onepointfivethumbs

Is the J/24 worth it?

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I have another two(ish) years of school and my brother has three, neither of us knows where we will end up for work. We talked about getting one of the many used J/24's that pop up for cheap since it's a pretty universal class with fleets on all four coasts, big enough to sleep on, and stable enough to bring girlfriends and a cooler of beer.

However, between replacing core, the verm job, and the laundry list of upgrades mandatory to make the '24 go fast, plus sails, running rigging, and all the ancillary costs of owning a boat, I'm having my doubts on whether the J/24 is the best choice. It seems like the cheapest option but also the biggest headache to get a competitive boat on the line.

Thoughts?

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41 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

get a Moore 24.

Please do show me where you can get a moore 24 for dirt cheap J24 prices.

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11 hours ago, Varan said:

Is it worth it? If you have an active fleet nearby, most definitely. 

+100.... there is nothing like OD racing to forge your skills

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J/24 BOAT GRANT PROGRAM! Go to the USA J/24 class website and fill out an application. They give you a race ready J/24 + reimburse you for regatta costs for one year. Some of the best sailors in the class are involved in the program and will be available to you for advice and go fast tips.

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On 11/27/2018 at 3:58 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

I have another two(ish) years of school and my brother has three, neither of us knows where we will end up for work. We talked about getting one of the many used J/24's that pop up for cheap since it's a pretty universal class with fleets on all four coasts, big enough to sleep on, and stable enough to bring girlfriends and a cooler of beer.

However, between replacing core, the verm job, and the laundry list of upgrades mandatory to make the '24 go fast, plus sails, running rigging, and all the ancillary costs of owning a boat, I'm having my doubts on whether the J/24 is the best choice. It seems like the cheapest option but also the biggest headache to get a competitive boat on the line.

Thoughts?

Regardless of the purchase price, unless you get a great deal, it will cost you $10 000 + to get a J24 up to speed. Add to that the mandatory 2-3 genoas a year if you want to stay competitive depending on the number of regattas you want to race. Then there's carrying a crew of five to regattas.

Add to that the dick pros that are mostly there at regattas to beat their customers and sell them newer sails. All that to say that you should go for a more modern design not so much gangrened by pros, easier and cheaper to sail. Stay away from the J24. You will thank me.   

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5 hours ago, Plumber said:

Regardless of the purchase price, unless you get a great deal, it will cost you $10 000 + to get a J24 up to speed. Add to that the mandatory 2-3 genoas a year if you want to stay competitive depending on the number of regattas you want to race. Then there's carrying a crew of five to regattas.

Add to that the dick pros that are mostly there at regattas to beat their customers and sell them newer sails. All that to say that you should go for a more modern design not so much gangrened by pros, easier and cheaper to sail. Stay away from the J24. You will thank me.   

Crew will probably be four-up since our average is around 200lb. 

Is it really $10,000? I understand that re-coring, the verm job and moving the keel are pretty arduous processes but are they that beyond mechanically-inclined twentysomethings? 

Looking at other boats in that size range, in my current neck of the woods J/70's are the dbag fleet of choice, and it seems like that's a national trend. 

What else fits the "cheap post-college keelboat" niche?

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There are two kinds of sailors. Those who understand and appreciate the J/24, and whiners who don't know how to sail a 4/5 person boat with a symmetrical spinnaker and a genoa.

My brother and I got a J/24 in our late teens and had it for 9 years. We and our friends had a blast with it and was a great boat to get started with keel boat one design as well as local PHRF sailing. It was a decent cruiser as well.

Unfortunately $10,000 is the correct estimate for a semi-competitive boat ($5,000 boat, $5,000 cheap, but decent set of sails).There are plenty of boats out there so you don't have to buy a project. Don't spend your time removing vermiculite or replacing soft core. Spend your time out on the water!

