captain_crunch

When good designers produce ugly boats.

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1 hour ago, Fleetwood said:

Yeah, five sails up on a 30'(?) boat and it's still not going anywhere.....

With the engine on as well I’ll warrant. Nice boat, no wind. 

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44 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

We got a gaff rigged boat by mistake (sort of ticked the wrong box on the internet) and we’re very surprised when we opened the packet. But we’ve got used to it - and it’s cool looking. This rig makes some sense for a big boat.Classic_14_AA_DSC_8290-1.jpg  

 

 

Where is the flying and spindle jib?

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41 minutes ago, S/V Eva said:

Where is the flying and spindle jib?

No flying jib, but there's a jib topsail waiting to be hoisted. You have me with the spindle jib. I don't know what it is, but I want one!

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1 minute ago, Jammer Six said:

Okay, looks.

But it still seems to me like you could fuck around for ninety minutes on that ketch and still not be balanced.

When it comes to balance (and close quarter manoeuvring at low speed) the mizzen is your friend. And it doesn't slow you down too much (colon, bracket).

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Look, we don't know what we're doing, so it doesn't matter if the crew don't either. We normally sail her two up - the only sail we don't bother with then is the mizzen top which is a bit of a toy.

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49 minutes ago, Jammer Six said:

 

Does anyone race a gaffers get raced?

Antigua classics

St Tropez

and many many many more even at a local level.

Then there is all the wooden boat speak apres sail. Building techniques, sailing skills and time honoured traditions that give and add insights to modern sailing.

Because its a celebration of a beautiful bygone era of sail everyone gets into the spirit of it. I just like all the beautiful women who turn up but that’s just me and maybe that doesn’t interest others.

Ed, you have a beautiful boat. 

I have a 4 knot SB that’s made of frozen snot and has it’s own merits but don’t let a plebian jammer 6 start to argue your boat’s place in sailing.

 

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Thank you all for not pointing out that she needs a bit more peak halyard tension on the main! Shameful, shameful. But I suppose that's what photoshop is for. 

 

 

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No shame! I’ve sailed a few big gaffers and you look up after the wind increases and see the throat halyard is low and the peak halyard choked up. You jump to make adjustments before the camera boats come rolling in!

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6 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

We got a gaff rigged boat by mistake (sort of ticked the wrong box on the internet) and we’re very surprised when we opened the packet. But we’ve got used to it - and it’s cool looking. This rig makes some sense for a big boat.Classic_14_AA_DSC_8290-1.jpg  

 

 

What on earth is that pretty thing doing in this thread.  Very nice Mr. Ed!  How many crew do you need to sail her?

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23 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

No shame! I’ve sailed a few big gaffers and you look up after the wind increases and see the throat halyard is low and the peak halyard choked up. You jump to make adjustments before the camera boats come rolling in!

One of the tricks my grandfather had was a set of wedges that he made to tension the throat halyard (I don't remember him fussing with the peak). He had a couple of them and of course the upwind setting was different from downwind.

My question for Mr Ed- do you set those jackyards in the lee, or slide them up on the windward side? I sailed on a big (well, 40~ish ft seemed huge to me at the time) cutter that set a HUGE jackyard topsail, always on the windward side, always close reaching with the main strapped in slightly, and there was some arrangement I don't recall with the backstays and boom lifts. It was an eye-opening experience for me in more ways than one, as I was convinced that it would be better done to leeward. To cut an embarrassing story short, the one time we tried it, I was wrong.

FB- Doug

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6 hours ago, Trickypig said:
7 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Does anyone race a gaffers get raced?

Antigua classics

St Tropez

and many many many more even at a local level.

Then there is all the wooden boat speak apres sail. Building techniques, sailing skills and time honoured traditions that give and add insights to modern sailing.

Because its a celebration of a beautiful bygone era of sail everyone gets into the spirit of it. I just like all the beautiful women who turn up but that’s just me and maybe that doesn’t interest others.

Ed, you have a beautiful boat. 

I have a 4 knot SB that’s made of frozen snot and has it’s own merits but don’t let a plebian jammer 6 start to argue your boat’s place in sailing.

There is a local old gaffer's group that has races. The light winds around Sidney sometimes make it less than exciting.

D73KD8o.jpg

 

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6 hours ago, olaf hart said:

Curlew spent a couple of seasons down here in Hobart in the late eighties, managed to regularly clean up most of the racers on the Derwent.

http://classicyachtinfo.com/yachts/curlew-2/

Funny you should mention that... I currently have their book Antarctic Oasis on my bedside table. Like the Pardeys, they sailed their boat engineless so the lack of prop aperture/propellor reduced drag.

I remember reading a `dissertation' by Larry Pardey on the increased daily mileage because of it and the calculated offset for calms. (I don't want to start an engineless discussion though!)

 

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

There is a local old gaffer's group that has races. The light winds around Sidney sometimes make it less than exciting.

