captain_crunch

When good designers produce ugly boats.

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2 hours ago, chester said:

the PY/Paceship story is kinda a muddled.  THIS is a PY (paceship)23

220px-Paceship_PY23_sailboat_0716.jpg

looks like a shrunk 26.  there was one at our lake on our dock.  The Paceship 23 you show, i've never seen one in the flesh and wiki says its a C&C design!

Paceship yacht built boats in Mahone bay throughout the 60s and into the 70s. At the end they were building the PY23 & PY26 whose molds were sold to AMF when Paceship closed their doors in 1976, i think. AMF then built the PYs until they stopped building boats and the PY26 mold went to Tanzer who built them as the Tanzer 27 for a few years

There is a website dedicated to Paceships at: www.paceship.org

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2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Ah, ok.  So the Tanzer 26 has nothing to do with the PY26.   Cause its pretty ugly.

Image result for Tanzer Tanzer 26

and

tanzer-tanzer-26.jpg

 

 

Nothing the first tanker is the 7.5 and the second the 26. Port lights in the raised deck was the 7.5

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3 minutes ago, chester said:

Nothing the first tanker is the 7.5 and the second the 26. Port lights in the raised deck was the 7.5

Kinda looks like the same boat with different window configuration.

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2 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Kinda looks like the same boat with different window configuration.

Most of the early Tanzers were just variations on the basic ugly. Then there were the Grampians. George Cuthbertson bought the molds at auction just so he could chainsaw them.

1973-Grampian-34-centre-cockpit-ketch_15

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5 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Kinda looks like the same boat with different window configuration.

You're probably right, the older boats had the port lights. They are essentially the same boat save 2 feet of loa

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Jammer

Well at least you admitted that you met Bob and he rubbed you the wrong way. That’s probably true.

But when you said that you had contemplated having Bob do consulting for you in choosing your boat until you met him, I’ll have to scream BULLSHIT! 

2 options:

1: You have no money for a boat (not a lot of people can afford one) and sit at a barstool or coffee shop when you post.

2:  You have a powerboat.

 

You and Air are a special breed. 

Proa is another. He bashes Bob and his wrecking crew for their activities here in mono world and slithers back to the multihull thread to act as thug #1 for his mentor/idol who is not light nor quiet in his disdain for criticism or challenges to his methods. It’s a vicious crowd over there sometimes and it spills over here in the lulls.

I think I’ll start going over there with a good ol’ stick and poke a few of Proa’s soft spots if he comes back here bashing our man Bob anytime soon.

 

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24 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Proa is another. He bashes Bob and his wrecking crew for their activities here in mono world and slithers back to the multihull thread to act as thug #1 for his mentor/idol who is not light nor quiet in his disdain for criticism or challenges to his methods. It’s a vicious crowd over there sometimes and it spills over here in the lulls.

Who is his mentor/idol?

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

You gave him a "like" for that post, just so you know.

That was sloppy of me. :rolleyes: Thanks Ish - corrected.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Most of the early Tanzers were just variations on the basic ugly. Then there were the Grampians. George Cuthbertson bought the molds at auction just so he could chainsaw them.

1973-Grampian-34-centre-cockpit-ketch_15

He was a very public spirited man.

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1 hour ago, overlay said:

 

Mr Air,

To be perfectly fair you need to add that this was not the only modification made to try and get this ..... how you say.... "boat" to sail.

They did hack a chunk off the end of the boom after they launched the first couple and realised how much the designer had actually  f@ckKEed uP,  allegedly.

In fact it actually gets worse  ,allegedly.

From a Yachting world review........

although a few early boats had longer booms and end-boom sheeting -- a nuisance bordering on dangerous for the unaware helmsperson during a gybe. A mid-boom traveler was introduced with a shorter boom and slightly taller rig

 

As shown below.

valiant40-sailplan.thumb.gif.6e25766211cef896256e8e1aea520217.gif

 

 

May I tender exhibit "A" original backstay demolishing  , mainsheet crew beheading, maximum weather helm version below.

0_4.thumb.jpg.ffbf3538d39a30c5405847dc17bacccb.jpg

 

Who actually designed this? Just ask'n

Same poseur who drew this monument to the very worst instincts of the USA boatbuilding business in the 1970s.

 

img_4216459_20130228150219134_1_LARGE.jpg

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9 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Yeah, we see that.

Look at it this way: either I'll drop over dead and you'll be free, or you're going to deal with me for the rest of your life.

If only.

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Ha ha ha! Belly laughs!!!

underlay is back...

Maui, it is Russell Brown that Proa is in bed with. They’ve sailed for years together on a Proa Jzerro and Proa has a YouTube account full of videos. His screen shot is him standing in his bathroom with his tropical shower curtain as a backdrop. At least he grew a beard so he looks more like a man. 

Their true enemy over there is Rob Denny of Harryproas. They hate him and all things Atlantic Proa or any Proa That has the ama to the windward side.

It’s more fun to read when you know the “covert players” identityB)

New could fill this thread with lots of ugly multis...-not Skateaway though- an absolute head turner 

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10 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Ask him.

I will.  

I figured out who you are.

