terrafirma

Can the Italians Ever Win the Cup?

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The Italians have been competing in the AC for a while now. They have also collaborated with New Zealand at times with their challenges. Can they ever win the cup? I don't see who they are working with from a design point of view, their team website has little information. Of the challengers where do you think they rate this time around? Will they finish ahead of the New York and UK teams?

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212692/Italian-Challenger-running-AC75-rig-on-test-boat

 

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I actually think this is one of their better shots, they have had a cycle out but didn't stop working towards it, they have had plenty of input into proceedings as COR so will be well versed on possible design choices and they are playing a fair bit of secret squirrel which is always a sign that a team is kind of trying to fly under the radar a bit, not usually something a team in it just for the experience or some exposure usually bothers with.

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Not under Patrizio Bertelli. Temperamentally not suited & will undermine & destabilise the team on a continual basis

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7 hours ago, terrafirma said:

The Italians have been competing in the AC for a while now. They have also collaborated with New Zealand at times with their challenges. Can they ever win the cup? I don't see who they are working with from a design point of view, their team website has little information. Of the challengers where do you think they rate this time around? Will they finish ahead of the New York and UK teams?

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212692/Italian-Challenger-running-AC75-rig-on-test-boat

 

Luna Rossa has never disclosed a lot of news about their past campaigns, let's see. Of course as Italian I will not be too much disappointed if the cup comes here, but LR is not my favorite team.

Kiwin is also "partially" right. Sometimes the team had to follow Bertelli choices, no matter what they want to do. As for the TP52: the team wanted a used boat to focus on the AC, Bertelli said that a new boat should have been built. And we all know how it ended.

 

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13 hours ago, kiwin said:

Not under Patrizio Bertelli. Temperamentally not suited & will undermine & destabilise the team on a continual basis

I trend to agree here. I too think Patrizio Bertelli isn't suited to win it. Maybe some other Italian Challenger down the road. Luna Rossa will be lucky to make it to the Challenger Final.

I think USA and GBR are going to contest the Challenger Final (PRADA CUP Final). Barker vs Ainslie and Hutchinson vs Scott on Tactics is going to be a good one.

Also,

every time things were not going well for Bertelli he undermined his Sailors.

This is going to be fun between Spithill, Bruni and Vascotto. It might end up in a fight when all three have different opinions how to sail and where to put the boat.

I doubt the communication will be as good as it was between Spithill/Ainslie/Slingsby on Oracle back in 2013.

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I think it is disrespectful to even ask the question. 

The Luna Rosa team is second only to ETNZ for experience in contesting the America's Cup and they won the Louis Vuitton cup in 2,000 and are favourites to win the Prada cup this time around.  Bertelli has been in control through all the ups and downs and there is absolutely no reason to expect him to fail this time.

As for the US team they are rank amateurs alongside Luna Rosa, as a first time challenger they have history against them.

The UK team has a better chance having just completed the AC35 contest which exposed a lot of the weaknesses of a first time challenger but again no match for Luna Rosa competing with a full budget.

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The biggest improvements to Team UK are

1 A basically unlimited budget 

2 Grant Simmer, who has run programs with enormous success when given that freedom. 

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LR has very little left from whatever ‘historic’ days they had, it’s mostly all new and unproven this time. I’m betting JS will helm when the shit hits the fan for them, which could be a massive advantage.

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The biggest improvements to Team UK are

1 A basically unlimited budget

They had a lot of funds last time, but their effort was a shambles, being off the pace most of the time. The had probably the worst foils in Bermuda.

 

15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

2 Grant Simmer, who has run programs with enormous success when given that freedom.

He's a proven winning manager, but Ben is likely to have the last say in important matters, so the dynamic between the two will be critical. It'll be interesting to see how that works out.

 

15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

LR has very little left from whatever ‘historic’ days they had, it’s mostly all new and unproven this time.

They've got Max Sirena back who was privy to ETNZ's winning campaign. He'll bring important experience to their effort. I think they'll be strong.

