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_dinsdale_

How to stop block from scrathing deck

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I have successfully created a Barber Hauler but the block (Ronstan Series 40) is scratching the non-skid gelcoat as it slides across the deck when the tension is brought on (this part of the deck is flat). Was thinking of gluing a thin sheet of HDPE under it but looking for alternatives... even something on the block itself, maybe? Thoughts. (as "lateral" as you like) appreciated?

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bungee to the shrouds or lifelines?

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This is easier with a picture, right? 

A bungie to the lifeline works well to keep the block off the deck, until there is a lot of tension on, then the bungie may not help much.  The direction that the line runs in determines the block position.  But the easiest way to keep the block off the deck when the barber haul is in use, is to run the line from the block up to a cabin top winch.   If you have to run it to a winch that is flush with the toerail, consider putting a very long D-shackle or other stainless fastener under the block, so that when the barber haul is tensioned, the block will tend to rise on a line between your low winch and the clew. 

Additionally, if you are trying to hold the block up with bungie, you need to have the right kind of block with a shackle on the lower end, and another shackle or becket on the top of the block, permitting you to fasten bungie to it.  Full disclosure - I use bungie for this purpose, but all my toerail blocks are becket blocks, so it's the easiest choice for me.  Your mileage may vary.

 

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Could you tie a turk's head around the block? They often tie turk's heads around the bases of blocks that are fastened to the deck, to keep down noise & chafe, but it sounds like your block isn't fixed down that way.

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1 hour ago, Lex Teredo said:

This is easier with a picture, right? 

A bungie to the lifeline works well to keep the block off the deck, until there is a lot of tension on, then the bungie may not help much.  The direction that the line runs in determines the block position.  But the easiest way to keep the block off the deck when the barber haul is in use, is to run the line from the block up to a cabin top winch.   If you have to run it to a winch that is flush with the toerail, consider putting a very long D-shackle or other stainless fastener under the block, so that when the barber haul is tensioned, the block will tend to rise on a line between your low winch and the clew. 

Additionally, if you are trying to hold the block up with bungie, you need to have the right kind of block with a shackle on the lower end, and another shackle or becket on the top of the block, permitting you to fasten bungie to it.  Full disclosure - I use bungie for this purpose, but all my toerail blocks are becket blocks, so it's the easiest choice for me.  Your mileage may vary.

 

I'll post a picture as soon as I can get back to the boat. Bungee won't work in this design which requires the block to slide across the deck... a picture will show you why. 

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9 minutes ago, PaulK said:

Could you tie a turk's head around the block? They often tie turk's heads around the bases of blocks that are fastened to the deck, to keep down noise & chafe, but it sounds like your block isn't fixed down that way.

Yeah. This might work. I'll try it out. Thanks.

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Make a neoprene sleeve around the block? Bit of work but it should work.

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Not to be a jerk after you've set the whole thing up but how about replacing the block with a low friction ring? They weigh almost nothing and have smooth edges so unlikely to scratch anything.

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image.png.f92c6b60d0409381f4e85906ee689a7d.png

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How about sticky back carbon deck patches? We have them under the spinny blocks. Or, for a cheap carbon looking alternative, try basalt.

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31 minutes ago, Varan said:

How about sticky back carbon deck patches? We have them under the spinny blocks. Or, for a cheap carbon looking alternative, try basalt.

that stuff is interesting! thanks for posting!

 

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6 hours ago, _dinsdale_ said:

Yeah. This might work. I'll try it out. Thanks.

I have been using a flattened turks head on the deck under the block for the kite pole kicker.  I imagine you could do a conventional turks head around the base of the block, say at the swivel, using part of an old halyard or sheet for say a three pass turks head?  An old piece of double braid make s a great turks head buffer.

Cheers,

Jim B)

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4 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Low friction ring works but it will still bang the deck noisily . I’ve been known to cut apart neoprene beer coozies and use those as pads

But then your beer gets warm.  Barbarian!

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Elk hide cover and learn how to stitch.

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On 11/26/2018 at 6:50 PM, JMOD said:

bungee to the shrouds or lifelines?

rocket science ......................