We’ll see if I’m right and I’ll get back to you...:)

 

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10 hours ago, overlay said:

 

Mr Air,

To be perfectly fair you need to add that this was not the only modification made to try and get this ..... how you say.... "boat" to sail.

They did hack a chunk off the end of the boom after they launched the first couple and realised how much the designer had actually  f@ckKEed uP,  allegedly.

In fact it actually gets worse  ,allegedly.

From a Yachting world review........

although a few early boats had longer booms and end-boom sheeting -- a nuisance bordering on dangerous for the unaware helmsperson during a gybe. A mid-boom traveler was introduced with a shorter boom and slightly taller rig

 

As shown below.

valiant40-sailplan.thumb.gif.6e25766211cef896256e8e1aea520217.gif

 

 

May I tender exhibit "A" original backstay demolishing  , mainsheet crew beheading, maximum weather helm version below.

0_4.thumb.jpg.ffbf3538d39a30c5405847dc17bacccb.jpg

 

Who actually designed this? Just ask'n

Nice boat, shame about the CODB ....

maybe someone can help me here, how does the position of the mainsheet on the boom have any effect on weather helm?

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4 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

I will.  

I figured out who you are.

We’ll see if I’m right and I’ll get back to you...:)

 

Care to spill the beans privately? It sure would be interesting to know who is the coward behind that troll.

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17 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Most of the early Tanzers were just variations on the basic ugly. Then there were the Grampians. George Cuthbertson bought the molds at auction just so he could chainsaw them.

 

 

 

Wonderful Freudian typo on the sailboatdata.com page for Grampian:

Quote

Grampian began building it's own line of ailing yachts which included the CLASSIC 31

 

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Olaf:

 That's one good thing about a double ender, less room for CODB.

 

You would think so wouldn’t you?

I know who owns that boat

 

F5A79C82-F109-4452-A00D-56AC14BF5597.jpeg

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Mark:

I did too. But in the first race in a V-40 a non sailing lady sat on the stern pulpit during the start.  She got slapped upside the head with the sheet during a jibe. She was buying a Valiant and for here and her hubby we moved the trav to over the companionway and most buyers after that preferred it there. As I had it rigged originally there was a fiddle block with a cam cleat on the trav aft and the sheet went forward and then back aft to a sheet winch on the cabin top. This way you could choose which end of the sheet to pull on. I like the arrangement.

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2 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

You sure know how to hurt a guy Olaf.

 

It’s all coming off, just need the time to attack it.

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35 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

"Unaware helmsperson during a gybe"  lmaooooo

I always prefer end boom sheet aft of the helm to mid boom.

Unaware as in Air and underlay.

more stupid statements from ignorant trolls.

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I am here looking for Jammer6 though.

Care to poke your head out, homeboy?

C’mon Little Debby...don’t “drag”this out.

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12 hours ago, overlay said:

OOOHHHH,

It looks awfully Brent Swain??

 

I take it the guy learnt from his previous efforts at unravelling the mystery of C of E and CLR  and started with a pokey thing out the front (Do we call that the CLAW? or the CWAW depending on your pronounciation) just in case the forestay needed moving. Now thats innovative. Clever guy, he knew his limitations.

Bwahahahahaha

 

Show us how you do it.

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12 hours ago, AlR said:

Same poseur who drew this monument to the very worst instincts of the USA boatbuilding business in the 1970s.

 

img_4216459_20130228150219134_1_LARGE.jpg

Show us how you do it.

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Islander Freeport 36, one of my best designs. I almost bought one but my wife was pregnant without first son and the layout didn't work for me.

This boat is owned by a fan club member who has owned it since it was new. He loves he boat. He could buy anything. He won't part with this boat. Hew's towing a 14' Boston Whaler in this shot.

Show us how you would do it. Simple request. Put your money where your mouth is.

46108927881_da976b3d97_k.jpgFreeport 36 nice by robert perry, on Flickr

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34 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Show us how you do it.

So funny.  Hacks in this thread bad mouth Bill Lapworth and Olin Stephens.  Not a peep.  But point out the dogshit produced by the hero of the stupid, and it's Show Us How You Do It.

Boy, ya got something on the tip of your nose.

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21 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Islander Freeport 36, one of my best designs. 

Saddest statement ever by a Yacht Designer.  Sadder still, possibly true.

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2 minutes ago, AlR said:

Saddest statement ever by a Yacht Designer.  Sadder still, possibly true.

Show us what you've done.

Oh, wait - you've already shown us all you got.

That's your mom calling you upstairs for dinner.

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24 minutes ago, AlR said:

So funny.  Hacks in this thread bad mouth Bill Lapworth and Olin Stephens.  Not a peep.  But point out the dogshit produced by the hero of the stupid, and it's Show Us How You Do It.

Boy, ya got something on the tip of your nose.

Actually, there has been plenty of critical comments of Bobs work.  Bob doesn't take it personally. Often as he has expressed a thousand times, the guy writing the checks gets to make most of the decisions and Bob doesn't always agree but tries to make it work.  I personally dont like the double enders (except for Francis), but thats me.  Every boat isnt going to please everyone.  Who cares?  But I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE Icon.  Sign me up for one of those.

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46 minutes ago, Jammer Six said:

That's it? You didn't ask him?