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23 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The biggest improvements to Team UK are

1 A basically unlimited budget 

2 Grant Simmer, who has run programs with enormous success when given that freedom. 

Absolutely right. Also I think they have Nick Holroyd, ex ETNZ & design chief for the AC72. Essentially they look to be addressing their weaknesses.

Bertelli's behavior during the 2002/3 cup in Auckland included regular humiliating public temper tantrums directed at individual team members complete with off the cuff random firing & sometimes re-instatement within hours or days. Also the team was very much divided into Italians & others. 

 

Not a way to win as what you don't get is the the most important requirement - a team

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19 minutes ago, kiwin said:

Absolutely right. Also I think they have Nick Holroyd, ex ETNZ & design chief for the AC72. Essentially they look to be addressing their weaknesses.

Bertelli's behavior during the 2002/3 cup in Auckland included regular humiliating public temper tantrums directed at individual team members complete with off the cuff random firing & sometimes re-instatement within hours or days. Also the team was very much divided into Italians & others. 

 

Not a way to win as what you don't get is the the most important requirement - a team

They also have Rolf Vrollik as Design Consultant. Yes, their Design Team looks pretty decent. Giles Scott as Tactician though is pretty horrible. I think Luna Rossa's Sailing Squad as well as the one from American Magic is better. INEOS is pretty average aside from Ainslie.

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2 hours ago, kiwin said:

Absolutely right. Also I think they have Nick Holroyd, ex ETNZ & design chief for the AC72. Essentially they look to be addressing their weaknesses.

If Nick Holroyd was that good ETNZ would not have let him go.

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6 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

If Nick Holroyd was that good ETNZ would not have let him go.

I don't think they were that happy about it... 

It's a great example of how any notion that LR and ETNZ are somehow co-conspiring friends is so laughable.

They have a healthy respect for each other and expect a healthy and fierce competition - just like SANZAAR...

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23 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

I think it is disrespectful to even ask the question. 

The Luna Rosa team is second only to ETNZ for experience in contesting the America's Cup and they won the Louis Vuitton cup in 2,000 and are favourites to win the Prada cup this time around.  Bertelli has been in control through all the ups and downs and there is absolutely no reason to expect him to fail this time.

As for the US team they are rank amateurs alongside Luna Rosa, as a first time challenger they have history against them.

The UK team has a better chance having just completed the AC35 contest which exposed a lot of the weaknesses of a first time challenger but again no match for Luna Rosa competing with a full budget.

I disagree completely. How is it disrespectful to ask if a team can win the cup? If a team can't ask that question themselves Terry mark my words they'll never win it.  I am going to hold you to these comments with regards to them being favourites.! Jimmy Spithill will be good for them and their team but don't be surprised if the UK and USA teams are in front at the end of this?

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Won in 1934 (World Cup)

Won Again in 1938 (World Cup)

Lost in 1943 (World War)

Lost in 1970 (World Cup)

Won in 1982 (World Cup)

Won in 2006 (World Cup).

The AC is not on the radar screen for most Italians.

 

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On 12/4/2018 at 9:48 AM, Terry Hollis said:

I think it is disrespectful to even ask the question. 

The Luna Rosa team is second only to ETNZ for experience in contesting the America's Cup and they won the Louis Vuitton cup in 2,000 and are favourites to win the Prada cup this time around.  Bertelli has been in control through all the ups and downs and there is absolutely no reason to expect him to fail this time.

As for the US team they are rank amateurs alongside Luna Rosa, as a first time challenger they have history against them.

