DA-WOODY

Sailing Pro designation "V" Tattoo ... Any Difference ? what lasts longer ??

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So a Longtime Friend who "Was" kind of a Pro long ago when it paid No bills

grabs the wheel/stick of a Corinthian Yacht and Kicks 130+ Asses to come in 1st

Some tears fell as saying it wasn't fair on a Corinthian Yacht.

my Friend has Not been paid to do Anything on a boat in longer that most people have been around

and if ever paid received harley/if anything

So is the Tag like a Tattoo that will Haunt you forever or is there some amount of time when it fades away and you are Corinthian once again ??

Thoughts, Views, points of Rules welcomed 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh my Friend is 90 years Young :)

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I came through this  era. Not really making a living , but squeaking by working at sail lofts and learning how to do some rigging. Boat would pay expesenses to events and on the odd occasion I would get a modest daily rate. So yes a cat 3 back in the late 90’s. 

We always chuckled as the 6o year old receptionists from the sail loft who was invited sail occasionally on a Sunday race during summers was also a cat 3. But no one cared. Now at this same time if you were  an Italian sailing for a melges 24 , Farr 40, or Mumm30 and everyone new you were a full professional the classes turned a blind eye and let them all sail. Same with crews for Bermuda races. Politics would always prevail. One day I was a cat three, then the next day I was a cat 2 because the boat negotiated a deal to get their full crew approved. I could have cared less at the time as it was all just a joke. I just wanted to go sailing.

Back to your point, I think it comes down to the individual. If your friend is a well respected sailor in the community and has given back to the racing community and supported the local scene then I do not think a negative stigma of being a pro carries over through  the years. 

On the other hand if the said person is not respected and has  been a dick to that sailing community then he gets his due justice. 

Hard to know what the real circumstances you are speaking of.  I can  tell you  when I finally got to the point I could afford to purchase my own boat for the first time and jumped into a local class in a fairly remote sailing area I was incredibly respectful and did everything I could to earn the respect of the the local sailors. In the end I won a National Championship on some old school class as the first boat I ever skippered and made a lot of friends along the way. Even though  they all considered me a professional, but had not been active in racing for a number of years and was working in a different industry.. 

It is all about how you treat people, and how you respect your local sailing environment in my opinion.

 

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It depends... extraordinary local "pro" or hired gun. 

Not so long ago, I was rounding a mark on a mid-distance race and glanced at the equal-rated boat just behind me.  Among the owner and crew, the boat had 4 America's cups, 4-5 Olympic medals, maybe ten world championships, many more nationals, two professional coaches and one guy who was employed as PRO and instructor at a local club.  Everybody was glad they were on the course and knew that they were not ringers,...nobody had flown in for the day...just exceptional sailors.  We all welcome their participation with not a single grumble as they all gave back in many ways over many years.  

They did pass us eventually.   They hit a couple of shifts and made a better sail call.  That was just intolerable.

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44 minutes ago, bait said:

I came through this  era. Not really making a living , but squeaking by working at sail lofts and learning how to do some rigging. Boat would pay expesenses to events and on the odd occasion I would get a modest daily rate. So yes a cat 3 back in the late 90’s. 

We always chuckled as the 6o year old receptionists from the sail loft who was invited sail occasionally on a Sunday race during summers was also a cat 3. But no one cared. Now at this same time if you were  an Italian sailing for a melges 24 , Farr 40, or Mumm30 and everyone new you were a full professional the classes turned a blind eye and let them all sail. Same with crews for Bermuda races. Politics would always prevail. One day I was a cat three, then the next day I was a cat 2 because the boat negotiated a deal to get their full crew approved. I could have cared less at the time as it was all just a joke. I just wanted to go sailing.

Back to your point, I think it comes down to the individual. If your friend is a well respected sailor in the community and has given back to the racing community and supported the local scene then I do not think a negative stigma of being a pro carries over through  the years. 

On the other hand if the said person is not respected and has  been a dick to that sailing community then he gets his due justice. 

Hard to know what the real circumstances you are speaking of.  I can  tell you  when I finally got to the point I could afford to purchase my own boat for the first time and jumped into a local class in a fairly remote sailing area I was incredibly respectful and did everything I could to earn the respect of the the local sailors. In the end I won a National Championship on some old school class as the first boat I ever skippered and made a lot of friends along the way. Even though  they all considered me a professional, but had not been active in racing for a number of years and was working in a different industry.. 