When your name popped up, I signed on looking for your retraction. (I knew you'd never apologize.)

P.S. You missed quite a few forums. And quite a few years. 

I asked him. He never heard your name.  Said he doesn’t know you-wouldnt care to either. 

Air and Overlay get more respect than you. 

P.S. You’re a disgrace ro the 9th Infantry Regiment if you even served.

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Stolen Valor seems more his speed.

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46 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Often as he has expressed a thousand times, the guy writing the checks gets to make most of the decisions and Bob doesn't always agree but tries to make it work.  

Perry's customers ask for boats that don't balance under their sailplans?  Perry's customers ask for boats that don't float on their lines?

Strange decisions for an owner to make.

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Owners make strange decisions.

But which boat isn’t floating on it’s waterline? One that isn’t loaded with fuel, water, gear and ground tackle?

I altered the sailplan and rig on one of my boats to improve on weather helm. It’s no diss to the designer or the one design class. I could see room for improvement. There’s always room for  that and every boat ever built was a compromise.

Any ugly designs by anyone else? 

 

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I have never met whiner6. if I did I sure have quickly forgotten him. He made no impression on me at all. If I had met him I would have pegged him for a jerk immediately and blown him off. Simple as that. But we know who he is now. He's nobody.  

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40 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Owners make strange decisions.

But which boat isn’t floating on it’s waterline? One that isn’t loaded with fuel, water, gear and ground tackle?

I altered the sailplan and rig on one of my boats to improve on weather helm. It’s no diss to the designer or the one design class. I could see room for improvement. There’s always room for  that and every boat ever built was a compromise.

Any ugly designs by anyone else? 

 

IMHO the most common cause of problematic weather helm is a blown out old mainsail, everything else can be sorted with sail trim.

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If we're going with Bernadette, I suggest this clip is more apropos

 

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I'm probably old fashion, but, I dont dig tattoos on women.  I've seen some incredible beautiful women covered in ink and wonder why.  

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No big deal. Its about the music. I'm not really turned on by the ink either, but hey, this girl can actually sing. 

 

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7 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

But which boat isn’t floating on it’s waterline? One that isn’t loaded with fuel, water, gear and ground tackle?

 

 

Already discussed :

Kakatan_profile_pic.jpg

as documented by the owner : http://jakatan.com/jakatan_012.htm

I am not sure how common a mistake this is but don't ask a question if you don't like the answer :rolleyes:

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I would have that boat in a heartbeat...

800 lb in a 32,000 lb boat is no big deal, it’s an extra fuel or water tank, or an extra anchor chain, or an extra battery bank.

I just took over 3000 lb of junk out of a Valiant 40 and put it in a skip, most of it was in cockpit lockers and the lazarette.

There is still at least 1000 lb of CODB to go. Cruising boats accumulate a lot of extra weight with time, it’s just a question of where it goes.

My 14,000 lb Adams has 1200 lb more lead in its keel than the designer specified, it was a builders error but it sails like a witch.

Jakatan could make most of that weight up with steel davits rather than carbon ones, and a decent RIB and outboard.

You are losing perspective as you peer through your red fog...

 

 

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Already discussed :

Kakatan_profile_pic.jpg

as documented by the owner : http://jakatan.com/jakatan_012.htm

I am not sure how common a mistake this is but don't ask a question if you don't like the answer :rolleyes:

I read the issues section. My name isn’t Bob so I can’t tell you what the design criteria are. I now know that it is a very expensive wooden composite cutter. Seeing as it is the only one, there are many variables that have not been previously assembled in the space of that waterline/beam. I was expecting some damning accusations of deception, fraud and disappointment.

Nope. Just some multi millionaire mentioning the things that did not go exactly as planned in his maritime adventure dreaming of his yacht. He failed to mention what a jerk Bob is for Lying and deceiving he and his wife. He explained all the “problems” some of which he created for himself-and the simple solutions to achieve satisfaction. I did feel bad that he could not achieve the dry wonderful smelling bilge that he dreamed of, but too bad for him. I would have put a small bilge pump up there...

anyway-lets read what the owner wrote so the readership here doesn’t get the impression that you are correct in your excitement in finding the slightest fault. I think you forget that most of us here are lifelong sailors and have had or have sailboats that require proper stowage and tankage balance to appear level when fully loaded.

Our dear boat owner here stepped up from a Nonsuch 33 production boat to a custom build. He got exactly what he wanted and is very happy with the boat- unlike you. Let’s read, shall we? 

And read the last line, you stupid, nitpicking Frog...............................

 

“The main downside was making the boat heavier which would make it slower to accelerate. At 32,000lbs Jakatan was already heavy, so this would have less impact compared to a light boat. Finally, cruising boats get heavier in the rear over time as owners add gear, this is why you see many cruising boats below their water line in the stern. I calculated that a dinghy, outboard, bikes, and other stuff could add up to 400lbs at the transom. With the ballast box I can easily remove bricks of lead to keep the boat in trim. Sailing the boat now I don't notice or think about the trim ballast, no one will.

Except for Panoramix...

