lake Simcoe in the early 2000s that got frankenboated with the eliptical keel from an Andrews MORC 30.  Took a 12 second hit in PHRF and the boat ended up bow-down so lost some of her offwind abilities, but upwind, she didn't lie down on her side and die until 15 knots true (as opposed to 8 knots true for the original design).

Cheers!

 

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57 minutes ago, CriticalPath said:

The 31 was designed by C&C.

Correction, but too late to edit the original post...  George Cuthbertson alone designed the 31...

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William Shaw's designs for Pearson were not as pretty as Pearson's earlier designs by Carl Alberg, William Tripp, and Philip Rhodes, but most of them were still fairly handsome.  I have a friend with a Pearson 35 and another friend who started with a Pearson Vanguard and now has a Pearson 365.  They are good looking boats.  I can understand that it is very difficult to make an attractive center cockpit boat with a through passage under the cockpit seats.  That was probably the main problem with the Chris Craft Caribbean, and it also was a problem with William Shaw's Pearson 419.  The Pearson 390 was even worse, and I don't believe it even had a through passage under the cockpit.

 

william_shaw_pearson_419_photo.jpg

william_shaw_pearson_390_photo.jpg

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1 hour ago, Whinging Pom said:

Even the greats get it wrong ocasionally

S&S   She 32C   bit wierd with the clipper bow and the pinched stern. I guess Olin was on holiday.

14265_image_main_1600.jpg

Are you saying this came from Olin Stephen's design office?

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

As for: " But one designer is off limits"  For years I have been regularly raked over the coals here. I like it. It makes for a fun thread. I can support what I do. But i think this idea that I am sacrosanct is more a slam on other members here like saying "you can't think for yourselves". I know better. Makes no difference. The haters can produce nothing of value so they talk the hate game. It's all they have.

Apparently people who are utterly clueless feel no shame.

Imagine a person who fancies themself a Yacht Designer posting this on an internet forum, just this week, for the world to see:

"There was also a keel design theory about "elliptical loading" of the fin for drag reduction. But it went away rather quickly."

Ho-lee-shee-it.  This explains some things.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Bacco:

I think the MEGA was way ahead of it';s time in several areas. It was not a very good sailing boat and that would have hurt its chances in the market.

That seems to be the generally held opinion of them but..... I have seen PHRF's as low as 130 for them which was a crazy fast 30' back then. The highest I've seen was about 140 which was still extremely fast - a 1/2 Tonner of that vintage was 165 or so at best.

????????

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1 minute ago, chester said:

it's a Farr?

Yup... good eye. It's an unfortunate bastardisation of an 1104 by an Oz boatbuilder done, I think, without Farr's input. I'd be willing to bet he got no design fees either. 

I can see that spoiling Bob's morning walk now ... the stealing of designs, that is.

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1 hour ago, CriticalPath said:

Tanzer Industries started out producing designs of founder Johann Tanzer, (14, 16, 22, 7.5, 26, and 28, and 8.5 were all variations on a similar theme), but later on went with name-brand designers for some of their offerings:

The 25 and 29 were Joubert/Nivelt designs; the 25 in particular is a pretty decent sailing boat if a little too powered-up for it's intended use.

The 10.5 was a Dick Carter design with a centre cockpit, pilothouse, and funky lifting keel/rudder mechanisms.

The 27 was a re-jigged O'Day 26, designed by Raymond Hunt.

The 31 was designed by C&C.

All except the 27 were designs commissioned by Tanzer for their own production.

My parent's first keelboat was a T22, #58 bought new in 1971, the second T22 on Lake Ontario, and the first to be fitted with three windows per side (my mom asked Johann what he could do to lighten up the v-berth)!  The boat was and remains a decent little performer, with lots of interior, deck, and cockpit space for 22'.  Not a classic looker, but gets the job done pretty effectively.

Cheers!

 

Actually the Tanzer 27 was the Paceship 26 in a previous life. Tanzer bought the molds when AMF stopped building boats, and built it pretty much unchanged with the exception that the mast was deck stepped.   John Deknatel, of C. Raymond Hunt designed both the O Day and the Paceship.

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3 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

I can see that spoiling Bob's morning walk now ... the stealing of designs, that is.

He actually gets a lot of credit for boats he had nothing to do with.

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4 minutes ago, py26129 said:

Actually the Tanzer 27 was the Paceship 26 in a previous life. Tanzer bought the molds when AMF stopped building boats, and built it pretty much unchanged with the exception that the mast was deck stepped.   John Deknatel, of C. Raymond Hunt designed both the O Day and the Paceship.

Ah-yup, you're right - my second "Oops!" in one post!  At least both were Deknatel designs, that where my goof came from!  Mind's slipping...

