kent_island_sailor

More FP stuff - Olympic Offshore?

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While I agree race courses that take 2 or 3 days to cover are a bad fit for the Olympics, I have to wonder if Brian Hancock ever has been on a keelboat?

"I think it’s a silly idea in part because there is nothing really athletic about sailing a keelboat"

Well there isn't when I am going to Annapolis for drinks in light air with just the furling jib rolled out and the autopilot on, but racing at a high level in heavy weather day after day is about the most demanding thing I can imagine. Are VOR boats crewed by fat lazy slobs? WTF? Well I guess you do miss the spectacle of kinetic-ing your way around in 0 knots of air, so there is that issue :rolleyes:

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I was thinking about inviting Brian out for a sail on a Star. If his body doesn't ache from head to toe by the end of the day, he wouldn't have done it right.

But the point of his article is Olympic Sailing.  It seems to have gone so far off the tracks that it jumped the shark long ago.  Sailing a whole bunch of boats that most have never seen, nor sailed, nor will be sailing.

World Sailing has been switching out classes like a revolving door, could you imagine women's beach volleyball changing to women's beach baseball changing to women's beach kite flying each quadrennium?

World Sailing has made it all as Goofy as it comes.

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At the risk of a thread hijack....check out Toads "Club Racing" posts & vids.....

It's time to walk away from the olympics, wean from the teat of their nominal funding that drives a wedge through our sport.... and get back to what really drives us... a passion for inclusive competitive FUN!

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4 hours ago, Couta said:

At the risk of a thread hijack....check out Toads "Club Racing" posts & vids.....

It's time to walk away from the olympics, wean from the teat of their nominal funding that drives a wedge through our sport.... and get back to what really drives us... a passion for inclusive competitive FUN!

What he said. Olympics have bled the life out of our sport for far too long. We can only ever grow from the bottom up, never from the top down.

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

While I agree race courses that take 2 or 3 days to cover are a bad fit for the Olympics, I have to wonder if Brian Hancock ever has been on a keelboat?

"I think it’s a silly idea in part because there is nothing really athletic about sailing a keelboat"

Well there isn't when I am going to Annapolis for drinks in light air with just the furling jib rolled out and the autopilot on, but racing at a high level in heavy weather day after day is about the most demanding thing I can imagine. Are VOR boats crewed by fat lazy slobs? WTF? Well I guess you do miss the spectacle of kinetic-ing your way around in 0 knots of air, so there is that issue :rolleyes:

Have you ever been on a Finn or a Laser? I will say that sailing high performance keelboats like a VOR or TP52 is very athletic but it's NOTHING compared to a Laser.

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11 hours ago, RATM said:

Have you ever been on a Finn or a Laser? I will say that sailing high performance keelboats like a VOR or TP52 is very athletic but it's NOTHING compared to a Laser.

Difference between a 100 yard dash and running from Miami to Baltimore ;)

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On 11/27/2018 at 3:35 PM, Glenn McCarthy said:

I was thinking about inviting Brian out for a sail on a Star. If his body doesn't ache from head to toe by the end of the day, he wouldn't have done it right.

But the point of his article is Olympic Sailing.  It seems to have gone so far off the tracks that it jumped the shark long ago.  Sailing a whole bunch of boats that most have never seen, nor sailed, nor will be sailing.

World Sailing has been switching out classes like a revolving door, could you imagine women's beach volleyball changing to women's beach baseball changing to women's beach kite flying each quadrennium?

World Sailing has made it all as Goofy as it comes.

Not only classes but also the race formats (like the medal race klusterfuck in many shades and versions)

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21 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

What he said. Olympics have bled the life out of our sport for far too long. We can only ever grow from the bottom up, never from the top down.

bled the life out of our sport, huh?  Question for you sportscar-- have you ever held an olympic gold medal in your hand?  have you ever witnessed an olympic gold medalist show up in a boat park and let the young blokes check out their medal? if you've ever witnessed these things, your views would likely change

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1 hour ago, MikeR80 said:

bled the life out of our sport, huh?  Question for you sportscar-- have you ever held an olympic gold medal in your hand?  have you ever witnessed an olympic gold medalist show up in a boat park and let the young blokes check out their medal? if you've ever witnessed these things, your views would likely change

Mike R80, the answer is yes, I have seen that situation many times.I have been hands on involved with junior programs for many years and arranged Medal visits in the past. And yes, they are exciting for the kids at the time. I have much respect for Olympic sailors (and medallists) but theirs is not the only pathway in sailing

But then I think about the cost of those medals in cash and in terms of lost opportunities for so many up and coming kids because the vast majority of the funding for this sport goes to the very few sailors at the top and the bloated bureaucracy that supports them, with very little left for real growth of the sport from the grassroots. 

There are fewer and fewer kids wanting to follow the Olympic dream these days and fewer and fewer parents willing to put up the big bucks necessary after seeing so many of those dreams shattered on the rocks of bureaucratic and political interference and cronyism.

My views wont be changing any time soon.

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2 hours ago, MikeR80 said:

bled the life out of our sport, huh?  Question for you sportscar-- have you ever held an olympic gold medal in your hand?  have you ever witnessed an olympic gold medalist show up in a boat park and let the young blokes check out their medal? if you've ever witnessed these things, your views would likely change

I find it interesting that American sailors (often) decry the lack of Olympic funding for their sportsmen, without understanding the destructive force that funding has on the sport in the wider context.

 

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SA is a strange land...with an amazing group of people, most sharing a passion for the sport. Hang around in it a bit and you begin to get a feel for who's been there, done that and has an informed opinion. They're usually succinct, direct and ring true with shared experience. SportsCar I know personally and his comments are absolutely fact in our part of the world. I've also had a deep dive into olympic sailing & coaching over the years. I no longer encourage youth to focus on olympic aspirations. There is a bigger story, a greater, more far reaching and satisfying aspect to our sport that is diminished by the politics of the rings. Building confidence through competence, creating friendships based on healthy enjoyment of what can be a lifelong learning challenge. Mate it gets deep. I love sailing...in all it's forms. But...IMHO.. 'Lympix is divisive and uninclusive... and definitely not FUN. As a result, it works against the best interests of growing the grass roots of our sport.

 

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11 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

But then I think about the cost of those medals in cash and in terms of lost opportunities for so many up and coming kids because the vast majority of the funding for this sport goes to the very few sailors at the top and the bloated bureaucracy that supports them, with very little left for real growth of the sport from the grassroots. 

What leads you to believe that the funding that flows to Olympic sailing would otherwise flow to the grassroots? As far as the UK goes, if sailing were not an Olympic sport, that funding would not be coming into sailing at all. I believe the same to be true in many countries. Why do you believe it to be otherwise in AUS?

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 1:43 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

While I agree race courses that take 2 or 3 days to cover are a bad fit for the Olympics, I have to wonder if Brian Hancock ever has been on a keelboat?