It is all about how you treat people, and how you respect your local sailing environment in my opinion.

 

let's just say my Friend Epitomizes the Essence of Who has Given the Most to Promote the Sport of Sailing from the Bottom to the Top !!!!!

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There will always be haters. Out of the overall group if this person is who you express him to be then it is likely a small minority of habitual complainers who are making noise and turn the tide against this upstanding individual. Similar to how everything seems to be happening here in the states right now. 

Most likely if an overall poll was taken of the regatta registrants there was probably less of a complaint from the overwhelming majority. Which seems to be the case across all most of our issues these days. It seems to be the outliers attempting to control the thoughts for the overall group.

 

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^^^^^^ fyi it did not become an issue

brought up and dismissed in the same moment

lingering question:

How long should a Cat 3 Stamp remain

other end of spectrum one could turn Pro do 1 race and Never be considered for a Pro roll again

But fact remains "They Were Cat 3"

??????

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I can't remember the exact figure but as far as World Sailing is concerned it's only like 3 years to get out of being a group 3

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Me thinks the Corinthians doth protest to much. 

If I go sailing even in my fairly small club,  the chances are I'll be sailing against a sailing instructor mother,  a just missed the para lympics adult daughter,  a European tour competitor son Who works for a sail company and Sail company rigger father with many years experience. There are many others in the industry  in the club. 

  I would think it's hard for me to sail in any event in my or any nearby club without  Someone who doesn't work in the industry, many get assistance directly or indirectly from the sail companies / boat yards / boat builders.  We even have trophies, only for those who work in or around the river / industry  .

Come to that even some of the children are now doing European events and getting sponsorship.

 

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21 hours ago, Left Shift said:

It depends... extraordinary local "pro" or hired gun. 

Not so long ago, I was rounding a mark on a mid-distance race and glanced at the equal-rated boat just behind me.  Among the owner and crew, the boat had 4 America's cups, 4-5 Olympic medals, maybe ten world championships, many more nationals, two professional coaches and one guy who was employed as PRO and instructor at a local club.  Everybody was glad they were on the course and knew that they were not ringers,...nobody had flown in for the day...just exceptional sailors.  We all welcome their participation with not a single grumble as they all gave back in many ways over many years.  

They did pass us eventually.   They hit a couple of shifts and made a better sail call.  That was just intolerable.

that's a lot of people on one boat...  maybe they figured with all that weight , they were equal.

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25 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

that's a lot of people on one boat...  maybe they figured with all that weight , they were equal.

Well, there were some overlaps, but yeah, there were a lot of eyeballs looking out of that boat.

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21 hours ago, Left Shift said:

They hit a couple of shifts and made a better sail call.  That was just intolerable.

Now's a good time to bring up all the "Pros" onboard and whine and moan. That seems to be SOP anyways.

Everyone's cool with it right up until they get passed.

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1 minute ago, OutofOffice said:

Now's a good time to bring up all the "Pros" onboard and whine and moan. That seems to be SOP anyways.

Everyone's cool with it right up until they get passed.

Did I really need to use the sarcasm font?  Hope not.

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3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Did I really need to use the sarcasm font?  Hope not.

Ha. Fair.

It's just always amazing to me how open people are to racing against "Pros" and how excited they are to even trade tacks with said boat. If they beat them, they will re-tell that story every chance they get, but the moment they get passed, "How unfair". Having been passed more times than I care admit, being passed by a better run boat gives you an amazing view into what they're doing that you're not.

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Bait talks about receptionists from the sailing lofts being labeled as pros. Is that correct? If so does that mean I would labeled a pro for working in the marketing department for a dealer & Broker? Ive sailed with the company team. And some of them are really rockstars.

It would be ridiculous to label me a pro. I am sure I would be in the top half of most PHRF fleets for skill level. But I think I would be getting a bit big for my britches if I thought I was in the top 30% .

If I am labeled a pro do I open up a future skipper for protest when we go out and dominate at some big event? Do I need to keep this a secret if I dont want to be labeled a pro? would that be unsportsmanlike conduct to keep it secret? Not much chance of anyone finding out unless I tell them, it was on the other side of the world.

things that make me go, "hmmmmmm"

 

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23 minutes ago, Baldur said:

Bait talks about receptionists from the sailing lofts being labeled as pros. Is that correct? If so does that mean I would labeled a pro for working in the marketing department for a dealer & Broker? Ive sailed with the company team. And some of them are really rockstars.