D73KD8o.jpg

 

The Pacific Norwest has produced some fine light air racing sailors

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My gaff schooner JAKATAN raced in SF inn the schooner races. He cleaned up to the point the group asked him not to participate. Seems they were only interested in older gaff boats. Shame but I understand.

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Gaff rigs are back. 

They are just called Square Tops now, and use a pretty stiff batten instead of the spar....

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1 hour ago, Trickypig said:

Funny you should mention that... I currently have their book Antarctic Oasis on my bedside table. Like the Pardeys, they sailed their boat engineless so the lack of prop aperture/propellor reduced drag.

I remember reading a `dissertation' by Larry Pardey on the increased daily mileage because of it and the calculated offset for calms. (I don't want to start an engineless discussion though!)

 

I always thought Seraffyn's gaff-rigged sister, Renegade, was the prettier boat. Given that the Pardey's boats were engineless and of traditional plank-on-frame construction, I wondered why they weren't also gaff-rigged.

I attended a talk by the Pardey's many years ago. After the talk, a friend of mine started to tell Larry about his plans for his second Atlantic circuit on his Pearson 365. Larry cut him off and questioned whether a Pearson 365 was suitable for such a trip. I will always regret that I didn't blurt out what I was thinking: "Yeah, right! An engineless, biodegradable 30-footer is the only type of boat suitable for crossing the Atlantic."

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

One of the tricks my grandfather had was a set of wedges that he made to tension the throat halyard (I don't remember him fussing with the peak). He had a couple of them and of course the upwind setting was different from downwind.

My question for Mr Ed- do you set those jackyards in the lee, or slide them up on the windward side? I sailed on a big (well, 40~ish ft seemed huge to me at the time) cutter that set a HUGE jackyard topsail, always on the windward side, always close reaching with the main strapped in slightly, and there was some arrangement I don't recall with the backstays and boom lifts. It was an eye-opening experience for me in more ways than one, as I was convinced that it would be better done to leeward. To cut an embarrassing story short, the one time we tried it, I was wrong.

FB- Doug

Nice wedge story - I sort of put your question on to another thread which seemed a bit more logical. 

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31 minutes ago, captain_crunch said:

I attended a talk by the Pardey's many years ago. After the talk, a friend of mine started to tell Larry about his plans for his second Atlantic circuit on his Pearson 365. Larry cut him off and questioned whether a Pearson 365 was suitable for such a trip. I will always regret that I didn't blurt out what I was thinking: "Yeah, right! An antique engineless, biodegradable 30-footer is the only type of boat suitable for crossing the Atlantic."

FIFY

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On 11/30/2018 at 3:10 PM, captain_crunch said:

I have no idea, but I like Dominos, and so do all those other people who buy their pizza.

Ketchup on doughy white bread.

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On 12/2/2018 at 8:36 AM, Sail4beer said:

Love is a strange word. At least you got to throw all your shade in that little book. I’m sure Bob would love to hang out in a bar and drink with you. Me. Won’t find me there. 

You would like me if you didn’t need an enemy here to play with. 

Hater gonna hate. It’s all you can do.

Now back to scraping and painting those boat bottoms, you captain of industry.

Meanwhile, I’ll keep on enjoying some of Columbia’s second finest export and look for more ugly VdS’s. I never would have known how good they were at designing AND producing ugly boats without your help. When I am done I am going after the old Seafarer line out of Huntington, NY. They took a beautiful boat line and replaced it with something more up your alley.

Bob, look at that fine body of work. If you squint really hard, your eyes will close completely and they will look better.

30FF067F-FBB1-4C88-80FB-9B142939AAB2.jpeg

0112AAB3-0410-4058-B3B1-C92E6A5D3644.jpeg

5389FD4F-9CE0-4513-AA6D-5BB281C925FC.jpeg

Are those BS boats, Beer? (I'd like to have a beer with you)

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15 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Gaff on, man. They do indeed look cool.

CoZU368.jpg

I bet Mr. Bull could do a great rendition of this one.

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1 hour ago, southerncross said:

Throwing out Per Brohäll designs for discussion.

https://sailboatdata.com/designer/brohall-per

Albin Vega 27.  Although I never found the boat a stunner, a capable  boat with quite a reputation and history.

 

85923169-6CBF-4C1B-9A69-21366B518A0C.gif

Aaahh, a Swedish designer. I must react ...

Sorry to say I do not think the Vega should be here because Per Brohäll hardly ever produced any beauty. His most productive time was pre-GRP and early GRP days. The pre-GRP was mainly plywood creations - easy to build, but ... difficult to do a beautiful design. Then the Vega was very practical, had a good price and was a real step up from the Folkboat - which many did. Not a beauty and not ugly either. 

//J

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On 11/27/2018 at 9:33 PM, RedRyder said:

I fail to see the problem with that.

+1!