"I think it’s a silly idea in part because there is nothing really athletic about sailing a keelboat"

Well there isn't when I am going to Annapolis for drinks in light air with just the furling jib rolled out and the autopilot on, but racing at a high level in heavy weather day after day is about the most demanding thing I can imagine. Are VOR boats crewed by fat lazy slobs? WTF? Well I guess you do miss the spectacle of kinetic-ing your way around in 0 knots of air, so there is that issue :rolleyes:

For real. We had some sporty weather this year, didn't we?  Boomerang's six hour upwind leg was like being in the clothes dryer with a bag of rocks this year, the return from Solomons (which we sailed as a delivery rather than a race) was as physically punishing as anything as I can remember, and all of us finished Mid-Atlantics with bruises all over, and our excellent pit guy blew out his shoulder on day 1.  The Chesapeake Chop struggle is real, man. That on a 35' 10,000 lb keelboat with 9 crew...

Then again with rainfall at 2x usual levels, we had enough weekends with 95 degree temps, 95% humidity and zero wind, that the we skipped most of the mid summer drifter races, and family sailing was pretty much wiped out.  Although dodging the refrigerators and telephone pole-sized logs discharged from Conowingo did trigger some pretty athletic crash tack evolutions from time to time on the few day sails we did have. 

It's a different kind of athleticism than sailing a laser or an Open 60, but it's not placid enough to reduce keelboat racing to a pastime, at least if there's breeze.     

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Google in this case is not my friend. What GEMA is that please and what does it report to be the case?

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Sorry missed a B. It's GEMBA. It's a report commissioned by Australian Sialing back in about 2015.

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Here's a review of papers from the UK looking at the link between elite funding, performance and grassroots participation.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283833265_Funding_Performance_and_Participation_in_British_Olympic_Sports

Draw your own conclusion from the table towards the end.

I'd say more about what's happening here in Ireland but it hasn't come into the public domain yet.

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Back on topic in terms of it being a physical trial.

One comment thrown around related to one of the 2 doing all the sailing while the other paid the bills. What do you make of having a full autopilot on board in that case, particularly with the impact calibration will have on performance as a result? Then the view has been put forward that unless an autopilot is required it's not genuine offshore short-handed sailing.

It's required on safety grounds, is it required to race?

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I'm not particularly asserting that elite funding helps grassroots participation. What I find questionable is the belief that if sailing ceased to be an Olympic sport, elite funding would be diverted to the grassroots, which appeared to be sportscar's argument.

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Definitely wouldn't. Question is, given it's ring-fenced, whether that would actually make any difference.

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It would make a difference, here at least. There are at least two major sailing facilities in the UK that were built in whole or part by Elite Sport funding. Most keen sailors will use one or both of those at one time or another. A lot of the coaching structure and deliverables came out of Elite funding and that gets applied to race management training as well as directly for sailors, not only sailors within the squad system.

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5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

What leads you to believe that the funding that flows to Olympic sailing would otherwise flow to the grassroots? As far as the UK goes, if sailing were not an Olympic sport, that funding would not be coming into sailing at all. I believe the same to be true in many countries. Why do you believe it to be otherwise in AUS?

Dogwatch - here in Oz (and I suspect elsewhere) the "lympix funding gives the ILLUSION of government sports funding for a reasonable large participation sport. The reality is that the money goes to a bloated bureaucracy and very few elite sailors who are sent offshore to compete and provide very little "trickle down" benefits to grass roots.

The message to the sailing youngsters and their parents is toxic (get your kid an optimist, a coach, get yourself a RIB and start saving to send your 12 yo to the worlds...and if they don't show results...."next please!"). And...with so much invested - the rise of the tyrannical parent is inevitable (makes for a fun packed regatta!)

In the meantime, the clubs (esp the numerous smaller ones) - home of grass roots sailing - are ignored by our Peak Body, ignored by Govt and effectively told "get with the program or get lost". In these places coaching is financed by the club itself and supported with sailing experienced parents...and it's where the grass roots is really being developed.

Race management training is another issue and I do agree has improved (I do question the cost imposition this has had on event management - esp in junior events - flying in and accommodating international / interstate Protest Judges??)- That said, it's not seen as the limiting factor in the sports growth 

So maybe it's just Australia that has the problem....but to my point: "The focus on Lympix funding is (IMHO) limiting the development of grass roots sailing in Australia"

 

 

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5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I'm not particularly asserting that elite funding helps grassroots participation. What I find questionable is the belief that if sailing ceased to be an Olympic sport, elite funding would be diverted to the grassroots, which appeared to be sportscar's argument.

I’m not saying it would be, what I contend is that it should be.

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8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I'm not particularly asserting that elite funding helps grassroots participation. What I find questionable is the belief that if sailing ceased to be an Olympic sport, elite funding would be diverted to the grassroots, which appeared to be sportscar's argument.

its not just about funding.

As others have pointed out, our national sailing body is wholly captured by the taxpayer (Olympic) funding - to the tune of ~80% of their budget. The outcome is that grassroots, and 99% of sailors are not their focus.

Most clubs would not even notice if Australian Sailing disappeared tomorrow.

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OK. What makes you believe that situation would improve if sailing were removed from the Olympics? You think an organisation with 80% of its funding removed would suddenly become re-invigorated?

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24 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

OK. What makes you believe that situation would improve if sailing were removed from the Olympics? You think an organisation with 80% of its funding removed would suddenly become re-invigorated?

The Olympics is nothing but a burden to 99.999999999% of the people who sail because of the control and resultant beauracracy that WS and the MNA’s impose on the sport. I know the Brits make this work for you, but in the US and plenty of other countries it doesn’t work. Just because it’s good for you doesn’t mean the rest of us have to accept it. 

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Just because you think it's bad for you doesn't mean the rest of the world has to agree. 

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Just because you think it's bad for you doesn't mean the rest of the world has to agree. 

Judging by the limited entries in Olympic classes, I’d say the rest of the world agrees with me.

Look no further than kiteboards, they can’t even get a meaningful fleet of women for the world’s. What did they have in Aarhus? Something like 9? And how many finished all the races? Something like 3? 

There’s a lot of seriously good female kiteboarders around the world. Obviously they don’t care about the Olympics.

and to the point of this thread, there’s going to be a whopping 12 boats in the 2 person offshore fleet. So 12 countries, 24 people total. It’s only going to be the big government supported countries that will be in the event, the little countries are delusional if they think this is going to help them.

I won’t be at all surprised if the IOC drops sailing. It’s just too expensive to produce, and doesn’t really work for TV. That should be your bigger concern.

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Choosing not to sail an Olympic class and favouring the ending of Olympic sailing are two different things entirely.

I'm not sure how you or anyone else would know right now how many sailors would be in an offshore Olympic event but I'm not here to defend that proposal, I think it is an asinine idea.

I do not expect the IOC to drop sailing because the sport has friends in high places as far as the IOC is concerned. 