 

 

KIND OF A GOOD IDEA THAT THE STERN WASN’T OVERLOADED AT REST SO THE OWNER COULD LOAD JUNK IN THE TRUNK TO ACHIEVE THE PROPER BALANCE OF SAID HULL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

As far as the guy running out of diesel...his problem. 2 tanks-no run out of fuel. Forget to switch to both - you’re sucking air. Can’t blame the size of the tank. The guy was there every day watching the build. If he didn’t know over 2years that he was getting twin 75 gallon tanks, that’s on him. 

All that said, the guy loves the boat and you do too. You just hate Bob Perry and yourself. That’s why we’re over in this nice Bash Bob thread. It’s fun for me to pick you girls apart.

You are hollow and I often wonder how your Dad feels about Bob Perry the designer since you mention that you borrow his boat-a production boat no less that has its own idiosyncrasies. Would your Dad say “Nice dig son, I’m proud of you! You almost made a valid point this time! You’re a true Frenchman now in Brittany style!” I could go on, but there’s much more to come from you folks and I must rest my fingers for the next fool 

E3DB158C-9580-4C2C-93CF-2D723C4D7A66.jpeg

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@Sail4beer I just replied to your question (that was about boat trim not unhappy client). If you had paid attention before you would have known that this was the wrong question to ask as a groupie. Your bad...

I don't hate Mr Perry although when he starts behaving a bit too much like a bully it does sometimes irk me. Being a no non sense frank Breton rather than an Englishman mastering the art of the understatement I can sometimes make noises that incomodate Mr Perry. Do I need to go in Dylan mode and apologise?

And yes you are right, I quite like this boat and its low rig, if I had been the cleint I would have asked for a lighter version because I think that more than 20 000lbs is a big boat with all the disadvantages but I wasn't writing the cheques so that's fine.

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Like the owner said, not a problem and no one should notice. 

Dig deeper and find one that sails nose down ass up and I’ll give you credit. 

You might be a Frenchie, but you play word games like a true Englishman.

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Amidst all the personal attacks, a serious question was asked.  How should a designer set the location of the center of the sailplan relative to the center of the keel?  

To me, it seems that there is no right answer.  Balance is a function of heel angle.  As the boat heels, the forward thrust from the sails moves to leeward while the drag of the keel moves to windward.  The couple created by the sideways forces on the sails and keel will balance the couple created by the forward thrust  and drag at a specific angle of heel.  If the boat heels further, she will want to round up.

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46 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Like the owner said, not a problem and no one should notice. 

Dig deeper and find one that sails nose down ass up and I’ll give you credit.

You might be a Frenchie, but you play word games like a true Englishman.

In this sentence the owner justified adding extra ballast rather than moving the keel ballast, in his position I would have taken the same course of action as him but I am sure that he would have preferred to get it right from the first time! There are reasons why it is recommended to keep weight ou of the ends of a boat.

The only boat I built floated in its lines (or to be precise slightly above its lines but in trim), considering how much effort went into making sure that minimal weight went into the build, it would have really pissed us off to add ballast to trim the boat.  The naval architect got it right and TBH if I were ever in the position to get a boat built I would probably ask him to design it (he isn't holding his breadth as I am just a mere engineer).

And that's disingenous of you to ask for a boat that sail nose down because when this happens people trim it with extra weight or shift around heavy items. Sailing fishing boats around here were built without naval architects, carpenter would just tweak the lines gradually and place the ballast by experiment, it works but it isn't the best course of action hence (amongst many other reasons) why there are now naval architects!

May be I spent too much time in contact with these pesky English people. ;)

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Regarding the personal attacks, I will drag Philip Rhodes and Olin Stephens into this.

I remember reading an account of Philip Rhodes personally chiseling lead off the keel of one of his boats.  It hadn't floated right, and an error had subsequently been found in the calculations for the ballast volume.

One of Olin Stepens's 12 meters wasn't actually a 12 meter. I think it was Courageous.  An error was discovered in the displacement calculations when another designer was modifying the boat.

I used to work at a large shipyard.  Many years before I started there, the shipyard had sent the first of a new class of submarines on sea trials.  She wouldn't submerge. Making matters worse was that Hyman Rickover was aboard.  She needed more permanent ballast.

 

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4 hours ago, overlay said:

Gee that reads like one hell of a fUcKuP.

Who is this Perry guy?

WTF...

When Jakatan was launched it was clear that it didn't lay to its lines. The stern was about five inches too high. It is the architect's job to estimate all the weights in the boat and to determine where the center of buoyancy is. Then the ballast is located to produce the correct trim. Throughout the design process Perry was concerned about too much weight being aft. For example he resisted making the aft fuel tank larger because of trim concerns. Well it turned out that something was forgotten. Eric found that it took 800lbs. extra weight at the transom to get the boat on its lines. 

All sounds very familiar from the carbon cutter debarcle.

It only gets worse.

Perry stuffs up tankage calcs.

Perry designs anchor locker that doubles as front load washer.

ETC ETC.

WTF

We're still waiting for you to show us anything you've done.

What exactly was the "carbon cutter debarcle" (sic)

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This girl can actually sing - and write.  (I know The Doobie Brothers recorded this but Carly's influence on Michael McDonald is obvious)

These guys are pretty good too:

Now this girl can REALLY sing!