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That seems to be the generally held opinion of them but..... I have seen PHRF's as low as 130 for them which was a crazy fast 30' back then. The highest I've seen was about 140 which was still extremely fast - a 1/2 Tonner of that vintage was 165 or so at best.

????????

I raced against one for quite a while, and was friends with it's owner. Aside from being funny-looking, the lifting keel was really a klunker. They were tippy and not fast except in relatively light air. I think that if dry-sailed and given a lavish sail budget, and a skipper & crew very tuned into the boats quirky likes & dislikes, it could win PHRF. The boat I was sailing at the time, a dentist's J30, regularly walked all over the Mega 30... thinking back, I think we could have done the same, dragging a bucket or two.

But this CRUISING Anarchy, dammit!

FB- Doug

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5 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

He actually gets a lot of credit for boats he had nothing to do with.

Yeah any pretty double ender gets called a Bob Perry design.

Trouble is there's no check in the mail.

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16 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That seems to be the generally held opinion of them but..... I have seen PHRF's as low as 130 for them which was a crazy fast 30' back then. The highest I've seen was about 140 which was still extremely fast - a 1/2 Tonner of that vintage was 165 or so at best.

????????

156 on Lake Ontario. It was fast for the vintage but there were faster boats. Laser 28's rate around 125, Kirby 25's around 160.

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

As I recall the MEGA was a joint project with North Sails.

 

 

It was a joint venture with C&C, Lowell North, and Peter Barrett. Lowell and Barrett won the gold medal together in the Star at the Mexico City Olympics. Sails for the boat were only available from North and both companies marketed the boat. 

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That Mega looks all the more interesting when you find out it was a '77 launch.  Nothing IOR about it and a keel ahead of it's time (albeit not enough keel it sounds like)

Screen Shot 2018-11-29 at 8.13.10 am.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-29 at 8.11.41 am.png

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That Mega is an interesting boat for a 1977 boat. It is weird that it isn't stiff as it's got lot of ballast for its displacement and a rather big bulb so the VCG must be quite low. The cocpit and the deck look quite ergonomic.

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2 hours ago, py26129 said:

Actually the Tanzer 27 was the Paceship 26 in a previous life. Tanzer bought the molds when AMF stopped building boats, and built it pretty much unchanged with the exception that the mast was deck stepped.   John Deknatel, of C. Raymond Hunt designed both the O Day and the Paceship.

Ironic, cause the Paceship 26 was a pretty little pocket cruiser.  Tanzer somehow mucked up the proportions on the cabin trunk with the new deck mold.

 Image result for Paceship 26

 

Related image

 

 

While looking for the Paceship 26 , I stumbled into the Paceship 23.  Ouch.  Looks like a Tanzer.  :D

Paceship 23 sailboat Brin de Folie 1359.jpg

 

Believe it or not, this was designed by C&C.

 

A later version looked more typical:

Paceship PY 23 sailboat Second Wind 1220.jpg

 

 

 

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One of my friends had a Mega back in the day. He said that someone, probably Peter Barrett, published some tuning guidelines, and when he followed them he did OK racing. But he never really liked the boat.

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5 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Ironic, cause the Paceship 26 was a pretty little pocket cruiser.  Tanzer somehow mucked up the proportions on the cabin trunk with the new deck mold.

 Image result for Paceship 26

 

Related image

 

 

While looking for the PY26 , I stumbled into the PY23.  Ouch.  Looks like a Tanzer.  :D

Paceship 23 sailboat Brin de Folie 1359.jpg

 

 

the PY/Paceship story is kinda a muddled.  THIS is a PY (paceship)23

220px-Paceship_PY23_sailboat_0716.jpg

looks like a shrunk 26.  there was one at our lake on our dock.  The Paceship 23 you show, i've never seen one in the flesh and wiki says its a C&C design!

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Just now, chester said:

the PY/Paceship story is kinda a muddled.  THIS is a PY (paceship)23

220px-Paceship_PY23_sailboat_0716.jpg

looks like a shrunk 26.  there was one at our lake on our dock.  The Paceship 23 you show, i've never seen one in the flesh and wiki says its a C&C design!

 

I had updated my post with this detail.  You were too quick. :D

 

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Sometimes a designer will admit that a boat is not quite as beautiful as he might have hoped. There is an Atkin boat named Red Onion. If I have the attribution correct, William Atkin wrote this:

...She did not look just right... A little off here and there, and a lot cock-eyed along her sheer. In the water she looked even worse than on the land. Her owner christened her Red Onion. Asked why, he replied, "Every time I look at her, she brings tears to my eyes...

More info here: http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Articles/Minka/index.html

I think what happened is that the strong, ugly bends in the plywood don't show up in the lines plan. 

2018-11-28_1656.png

2018-11-28_1708.png

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