(from another folkboat owner)

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5 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

My gaff schooner JAKATAN raced in SF inn the schooner races. He cleaned up to the point the group asked him not to participate. Seems they were only interested in older gaff boats. Shame but I understand.

Mr. Perry. With all this talk of boats being designed properly do NA's, such as yourself, ever build scale models and tank test them? And yes, I am happy that you're here to fill us in on your goings on, projects, etc... I don't know why folks need to get so bent out shape. Too much wasted energy if you ask me. 

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1 hour ago, woahboy said:

I bet Mr. Bull could do a great rendition of this one.

He’s probably already on it.!

We’ll have to run into each other and have a cold one or two eventually 

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3 hours ago, southerncross said:

Throwing out Per Brohäll designs for discussion.

https://sailboatdata.com/designer/brohall-per

Albin Vega 27.  Although I never found the boat a stunner, a capable  boat with quite a reputation and history.

 

85923169-6CBF-4C1B-9A69-21366B518A0C.gif

Maybe the Vega isn't pretty, but she does have a purposeful look that I like. 

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Whoaboy:

I have only done tank testing once and that was for my 42' double ended powerboat LION'S CONCERTO.

Tank testing is expensive. I think for 2.5 days of tank testing the cost was about $60,000. That included two 6' models. It does not include the client's time or my own time.

It was a lot of fun and very revealing. Most clients I get are not wiling to put $60,000+ into tank testing. Most of the shapes I draw are very conventional and I don't think I need any

tank work.  Don't get me wrong. I'd do it on every design if I had the budget. On the powerboat I was concerned about the double ended hull config so I suggested we tank test. We built two models at Janeki and took them to the now gone tank in Victoria BC. We were able to make small adjustments to the models and run them for two days getting immediate read outs of the performance after each run. My client loved it. I have a lot of photos of the process but none that are scanned. It's a shame they tore that tank down. Not enoug business to keep it running.

Don't let the haters bother you. They have nothing better to do and zero to contribute.

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On 11/27/2018 at 7:15 PM, dogballs Tom said:

That's great for making pretty boats but not so great if you wish to sell them.

Speaking of things that are not so great if you wish to sell them, I don't think a Facebook group dominated by old tools and stuff is where I'd try to sell a Morgan 30-2. It actually looks like a nicely kept boat and maybe it has better angles and maybe this image will embed..

45733572_10213737385492335_8963990539418

Yipes. Kathleen has some hips. Or are those cankles?

I know I am late to the party but the Morgan looks awesome in person to me. They have an air of function and power in a retro way, a boat that means business. And at a dock they look like the can crush any similar size boat made in the last 20 years and   come out without a scratch

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3 hours ago, woahboy said:

Are those BS boats, Beer? (I'd like to have a beer with you)

Those sad examples are far superior to a Brent boat. Brent boats are as Smackdaddy stated when BS was among us “The Anvil of the Sea”. 

It would have been easier to buy all the raw materials you would need for a BS boat and have them delivered to the scrap yard or dump. You could have closure on the loss in much less time.

Actually, those boats remind me most of those little turtles you see coming out of the sand at dawn.

A number of dreams spawned and maybe one makes it. If it’s lucky...

Edited by Sail4beer
Because Brent Swain still sucks!

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

I really like the Morgans of that era. The 27 (26?) was a pretty fast boat in it's day. I like that look.

 

I was close to buying a Morgan 30-2 before I bought my Mirage 33, it felt like a sailors boat but the mirage will be much more comfortable for the family and is my first boat other than a dinghy that is younger than me, which is exciting.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

 It's a shame they tore that tank down. Not enough business to keep it running.

Did they try reducing the cost first? Maybe to only $15000/day

Sounds like it was a government operation.

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Jon:

I think the problem with the BC tank was that it had become too small. There was a much bigger tank in Easter in Canada. I'm sure in the end it was politics. The BC tank had a wave tank and a towing tank where many great projects were tested.

In the basement were racks and racks of tank test models including Bruce Kirby's 12 meter models.I''m telling you it was amazing to walk down those aisles and look at the models that had just been abandoned and ;left at the tank. Broke my heart. " Hey" I'll take 'em."

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1 hour ago, jimbojones said:

I know I am late to the party but the Morgan looks awesome in person to me. They have an air of function and power in a retro way, a boat that means business. And at a dock they look like the can crush any similar size boat made in the last 20 years and   come out without a scratch

We had a Morgan 30-2 at the club for a long time. When I first saw it, it was owned by a formal naval officer, and I thought the bow looked the part. I'm not sure how it stacks up overall, but that one was very impressive upwind in a breeze (when they everything set right).

And I'm still losing races to the earlier Morgan 30.

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On 11/27/2018 at 2:15 PM, dogballs Tom said:

That's great for making pretty boats but not so great if you wish to sell them.

Speaking of things that are not so great if you wish to sell them, I don't think a Facebook group dominated by old tools and stuff is where I'd try to sell a Morgan 30-2. It actually looks like a nicely kept boat and maybe it has better angles and maybe this image will embed..