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I would also budget in any hatch conversion if you're going down the fixer-upper route.  Its been a while since I looked into it, but think that can be somewhat pricey if you keep it OD compliant.

as for phrf keelboats on the cheap, depending on your region, I'd look at Holder 20, Santana 20, Evelyn 25 (if you can find a nice dry one, they are the PHRF killer) or Capri 25.

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On 12/4/2018 at 7:35 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

Crew will probably be four-up since our average is around 200lb. 

Is it really $10,000? I understand that re-coring, the verm job and moving the keel are pretty arduous processes but are they that beyond mechanically-inclined twentysomethings? 

Looking at other boats in that size range, in my current neck of the woods J/70's are the dbag fleet of choice, and it seems like that's a national trend. 

What else fits the "cheap post-college keelboat" niche?

J70 are developing into another pro/money driven class. I've heard some pretty bad stuff about racing in that fleet.

We raced last two years with a crew of 4. I actually like it more than racing with 5. More room to move around and actually stuff to  do for everybody.

Any Etchells in your area? Vipers?

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7 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

I would also budget in any hatch conversion if you're going down the fixer-upper route.  Its been a while since I looked into it, but think that can be somewhat pricey if you keep it OD compliant.

as for phrf keelboats on the cheap, depending on your region, I'd look at Holder 20, Santana 20, Evelyn 25 (if you can find a nice dry one, they are the PHRF killer) or Capri 25.

Pearson Flyer!

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The real question is "what is the "it" that you're trying to determine the worth of"?  What are the goals of your program? What's your budget? Are there fleets within reasonable driving distance that will help you grow the way you want?

Honestly, you haven't given enough information to determine if the boat will suit your goals (other than sparking bar BS); I think you need to spend more/deeper time threshing out the specific goals of your program and then reevaluating the class and the individual boat in accordance to those goals.

This is an interesting tool.

https://www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/goal-setting-workbook

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53 minutes ago, Slim said:

Pearson Flyer!

I was trying to keep it under 24-26 feet or so, but yeah, you can find those for cheap as well.

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Well, If you are going west in the next 2-3 years Den/Oregon Cali Then look into a S20 or 2, or 3..  They can be had for around 2,500 and really competitive for 4.  Fleet is growing, 25 at Dillon for nats in 2016.  PHRF killer in the light,  Holds a cooler and can sleep a couple 20 somethings in a pinch.  Heck start a fleet...  :)

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Why not a J/22?  For $10k you can get a very nice race boat.  Cheap to campaign and really easy to pull around on the trailer.

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Its not about the boat, its about the fleet.  If you have a good fleet and want to learn, then the boat self-selects.

IF there is a local fleet, then J-24s teach a whole lot about rig trim, boat-on-boat tactics and sail handling.  They do NOT go fast.  But bang for the buck a get-started cheapish race boat, not much surpasses them  But, they are pain boxes.  Good sails are available post-nationals or worlds to ease the pain. 

Moore 24s are faster, more fun, also pain-boxes and are completely NOT one design.  Nor are they particularly symmetrical.  They belong on the Columbia Gorge making straight wakes and/or huge splashes.  

The others mentioned are all good, but...it's about the fleet.  They made more than 5,000 J-24s, ten times the others.

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This doesn't really answer your question, but: as you are currently in college, why not sail for your college program? It will handle all the headaches (letting you focus on actual sailing, as well as your studies), plus you'll benefit from coaching.

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On 11/27/2018 at 3:58 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

I have another two(ish) years of school and my brother has three, neither of us knows where we will end up for work. We talked about getting one of the many used J/24's that pop up for cheap since it's a pretty universal class with fleets on all four coasts, big enough to sleep on, and stable enough to bring girlfriends and a cooler of beer.

However, between replacing core, the verm job, and the laundry list of upgrades mandatory to make the '24 go fast, plus sails, running rigging, and all the ancillary costs of owning a boat, I'm having my doubts on whether the J/24 is the best choice. It seems like the cheapest option but also the biggest headache to get a competitive boat on the line.

