terrafirma

Can the Italians Ever Win the Cup?

Recommended Posts

The Italians have been competing in the AC for a while now. They have also collaborated with New Zealand at times with their challenges. Can they ever win the cup? I don't see who they are working with from a design point of view, their team website has little information. Of the challengers where do you think they rate this time around? Will they finish ahead of the New York and UK teams?

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212692/Italian-Challenger-running-AC75-rig-on-test-boat

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think this is one of their better shots, they have had a cycle out but didn't stop working towards it, they have had plenty of input into proceedings as COR so will be well versed on possible design choices and they are playing a fair bit of secret squirrel which is always a sign that a team is kind of trying to fly under the radar a bit, not usually something a team in it just for the experience or some exposure usually bothers with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Italy is sailing and the more one design it becomes the greater chance they have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not under Patrizio Bertelli. Temperamentally not suited & will undermine & destabilise the team on a continual basis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Never won it most probably never will and who gives a fuck really.

However without their loot the cup is doomed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, terrafirma said:

The Italians have been competing in the AC for a while now. They have also collaborated with New Zealand at times with their challenges. Can they ever win the cup? I don't see who they are working with from a design point of view, their team website has little information. Of the challengers where do you think they rate this time around? Will they finish ahead of the New York and UK teams?

https://www.sail-world.com/news/212692/Italian-Challenger-running-AC75-rig-on-test-boat

 

Luna Rossa has never disclosed a lot of news about their past campaigns, let's see. Of course as Italian I will not be too much disappointed if the cup comes here, but LR is not my favorite team.

Kiwin is also "partially" right. Sometimes the team had to follow Bertelli choices, no matter what they want to do. As for the TP52: the team wanted a used boat to focus on the AC, Bertelli said that a new boat should have been built. And we all know how it ended.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is disrespectful to even ask the question. 

The Luna Rosa team is second only to ETNZ for experience in contesting the America's Cup and they won the Louis Vuitton cup in 2,000 and are favourites to win the Prada cup this time around.  Bertelli has been in control through all the ups and downs and there is absolutely no reason to expect him to fail this time.

As for the US team they are rank amateurs alongside Luna Rosa, as a first time challenger they have history against them.

The UK team has a better chance having just completed the AC35 contest which exposed a lot of the weaknesses of a first time challenger but again no match for Luna Rosa competing with a full budget.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest improvements to Team UK are

1 A basically unlimited budget 

2 Grant Simmer, who has run programs with enormous success when given that freedom. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LR has very little left from whatever ‘historic’ days they had, it’s mostly all new and unproven this time. I’m betting JS will helm when the shit hits the fan for them, which could be a massive advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The biggest improvements to Team UK are

1 A basically unlimited budget

They had a lot of funds last time, but their effort was a shambles, being off the pace most of the time. The had probably the worst foils in Bermuda.

 

15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

2 Grant Simmer, who has run programs with enormous success when given that freedom.

He's a proven winning manager, but Ben is likely to have the last say in important matters, so the dynamic between the two will be critical. It'll be interesting to see how that works out.

 

15 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

LR has very little left from whatever ‘historic’ days they had, it’s mostly all new and unproven this time.

They've got Max Sirena back who was privy to ETNZ's winning campaign. He'll bring important experience to their effort. I think they'll be strong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The biggest improvements to Team UK are

1 A basically unlimited budget 

2 Grant Simmer, who has run programs with enormous success when given that freedom. 

Absolutely right. Also I think they have Nick Holroyd, ex ETNZ & design chief for the AC72. Essentially they look to be addressing their weaknesses.

Bertelli's behavior during the 2002/3 cup in Auckland included regular humiliating public temper tantrums directed at individual team members complete with off the cuff random firing & sometimes re-instatement within hours or days. Also the team was very much divided into Italians & others. 

 

Not a way to win as what you don't get is the the most important requirement - a team

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kiwin said:

Absolutely right. Also I think they have Nick Holroyd, ex ETNZ & design chief for the AC72. Essentially they look to be addressing their weaknesses.