45733572_10213737385492335_8963990539418

Yipes. Kathleen has some hips. Or are those cankles?

I love this morgan.  Its larger version of the 27 which kicked ass in our fleet in the 80s.    It had one of the craziest swept keels I have ever seen.

Related image

 

I love the look of this.

"It slices, and dices, and goes up wind." -- me.

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39 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

I love this morgan.  Its larger version of the 27 which kicked ass in our fleet in the 80s.    It had one of the craziest swept keels I have ever seen.

Related image

 

I love the look of this.

"It slices, and dices, and goes up wind." -- me.

Looks like you could open a beer with it. A big beer.

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59 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Looks like you could open a beer with it. A big beer.

They were weird shaped fins and didn't take grounding very well.  People filled in the trailing edge but took a rating hit if it was known.  I had a 27 for about 6 years, a few boats ago.  My favorite boat that I have owned to date for the way it sailed, looked and "cruised".  They were not put together very well though but were easy to fix.  The 33T and 36T looked like big 27's.  Something bad happened when they were drawing the 30-2.  It had a very ugly "clipper" shape to the bow that the other "racers" didn't have.  Not sure why they did that.  The original 30  (and 24) CB boats were very nice looking and sailed well.  The 24 was a real sleeper around here a long time ago.

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Yea, the 36T was the bees knees.   I think it was considered a one-tonner if I recall.  The 33T was probably a half-tonner and the 27 a quarter-tonner?

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8 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Yea, the 36T was the bees knees.   I think it was considered a one-tonner if I recall.  The 33T was probably a half-tonner and the 27 a quarter-tonner?

Raced against M27 a bunch, always thought it was an IOR boat but a few years back in discussion right here at SA, a bunch of knowledgeable peeps said, not so.

FB- Doug

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20 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

I always thought Seraffyn's gaff-rigged sister, Renegade, was the prettier boat. Given that the Pardey's boats were engineless and of traditional plank-on-frame construction, I wondered why they weren't also gaff-rigged.

I attended a talk by the Pardey's many years ago. After the talk, a friend of mine started to tell Larry about his plans for his second Atlantic circuit on his Pearson 365. Larry cut him off and questioned whether a Pearson 365 was suitable for such a trip. I will always regret that I didn't blurt out what I was thinking: "Yeah, right! An engineless, biodegradable 30-footer is the only type of boat suitable for crossing the Atlantic."

Every in-person exchange I read about that involves Larry...he seems to be a bit of a Richard. 

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No way was that Morgan 27 a quarter pounder. Way too much boat. I thin k it may have been designed when Ron Holland was working at Morgan. Not sure. But it could be and if so maybe it reflects his early thinking on IOR shapes with the narrow stern and fine bow sections. Could be. Fine bow sections relative to a CCA type, that is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/2/2018 at 8:32 PM, SemiSalt said:

I think the gaff rig is pretty much obsolete. A modern Marconi rig can be trimmed with a lot more precision and has a lot fewer opportunities for chafe. However, the Marconi main is not especially wonderful downwind, so racers and many cruisers use light sails of various kinds in compensation.

The gaff main is much worse than the Marconi main upwind, but much better downwind, especially broad reaching. So, if you're a cruiser of the "gentlemen don't sail to windward" school, or if you want to eschew light sails, there may be a gaff-rigged yacht that will work for you. Once upon a time, it might have been said that a gaff rig can be repaired anywhere, but a Marconi rig needs parts from the industrialized world. I'm not sure that's a very strong argument anymore. 

BOOK ALERT!!!

 

I had the opportunity to test some of the theory posted here about the reaching vs pointing power of the mainsail on a Marconi rig. 

I took my Ensign and put a 15” rake on the masthead and developed a main with a 12” head board on it, increased the roach as much as possible within the constraints of the backstay(which I might lose for a 3stay rig) loose footed the sail and added a couple of feet below the boom for more sail area. Radial cut black poly sails.  The first 6’ of the roach is straight vertical from the boom end. Basically a Fat Bottom main, as Bob so eloquently coined it. I wanted a gaffbatten fathead main but that would have required going to a 3 stay rig and I’m trying to keep the mods and radicalism to a financial and mentally acceptable level for now in case the national fleet notices how much better this rig is. 

I did it out of disappointment for the way the boat is rigged as a one design. A local no wind fleet developed the sailplan in the early 60’s with a huge 170+ Genoa that replaced the original working jib and added a spinnaker for downwind work. In most other areas the fleets sail there is ample wind that makes for overpowered genoa loading , tons of twist to depower the main and a lot of poor sailing as a result the boat heeled excessively.  You need 3 or 4 on the rail hiking hard and a man on deck to set and douse the spinnaker pole only to be caught in an endless promenade to the leeward mark. No tacking duels, just running the guy above you off the course a little. Other that that-DDW. Up in the lulls, down in the puffs. Ugh.