Thoughts?

it is worth it

my brother bought a J24 his senior year of high school, he loves the boat

if your gonna buy one I would suggest finding a competitive fleet like in newport

don't get a moore 24

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On 12/6/2018 at 7:22 PM, Will said:

Why not a J/22?  For $10k you can get a very nice race boat.  Cheap to campaign and really easy to pull around on the trailer.

yeah but it's a dying uncompetitive fleet

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On 12/4/2018 at 7:35 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

Crew will probably be four-up since our average is around 200lb. 

Is it really $10,000? I understand that re-coring, the verm job and moving the keel are pretty arduous processes but are they that beyond mechanically-inclined twentysomethings? 

Looking at other boats in that size range, in my current neck of the woods J/70's are the dbag fleet of choice, and it seems like that's a national trend. 

What else fits the "cheap post-college keelboat" niche?

I owned and campaigned a J24 in the heyday of the class.  A word of caution, it was a relatively expensive annual cost.  There are four sails. If you want to be competitive, you will replace at least two per year, and four every other year.  The hull has to be kept in perfect shape and shit just breaks on boats.  Sheets and lines need replacing etc.  

I dont want to put you off because we had some great years in our J24.

We had a blast for all the reasons you mentioned. We slept on the boat at regattas. We could haul a cooler on the boat for beers on weekend afternoons and our girlfriends could come as crew.   I even cruised up the coast of Maine single handed one summer arriving in time for the OD J24 start in the Camden -Castine regatta.

But if I was twenty something again,  I would consider something smaller and more modern. Its better to spend your annual dollars on perfecting a smaller boat than always being stretched and having to compromise on a bigger boat. Depreciation is the lowest cost of sailing.  The really cheap boats are impossible to sell afterwards.

The other important criteria, is to look at the scene.  Half the fun of racing sailboats is the people you hang out with. When I was late 20 something/early 30 something the J24 had a very lively social scene of the same age group.  I think that might have shifted to some other classes now.

FWIW, the J22 that someone mentioned is an excellent boat...I had one of those before my J24. In hindsight the J22 is a much better sailing boat than the J24 and much easier to maintain. 

Also consider a boat that is easier to transport. Its great fun to travel to the occasional regatta.  Im biased but something like a Viper 640 has a lot of younger sailors, is easy to sail and inexpensive to run. Used older boats under hull#90 are around $10-$15k which might be above your budget but they wont depreciate much.  But its more of a race boat.

Depending on your location, what are the keelboat fleets?  Sonars...are reasonably inexpensive to run and it doesnt cost much to be competitive. Etchells are expensive to be competitive.  J70s will be absurdly expensive at the moment..still a top dollar program.

The Lightening is having a resurgence with a younger crowd but its not really a keel boat.

Overall.....its great that you are thinking this way. Go for it.  The first dollar I made out of college, I spent on a sail boat and I never regretted it. I have absolutely no fond memories of my first car but my first boat was very special.  Its really cool to be doing it with your brother.

 

 

 

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Just to add to the discussion....

As a former J24 owner, I can tell you this:  If there is a fleet of J24's in your area, and you can race OD, its a great boat.  Many boats that will be very competitive at the local level can be had for well under $10K, including a trailor and decent  (enough) sails.  For local and regional level racing, used sails are plentiful, inexpensive, and acceptable.  Hell, the local J24 hotshot young guy that kicked my ass all over the race course my last year with the boat won Cleveland Race Week and most recently Districts, with a 1700's (IIRC) series boat and not brand new sails.  Being a good sailor first really helps.  

At any rate, you can spend very little money on the boat and upgrades, and sail competitively.  Will you be nationals podium competitive, or top 10 worlds competitive...most likely not.  But most first year (or even 5 year) J24 sailors aren't going to reach that level of competitiveness immediately anyway.  So don't think that throwing a shit ton of cash at your new to you J24 is absolutely needed in order to get something in the water.  