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3 hours ago, sunseeker said:

The Olympics is nothing but a burden to 99.999999999% of the people who sail because of the control and resultant beauracracy that WS and the MNA’s impose on the sport. I know the Brits make this work for you, but in the US and plenty of other countries it doesn’t work. Just because it’s good for you doesn’t mean the rest of us have to accept it. 

If practically everyone in the world sailed, that would equate to about seven sailors. :-)

 The bureaucracy and control that act as a burden imposed on the sport are not the result of the Olympics, WS or the MNAs, they are the result of heightened health and safety awareness, child protection and increasing professionalisation.

 What stands in the way of grassroots volunteer sailing programmes is the need to have qualified instructor/coaches (in many cases with child protection clearance), a sufficiency of well-maintained and suitable safety boats and insurance cover to protect them from having their lives (and/or those of the people in the hosting organisation) destroyed, should there be an accident.

 Similarly, the burdens on "grassroots" cruising are more likely to be things like licensing, safety certifications and regulations. Likely under the control of government organisations, rather than the IOC or WS. 

 I'll take issue with the MNA accusation, in particular. Your MNA should be protecting you from unnecessary legislation and if it isn't doing so then maybe the body is not acting in the best interests of its members?

 Perhaps if it's not working, that's due to failings with the MNA rather than with the Olympics or WS? I'm not trying to claim that the RYA is perfect, nor that the IOC and WS are doing everything right(!) but the way the RYA performance pathway is operating has certainly benefited every member of "my" sailing club significantly, through trickle-down funding, coaching and development support.

 I gather from the vitriolic postings here that this may not be the case in the USA or Oz.... but it's not clear to me that it's the Olympics that are the burden... rather it's the way the national body is operating. Given that they are also represented at WS, who might even respond to their input, perhaps that's where constructive criticism and transformational effort should be directed?

 .. or maybe I should just go back to my box...

Cheers,

                   W.

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On 12/1/2018 at 1:40 AM, WGWarburton said:

 Perhaps if it's not working, that's due to failings with the MNA rather than with the Olympics or WS?

 

I'd agree.,. with one addition. The MNA behaviour will be influenced by Government policies wrt funding.

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On 11/30/2018 at 9:40 AM, WGWarburton said:

If practically everyone in the world sailed, that would equate to about seven sailors. :-)

 The bureaucracy and control that act as a burden imposed on the sport are not the result of the Olympics, WS or the MNAs, they are the result of heightened health and safety awareness, child protection and increasing professionalisation.

 What stands in the way of grassroots volunteer sailing programmes is the need to have qualified instructor/coaches (in many cases with child protection clearance), a sufficiency of well-maintained and suitable safety boats and insurance cover to protect them from having their lives (and/or those of the people in the hosting organisation) destroyed, should there be an accident.

 Similarly, the burdens on "grassroots" cruising are more likely to be things like licensing, safety certifications and regulations. Likely under the control of government organisations, rather than the IOC or WS. 

 I'll take issue with the MNA accusation, in particular. Your MNA should be protecting you from unnecessary legislation and if it isn't doing so then maybe the body is not acting in the best interests of its members?

 Perhaps if it's not working, that's due to failings with the MNA rather than with the Olympics or WS? I'm not trying to claim that the RYA is perfect, nor that the IOC and WS are doing everything right(!) but the way the RYA performance pathway is operating has certainly benefited every member of "my" sailing club significantly, through trickle-down funding, coaching and development support.

 I gather from the vitriolic postings here that this may not be the case in the USA or Oz.... but it's not clear to me that it's the Olympics that are the burden... rather it's the way the national body is operating. Given that they are also represented at WS, who might even respond to their input, perhaps that's where constructive criticism and transformational effort should be directed?

 .. or maybe I should just go back to my box...

Cheers,

                   W.

US Sailing is fundamentally oblivious to that which goes on at WS and how it impacts recreational racing. US Sailing is really only interested in generating revenue from all their training programs, and even trying to figure out how to squeeze money from cruisers.

The LAST thing I or virtually anyone I know want is US Sailing doing any more than dealing with the racing rules and appeals, big boat measurement stuff, and tangential things like safety at sea seminars (though STC really should be running all that). Let US Sailing certify the Olympic sailing team. Otherwise, get out of the way. The rest of what you cite is germaine to your country. Leave the US out of your desire for beauracracy that gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 10:12 AM, duncan (the other one) said:

its not just about funding.

As others have pointed out, our national sailing body is wholly captured by the taxpayer (Olympic) funding - to the tune of ~80% of their budget. The outcome is that grassroots, and 99% of sailors are not their focus.

Most clubs would not even notice if Australian Sailing disappeared tomorrow.

DD they would sure a hell notice, all of sudden the treasurer would have to explain why there was all this money in the bank account.

Sa have just about perfectled the flow of money upwards and nothing coming back down.

But their real speciality is claiming events as their own when they are financed and run by other people and volunteers.

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To get back to the point of this thread, now it sounds like there were some “voting irregularities” in Sarasota for the vote that got this offshore double handed boat in the Olympics. It’s on another site and I know the Ed takes exception to linking to competitor sites. 

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On 12/1/2018 at 11:59 PM, sunseeker said:

....Leave the US out of your desire for beauracracy that gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Did you read the part of my post where I put the point that the National Body's role should be to limit bureaucracy? 

 Here in the UK the only license and certificate that's legally required to go boating is for a VHF radio, if you have one (and TBH, even if you do, what little enforcement is in place could be avoided with a dollop of common sense).

 The rest, while frustrating if you have to deal with it, is voluntary: No license is needed to own or operate a small boat, unless you are taking paying passengers.

 From what I read here about transferring titles, carrying "USCG approved" pfds etc. you have more bureaucracy than we do!

 Welcome to the USA, land of the fee.

Cheers,

             W.

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Sailing should just be removed from the Olympics. It is never a competition of the best in the world, just a bunch of countries that do not belong there.

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Another site reports, with seemingly good supporting fact, that it was machine error in the vote counting.

the three votes that were not recorded correctly are enough to change the vote and to keep the Finn in.

Gentlemen, start your attorneys. 

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6 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Sailing should just be removed from the Olympics. It is never a competition of the best in the world, just a bunch of countries that do not belong there.

 That's quite a claim. What makes you think it's not the best in the world that race there? 

Cheers,

               W.

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Countries refusing to send their best sailor, resulting in lower rank sailors from other nations going?

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

Countries refusing to send their best sailor, resulting in lower rank sailors from other nations going?

I'm only aware of that happening when the country in question believed their sailor incapable of a top result... which is more a matter of funding priorities than the quality of the competition... ensuring that the cost of competing isn't a barrier to entry is one of the main drivers behind the ongoing changes that we are discussing here.  

 And again... the issue is with the MNA in question, the gatekeeper for entries, not with the IOC, WS  or other MNAs...

  I'd argue that the best in the world were there, even if some of the fleet were making up the numbers... I think there's a stronger case for saying that the competition is devalued by the one sailor per nation rule (which is brutal for some nations).

 Doesn't mean the sport shouldn't be there, though... at least it's a race and not a popularity contest....