By removing the forward lower, a max roach blade jib with a one foot adjustable footboard was able to get the overall  power of the sails back a few feet to work more in synch with the forefoot cutaway keel and rudder combination. By feeding the main a clean solid level of power with the blade jib, the extra sail area of the main- especially lower and aft-allow for full control, little to no hiking and no noticeable weather helm with NO Lee helm. As the main loads up, the headboard can spill excess air and let the lower sail area propel the boat. Pointing is higher, boat speed remains the same in any wind over 8 knots. Between 6 and 8 knots, the one design can point slightly higher and have better upwind speed due to the larger sail area of the Genoa.

Offwind changes it all. By having a blade jib, a whisker pole allows for precise control and the oversized main really comes into play. Even thought the sail area has been reduced by 7% overall, most of it was placed in the main for off wind work. The main has as much area as a gaff rugged catboat would and the boat really gets powerful. Meanwhile, the one design has to keep the Genoa driving on a reach and has to set a pole, hoist a spinnaker, douse and secure the Genoa and then get a man on deck for every gybe. 

Downwind, there is no need for a spinnaker, a man on deck or a sail douse. Merely a whisker pole set from the safety of the cockpit and you are around the windward mark. The entire downwind leg is another battlefield as you can imagine, with no constraints from the spinnaker angles and the work to gybe. 

When the breeze get to 15 -18 knots and the spinnakers can’t fly well or safely in shifty gusts, the fatbottom main and blade will breeze on by like a man on a mission. In those conditions, the Ensign that has to rely on the main and Genoa because they can’t set the chute are going to be left a half a leg behind if they round the windward mark at the same time. In most conditions heeling the boat to windward puts an outrageous amount of sail area up and the boat powers  up and walks away.

I forgot to mention that there are no hiking straps or tiller extension on my Ensign Turbo in addition to ditching the spinnaker and pole and there is no need for winch handles or winches for that matter. It can be single handed easily and short handed in any race conditions. The blade is secured through cam cleats on the cabin top.

There is no mast tuning with the poly sails-straight pole- so the forward lowers, which induce mast pre bend are gone and gets the leech of the blade back further under the spreaders and the backstay should be left wwaaayyy slack. 

It’s an easy setup for older, weaker, disabled or pleasure use and if the national fleet adopted the general idea of the setup, it might bring new blood into and keep older blood in the fleets.

Good luck Marconi. I hope you can handle all the changes that are coming worldwide!

P.S. Lynn Pardy was always peachy nice to me! Her man,hmmm. Not so much. He’s a good guy. Always honest..

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And, of course, wing on wing is super cool looking and easy to control.

Forgot to mention the droopy boom to squeeze the extra juice out of the breeze.

Also, you can see the way the leech of the blade sneaks back under the spreader just below the TRYC burgee.  The lack of the lower there gives you an extra foot of sail area back there

6BC65667-D6E5-4494-A1DD-B5FB88F24E82.jpeg

5DEAAF32-F899-49AB-8BF9-43E2EBFDDF9B.jpeg

ED0DB3B3-9F0C-4DD6-98E4-DD9F99CDBC67.jpeg

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Forgot the Cunningham is not needed so I took it and use it as the asjustable backstay  since the backstay was moved aft15” it became several inches short of the tang. I dry sail the boat so it’s a snap to pop the cam cleat  and slide the former tack eye hook out of the backstay tang for the lifting cradle.

The blade is also a deck sweeper and is kid tested and mother approved

2E39E406-C52A-4453-B802-5FB5703778B9.jpeg

F5F88D7B-C1CB-4CC4-BA91-EECF695244EC.jpeg

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Reading Sail4's post, I was reminded of another characteristic of gaff rig: it's difficult to get a big foretriangle. As an example, look at the Camden Class sloop. This is what a hot racing class looked like just before the Marconi rig took over. The mast is not as high as the main even though the main has a  rather low aspect ratio. There is just not enough height there for a big jib. Aside from that geometry issue,  the staying isn't anywhere near as good.  Spreaders, if any,  had to be above the throat of the gaff. No standing backstay, although runners were usual. Stays were looped around the mast aloft which leaves a little slack. 

 

2018-12-04_1041.png

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29 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Forgot the Cunningham is not needed so I took it and use it as the asjustable backstay  since the backstay was moved aft15” it became several inches short of the tang. I dry sail the boat so it’s a snap to pop the cam cleat  and slide the former tack eye hook out of the backstay tang for the lifting cradle.

The blade is also a deck sweeper and is kid tested and mother approved

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I've sailed Ensigns just enough to know that, as currently raced in class, they're not my cup o'tea. Fun boats, if you didn't have to hike on that coaming or jam 4 sweaty male bodies as far forward in the cockpit as possible. I also dislike the skippers who think they handle like J22s crashing into us at the starts and marks. OTOH had some great sailing with good friends in one.