It would be ridiculous to label me a pro. I am sure I would be in the top half of most PHRF fleets for skill level. But I think I would be getting a bit big for my britches if I thought I was in the top 30% .

If I am labeled a pro do I open up a future skipper for protest when we go out and dominate at some big event? Do I need to keep this a secret if I dont want to be labeled a pro? would that be unsportsmanlike conduct to keep it secret? Not much chance of anyone finding out unless I tell them, it was on the other side of the world.

things that make me go, "hmmmmmm"

 

The rules change occasionally and its worth keeping up to date. There was a time when the receptionist would be classified as a pro. Under current rules I don't think you would be classified as a pro (cat3), you are employed in a marine business, but you are not paid for skills which would enhance the performance of a boat you are racing while you are racing on it.

Some of the wording of this I think is to so that you don't have to class someone who cleans the boats bottom as a Cat3... You are paying them to enhance the performance of the boat, but unless they actually clean the boat during the race they are not a 'pro'

If you have any concerns just get a classification, but frankly it only matters in a class which restricts Cat3's, most don't.

 

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Ok, good news. I have been a bottom rubber too. But at the dealer I was paid to write articles and advertisements for the boats and builders, so I guess I'm not a pro, good. I have sailed with real pros a few times, and I am not at that level for sure.

I often raced 36.7s and I think that OD class has a limit on cat3, but I will doublcheck.

thanks for the clarification

 

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Let them sail. Not like we have too many sailors. But have long thought rating should reflect both the crew and the boat. So the rating may change from race to race. No objection to that. 

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The answer is quite simple. What does the NOR and SI's say about Cat 1 - 3?  Were all boats in compliance?  Was this boat not?

Otherwise, there is no story, move along.

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57 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

The answer is quite simple. What does the NOR and SI's say about Cat 1 - 3?  Were all boats in compliance?  Was this boat not?

Otherwise, there is no story, move along.

the question was 

How long should Cat 3 stigma remain/haunt

add to that

might there come an age where a Cat 3 can race Corinthian anyway

as I said my friend is 90

so if not 90 should someone who by the grace of Gawd Still remains a Cat 3 @ 100 get a Free Pass to Kick Ass ???

the topic of what actually is a Cat 3 is a thread onto itself 

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1 hour ago, DA-WOODY said:

the question was 

How long should Cat 3 stigma remain/haunt

add to that

might there come an age where a Cat 3 can race Corinthian anyway

as I said my friend is 90

so if not 90 should someone who by the grace of Gawd Still remains a Cat 3 @ 100 get a Free Pass to Kick Ass ???

the topic of what actually is a Cat 3 is a thread onto itself 

How hard is it to actually read the document rather than getting second hand advice about it.

https://members.sailing.org/tools/documents/ClassificationCodeJanuary2015English-[18706].pdf

 
Quote

 

The Qualification Period to become a Group 1 competitor or to change from a Group 3 competitor to a Group 1 competitor is:
the continuous period of 24 months before the Classification Date, during which the competitor has not been engaged in Group 3 activities

 

 

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5 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

the question was 

How long should Cat 3 stigma remain/haunt

add to that

might there come an age where a Cat 3 can race Corinthian anyway

as I said my friend is 90

so if not 90 should someone who by the grace of Gawd Still remains a Cat 3 @ 100 get a Free Pass to Kick Ass ???

the topic of what actually is a Cat 3 is a thread onto itself 

Age has nothing to do with Cat 3. Either he is, or he isn't.

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36 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Age has nothing to do with Cat 3. Either he is, or he isn't.

so the WS documents on this suck.

in the version of the code published on tier site there is no mention of an upper age limit. however in the FAQs also published on their site one of the answers is.

Quote
Upper Age Limit
A sailor who has reached their 70th birthday is Group 1. A sailor who, after their 70th birthday, applies for a classification shall only take into consideration their activity for the two years preceding their 70th birthday.

I have no idea where they pull this from, but its inclusion in the FAQ's is enough to sow confusion.

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Fuck me, the guy is 90. Nice work old timer, you've still go it. Prop that guy up at the corner of the bar, buy him a beer and you might actually learn something, chances are he's been there done that and got the t-shirt to prove it.

Jesus, at 90 I'll be lucky if I can still walk to the end of the driveway to get the morning paper without pissing my pants.

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