Once you get your 24, you will find that they are a blast to sail, especially for a young owner/crew.  I was 25 when I bought mine, and LOVE LOVE LOVED it for the first 5 years.  The wind would pipe up, the beers would come out, and she was a blast.  It was great sailing, and great memories for a crew in our mid to late 20's.  After 30 hit, I just LOVED the boat.  It started to get to be a chore to push it to the dry sail crane, and as such, we started only using the boat on Wednesday night for racing.  But it was still fun to sail.  At 35, I found a great deal on a Tartan 10, so sold the 24 and moved into the world of big(er) boats.  But I also have a family, and the kids (7 and 5) appreciate the 10 for its size and the fact that because its an in water boat, we actually use the thing more than once a week.  But I digress.  I don't regret selling the 24, but more importantly, I don't regret one bit owning the 24.  It was a great boat for where I was in life when I bought it, and because of it I met some amazing people, forged awesome relationships, and just generally had a blast sailing.  

Honestly, if you are looking for something that is quick and sporty (enough), that you can sleep on, take friends out in, and just have a great time sailing, the 24 is about as good as it gets.  You can keep the boat in the water if you want to, and would probably use it more than if you kept it on a trailer, and for daysailing when you don't have the crew, or don't want to work too hard, the boat sails fine with the main and jib.  It won't go as fast of course, but for taking the girlfriends out, having a few sodas, and generally enjoying time on the water, its great.

My whole point here being is that this being Sailing Anarchy, most of the J24 sailors here are dyed in the wool competitive J24 sailors, or former crew on serious competitive boats, and they know what it takes to run a really competitive program.  Essentially, the same thing that makes airplanes fly....MONEY.  But for a local club racer (that does really well in PHRF, as well....the knowledge in boat handling, tactics, and tuning gained from sailing OD means that most of these boats/crews are used to being sailed at 95% or more performance, in all conditions...really helps on the PHRF course) that can serve as a fun daysailor and overnighter, I would not hesitate to recommend a J24.  

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eX 24’s are Repurposed J 24’s without all the heavy OD stuff. No Fukien Genoa’s. Think I C 24 but cheaper.

 

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Have you considered a 2-person dinghy you can afford rather than a J24 that you cannot? Most of the world's best sailors learned their trade in dinghies.

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On 12/4/2018 at 5:35 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

Crew will probably be four-up since our average is around 200lb. 

Is it really $10,000? I understand that re-coring, the verm job and moving the keel are pretty arduous processes but are they that beyond mechanically-inclined twentysomethings? 

Looking at other boats in that size range, in my current neck of the woods J/70's are the dbag fleet of choice, and it seems like that's a national trend. 

What else fits the "cheap post-college keelboat" niche?

There are so many good J24s out there with keels faired and vermiculite done, no, it's not $10,000.  You can also find boats that need work for super cheap and if you're willing to get your hands dirty, you can avoid the majority of that expense.  Do the vermiculite job yourself and it's $200-300.  Replace some soft core on the deck and it's $50-150.  The list goes on.  Fairing a keel is more about time than materials.

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Another fleet to consider but no fun for girlfriends is the Star.  You can get a great package for $2,500-3000.  No where to sleep though so cruising is out.

And having read through more of this thread, don't sweat the new sails.  I used to sail with a guy in the Newport, RI J24 fleet and we were constantly in the top group with out buying new sails each year.  It's more about your time in the boat than getting caught up in what people believe is the answer to the fleet which is constant new sails and pros on board. Sailing with your girlfriends counts as time in the boat too.  You'd be surprised how much better you will know your J24 after a few long low pressure sails for fun.  

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On 12/24/2018 at 8:46 AM, dogwatch said:

Have you considered a 2-person dinghy you can afford rather than a J24 that you cannot? Most of the world's best sailors learned their trade in dinghies.