Cheers,

               W.

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At least, I think, 5 of the major sailing nations now follow this policy, although one of them (GBR) has suficient depth in order to table sailors in all events. Many smaller nations also focus their effort highly selectively based on performance criteria and wildcard places at the last games went pretty deep. Whatever the reason and cause it still impacts on the quality of the competition. The IOC have passed comment, so this is not an idle observation.

The best singular? That's a rather semantic game. Has the Finn had the best 3 sailors at any of the last 3 Olympic games for example? Since 2, if not all 3, where from GBR that's questionable.

How many times have we heard "it's harder to qualify than it is to compete at the games"? Enough.

The 1 country, 1 place also seems to be having an impact at a national level. High Performance ops are now focused on small numbers of individuals rather than squads with a wider national impact. If you're not the medal race candidate or there, often now international, training partner forget about it. The developing trend now is for total disconnection from the domestic sailing schene with sailors from a young age disappearing into international sailing academies.

 

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 6:12 AM, sunseeker said:

It’s just too expensive to produce, and doesn’t really work for TV

disagree. This may have been the case in the past, it is not in todays world. It does work for TV, just not the way they do it (did it).

Make it fun and exciting to watch, focus on simplifying it for non-sailors and it will work.

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:40 AM, WGWarburton said:

What stands in the way of grassroots volunteer sailing programmes is the need to have qualified instructor/coaches (in many cases with child protection clearance), a sufficiency of well-maintained and suitable safety boats and insurance cover to protect them from having their lives (and/or those of the people in the hosting organisation) destroyed, should there be an accident.

This could not be better stated, in the US at least. 

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On 11/28/2018 at 6:31 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Difference between a 100 yard dash and running from Miami to Baltimore ;)

Yes, and the 100 meter dash belongs in the Olympics, running from Miami to Baltimore doesn't.

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2 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

This could not be better stated, in the US at least. 

Look at it the other way - would you drop your 10 year old child off to spend the day with people who have no training or clearance to do something potentially dangerous. Would you? Would you sue them into oblivion if your kid drowned because the club had no idea how to check the weather and sent the little Opti greenies out into a major thunderstorm with no crash boat support and the instructor was in a canoe and didn't know how to sail but was a paid-up member of NAMBLA and sold dope on the side? Sure it is a PITA, but taking care of minor children is not an ad-hoc operation in the USA in any context unless you are really brave or have lots of bored lawyers on staff.

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3 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

disagree. This may have been the case in the past, it is not in todays world. It does work for TV, just not the way they do it (did it).

Make it fun and exciting to watch, focus on simplifying it for non-sailors and it will work.

the coverage World Sailing had at the last OCR event was actually pretty damn good. Biased towards people that actually race, but i think enough simple stuff to keep non sailors engaged.... but really, you gotta know your audience and most of them are at least going to be sailors, if not experienced racers themselves. 

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39 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Look at it the other way - would you drop your 10 year old child off to spend the day with people who have no training or clearance to do something potentially dangerous. Would you? Would you sue them into oblivion if your kid drowned because the club had no idea how to check the weather and sent the little Opti greenies out into a major thunderstorm with no crash boat support and the instructor was in a canoe and didn't know how to sail but was a paid-up member of NAMBLA and sold dope on the side? Sure it is a PITA, but taking care of minor children is not an ad-hoc operation in the USA in any context unless you are really brave or have lots of bored lawyers on staff.

I get it. It's all justifiable. Almost every regulation ever made is. It's also a huge burden and damaging to the growth of industry and sport.

If my small club wants to have lessons in protected waters with other adults even, it becomes unnecessarily complicated.

As for your questions, I wouldn't send my kid anywhere with anyone without personally getting to know them, their program, etc.

The care of kids is a parental responsibility, not governmental. If you choose to have those strict standards, I think you should find a place that provides them.

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The number of parents that have the time to personally hang around the club and supervise is pretty low most places. It is also very hard to get people to volunteer to run anything if they are too disorganized to provide insurance cover.

"We don't need no stinking regulations" is great until you hurt someone's kid and need to explain why YOU didn't have a crash boat or the one you do have ran the kid over.

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32 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

I get it. It's all justifiable. Almost every regulation ever made is. It's also a huge burden and damaging to the growth of industry and sport.

If my small club wants to have lessons in protected waters with other adults even, it becomes unnecessarily complicated.

As for your questions, I wouldn't send my kid anywhere with anyone without personally getting to know them, their program, etc.

The care of kids is a parental responsibility, not governmental. If you choose to have those strict standards, I think you should find a place that provides them.

i believe that in the US the strict standards are generated by lawyers and insurance companies more than government regulation.

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1 minute ago, JohnMB said:

i believe that in the US the strict standards are generated by lawyers and insurance companies more than government regulation.

Fair point.

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10 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The number of parents that have the time to personally hang around the club and supervise is pretty low most places. It is also very hard to get people to volunteer to run anything if they are too disorganized to provide insurance cover.

"We don't need no stinking regulations" is great until you hurt someone's kid and need to explain why YOU didn't have a crash boat or the one you do have ran the kid over.

Understand, I am not condoning reckless abandon. I would not suggest that any 'ol joe blow can grab his kayak and hit the inlet with 20 kids.

I just happen to see a gap locally of people who cannot attend legit YC programs (only one around and the program is...a joke and cost prohibitive) and there is no shortage of highly experienced sailors eager to share their passion for sailing and help teach the next generation. Regulation and red-tape keep them at bay.

Years ago a local group had businesses donate everything needed to build opti's (just the hulls), had dozens of kids join a building program, finished them all and then due to regulations and liabilities and all the BS that goes with it, the kids never got to use them. Some went out on their own, had a bad time and will likely never give sailing another chance.

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4 hours ago, rgeek said:

 

At least, I think, 5 of the major sailing nations now follow this policy, although one of them (GBR) has suficient depth in order to table sailors in all events. Many smaller nations also focus their effort highly selectively based on performance criteria and wildcard places at the last games went pretty deep. Whatever the reason and cause it still impacts on the quality of the competition. The IOC have passed comment, so this is not an idle observation.

The best singular? That's a rather semantic game. Has the Finn had the best 3 sailors at any of the last 3 Olympic games for example? Since 2, if not all 3, where from GBR that's questionable.

How many times have we heard "it's harder to qualify than it is to compete at the games"? Enough.

The 1 country, 1 place also seems to be having an impact at a national level. High Performance ops are now focused on small numbers of individuals rather than squads with a wider national impact. If you're not the medal race candidate or there, often now international, training partner forget about it. The developing trend now is for total disconnection from the domestic sailing schene with sailors from a young age disappearing into international sailing academies.

 

Are you high?

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To keep this thread on track with the subject title, here is what Andy Hunt had to say today about the voting irregularities regarding the double handed Olympic boat.  Pretty sure Sarah Sanders is moonlighting for WS now.... Stay tuned....plenty of people are not happy with this, and actions are going to be taken.