 The UK team has a better chance having just completed the AC35 contest which exposed a lot of the weaknesses of a first time challenger but again no match for Luna Rosa competing with a full budget.

no it isn't

they didn't do shit last cup, which will prove to be the most relevant cup to date for this cycle

the only reason why they were somewhat competitive in 34 was because they spent money to buy ETNZ's design

i would not be surprised at all in Ienos has a bigger budget this time around

added to ienos is about half of team artemis, which will do wonders seeing as artemis had the second fastest boat last cup

bullshit the italians are favourites, unless they splash out and buy ETNZ's design again

look what artemis did on their second cycle. i predict that it will be much the same story, although they'll get into the cup match because their won't be any other strong challengers

and to answer the original post

NO

 

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

I disagree completely. How is it disrespectful to ask if a team can win the cup? If a team can't ask that question themselves Terry mark my words they'll never win it.  I am going to hold you to these comments with regards to them being favourites.! Jimmy Spithill will be good for them and their team but don't be surprised if the UK and USA teams are in front at the end of this?

It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

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18 minutes ago, inebriated said:

they didn't do shit last cup,

If Luna Rosa had not supported ETNZ in the AC35 we would not have the dramatic turn around that we have with the AC75's.

Instead we would probably have Artemis holding a defence at Bermuda .. been there and done that.

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11 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

Seems your a minority on this one Terry and that's fine. When your spending this sort of money I think you have every right to ask "Can we win the cup?" . 

 

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Just now, Terry Hollis said:

 It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

none of the challengers are successful. none have won. IENOS are the only ones that i see with potential, LR have been at this for how long and they haven't really been close vs the winner?

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Just now, Terry Hollis said:

If Luna Rosa had not supported ETNZ in the AC35 we would not have the dramatic turn around that we have with the AC75's.

 Instead we would probably have Artemis holding a defence at Bermuda .. been there and done that.

and...

they gave some money and a few people to help ETNZ win the cup so they could have a say

money doesn't make a good team, it helps a good team

ETNZ needed help, LR paid them. no amount of money can fix LR

IENOS on the other hand have gained money, but they have also built a great team for this cup cycle

they'll get into the cup match if LR doesn't buy ETNZ's design again, mark my words

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36 minutes ago, inebriated said:

IENOS on the other hand have gained money, but they have also built a great team for this cup cycle

they'll get into the cup match if LR doesn't buy ETNZ's design again, mark my words

A bit early to be predicting who is going to be in the cup match. A lot will happen between now and then. I wouldn't write the Italians off. I wouldn't write any one off at this stage.

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In this cup with such a design unknown it is entirely possible that one team comes up with a design that is much faster than all the others. If so they will win. Even the "worst" ac sailors will win in the fastest boat, and the best cannot win without it. 

If the Luna Rossa management group can seperate and insulate the team from P B then maybe they can have success. They are not short of talent, application or ability, that is not what I am saying. I believe that PB, having put hundreds of millions of dollars into the AC will not be able to keep his ego in check and he is temperamentally unsuited to contact with team members. It may be that Luna Rossa come up the fastest design. In which case they may well win. I just think that team culture mitigates against this possibility making it less likely. I have been wrong before. Just ask my wife

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7 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

Another way of looking at it is that they have been losing for the longest. I don't recall much respect being shown to teams in general on SAAC and am not sure we have to start now for LR just because they are ETNZs best mates.

Favourite to win AC36 must be ETNZ simply because the defender usually wins. Amongst the 3 present challengers, I don't see any information right now that would rationally suggest one to be the favourite. For myself, emotionally, I dislike them all equally, for different reasons.

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^ Have to say I'm having the same problem, my sniff test says: INEOS, strong odor of unchecked petro exploitation, AM is a complex mix of pyramid schemes, incompetent cabinet members & little orange troll, PRADA of course smells of overpriced handbags & such, then we have our defender which is another mix of jet exhaust & rabid fan boys.

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2 hours ago, inebriated said:

emarites are responsible for the fucking chemtrails!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, INEOS for the flat earth and NYYC for having killed JFK.

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^^ Thanks for that, love a good chuckle, weirdly it's actually "Team Overpriced Kit" that bothers me the least.

But of course what would really get my blood up would be "Team Anime" I can see it now a consortium of Funimation, Studio Mad House, Studio Bones, Studio I.G. & Viz Media, it's nice to dream.

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