I owned a 5O5 for a year and unfortunately had to sell it, I have also looked long and hard at the Star. Biggest downside is that the five-oh is very tippy and tweaky, and the Star can't really fit more than two or three people in a very narrow, shallow cockpit. Both fit my racing needs but aren't any good for daysailing with girls/nonsailors or overnighting, which would be ideal. J/24 seems the most universal boat that does all three which is why I ask, save for regional OD's like Cal 25's, Santana 20's, Moore 24's etc.

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50's are lovely boats but the fleets are limited to pockets of activity, 24's have decent levels of competition most areas.   And the fleet has changed from the old 80's attitude to mostly people that broke into the class and have come back to it.  A much different feel.

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On 12/25/2018 at 9:23 PM, learningJ24 said:

50's are lovely boats but the fleets are limited to pockets of activity, 24's have decent levels of competition most areas.   And the fleet has changed from the old 80's attitude to mostly people that broke into the class and have come back to it.  A much different feel.

Yes. But still plagued with marginal knowledge and respect of the RRS, and  bumper boat/nascar mentality. 

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"Yes. But still plagued with marginal knowledge and respect of the RRS, and  bumper boat/nascar mentality. "

Having sailed the boat predominately on the Texas Circuit, I really haven't seen that. What I've seen is mostly experienced older owners coming back to the boat and recruiting younger sailors to crew.  It happens occasionally, particularly collegiate sailors port tacking at weather mark, but 'no protest" regattas are more the norm than multiple protests. Impacts happen but they're tough old boats and alcohol is the traditional apology with the crews hanging out and laughing. But my experience is is only Texas, Oklahoma and Colorado.

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eX 24 are Repurposed J 24’s with no Genoa’s. $2000 for a non a blueprinted rat rod  is common in CA. Lengthen the fore stay and even non blueprinted one are fast. 

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On 12/28/2018 at 11:54 AM, kmcfast said:

eX 24 are Repurposed J 24’s with no Genoa’s. $2000 for a non a blueprinted rat rod  is common in CA. Lengthen the fore stay and even non blueprinted one are fast. 

Still pushing the EX, how big is the fleet now, 2? 

If you would only understand that making a boat slower and non OD conformant  is not what the sailors want, especially owners. Any boat can be de-powered to sail shorthanded without making modification that make the boat unable to compete under OD rules. The reason the J/24 is still actively sailed in both OD and PHRF is that for it's size and price it is a capable racing platform after all these years. Many of us who have raced OD in the J/24 class have raced against some of the best sailors in the world, sure we lost but it made us better sailors. 

The J/24 has been the all time champ in both longevity, boats sold and boats raced. There are few boats that near the success. What makes you think you can improve on this by de-powering it?

BTW; lengthening the forstay has been around since the second 24 came out of the mold, that's why it had to be limited in the OD rules. You should have just taken the time in rebuilding your local fleet and learning to sail....

 

FRENZY

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Bullet is a great boat....seen it compete for years in S.B.

So I was looking at boats for a while.  Thought about a SC27.....great boat for most conditions, but they're being snatched up in the Santa Cruz area.

I also considered a Moore 24.  Same thing...great boat, but getting grabbed by the guys up north.

Both boats are going for 10k+

Looked at a 1/4 ton boat locally..probably a great design of it's time, inboard, 10k with a phrf of 190ish.

Then there's a J24.  168 rating locally, for 5k.

Best bang/buck available.  Multiple tuning guides, always tons of sails for sale/etc.

 

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Id say they are worth it 100%. You'd have to look hard to find another keelboat thats as cheap as a j24, trailer-able, has such a large following, one that you can take anywhere and sail against other j24's

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On 1/15/2019 at 3:21 PM, sailorcolin said:

Id say they are worth it 100%. You'd have to look hard to find another keelboat thats as cheap as a j24, trailer-able, has such a large following, one that you can take anywhere and sail against other j24's

Yep!