 

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Cruncher:

I have never  seen a program that will predict "balance". I have seen several geometric methods. I tried thme but found when compared to the characteristics of my boats they gave inconsistent results. Eventually after a few initial boats I began to get a better handle on balance. Yes, despite the idea that you start out with a perfect method for balance it's not true. If all I did was IOR boats in my early days it would have been a piece of cake. But I did a wide range of boat types so it was a challenge. I wasn't keen on the balance of the V-40. But when I suggested a short sprit you would have thought by the reaction that I got I had suggested a transom! No way in hell! The consensus was the V-40 balanced perfectly. I almost came to blow with Rich Worstel, owner of Valiant, on the dock at the Nap show over this.  Of course, as you now know, at the next Nap show Rich showed up with a Valiant 40 with a sprit. "You were right." One day talking to a designer of renown we began discussing balance. We both talked about how we did it and found we were spot on with our method. In time I became comfortable with my ability and confidence to design a boat with a good helm balance. I could rattle off a long list of boats that have beautiful feel. JAKATAN for one. You should feel NIGHT RUNNER on a pressing reach or FRANKIE upwind or STEALTH CHICKEN or STARBUCK I could go on. Of course you can ask anyone who has had the fun of driving one of the carbon cutter how they feel and I'm sure you will get a very positive report.

36684227924_407f5d259b_k.jpgyow 16 by robert perry, on Flickr

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When a boat doesn't float right, it isn't always the designer's fault.  The question should be asked how closely did the builder follow the plans.  Even if the plans are perfectly followed, there are issues of tolerances.  I was once told by a QA Inspector that three distinct plate thicknesses shown on a drawing were all the same plate due limitations in how precisely the steel mill could roll the plate.  I imagine with wood and fiberglass that there is great variation in density in addition to large tolerances on thickness.

Hull dimensions are another issue.  There is a tradition that a ship should never be built shorter than shown on the drawings.  Longer is okay, but shorter is not.  With welded hulls, this is a problem.  Allowance has to be made for weld shrinkage.  The tolerances are set to ensure the ship will be built longer than shown on the drawings.

 

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In my life, I’ve met Olin Stephens, Bill Crealock and Everett Pearson to name a free of the obvious players. Each one of them would say that no boat is perfect and there is room for error and correction.

It is arrogant to think that designing something unique won’t have a miscalculation that has to be adjusted. 

And Panoramix, I don’t think BP would work with you even if you could afford it. You wouldn’t get through the initial consultation before he realized what a whiner/ nit picker  you are and say NOPE!!! 

 

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I only sailed with Olin one time. Very down to earth and friendly as hell to a young boat apprentice that didn’t know much about the industry yet. 

Crealock-funny as hell with a dry sense of humor and a self deprecating attitude. 

Everett- Could have been a cowboy movie star. Had the attitude of a worker

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Cruncher:

I have never  seen a program that will predict "balance". I have seen several geometric methods. I tried thme but found when compared to the characteristics of my boats they gave inconsistent results. Eventually after a few initial boats I began to get a better handle on balance. Yes, despite the idea that you start out with a perfect method for balance it's not true. If all I did was IOR boats in my early days it would have been a piece of cake. But I did a wide range of boat types so it was a challenge. I wasn't keen on the balance of the V-40. But when I suggested a short sprit you would have thought by the reaction that I got I had suggested a transom! No way in hell! The consensus was the V-40 balanced perfectly. I almost came to blow with Rich Worstel, owner of Valiant, on the dock at the Nap show over this.  Of course, as you now know, at the next Nap show Rich showed up with a Valiant 40 with a sprit. "You were right." One day talking to a designer of renown we began discussing balance. We both talked about how we did it and found we were spot on with our method. In time I became comfortable with my ability and confidence to design a boat with a good helm balance. I could rattle off a long list of boats that have beautiful feel. JAKATAN for one. You should feel NIGHT RUNNER on a pressing reach or FRANKIE upwind or STEALTH CHICKEN or STARBUCK I could go on. Of course you can ask anyone who has had the fun of driving one of the carbon cutter how they feel and I'm sure you will get a very positive report.

36684227924_407f5d259b_k.jpgyow 16 by robert perry, on Flickr

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43 minutes ago, captain_crunch said:

...    ...    ...

I used to work at a large shipyard.  Many years before I started there, the shipyard had sent the first of a new class of submarines on sea trials.  She wouldn't submerge. Making matters worse was that Hyman Rickover was aboard.  She needed more permanent ballast.

 

Holy crap! Knowing a little about Adm Rickover's disdain for mistakes and hot temper, I bet there were some happy times around the old campfire THAT night!

FB- Doug (ex-BT1(SW) USN)

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Beer:"

I've met a lot of designers. I have become good friends with many of them. Even Brit Chance was "chummy" with me or at least as chummy as I think he ever got.  George Cuthbertson once walked into my office unannounced. We had a great chat. Al Mason stopped by one day with his  daughter. He was a lot of fun to chat with. I became friends with Ted Hood. There were a lot of gaps in the conversation when you chatted with Ted. He was a man of few words. Ted's Little Harbor dealership became the Lafitte dealer. Of course Bill Garden and I were friends starting in 1963 up until the end. Bill had a razor sharp wit and was full of design stories. Once with him on his island he talked almost non stop for two hours about all the law suits he had been involved in. I thin k he was trying to scare me. "Write everything down Bob, everything." Gary Mull and I were thick as thieves and there was no finer man to hang out with than Gary. I still talk regularly to Chuck Paine and Yves-Marie Tanton. I wish I had taped the conversation when Lorrie Davidson and Ron Holland came to lunch at the shack. That was a a hoot.