 

From: World Sailing Executive Office <office@sailing.org>
Date: Tue, Dec 4, 2018, 20:51
Subject: Council Voting Update
To: World Sailing Executive Office <office@sailing.org>
Cc: Andy Hunt <andy.hunt@sailing.org>

Dear Council Members,

 Following the publishing of the draft Council minutes, there have been a number of emails circulating that have suggested that the recording of voting at the Council meeting may have been incorrect.

 We operate with the highest level of transparency in our decision-making processes for the sport, which includes distributing the full voting record with the minutes of the meeting when requested and a full video record being made available live and for playback on our website of the meeting.

 Three Council members have formally notified the World Sailing Executive, that they believe that one or more of their votes were incorrectly recorded during the vote on Proposal 1 of Submission 037-18.

 The World Sailing Board reviewed the information from the Executive Office on the voting procedure during its monthly Board call on the 3 December 2018.

 Each Council member had a unique voting unit (ID) which was initially allocated on a random basis and then each unit was signed for by the Council member.  The voting system records the votes sent from each unit against its unique ID.

 All voting units were individually tested within the meeting room on the previous evening before the meeting to ensure that they recorded a correct vote against each button: 1,2,3 (yes, no, abstain).  Each unit was then retested for connectivity on the morning of the Council meeting and all units were operating correctly. 

 We have reviewed the technical reports from the voting system (as provided by the voting company) and the results published in the minutes to check that there are no discrepancies.  In addition, at the start of the Council meeting, two test votes were undertaken, and the results are recorded. The purpose of the test vote is to ensure that all voting units were correctly transmitting the voting selection made and if not, they were replaced, and the Council member re-signed for the replacement unit. 

Having reviewed this information, it is likely that any claimed 'errors' in voting are due to either pressing the wrong button for yes, no or abstain (1,2,3) or pressing a button too early before the voting is open or too late after the vote was closed -  or not at all during the period when the voting was open, to correctly record their vote. Where there was no selection whatsoever recorded from a unit for a particular vote, it is indicated by a blank entry. During the meeting it was made clear that the indicator would signal green on the voting pads once the vote was registered and after the signal the votes are registered accordingly.

The voting units of the Council members who are suggesting that their votes were not recorded correctly, were used at the AGM and we have analysed whether there are any misreported votes from those MNA members or any pattern of votes not being recorded at all on these units and there are none.

The Council minutes record what happened at the meeting and we have always used the electronic record produced by the voting equipment as a reliable record of the votes taken. The same electronic voting procedure has been in use since at least 2009.

The World Sailing Board has asked the independent Chair of the Audit Committee to also review the electronic voting procedure that was used and to report to the Board on his findings and to make any recommendations for future electronic votes. 

Under the Regulations, the contents of the minutes are a matter for the chairman of the meeting having considered the comments raised by Council members. In addition, the World Sailing constitution states: “Where minutes of meetings are proven incorrect (e.g. misspelling or incorrect reference), the formal documents of that meeting shall be changed.”.  This point is being confirmed by the Constitution Committee, however the Board’s view pending this confirmation is the minutes should remain as written and the votes recorded as generated by the voting system. 

Consequentially, whilst we understand that three Council members may have wished to have made a different selection on their voting pad, or indeed to have made a selection at all, there is no conclusive evidence to show any failure of the voting system and the record of the votes should remain as recorded. 

The entire meeting can be reviewed on the video of the live stream of the Council meeting on our website and I hope this clarifies this matter.

Kind regards,

Andy

Andy Hunt

Chief Executive Officer

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3 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

Understand, I am not condoning reckless abandon. I would not suggest that any 'ol joe blow can grab his kayak and hit the inlet with 20 kids.

I just happen to see a gap locally of people who cannot attend legit YC programs (only one around and the program is...a joke and cost prohibitive) and there is no shortage of highly experienced sailors eager to share their passion for sailing and help teach the next generation. Regulation and red-tape keep them at bay.

Years ago a local group had businesses donate everything needed to build opti's (just the hulls), had dozens of kids join a building program, finished them all and then due to regulations and liabilities and all the BS that goes with it, the kids never got to use them. Some went out on their own, had a bad time and will likely never give sailing another chance.

Have you ever actually run a junior program? There is no law, rule, or regulation from any random guy at the yacht club teaching any random kid how to sail a boat. If you want something happening on a schedule that parents can rely on, it gets a lot more complicated.

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21 hours ago, PeterHuston said:

Consequentially, whilst we understand that three Council members may have wished to have made a different selection on their voting pad, or indeed to have made a selection at all, there is no conclusive evidence to show any failure of the voting system and the record of the votes should remain as recorded. 

Its a real IT industry response (I used to work in it): "our system is definitely wonderful and couldn't possibly have stuffed up, and BTW there's no evidence gathered that would show whether it had stuffed up or not." So if there's a discrepancy it must be the users' fault.

 

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23 hours ago, rgeek said:

@Christian

Ben Aisley, Gyles Scott, Ed Wright.

 

Are you saying Giles wouldn't have medaled in London had been there?

https://www.sail-world.com/news/195867/GBR-Finn-sailors-claim-Europeans-podium-hat-trick

I don't know - and you don't either.  Sure Gbr has some good Finn sailors - and so do a small number of other countries.  If you look at the past ten years of Finn Gold Cups it is certainly not completely dominated by crooked teeth

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Now who's smoking something. Last 10 years of Gold Cups? GBR won just over 1/3rd of all medals including 7 golds. 2 medalists in 4 years. In terms of depth there are several other countries at the Gold Cup with more than one sailors who would be at the Olympics if it wasn't for the 1 nation, 1 sailor rule.

The Olympics is the Olympics because it's the Olympics. But the deepest fleet? May be not.

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24 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Now who's smoking something. Last 10 years of Gold Cups? GBR won just over 1/3rd of all medals including 7 golds. 2 medalists in 4 years. In terms of depth there are several other countries at the Gold Cup with more than one sailors who would be at the Olympics if it wasn't for the 1 nation, 1 sailor rule.

The Olympics is the Olympics because it's the Olympics. But the deepest fleet? May be not.

Definitely not.

The Olympics is now just a tv show, and it’s getting worse. If US Sailing was smart, and they are not, they’d figure out a way to get the  Kardashian’s on the sailing team.

 

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46 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

Definitely not.

The Olympics is now just a tv show, and it’s getting worse. If US Sailing was smart, and they are not, they’d figure out a way to get the  Kardashian’s on the sailing team.

 

No, it's not "just a TV show"...  I don't think there's another event that can claim the best sailors title... plenty of others where the competing sailors are "better" than the Olympians at what they do (eg the Vendee, the A/C) but nothing that compares... 

 Plenty of sports people don't compete at the Olympics in their sport for a variety of reasons. Some of them might be "better" than those who do. Then again they might not... it's still the Olympics.  If you're a sprinter you might miss out because of an illness, or an injury, or because you can't cope with the pressure. Whole teams have missed because of terrorism or political issues. I'm sure there are any number of sailors that could attend if they had more money, or a more supportive MNA, or the right connections, or, or, or...