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Baby seal skin.  Plan it right and you can use their tears as winch lubricant.

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Okay here's the picture.

The block highlighted pulls at the inhaulers on both sides... long story, but short version: only one clutch/winch available, it works.

Meanwhile, have installed non-chafe tape under block, both on deck and block, but it's temporary until I get a better, more elegant solution.

Thanks especially to "SCARECROW" but baby seal skin is not available at local chandlery,... but they do sell puppy tongues, will this work?

Deck_barber Haul highlight.jpg

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSc425TpsYB4uf3cxqAmJx

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36 minutes ago, Mid said:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSc425TpsYB4uf3cxqAmJx

and the vegan alternative - Neoprene. Glued or stitched.

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I'd vote for covering the block rather than putting something on deck. It would have to be too large to cover all possible locations for the block. The beer coozie idea is looking better and better. 

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Thanks again all. Comments on suggestions below.

13 hours ago, Mid said:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSc425TpsYB4uf3cxqAmJx

I like the beer cozzie/ skin-covered block, but not sure that neoprene won't add more friction as well be tough enough to regularly dragged under pressure across the anti-skid. Leather seems a better choice but cutting/ stitching neatly will be a challenge for me. More research.

7 hours ago, IStream said:

I'd vote for covering the block rather than putting something on deck. It would have to be too large to cover all possible locations for the block.

The block doesn't move sideways very much, so the area to be protected isn't as great as it first looks.

 

10 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Teflon sheet with adhesive backing McMaster-Carr, I also used Dow 795 to glue it to my deck. 

Yes this could be better than the strips of tape I'm using. Why the additional glue?

9 hours ago, Medströms said:

I am not sure that the Protect Chafe Tape http://www.protect-tapes.com/products/chafe will work on non skid deck.

So far the anti-chafe tape I'm using is sticking to the non-skid (patterned gelcoat pimples, not painted-on texture) but Sunday it will be tested under racing conditions.

Thanks again for all the food for thought.

D

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So your problem isn't at the toerail, it's at the middle of the coach roof.  Makes me wonder how you are going to get the line up there.  But at any rate... 

You could mount a cheek block right where the existing block currently is, and think about putting in a decent sized backing plate inside the cabin, on the underside of the coach roof.  

You don't need padding for that.  You just need to use the right kind of block.  Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. 

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7 hours ago, Lex Teredo said:

So your problem isn't at the toerail, it's at the middle of the coach roof.  Makes me wonder how you are going to get the line up there.  But at any rate... 

You could mount a cheek block right where the existing block currently is, and think about putting in a decent sized backing plate inside the cabin, on the underside of the coach roof.  

You don't need padding for that.  You just need to use the right kind of block.  Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. 

When the line through the block is tightened, it pulls the block aft (and tightens up both inhauls at the same time).  The block moves aft.  A cheek block will not work in this situation.

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14 hours ago, _dinsdale_ said:

Why the additional glue?

Sorry I wasn’t clear. This sheet has a coating which allows adhesive to adhere to it. I just happened to have the D795 around; LifeSeal, 4200, whatever, would work. My application is to keep my constrictor clutches from binding, and it’s been on for something like 3-4 years. That said, the covers for the clutches do happen to also cover the sheet. 

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9 hours ago, PaulK said:

When the line through the block is tightened, it pulls the block aft (and tightens up both inhauls at the same time).  The block moves aft.  A cheek block will not work in this situation.

If you wanted to over complicate it you could put a piece of traveller track there with a sliding car and cheek block to replicate the current geometry.

But I don't see why a cheek block wouldn't work with a different setup. I assume the aft line tightens up from one of port or starboard but not both. Just replace the sliding block with a cheek block somewhere on the center line on the cabin top, take your existing line around that and forward and use it to pull backwards on whatever it is you have up near the mast that needs to be tensioned. No need for the sliding block. Of course that involves putting holes in the deck and backing plates etc.

 

 

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On 30 November 2018 at 8:30 PM, _dinsdale_ said:

Okay here's the picture.

The block highlighted pulls at the inhaulers on both sides... long story, but short version: only one clutch/winch available, it works.