If Nick Holroyd was that good ETNZ would not have let him go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

If Nick Holroyd was that good ETNZ would not have let him go.

I don't think they were that happy about it... 

It's a great example of how any notion that LR and ETNZ are somehow co-conspiring friends is so laughable.

They have a healthy respect for each other and expect a healthy and fierce competition - just like SANZAAR...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

I think it is disrespectful to even ask the question. 

The Luna Rosa team is second only to ETNZ for experience in contesting the America's Cup and they won the Louis Vuitton cup in 2,000 and are favourites to win the Prada cup this time around.  Bertelli has been in control through all the ups and downs and there is absolutely no reason to expect him to fail this time.

As for the US team they are rank amateurs alongside Luna Rosa, as a first time challenger they have history against them.

The UK team has a better chance having just completed the AC35 contest which exposed a lot of the weaknesses of a first time challenger but again no match for Luna Rosa competing with a full budget.

I disagree completely. How is it disrespectful to ask if a team can win the cup? If a team can't ask that question themselves Terry mark my words they'll never win it.  I am going to hold you to these comments with regards to them being favourites.! Jimmy Spithill will be good for them and their team but don't be surprised if the UK and USA teams are in front at the end of this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Won in 1934 (World Cup)

Won Again in 1938 (World Cup)

Lost in 1943 (World War)

Lost in 1970 (World Cup)

Won in 1982 (World Cup)

Won in 2006 (World Cup).

The AC is not on the radar screen for most Italians.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/4/2018 at 9:48 AM, Terry Hollis said:

I think it is disrespectful to even ask the question. 

The Luna Rosa team is second only to ETNZ for experience in contesting the America's Cup and they won the Louis Vuitton cup in 2,000 and are favourites to win the Prada cup this time around.  Bertelli has been in control through all the ups and downs and there is absolutely no reason to expect him to fail this time.

As for the US team they are rank amateurs alongside Luna Rosa, as a first time challenger they have history against them.

 The UK team has a better chance having just completed the AC35 contest which exposed a lot of the weaknesses of a first time challenger but again no match for Luna Rosa competing with a full budget.

no it isn't

they didn't do shit last cup, which will prove to be the most relevant cup to date for this cycle

the only reason why they were somewhat competitive in 34 was because they spent money to buy ETNZ's design

i would not be surprised at all in Ienos has a bigger budget this time around

added to ienos is about half of team artemis, which will do wonders seeing as artemis had the second fastest boat last cup

bullshit the italians are favourites, unless they splash out and buy ETNZ's design again

look what artemis did on their second cycle. i predict that it will be much the same story, although they'll get into the cup match because their won't be any other strong challengers

and to answer the original post

NO

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

I disagree completely. How is it disrespectful to ask if a team can win the cup? If a team can't ask that question themselves Terry mark my words they'll never win it.  I am going to hold you to these comments with regards to them being favourites.! Jimmy Spithill will be good for them and their team but don't be surprised if the UK and USA teams are in front at the end of this?

It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, inebriated said:

they didn't do shit last cup,

If Luna Rosa had not supported ETNZ in the AC35 we would not have the dramatic turn around that we have with the AC75's.

Instead we would probably have Artemis holding a defence at Bermuda .. been there and done that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

Seems your a minority on this one Terry and that's fine. When your spending this sort of money I think you have every right to ask "Can we win the cup?" . 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Terry Hollis said:

 It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

none of the challengers are successful. none have won. IENOS are the only ones that i see with potential, LR have been at this for how long and they haven't really been close vs the winner?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Terry Hollis said:

If Luna Rosa had not supported ETNZ in the AC35 we would not have the dramatic turn around that we have with the AC75's.