 It's still the Olympics.  It still matters, inasmuch as any event matters... the medals don't come easy...

Cheers,

              W.

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On 12/3/2018 at 6:00 PM, Meat Wad said:

Sailing should just be removed from the Olympics. It is never a competition of the best in the world, just a bunch of countries that do not belong there.

On 12/4/2018 at 12:12 AM, WGWarburton said:

 That's quite a claim. What makes you think it's not the best in the world that race there? 

Cheers,

               W.

Just look at the Finn class. Only 1 frome each nation even though the top 3 in any given year are Brits.

You should have to qualify for the Olympics in a given class regardless of your nation. Much like the Track and Field qualifying at various World events.

 

On 12/4/2018 at 12:07 PM, McGyver said:

Yes, and the 100 meter dash belongs in the Olympics, running from Miami to Baltimore doesn't.

YEA, the 100M event is a great example.
The worlds best Qualify. Not a bunch of 3rd world countries that cannot get their ass out of the way and fall behind.

 

You must meet world standards, not your country standards. This is another great reason to remove control of sailing from the Brits. They fuck everything up they touch.

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For those who don't venture to the front page, here is my article on this subject:

 

Sailing Tyranny

 

“Forget the myth that Scuttlebutt has created about World Sailing. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand”.  (apology to Deep Throat)

“If in winning changes of the classes in the Olympics you’ve lost the respect of the global sailing community, you’ve won nothing” (apology to Elvstrom)

“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

If the opposite of Anarchy is Tyranny, then given the recent actions of the governing body it is time for that entity to be renamed as World Sailing Tyranny.  There is no greater example of tyranny in sailing right now than the way World Sailing has handled the removal of the Finn in the Olympics to be replaced by a boat in an event that has never been run.

To recap; last month at the World Sailing Annual General Meeting, based on a last minute Presidential submission a vote was taken by the Council as to whether the Finn should remain as an Olympic class, or be replaced by a mix-gender doublehanded boat for an offshore event of over 48 hours in duration.  The Finn was flicked, by one vote.  It was only on Monday of this week that the votes as recorded were made available to the voters.  At least three of the voters noted immediately that their votes were cast incorrectly.  I am now in receipt of an email, with significant back up data, that shows a forth vote was recorded incorrectly.  Other publications have done an exhaustive analysis showing how the electronic voting system works, or doesn’t in this case.   

The core issue isn’t whether the Finn should be in the Olympics now that it has been dropped in favor of this mixed gender double handed event that does not yet exist within the sport. The core issue is the way the decision was made, with discussions in secret by the World Sailing Executive Committee, with a submission foisted upon the Council at the last minute.  What everyone needs to understand is this: if World Sailing will replace the Finn, after much long and contentious debate six months ago when it was retained, they will do it to you, no matter in what class or event you sail, exactly the same way.  The World Sailing Board has proven that they work in secret and cannot be trusted to maintain a decision.  

Andy Hunt, World Sailing CEO, in his mea culpa to the MNA’s on the voting irregularity earlier this week, said World Sailing operates under the highest levels of transparency.  That is pure and utter bullshit. 

If World Sailing was so transparent, that last minute submission would not have come as a surprise to the Council, and especially the Finn class.

If World Sailing was so transparent, they would not only allow and encourage, but require the members of the Board to speak in public on any and all issues.  Same with US Sailing. Both of those organizations have limited the ability for Board members to speak to the public.  When was the last time you read something from a Board member of either entity opine in public about any issue, particularly a contentious issue, especially in opposition to what the majority of the Board wants?  The Mafia has more members talk than either of these organizations.

Here’s a question: has World Sailing retained the firm of Squire Patton Boggs to represent them in a matter about who on the Board, or staff, is leaking information about their decisions and actions?    If they have retained this firm for this purpose, what does that say about their level of transparency?  Why is anything at World Sailing, other than employee medical records and maybe some disciplinary issues involving juniors, secret?  You’d think they are dealing with something like a drug patent on the cure for cancer, or information about Russian election hacking.  They aren’t.  They are dealing with a sport that its best is supposed to be about fun, self-reliance and the freedom that comes from stretching your personal abilities on the water. 

To wit:  I’ve heard several different things about this vote over the course of this week, both involving Gary Jobson.  Gary and I used to be fairly close.  We don’t speak anymore because, in my view, he changed from supporting sailors to supporting the bureaucracy that constrains, limits and has proven to abuse sailor’s rights.  Never the less, I know his tendencies pretty well. Rumor one was that he was orchestrating the double handed keelboat, and was being paid under the table by the builder, that there were contracts which could prove all this.  Cleary, Gary likes to make money off of sailing, but I also know he’s not stupid enough to do something that would be fundamentally corrupt, especially financially.  The second rumor was that when the World Sailing Board had their meeting on Monday, three members of the Board wanted a revote on the decision on including the double handed boat in the Olympics - Scott Perry, Ana Sanchez and Jobson. After debate Perry was convinced to go to the other side, but Sanchez and Jobson remained firm in their position that a revote should happen. That part I actually believe. But the thing is, we’ll never really know, because the only message that is allowed to come from World Sailing is that it was the voters fault for pushing the wrong button on the electronic voting device.  What baffles me about Jobson is that he literally made his career by sailing with the “Mouth of the South”. You’d think he’d have learned from Ted Turner the value of speaking up, especially when it’s the right thing to do, for the greater good of the sport.  Now, because of his silence, he is allowing the actions and required non-public comment of Board members to have him painted in a very bad light.  Gary, you know very well that Anderson and Hunt have the organization sailing into a shitstorm. Do you want to spend the next couple of years bailing the bilge, or are you finally going to grab the wheel and steer the World Sailing ship back on course?  Why after a lifetime of service to the sport would you allow a guy like Andy Hunt, who probably can’t even tie a bowline, to lead your legacy off the cliff?

How did we get to this mess? In this specific instance, it was one bad decision leading to another bad decision.  It started with putting kites into the Olympics under the notion of being given two more medals by the IOC.  When that didn’t happen and we were stuck with the current 10 medals, cuts had to be made, some classes were bound to be removed.   

The prevailing theory is that the IOC want entertaining TV, and kites will help promote sailing. This is about as logical as saying the pizza delivery fish will be here as soon she gets on her rabbit.  If Kites in the Olympics will help the sport of sailing, where exactly is the detailed plan about all this, other than a simply pithy one-line statement?  That idea is a total crock, kites in the Olympics will not help sailing, they will help kiting. There is no specific plan to use televised Olympic sailing to help the sport, if there is, why hasn’t it been presented in detail?

If kites are such a great thing for sailing and World Sailing is so attractive to kites, how come only 11 women showed up for the World Sailing World Championship this summer?  If it’s such a great event with such great competition how come only 3 women of those 11 finished all the races. Half the fleet had more letters in their final score than a bowl of Alphabet soup.