I once gave a talk at Mystic. Olin Stephens was there. He would also give a talk. (That made me nervous) Another group gave a talk on a nice old S&S boat that they had restored.

They gave the first talk with glowing reports on how the boat sailed. Then Olin got up and said (I'll paraphrase) " I can't believe you put all that effort into that boat. It was not that good a boat. And then he listed all the problems with the design. It was an eye opening talk. I had much respect for him. He was a very nice guy. When S&S became the dealer for the Valiant 40 I thought that was quite an endorsement. They sold a bunch of them.

I have client due to show up any moment but when I get a chance I'll write some more on "balance".

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15 hours ago, AlR said:

Perry's customers ask for boats that don't float on their lines?

 

15 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Owners make strange decisions.

But which boat isn’t floating on it’s waterline? One that isn’t loaded with fuel, water, gear and ground tackle?

 

35 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

It is arrogant to think that designing something unique won’t have a miscalculation that has to be adjusted. 

You need to choose your camp, first you imply that BP wouldn't design a boat that isn't floating on its waterline then you say that it's quite normal that he sometimes get his calculations wrong....

As somebody who design stuff for a living I think that being slightly off in your calculations is OK and being way off isn't.

36 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

And Panoramix, I don’t think BP would work with you even if you could afford it. You wouldn’t get through the initial consultation before he realized what a whiner/ nit picker  you are and say NOPE!!! 

Even if I had the money, why would I consult BP to design me a boat? There are plenty of talented designers close to where I live and many of them are qualified engineers like me who would understand better what I want.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

 In time I became comfortable with my ability and confidence to design a boat with a good helm balance. I could rattle off a long list of boats that have beautiful feel.   STEALTH CHICKEN 

As an example of Perry boats with good helm balance Perry cites one of his boats that had to have a forward raking keel retrofitted to make the helm balance!

Not to mention it was supposed to be an IMS raceboat.  Didn't float on it's lines, helm didn't balance, and couldn't sail to it's IMS rating.  Three strikes and you are out.

 

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So then everyone will be happy.

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Just now, AlR said:

As an example of Perry boats with good helm balance Perry cites one of his boats that had to have a forward raking keel retrofitted to make the helm balance!

Not to mention it was supposed to be an IMS raceboat.  Didn't float on it's lines, helm didn't balance, and couldn't sail to it's IMS rating.  Three strikes and you are out.

 

Every time you open your mouth you make yourself sound more stupid and ignorant.

The reasons for the forward raking keel was thoroughly detailed. Can you say "existing bolt pattern"?

But I suppose you would have to be able to read to know that.

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Wrong again air. Stealth chicken was much enjoyed  by the first and second owner and is now in the PNW much loved by it's current owner. If the boat had not been a great boat why would Bruce have asked me to design FREE RANGE CHICKEN? Simple question.

Great boat.

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Every time you open your mouth you make yourself sound more stupid and ignorant.

The reasons for the forward raking keel was thoroughly detailed. Can you say "existing bolt pattern"?

But I suppose you would have to be able to read to know that.

Of course you miss the point.  Why did anyone have to worry about "existing bolt pattern"?  The boat could have happily used the existing bolt pattern, and the existing keel, if the fucking designer had put the thing in the right place the first time around!

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I have a draft modified Mars keel on my Hereshoff and the fine folks at Mars did the maths to make it work. The lead  bulb was purposely flipped upside down by the PO for whatever reason, thus negating some of the effectiveness of the underwater form. to make up for the imbalance the mast is now raked slightly forward. You won’t be able to beat it in a race and it neutralizes the helm.

Pano, if you had French designer work with you the boat would show up in this thread immediately. We know you’re taste in boats.

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5 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Wrong again air. Stealth chicken was much enjoyed  by the first and second owner and is now in the PNW much loved by it's current owner. If the boat had not been a great boat why would Bruce have asked me to design FREE RANGE CHICKEN? Simple question.

Great boat.

Nothing wrong about what I said.  You have posted yourself about that boat being a stern dragger and having helm balance issues.  It is well known that when it tried to race in IMS it sailed around at the back of the fleet, even with the President of North Sails sailing her.

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A couple examples.

From William Garden's Sailing Designs, about a drop-keel sharpie ketch name Tillie Howard:   

A few words about the rig: to allocate centers I went though the usual calculations, meditations, and adjustments, but upon sailing the boat, Frank reported a lee helm, the keel being too far aft -- by about 19 inches I would say as a second guess. That gave me much worry until Frank Davis found that, by raising the keel partway up in normal sailing weather, she would balance perfectly with the three lowers set. In a hard breeze, when maximum stability is needed. the board is cranked down and the jib taken in, giving her a handy cat-ketch rig all on travelers and with the same proper balance. 