4beer, your improved sail plan seems very practical. The question is, how many people are going to think it ruins "the look" of the boat? Younger folk may not be programmed to think along these lines........

FB- Doug

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I think great sails always improve the look of any boat.

 

Beautiful morning at the shack. Cold and sunny, perfect for my solar cells to work at their max efficiency. Had a nice lunt with the dogs enjoying a bowl of Luxury Navy Flake. 

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11 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Yea, the 36T was the bees knees.   I think it was considered a one-tonner if I recall.  The 33T was probably a half-tonner and the 27 a quarter-tonner?

The 36T was a One Ton, the 33T was a 3/4 Ton and the 30/2 was a MORC boat with a bit of a nod to the IOR.

As Bob said, the 27 was way big to be a 1/4 Tonner - might have made 1/2 Ton but with a 25' waterline it would have been tough to make the 21.7 rating of the time.

All very neat boats - they were some of the earliest to have those wedge decks.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I've sailed Ensigns just enough to know that, as currently raced in class, they're not my cup o'tea. Fun boats, if you didn't have to hike on that coaming or jam 4 sweaty male bodies as far forward in the cockpit as possible. I also dislike the skippers who think they handle like J22s crashing into us at the starts and marks. OTOH had some great sailing with good friends in one.

4beer, your improved sail plan seems very practical. The question is, how many people are going to think it ruins "the look" of the boat? Younger folk may not be programmed to think along these lines........

FB- Doug

The local fleet like to hit each other. I won’t race against them or restore them anymore. It’s too painful to see my work destroyed. My work won the Most Beautiful Ensign Trophy twice and the level of neglect on many is sad. My boat is pristine gelcoat and not going to be hit. 

The boat has gotten nothing but positive attention and compliments. Kids will sail their asses of on an Ensign designed like this. It’s cool!

As far as the gaff VS Marconi rig and the differences we need to investigate Silent Maid. 1920’s design. Came with 2sailplans. The new Silent Maid 2003, had a gaff rig like the original. The owner had the Marconi rig built last year. 65’ mast.

 

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48FC3961-B876-49AA-9D6A-255B856C4F8C.jpeg

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13 hours ago, bridhb said:

They were weird shaped fins and didn't take grounding very well.  People filled in the trailing edge but took a rating hit if it was known.  I had a 27 for about 6 years, a few boats ago.  My favorite boat that I have owned to date for the way it sailed, looked and "cruised".  They were not put together very well though but were easy to fix.  The 33T and 36T looked like big 27's.  Something bad happened when they were drawing the 30-2.  It had a very ugly "clipper" shape to the bow that the other "racers" didn't have.  Not sure why they did that.  The original 30  (and 24) CB boats were very nice looking and sailed well.  The 24 was a real sleeper around here a long time ago.

This guy knows his Morgans of that family well.

     They were surprising performers for their time and could probably be a real sleeper in this day and age. Those keels made me scratch my head in my fledgling days of sailboat design and we called them the 'M-80 keel' for the resemblance to the GI C-ration can opener. Bit of a stretch of the imagination but judge for yourself.

Image result for m80 can opener

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22 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

C-ration can opener

I remember those little things, while spending many hours in a gun director.

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

Did you keep one on your dog tag chain?

I kept mine in the director.

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On 12/3/2018 at 1:48 AM, Fleetwood said:

Yeah, five sails up on a 30'(?) boat and it's still not going anywhere.....

You try moving 48,000 lbs (?) with 150 square feet of sail and see how fast you go.

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14 hours ago, bridhb said:

They were weird shaped fins and didn't take grounding very well.  People filled in the trailing edge but took a rating hit if it was known.  I had a 27 for about 6 years, a few boats ago.  My favorite boat that I have owned to date for the way it sailed, looked and "cruised".  They were not put together very well though but were easy to fix.  The 33T and 36T looked like big 27's.  Something bad happened when they were drawing the 30-2.  It had a very ugly "clipper" shape to the bow that the other "racers" didn't have.  Not sure why they did that.  The original 30  (and 24) CB boats were very nice looking and sailed well.  The 24 was a real sleeper around here a long time ago.

The Morgan 24 had a near magical balance that allowed her to sail very well to her MORC rating.   The 30 raced well too, but did not do quite as well in the 24.

My father had a Morgan 24 and one of his favorite stories was from one of the beer can/Thursday night races.   His crew did not make it, so he took her out anyway to race her single handed.   After a downwind start (back then, Thursday Night was non-spinnaker), he was holding his own in the class down to the first mark.   The next leg was a beat.

The boat was so well tuned and balanced that once the sails were trimmed in for upwind, she would sail, hands free, going upwind.   He was starting to make horizon on a boat that was two feet longer, so he hunkered down leeward, and then went below.   He was watching the other boat by peeking at the edge of the curtains as he starting to pass the other boat 20 feet to weather of them.   They were getting rather grumpy being passed by a smaller boat, until the cockpit came abeam of them and were dumbfounded to be passed by a sailboat with nobody on deck!