Meanwhile, have installed non-chafe tape under block, both on deck and block, but it's temporary until I get a better, more elegant solution.

Thanks especially to "SCARECROW" but baby seal skin is not available at local chandlery,... but they do sell puppy tongues, will this work?

Deck_barber Haul highlight.jpg

Why do you need the block?

Remove it and run it straight to the jammer and winch

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1 hour ago, Rushman said:

Why do you need the block?

Remove it and run it straight to the jammer and winch

Having the block there provides 2:1 power for adjusting the inhauls so that many adjustments can be made quickly, without needing the winch.  Splicing or tying the two lines (one for each inhauler, P & S) together and running the tail directly to the jammer and winch might make it harder to make the adjustments quickly, without the winch, and using the winch every time would make it take longer, every time.

  

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33 minutes ago, PaulK said:

Having the block there provides 2:1 power for adjusting the inhauls so that many adjustments can be made quickly, without needing the winch.  Splicing or tying the two lines (one for each inhauler, P & S) together and running the tail directly to the jammer and winch might make it harder to make the adjustments quickly, without the winch, and using the winch every time would make it take longer, every time.

  

On a dinghy I can see an advantage of a 2:1 system

but

On a racer cruiser with furling headsail I doubt quick adjustments will ever be required.  There is a winch available if it needs adjusting under load

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Going back to my original suggestions, you could still get 2:1 with a ring or even just a thimbled eyesplice using a ring or a traditional thimble, albeit with more friction. 

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They sell patterned foam sheet, 3-6mm thick, for decking on jet skis, deck boats, ski boats, etc.  Lots of patterns and colors, self adhesive, pretty durable- at least several seasons then cheap and very easy to replace or update.  Everything from Trex and teak look-alike to wild colors and patterns.

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On 12/2/2018 at 12:31 PM, PaulK said:

Having the block there provides 2:1 power for adjusting the inhauls so that many adjustments can be made quickly, without needing the winch.  Splicing or tying the two lines (one for each inhauler, P & S) together and running the tail directly to the jammer and winch might make it harder to make the adjustments quickly, without the winch, and using the winch every time would make it take longer, every time.

  

I still use a winch and clutch, running aft out of shot on port side cabin top. Also out of shot is another block port side of the traveler which turns the line forward to the port deck organiser which in turn bends the control line back to the cockpit, lining it up with the aforementioned clutch and winch... I tried to draw over the picture to demonstrate but failed.

The main idea behind my design (stolen from other ideas online) is to control BOTH port and starboard in haulers with ONE clutch/winch setup as that's all I have available and this setup achieves this goal. It works BUT the block in question scratches the deck... as would a low-friction ring.

Unfortunately, testing the anti chafe tape under race conditions this weekend failed due the race being abandoned because of heavy weather.

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On 12/2/2018 at 12:05 AM, Max Rockatansky said:

Sorry I wasn’t clear. This sheet has a coating which allows adhesive to adhere to it. I just happened to have the D795 around; LifeSeal, 4200, whatever, would work. My application is to keep my constrictor clutches from binding, and it’s been on for something like 3-4 years. That said, the covers for the clutches do happen to also cover the sheet. 

Got it, thanks for the clarification. If the anti-chafe tape fails, this sounds like the next option.

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On 12/2/2018 at 9:24 AM, morwood said:

If you wanted to over complicate it you could put a piece of traveller track there with a sliding car and cheek block to replicate the current geometry.
 

Yes it would over complicate adding more holes in the deck and no easy access to the underneath to reinforce AND add more friction. The current system works... except for the scratching.

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On 12/3/2018 at 5:46 PM, boatcat65 said:

They sell patterned foam sheet, 3-6mm thick, for decking on jet skis, deck boats, ski boats, etc.  Lots of patterns and colors, self adhesive, pretty durable- at least several seasons then cheap and very easy to replace or update.  Everything from Trex and teak look-alike to wild colors and patterns.

Will investigate. Thanks.