The Tartan 10.  Once upon a time, I read an article about the development of the Tartan 10 that described how tests with the prototype revealed problems with balance that resulted in moving the keel. I don't remember the details, and I can't find the article on the web today.

It's interesting that both boats are narrower than average, so it's tempting to think that may play a part.  

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17 minutes ago, AlR said:

Of course you miss the point.  Why did anyone have to worry about "existing bolt pattern"?  The boat could have happily used the existing bolt pattern, and the existing keel, if the fucking designer had put the thing in the right place the first time around!

Of course you miss the facts of the matter - much easier to just make up your own bullshit isn't it?

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30 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Of course you miss the facts of the matter - much easier to just make up your own bullshit isn't it?

The FACTS are these:  The designer put the original keel in the wrong place and it had to be retrofit.

No Bullshit.

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

This girl can actually sing - and write.  (I know The Doobie Brothers recorded this but Carly's influence on Michael McDonald is obvious)

These guys are pretty good too:

Now this girl can REALLY sing!

 

My parents met Carly on a ferry in New England. They were sitting with her passing time when people came up and asked her to sing  Anticipation. My parents are big band people but they knew her song and afterwards they had a nice chat again. 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

 

Pano, if you had French designer work with you the boat would show up in this thread immediately. We know you’re taste in boats.

if ifs and ands were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers' hands.

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1 hour ago, AlR said:

The FACTS are these:  The designer put the original keel in the wrong place and it had to be retrofit.

No Bullshit.

Yeah you're right, I agree.

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4 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Cruncher:

I have never  seen a program that will predict "balance". I have seen several geometric methods. I tried thme but found when compared to the characteristics of my boats they gave inconsistent results. Eventually after a few initial boats I began to get a better handle on balance. Yes, despite the idea that you start out with a perfect method for balance it's not true. If all I did was IOR boats in my early days it would have been a piece of cake. But I did a wide range of boat types so it was a challenge. I wasn't keen on the balance of the V-40. But when I suggested a short sprit you would have thought by the reaction that I got I had suggested a transom! No way in hell! The consensus was the V-40 balanced perfectly. I almost came to blow with Rich Worstel, owner of Valiant, on the dock at the Nap show over this.  Of course, as you now know, at the next Nap show Rich showed up with a Valiant 40 with a sprit. "You were right." One day talking to a designer of renown we began discussing balance. We both talked about how we did it and found we were spot on with our method. In time I became comfortable with my ability and confidence to design a boat with a good helm balance. I could rattle off a long list of boats that have beautiful feel. JAKATAN for one. You should feel NIGHT RUNNER on a pressing reach or FRANKIE upwind or STEALTH CHICKEN or STARBUCK I could go on. Of course you can ask anyone who has had the fun of driving one of the carbon cutter how they feel and I'm sure you will get a very positive report.

36684227924_407f5d259b_k.jpgyow 16 by robert perry, on Flickr

Yes, the good news is through trial and error hopefully we learn.  Yacht design is part science and part art.  Having a sailed lot of Perry boats over the years (and won a lot of races with them) I appreciate the process of evolving and improving over time.  WTF??

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I'm presently staying at a small Caribbean beach resort that has WiFi, and I have too much time on my hands, so I spent much of the afternoon studying the Sailboatdata website to see which designers had the most designs.  This is strictly an apples and oranges comparison since it only includes series production boats and not one-offs.   I have grouped fathers and sons together on the theory that this was a continuation of the same design office.  I only included names I recognized.  Just in case it isn't already apparent, I am not claiming this list is accurate.

Sparkman & Stephens: 238

E. G. Van de Stadt: 146

Groupe Finot: 118

Cuthbertson & Cassian: 111

German Frers: 104

Robert Perry:.101

Bruce Farr: 96

Philip Rhodes/McCurdy & Rhodes: 80

William Tripp, Jr./William Tripp, III: 79

Doug Peterson: 64

Kim Holman/Holman & Pye: 63

Gary Mull: 57

William Shaw: 56

Ted Irwin: 55

Carl Alberg: 54

William Lapworth: 54

Charles Morgan: 54

Ron Holland: 53

Ted Brewer: 50

Jack Laurent Giles: 48

William Crealock: 47

Alan Johnstone/Rod Johnstone: 46

Peter Norlin: 46

Ted Hood: 42

Raymond Hunt: 41

Bruce King: 40

John Alden: 39

Shad Turner: 36

William Garden: 32

Halsey Herreshoff: 32

Chuck Paine: 32

Alfred Luders: 27

Dick Carter: 23

Alan Buchanan: 22

Carl Schumacher: 20

Lyle Hess: 19

Robert Harris/McLear & Harris: 18

Tord Sunden: 18

Gary Hoyt: 17

Alan Payne: 17

David Pedrick: 17

Michel Dufour: 16

Thomas Gillmer: 15

Britton Chance: 14

Andre Mauric: 12

William Atkin: 11

Reichel & Pugh: 11

Alan Gurney: 10

George Hinterhoeller: 10

Edwin Monk, Jr./Edwin Monk, Sr.: 10

Johann Tanzer: 10

David Sadler: 9

Johan Valentijn: 9

Charles Wittholz: 9

Laurie Davidson: 8

John Illingworth: 8

Bill Lee: 8

Mark Soverel: 8

Yves-Marie Tanton: 8

Tom Wylie: 8

Alvin Mason: 7

George Olson: 7

Arthur Robb: 6

Jim Antrim: 5

Bruce Bingham: 5

Charles A. Nicholson: 5

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7 minutes ago, captain_crunch said:

I'm presently am staying at a small Caribbean beach resort that has WiFi, and I have too much time on my hands, so I spent much of the afternoon studying the Sailboatdata website to see which designers had the most designs.  This is strictly an apples and oranges comparison since it only includes series production boats and not one-offs.   I have grouped fathers an sons together on the theory that this was a continuation of the same design office.  I only included names I recognized.  Just in case it isn't already apparent, I am not claiming this list is accurate.

Sparkman & Stephens: 238

E. G. Van de Stadt: 146

Groupe Finot: 118

Cuthbertson & Cassian: 111

German Frers: 104

Robert Perry:.101

Bruce Farr: 96

Philip Rhodes/McCurdy & Rhodes: 80

William Tripp, Jr./William Tripp, III: 79

Doug Peterson: 64

Kim Holman/Holman & Pye: 63

Gary Mull: 57

William Shaw: 56

Ted Irwin: 55

Carl Alberg: 54

William Lapworth: 54

Charles Morgan: 54

Ron Holland: 53

Ted Brewer: 50

Jack Laurent Giles: 48

William Crealock: 47

Alan Johnstone/Rod Johnstone: 46

Peter Norlin: 46

Ted Hood: 42

Raymond Hunt: 41

Bruce King: 40

John Alden: 39

Shad Turner: 36

William Garden: 32

Halsey Herreshoff: 32

Chuck Paine: 32

Alfred Luders: 27

Dick Carter: 23

Alan Buchanan: 22

Carl Schumacher: 20

Lyle Hess: 19

Robert Harris/McLear & Harris: 18

Tord Sunden: 18

Gary Hoyt: 17

Alan Payne: 17

David Pedrick: 17

Michel Dufour: 16

Thomas Gillmer: 15

Britton Chance: 14

Andre Mauric: 12

William Atkin: 11

Reichel & Pugh: 11

Alan Gurney: 10

George Hinterhoeller: 10

Edwin Monk, Jr./Edwin Monk, Sr.: 10

Johann Tanzer: 10

David Sadler: 9

Johan Valentijn: 9

Charles Wittholz: 9

Laurie Davidson: 8

John Illingworth: 8

Bill Lee: 8

Mark Soverel: 8

Yves-Marie Tanton: 8

Tom Wylie: 8

Alvin Mason: 7

George Olson: 7

Arthur Robb: 6

Jim Antrim: 5

Bruce Bingham: 5

Charles A. Nicholson: 5

How many pizzas has Dominos sold?

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9 minutes ago, AlR said:

How many pizzas has Dominos sold?

I have no idea, but I like Dominos, and so do all those other people who buy their pizza.

 

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Back to something interesting.

When I was 11 years old in 1977, Ted Turner and local hero Gary Jobson came in for the weekend to do some round robin racing at TRYC. I was asked  to go around on a 13’ Boston Whaler and look busy. At lunch, I got a call to pick up a couple of sailors. It was Ted and Gary. I kept my cool because I had a job to do. What do you say to the world champs in a boat the size of kiddie pool? So I said “How’s the racing so far? Gary said “it’s great! Loads of fun!!. Ted didn’t say a word. I guess some people take 2 place as a good finish. Ted took it like he was the first place loser. After lunch, they went out and kicked everyone’s ass. Ted was happy after that.

That evening they sat with my parents at the dinner dance at the club and had a fantastic time. I’ll have to post some of Dad’s pics. Everyone was shitfaced and raging...

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The facts are these. The original keel for STEALTH was fine and in the right place. We  made a decision to reduce the ballast weight to get better light air performance. Retaining the original bolt pattern was a must. Very similar to the new keel Lorrie did for CASSIPEA with the same result, i.e. a forward swept keel. It had zero to do with the first keel being in the "wrong place". Bruce was happy with the result. Happy enough to have me design his next boat FREE RANGE CHICKEN. Aircan go on restructuring his "facts" all he likes. But he's a jealous bitter person with an adgenda here. No matter, he's still  someone who can produce nothing beside vitriol and bull shit. In then end I'll still be me and he'll still be nobody, just an angry whiner. I'd ask him this question again: If STEALTH had been a failure, why did Bruce comeback to me for anther design? Simple question.Common sense should tell you that if Stealth had been a failure, Bruce would have not come back to me for a second design. We were working on a third design when health issues forced him to give up sailing and move to Colorado. We remain very good friends.

There seems to be this weird idea with a small group here that they can "undo" what I have done. That's never going to happen. As of this morning there are now 4,093 members of the Robert Perry Yacht Design Fan Club on Facebook. I am i contact with owners of my boats all over the world. There are a lot of very happy Perry boat owners out there.

But, you can't make everyone happy. I'm good with that.I'm happy. I can't be responsible for a small handfull of angry losers.

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