Dad had a lot of fun on that boat, and I was glad that I shared quite a bit of time with him.

- Stumbling

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14 minutes ago, stumblingthunder said:

The Morgan 24 had a near magical balance that allowed her to sail very well to her MORC rating.   The 30 raced well too, but did not do quite as well in the 24.

My father had a Morgan 24 and one of his favorite stories was from one of the beer can/Thursday night races.   His crew did not make it, so he took her out anyway to race her single handed.   After a downwind start (back then, Thursday Night was non-spinnaker), he was holding his own in the class down to the first mark.   The next leg was a beat.

The boat was so well tuned and balanced that once the sails were trimmed in for upwind, she would sail, hands free, going upwind.   He was starting to make horizon on a boat that was two feet longer, so he hunkered down leeward, and then went below.   He was watching the other boat by peeking at the edge of the curtains as he starting to pass the other boat 20 feet to weather of them.   They were getting rather grumpy being passed by a smaller boat, until the cockpit came abeam of them and were dumbfounded to be passed by a sailboat with nobody on deck!

Dad had a lot of fun on that boat, and I was glad that I shared quite a bit of time with him.

- Stumbling

Reminds me of the stories my grandfather told me about being a bombardier on a B-24 in WWII. When they were flying in the company of B-17s, they cut the two inboard engines between the them and the 17 and keep up just fine thanks their high aspect/low drag wings.

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Beer:

That's a potent looking catboat.

Many ears ago I was talking to Lowell North and I asked him what he though the most efficient rig was. He said, "One big sail." I thought of that when the wing sails came out on the AC boats.

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That catboat is bespoke everything. They built it at the Independence Seaport Museum in Philadelphia where the original is on display. 

Our A Cat fleet here is 28’ boat with a 48’ mast and a 36’ boom and the Silent Maid at 33’ dwarfs them all.

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I'd love to sail it. Not sure I'd love jibing it though. That must be fun. There was a 25' catboat that Bill Garden designed that lived in Port Townsend for many years. Fabulous looking boat. Huge 25'er. I love catboats, all that helm and all. Just part of the fun.

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The 36T was a One Ton, the 33T was a 3/4 Ton and the 30/2 was a MORC boat with a bit of a nod to the IOR.

As Bob said, the 27 was way big to be a 1/4 Tonner - might have made 1/2 Ton but with a 25' waterline it would have been tough to make the 21.7 rating of the time.

All very neat boats - they were some of the earliest to have those wedge decks.

Pretty sure the 27 was designed more to the MORC rule.  It had a very long waterline for a 27' boat from that era and a very fair hull with no weird bumps.  I raced it some in PHRF and even with very old sails it seemed to do pretty good,  sailed by 3 people, each with a beer in hand.  The keel was actually sort of "advanced".  Good foil shape and a substantial, almost bulb like thickened bottom.  If I didn't have stupid dreams of doing some real ocean  cruising in my old age (anyone want a 58 pound, 2 year old "chunky", really smart and friendly female (spayed) dog that showed up out of the woods a year ago?) I would consider another 27 or a 24.

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21 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I think the problem with the BC tank was that it had become too small.

I did undergrad at the UBC tank (in Vancouver, not Victoria). My TA sailed on the first modern Canada 12m. The towing carriage computer was a PDP-11 with 8" floppy discs!

They tore it down because UBC could make way more $$$$ in selling the land for condo's. It was a pretty small tank too but it was useful.  And the big basin was great for storms at sea for the movie industry. Near the end they were making way more money booking movies.

Now we do CFD work in house at a fraction of the cost of tank time. We have 5 guys doing it and the CFD cluster has it's own 15 kW air conditioner and it's running 24/7. If you ever need an unusual hull analysed Bob, let me know.

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36 minutes ago, Zonker said:

I did undergrad at the UBC tank (in Vancouver, not Victoria). My TA sailed on the first modern Canada 12m. The towing carriage computer was a PDP-11 with 8" floppy discs!

They tore it down because UBC could make way more $$$$ in selling the land for condo's. It was a pretty small tank too but it was useful.  And the big basin was great for storms at sea for the movie industry. Near the end they were making way more money booking movies.

Now we do CFD work in house at a fraction of the cost of tank time. We have 5 guys doing it and the CFD cluster has it's own 15 kW air conditioner and it's running 24/7. If you ever need an unusual hull analysed Bob, let me know.

How well do CDF results match up with tank tests?

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Very good these days if we're talking resistance. Very useful to compare hull #1 & #2 and see which is better.

We can do a lot in CFD that would be cost-prohibitive in the tank. Studies like a low speed waterjet self-propelled test where we actually modelled the flow of water through the jets (and resulting resistance). Otherwise you'd  have to build teeny tiny waterjet ducts into a model with teenier impellers. This was a displacement hull (normally you only use waterjets on high speed boats where the transom is immersed at rest, and dry at speed). Dragging an immersed transom around at displacement speed with the flow interactions of the transom and the jets was interesting.