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On 1/15/2019 at 3:21 PM, sailorcolin said:

Id say they are worth it 100%. You'd have to look hard to find another keelboat thats as cheap as a j24, trailer-able, has such a large following, one that you can take anywhere and sail against other j24's

You're kidding right. Not even looking at regional favorites like the Harbour 20, have you ever heard about the Star or the Etchells. You can buy a Star or Etchells and compete at the local and regional level at a much lower budget than the J24, and have a lot more fun than slugging around on that piece of crap. 

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Definitely worth it, easy, cheap, and fun. You dont like it, sell it for almost what you paid

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On 1/17/2019 at 4:48 PM, Plumber said:

You're kidding right. Not even looking at regional favorites like the Harbour 20, have you ever heard about the Star or the Etchells. You can buy a Star or Etchells and compete at the local and regional level at a much lower budget than the J24, and have a lot more fun than slugging around on that piece of crap. 

 

Now you must be kidding... Etchells are $10-40k, J24's are $2k-10k and I dont know a single person that sails Harbour 20 's on the east coast. 

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On 12/6/2018 at 7:22 PM, Will said:

Why not a J/22?  For $10k you can get a very nice race boat.  Cheap to campaign and really easy to pull around on the trailer.

Get a 24, don’t waste your time capsizing the 22

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On 1/17/2019 at 5:48 PM, Plumber said:

You're kidding right. Not even looking at regional favorites like the Harbour 20, have you ever heard about the Star or the Etchells. You can buy a Star or Etchells and compete at the local and regional level at a much lower budget than the J24, and have a lot more fun than slugging around on that piece of crap. 

Define crap, because Harbour 20s aren’t even present on the east coast and are slower than the 24 as well as the lack of a cabin below decks and the fact that I would race one and win in my turbo rig (modified) JY15 and win any day.

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1 hour ago, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Get a 24, don’t waste your time capsizing the 22

People that actually know how to sail don't capsize.  For some odd reason our Wed races have 12 to 16 J22s and 2 J24s. 

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4 hours ago, d'ranger said:

People that actually know how to sail don't capsize.  For some odd reason our Wed races have 12 to 16 J22s and 2 J24s. 

On the contrary, for ocean racing many skilled sailors have capsized them in Worlds, I have seen one capsize in the sound before in person. You will struggle to do that in a 24.

E4C54ED0-973C-443F-ABC7-49831F23968C.jpeg

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I capsize my JY15 all the time and it’s fun, refinishing deck wood and replacing soggy cushions in a J22 is not...

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On 2/12/2019 at 12:05 PM, JBOATTROUBLEMAKER said:

Define crap, because Harbour 20s aren’t even present on the east coast and are slower than the 24 as well as the lack of a cabin below decks and the fact that I would race one and win in my turbo rig (modified) JY15 and win any day.

Crap is having to to all sorts of tuning and mods to compensate for an awfully designed boat with tons of lee helm, crap is cramping 5 crew on a boat that can barely accommodate 4, crap is steering with absolutely no feel on the helm, crap is sailing in a class where knowledge (never mind respect) of the rules seems to be optional (Fuck it, we'll just take a 20% penalty...), crap is having to purchase a new genoa after 20 hours of use, crap is this bullshit of sending crew inside in the light stuff (imagine being a crew for the Toronto worlds, spending a few grand on the regatta, and having to spend the week inside the cabin), crap is hanging like possums on the lifelines for hiking, crap is, as a driver, getting snapped on the neck by the lifeline every time the trimmer climbs up on the rail. That sir is my definition of crap. 

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J24 in Maryland on a Gov't Auction site.  Looks like they broke the mast hitting a bridge or telephone pole but the hull looks good otherwise.

J24 in Maryland w/o a mast

Edit: Whoops, looks like they dropped it off the lift and broke the mast that way...some repairs required.

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

J24 in Maryland on a Gov't Auction site.  Looks like they broke the mast hitting a bridge or telephone pole but the hull looks good otherwise.

J24 in Maryland w/o a mast

Edit: Whoops, looks like they dropped it off the lift and broke the mast that way...some repairs required.

Based on the photos it would be easier to list what is not damaged.

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