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On 12/3/2018 at 4:40 AM, IStream said:

Going back to my original suggestions, you could still get 2:1 with a ring or even just a thimbled eyesplice using a ring or a traditional thimble, albeit with more friction. 

Ring will also scratch, a thimbled eyesplice is a good idea as long as the line is wider than the thimble BUT more friction is a problem... if anything I need less!

 

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On 12/2/2018 at 10:48 AM, NaptimeAgain said:

Foam cooshie for a beer can.

See earlier reservations below.

 

On 12/1/2018 at 9:50 AM, _dinsdale_ said:

I like the beer cozzie/ skin-covered block, but not sure that neoprene won't add more friction as well be tough enough to regularly dragged under pressure across the anti-skid.

 

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7 hours ago, _dinsdale_ said:

Ring will also scratch, a thimbled eyesplice is a good idea as long as the line is wider than the thimble BUT more friction is a problem... if anything I need less!

 

A ring can also be a thimble.

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Downsize the block and lines.  Seems like a single bullet, or carbo bullet block can do the same thing.  Switch to Tiny Dynema for the bulk of the thing and splice the cover where it hits the clutch..  

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4 hours ago, shaggy said:

Downsize the block and lines.  Seems like a single bullet, or carbo bullet block can do the same thing.  Switch to Tiny Dynema for the bulk of the thing and splice the cover where it hits the clutch..  

Hmmm interesting thought. But will reducing the size of the block actually stop the scratching? It will still run over the gelcoat. Will have a closer look at the blocks you're suggesting.

 

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18 minutes ago, _dinsdale_ said:

Hmmm interesting thought. But will reducing the size of the block actually stop the scratching? It will still run over the gelcoat. Will have a closer look at the blocks you're suggesting.

 

I have had the same setup with a single bullet block on the bottom of my cockpit for the fine tune for our backstay for years.  It basically does exactly what you are doing and there is no noticeable damage to the cockpit sole, so you should be fine.   

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12 hours ago, _dinsdale_ said:

See earlier reservations below.

 

 

They are dirt cheap so if they wear out it's not a problem and come in stiffer or floppier versions which may deal with friction. The thin ones can be trimmed to basically just cover the shackle and the top half of the sheave. 

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Thanks all for the input. Here's the solution I'm going with:  together with non-chafe tape on the deck, a webbing jacket. Wish me luck.

block_cover.JPG

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Looks like a winner

Some (other) good ideas from the thread.  

Never been a fan of plastic sheeting on deck areas that the crew traverse on tacks.  Just old fashioned that way...

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Don’t be surprised if the webbing binds. If I’m understanding you, there is texture on the deck and now you have added texture to the block. If this happens, try a softer/finer texture webbing. There is such a thing as Dyneema webbing, might work in that case. Wait... wonder if you could use PTFE sheet and cover the block in the same way you’ve done here?

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6 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Don’t be surprised if the webbing binds. If I’m understanding you, there is texture on the deck and now you have added texture to the block. If this happens, try a softer/finer texture webbing. There is such a thing as Dyneema webbing, might work in that case. Wait... wonder if you could use PTFE sheet and cover the block in the same way you’ve done here?

Thanks. The webbing I've used was just some stuff I had lying around, so consider this more a prototype. I agree Dyneema webbing is likely a much better option. Will look at PTFE sheet too... once "sea trails" confirm this idea works.

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Thin urethane sheet is available in light colors.  A disc bonded to the deck might work.

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On 11/29/2018 at 8:04 PM, SCARECROW said:

Baby seal skin.  Plan it right and you can use their tears as winch lubricant.

Greenpeace is having a Holiday special. They are giving a free one-year membership for every baby harp seal pelt that you send them. I'm giving them out for gifts.

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8 hours ago, Caca Cabeza said:

Greenpeace is having a Holiday special. They are giving a free one-year membership for every baby harp seal pelt that you send them. I'm giving them out for gifts.

Holiday club sale... details forthcoming. 

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image.jpeg.c31f03548859c84e852afcaeadc7b0e9.jpeg

 

shackle to the deck, bungee to the lifeline.  Sail tape wrapped around clip to look nautical and prevent from un-clipping.

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