We also model tugs being dragged through the water sideways  (escorting work) when you're simulating trying to stop a tanker and you're getting flow interactions with the propellers which are spinning. The tug's skeg is acting like a wing and the hull is developing lift and it all gets very complicated.

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12 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Dragging an immersed transom around at displacement speed with the flow interactions of the transom and the jets was interesting.

Does reverse work at all with the jet reflecting against the transom?

I've seen quite a few extravagant claims from the marketing departments of high end 3d printers lately. Maybe one day soon tiny model bits will be cheap, but the models would still suffer from scaling issues I suppose.

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When I was at Michigan, there was an active towing tank (West Engineering, with one end near the arch) - I got to ride the carriage during student orientation.  

I'd often sit and eat lunch next to the shop so I could look at all the models.  Lotta tankers, but some very cool shapes. 

I think they use the building for philosophy or something now. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

When I was at Michigan, there was an active towing tank (West Engineering, with one end near the arch) - I got to ride the carriage during student orientation.  

I'd often sit and eat lunch next to the shop so I could look at all the models.  Lotta tankers, but some very cool shapes. 

I think they use the building for philosophy or something now. 

 

The tank is still there and being used.

The NA department moved up to a building on North Campus the summer of 1977, but kept the tank in West Engineering - it would cost too much to build another one.

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In a tank you can't "scale" water. That is a big problem. That's why the towed model got bigger and bigger. Some people think that was where the Chance designed MARINER went wrong. The drag problems at the chopped off stern  were not visible in the tank. Maybe you could solve this by filling the tank with alcohol  or some dilution of it. But hell, then I could not smoke my pipe!  CFD eliminates this issue.

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1 minute ago, slap said:

The tank is still there and being used.

The NA department moved up to a building on North Campus the summer of 1977, but kept the tank in West Engineering - it would cost too much to build another one.

Good to hear - I guess I'd thought all of Engineering had moved, and assumed the tank was abandoned.

It's almost 'hidden', Lots of people would go through that building with no clue it's there. 

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On 12/3/2018 at 5:03 PM, Bob Perry said:

Whoaboy:

I have only done tank testing once and that was for my 42' double ended powerboat LION'S CONCERTO.

Tank testing is expensive. I think for 2.5 days of tank testing the cost was about $60,000. That included two 6' models. It does not include the client's time or my own time.

It was a lot of fun and very revealing. Most clients I get are not wiling to put $60,000+ into tank testing. Most of the shapes I draw are very conventional and I don't think I need any

tank work.  Don't get me wrong. I'd do it on every design if I had the budget. On the powerboat I was concerned about the double ended hull config so I suggested we tank test. We built two models at Janeki and took them to the now gone tank in Victoria BC. We were able to make small adjustments to the models and run them for two days getting immediate read outs of the performance after each run. My client loved it. I have a lot of photos of the process but none that are scanned. It's a shame they tore that tank down. Not enoug business to keep it running.

Don't let the haters bother you. They have nothing better to do and zero to contribute.

Thank you for the great answer, Mr Perry. 

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On 12/3/2018 at 4:54 PM, Bob Perry said:

I agree with Cruncher. The Vega is sort of the boat equivalent  of a Jeep. It has it's own look.

 

I've always like the look of the AV. Maybe I lean more towards the utilitarian ascetic.  

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21 hours ago, weightless said:

Does reverse work at all with the jet reflecting against the transom?

Yes, all waterjets are mounted on a vertical transom. To reverse, they lower "reverse buckets" into the flow - very much like the thrust reversers on a jet engine. The flow is diverted down a bit but mostly forward. Crash stop testing on a fast waterjet powered boats are great fun. Incredibly violent deceleration.

It's the bra shaped thing above the jet outlet. Whole thing swings down. The model shown is one of the larger ones Hamilton makes.

21610-12514869.jpg

 

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5 hours ago, woahboy said:

I've always like the look of the AV. Maybe I lean more towards the utilitarian ascetic.  

I always thought it looked like some sort of power boat adapted to sail - a Scandihoovian MacGregor trawler yacht if you will.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

Yes, all waterjets are mounted on a vertical transom. To reverse, they lower "reverse buckets" into the flow - very much like the thrust reversers on a jet engine. The flow is diverted down a bit but mostly forward. Crash stop testing on a fast waterjet powered boats are great fun. Incredibly violent deceleration.

It's the bra shaped thing above the jet outlet. Whole thing swings down. The model shown is one of the larger ones Hamilton makes.

21610-12514869.jpg

 

I think you win the internet, or at least our little corner of it, for the day with this photo. 

How long do those zincs typically last in service?

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It’s the modern derivative of sorts for the Kitchener rudder from England.

AC4C9967-8E5D-42DA-BABC-D4FC3DD1E92F.jpeg

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