While many people want to see stability and thoughtfully considered reasoned decisions take place regarding boats and events in the Olympics, we are all best served to deal with the reality which is this: given the way World Sailing is operating, plan on more abrupt change.  One thing could very well happen for the 2028 Olympics; the IOC may just finally say that sailing is out.  That might actually be the best thing for the sport, given current circumstances and lack of clear, enlightened leadership. 

If you sail and/or participate in an Olympic class, if you make your living in the class as an administrator or coach, you best understand what business the IOC is in. They are a TV production and distribution company.  Then understand what business World Sailing is in: they too are an event production company, and provider of talent for a TV show.

Some sailors and many coaches are fortunate enough to make a living via Olympic classes.  In the US, for almost every sailor, they are paying to play.  Coaches make a living, virtually no sailors in the US Sailing Team can say they make a decent living off of just competing on the Olympic sailing circuit. 

Sailing has been available for Olympic broadcast for decades.  It hasn’t really moved the needle in a perceptible way in terms of economic benefit for anyone but a few people who get paid for their involvement with the Olympic broadcast.

In basic human terms here is what has happened to the Finn class.  World Sailing has said they would go to the senior prom with the Finn class in 2020, but after that they are breaking up.  So what’s the Finn class going to do, be World Sailings bitch and pretend that everything is just fine for the next 18 months? If the Finn class is really smart like tractor and strong like bull, they will say en masse, “fine sweetheart, we’ll meet you at the prom, but we won’t see you before then”.  In other words Finn class, man up and boycott all other World Sailing events, especially the World Cup.

It is utterly beyond the realm of reason to think that four members of the World Sailing Council all independently made a mistake in their vote on this issue.  These are all people of long standing service to the sport, with impeccable records.  They all were vocal all week long during the AGM in support of the Finn.  Indeed, one is a lawyer.  So therefore, Andy Hunt is calling these people liars because he says the electronic voting system works flawlessly.  

If the World Sailing Board is so certain of the validity of their electronic voting system and the righteousness of flicking the Finn in favor of a new boat for a new event that has never before been contested, they why are they refusing to have a revote?

If you are the President of an MNA and you don’t ask immediately for a revote and an independent investigation (with the investigator picked by the Council, not the World Sailing Board or staff) into what has happened here, then you are just as much a part of the problem along with the World Sailing Board.

Why is the majority of the World Sailing Board trying so hard to make this issue go away?  What is the cover up all about?

If you want to end the World Sailing Tyranny, there is only one solution. 

Anarchy.

 

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Welcome back Peter, this sailing stuff is like a case of the clap you can't get rid of.

Me thinks Olympic Sailing jumped the shark long ago. Nobody is getting excited about votes that were recorded incorrectly. Because Olympic Sailing has become so detached from almost everyone.

Very few clubs have Olympic Class boats at them any longer. In the past Olympic sailors sailed with their home fleets on weekends, as the clubs intentionally hosted Olympic Class boats, now Olympic hopefuls have to tour the world racing all of the time. The engagement with commoners is gone.

In the past, I met Olympic sailors at the club who won medals, there was a constant buzz about the Olympics, the Olympic Trials, and many many made the trip to the Trials.  Now with the selection of boats that have no connection to most of us - that ship has sailed!

Go ahead and keep screwing up Olympic Sailing, it isn't meaningful any longer, the connection is lost.

 

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Welcome back Peter, this sailing stuff is like a case of the clap you can't get rid of.

Me thinks Olympic Sailing jumped the shark long ago. Nobody is getting excited about votes that were recorded incorrectly. Because Olympic Sailing has become so detached from almost everyone.

Very few clubs have Olympic Class boats at them any longer. In the past Olympic sailors sailed with their home fleets on weekends, as the clubs intentionally hosted Olympic Class boats, now Olympic hopefuls have to tour the world racing all of the time. The engagement with commoners is gone.

In the past, I met Olympic sailors at the club who won medals, there was a constant buzz about the Olympics, the Olympic Trials, and many many made the trip to the Trials.  Now with the selection of boats that have no connection to most of us - that ship has sailed!

Go ahead and keep screwing up Olympic Sailing, it isn't meaningful any longer, the connection is lost.

 

I don't care about the Olympics any more.  

What I care about is that WS uses the rules and regulations developed for and because of the Olympics to control everything else in the sport, and their abuse of process thereof.

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It's been widely reported that there were voting irregularities in Sarasota when voting in the Offshore boat for the future Olympics. 4 people report their votes were recorded incorrectly. The companies equipment used for voting states it is not to be used for vote tallying, but rather get a pulse of the audience using them:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2018/12/a-sad-day-for-sailing.html

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/12/19/world-mind-fuck/

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2018/12/07/WS-Pressure-is-mounting-on-World-Sailings-CEO-and-Board-–-the-MUST-READ-polite-but-firm-demand-letter-from-South-American-national-authorities-there-was-some-defect-irregularity-or-external-sabotage-in-the-voting?fbclid=IwAR3qJqHB8A8DK7rbgrwPqyrRoreaDYJ0dvR5ooJkp91k7fqgh6GlfQTA7D8

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212753/Finn-proponents-said-to-have-voted-against-class

Even the AP takes a shot at it https://www.apnews.com/b8cbfdd8a0874c21b03d522e5502904c

Picked up by the Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ex-sailing-chief-questions-voting-on-class-for-2024-games/2018/12/10/b5e415c0-fccb-11e8-a17e-162b712e8fc2_story.html?noredirect=on&amp;utm_term=.170683712e34

And then there was one sole writer out there who thinks denial is a river in South America providing support to the wrongdoing at World Sailing:

Editor's note: The internet gives people a voice which is not always good when details get lost. It is important to remember how the mixed singlehanded event was narrowly approved in May to save the Finn, but after six months, the execution of the event, and how the Finn would work for men and women, remained a mystery.
So the option to replace it with the offshore event was put forth in November and approved. What does get forgotten by those saddened about the removal of the Finn from the Olympics is how the Finn was never assured to be in Paris 2024 due to gender balance and equipment requirements.
So who is upset now? The Finn class is understandably so, but not the many countries that spoke in favor of the offshore submission. They saw this keelboat event as a means for them to more equally compete and to grow the sport in their countries. As for the internet noise, it often comes from people who are seeking attention.
There remains a lot of uncertainty in how the offshore event will be executed, but it does provide a distinctly different competition for the Olympics. As Sailing is not a hugely popular spectator sport, it is important for each of the ten Sailing events to stand clear of each other. The offshore event will do that.

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"So who is upset now? The Finn class is understandably so, but not the many countries that spoke in favor of the offshore submission. They saw this keelboat event as a means for them to more equally compete and to grow the sport in their countries. As for the internet noise, it often comes from people who are seeking attention."

I'm not sure who this is commenting but it sounds like he or she doesn't understand a few things.

1. Before the Laser, many women used to sail Finns. In the 90s I would race against a few of them still, usually from places like Newport Beach where it's lightish mostly, then the righting moment didn't matter so much. If two 150 lb women are racing against each other in Finns then they're equal, just like the (rare) women who sail Stars. So women can and do sail Finns, and could do so with a smaller main more easily.

2. If (as seems likely due to budget and SMOD pressures) the adopted keelboat is a Pogo 3 (http://www.pogostructures.com/en/fiche-bateau/pogo-3/) then you are looking at a $100k investment to just get off the dock. Add in getting to the dock and then travelling to all the WS required events to qualify (they put the world in World Sailing for a reason), coaching, preparateur, etc. and we have now gotten about $200k min/year just to show up and lose. So I'm not sure who saw this as "a means for them to more equally compete and to grow the sport in their countries" but I sense it wasn't the poor, huddled masses from 3rd world countries unless they happened to be kleptocrat related.

3. If the Pogo or similar is adopted this is an automatic French medal, maybe not gold, though that's pretty likely. And any who actually want to compete will need to be based in France, probably Atlantic side, to train competitively. Ask the English who do this already to try to compete, they actually learn French! Sure other countries could replicate this at great cost, maybe the Chinese have convinced themselves that they can hire the French pros who won them their Volvo to show up for enough dollars (or francs) but it will be expensive. The French already are competitive in the Finn and the Finn has had for 30 years one of the strongest LDC outreach and training programs. Adding expensive keelboats is unlikely to level the playing field except for a few rare exceptions.

4. The worn out gripe that Finns are for fatties ignores the fattening of the world. Now the 470 or Laser aren't getting any faster or cheaper but the Finn is getting more advanced and the technique is incredibly athletic, ask Ainslie how hard it was to come back. Finns could be made cheaper, they could be made faster, the class is flexible enough to absorb that. The pinched stern will always make them squirrelly off wind but that's part of the challenge.

5. But the issue at hand is misstated, burying the lede, if you will. The issue is did voting irregularities occur and does it invalidate the vote? Is yes, then re-vote. And this time, ditch the moronic electronic voting, given the numbers involved just use paper ballots and get it done.

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8 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

It's been widely reported that there were voting irregularities in Sarasota when voting in the Offshore boat for the future Olympics. 4 people report their votes were recorded incorrectly. The companies equipment used for voting states it is not to be used for vote tallying, but rather get a pulse of the audience using them:

Yes WS voting fuck up caused by using a PowerPoint based thing designed for use in the classroom, seminars etc.

https://www.capterra.com/p/172761/TurningPoint/

 

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3 hours ago, Bruno said:

"So who is upset now? The Finn class is understandably so, but not the many countries that spoke in favor of the offshore submission. They saw this keelboat event as a means for them to more equally compete and to grow the sport in their countries. As for the internet noise, it often comes from people who are seeking attention."

I'm not sure who this is commenting but it sounds like he or she doesn't understand a few things.

1. Before the Laser, many women used to sail Finns. In the 90s I would race against a few of them still, usually from places like Newport Beach where it's lightish mostly, then the righting moment didn't matter so much. If two 150 lb women are racing against each other in Finns then they're equal, just like the (rare) women who sail Stars. So women can and do sail Finns, and could do so with a smaller main more easily.

2. If (as seems likely due to budget and SMOD pressures) the adopted keelboat is a Pogo 3 (http://www.pogostructures.com/en/fiche-bateau/pogo-3/) then you are looking at a $100k investment to just get off the dock. Add in getting to the dock and then travelling to all the WS required events to qualify (they put the world in World Sailing for a reason), coaching, preparateur, etc. and we have now gotten about $200k min/year just to show up and lose. So I'm not sure who saw this as "a means for them to more equally compete and to grow the sport in their countries" but I sense it wasn't the poor, huddled masses from 3rd world countries unless they happened to be kleptocrat related.

3. If the Pogo or similar is adopted this is an automatic French medal, maybe not gold, though that's pretty likely. And any who actually want to compete will need to be based in France, probably Atlantic side, to train competitively. Ask the English who do this already to try to compete, they actually learn French! Sure other countries could replicate this at great cost, maybe the Chinese have convinced themselves that they can hire the French pros who won them their Volvo to show up for enough dollars (or francs) but it will be expensive. The French already are competitive in the Finn and the Finn has had for 30 years one of the strongest LDC outreach and training programs. Adding expensive keelboats is unlikely to level the playing field except for a few rare exceptions.

4. The worn out gripe that Finns are for fatties ignores the fattening of the world. Now the 470 or Laser aren't getting any faster or cheaper but the Finn is getting more advanced and the technique is incredibly athletic, ask Ainslie how hard it was to come back. Finns could be made cheaper, they could be made faster, the class is flexible enough to absorb that. The pinched stern will always make them squirrelly off wind but that's part of the challenge.

5. But the issue at hand is misstated, burying the lede, if you will. The issue is did voting irregularities occur and does it invalidate the vote? Is yes, then re-vote. And this time, ditch the moronic electronic voting, given the numbers involved just use paper ballots and get it done.

Craig Leweck from Scuttlebutt wrote what you responded to.

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Olympic sailing jumped the shark?  As we say out here in flyover land, yah sure, you betcha.

I was once a sorta aspirant, worked a full-time job, did the regatta circuit in 470s starting in 1972, managed to qualify for and sail in the '76 Olympic Trials.  We were one of the faster teams in the midwest, but were only good enough to be mid-fleet against the guys who lived out of their vans and swiped fruit from Florida trees to be able sail in the winter.  Back then it took dedication, not money, to be consistently and seriously fast.  Nevertheless, we held the Olympics in a kind of scorn, opining that the Nats or Worlds provided a far higher level of competition, for they didn't have the artificial limits on who actually got to go and race that the Olympics did (that being said, I still wear my Trials T-shirt).

The first shark-jumping was the entire concept of the medal race, clearly a bogus attempt to synthesize some b*llsh*t sense of drama.  For me, 'drama' was Pattison sitting out the last race in Mexico, after posting enough bullets to nail the gold, the better to let the other guys wrestle over silker and bronze.  Sportsmanship ain't never gonna triumph over drama for television.

The latest - and final - shark-jumping was the series of 'decisions' that dumped the Finn and introduced an offshore 'event'.  Hell, I'm too small to be competitive in a Laser, let alone a Finn, but ain't the Olympics meant to be a celebration of athleticism?  And special  and separate events for women?  I have sailed with and against women in one designs and offshore, and not a single one has been a shrinking violet.  Some have been taller and stronger than I was, some have been faster.  All were serious competitors.

As a septuagenarian, I see no need for a boat that caters to an old fart, as it seemed Dragons were best suited for.  Let us, instead, have boats that are suitable for a range of normal humans, and let whomever wants to, male or female, race in them.  If women are the ones getting medals, then more power to them!

Until there's a substantial change, I'm done with World Sailing (hell, they can't even agree on what their damned categories ought to mean) and their politics, getting close to being done with US Sailing, and am totally bored with Olympic sailing.

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