 Instead we would probably have Artemis holding a defence at Bermuda .. been there and done that.

and...

they gave some money and a few people to help ETNZ win the cup so they could have a say

money doesn't make a good team, it helps a good team

ETNZ needed help, LR paid them. no amount of money can fix LR

IENOS on the other hand have gained money, but they have also built a great team for this cup cycle

they'll get into the cup match if LR doesn't buy ETNZ's design again, mark my words

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, inebriated said:

IENOS on the other hand have gained money, but they have also built a great team for this cup cycle

they'll get into the cup match if LR doesn't buy ETNZ's design again, mark my words

A bit early to be predicting who is going to be in the cup match. A lot will happen between now and then. I wouldn't write the Italians off. I wouldn't write any one off at this stage.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this cup with such a design unknown it is entirely possible that one team comes up with a design that is much faster than all the others. If so they will win. Even the "worst" ac sailors will win in the fastest boat, and the best cannot win without it. 

If the Luna Rossa management group can seperate and insulate the team from P B then maybe they can have success. They are not short of talent, application or ability, that is not what I am saying. I believe that PB, having put hundreds of millions of dollars into the AC will not be able to keep his ego in check and he is temperamentally unsuited to contact with team members. It may be that Luna Rossa come up the fastest design. In which case they may well win. I just think that team culture mitigates against this possibility making it less likely. I have been wrong before. Just ask my wife

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

It is disrespectful to ask if any challenger can win the cup, but more so with Luna Rosa because after ETNZ they are the most successful AC contestant in the present line up.

Another way of looking at it is that they have been losing for the longest. I don't recall much respect being shown to teams in general on SAAC and am not sure we have to start now for LR just because they are ETNZs best mates.

Favourite to win AC36 must be ETNZ simply because the defender usually wins. Amongst the 3 present challengers, I don't see any information right now that would rationally suggest one to be the favourite. For myself, emotionally, I dislike them all equally, for different reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Have to say I'm having the same problem, my sniff test says: INEOS, strong odor of unchecked petro exploitation, AM is a complex mix of pyramid schemes, incompetent cabinet members & little orange troll, PRADA of course smells of overpriced handbags & such, then we have our defender which is another mix of jet exhaust & rabid fan boys.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, inebriated said:

emarites are responsible for the fucking chemtrails!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, INEOS for the flat earth and NYYC for having killed JFK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^ Thanks for that, love a good chuckle, weirdly it's actually "Team Overpriced Kit" that bothers me the least.

But of course what would really get my blood up would be "Team Anime" I can see it now a consortium of Funimation, Studio Mad House, Studio Bones, Studio I.G. & Viz Media, it's nice to dream.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/2/2018 at 9:08 PM, terrafirma said:

The Italians have been competing in the AC for a while now. They have also collaborated with New Zealand at times with their challenges. Can they ever win the cup?

Dunno. But they certainly build beautiful, fast boats, and bring a much-needed sense of style to the AC.

Azzurra-varo.jpg

FWIW, I'd prefer that Luna Rossa was still representing the Yacht Club Italiano, rather than the Circolo della Vela Sicilia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes the Italians win the style, fashion and elegance awards. Pretty boats too.! I just wonder if anyone remembers the prettiest boat or the one that won it.! Personally I think the Italians need to finish as top challenger, if not they need to re-think their approach to the Americas Cup. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For sure few people will remember any of the post-1987 winning boats: most didn't even have names.

Sic transit gloria mundi!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Yes the Italians win the style, fashion and elegance awards. Pretty boats too.! I just wonder if anyone remembers the prettiest boat or the one that won it.! Personally I think the Italians need to finish as top challenger, if not they need to re-think their approach to the Americas Cup. 

Patrizio the Poodle has Father Time, and his wife, working against him.  How many challenges does he have left after AC36?  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Patrizio the Poodle has Father Time, and his wife, working against him.  How many challenges does he have left after AC36?  

WetHog  :ph34r:

ohhh so Patrizio is the poodle - I was sure it was GD? Or is it both? I'm confused :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, WetHog said:

Patrizio the Poodle has Father Time, and his wife, working against him.  How many challenges does he have left after AC36?  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yes I wonder who in Italy has the money to take over his legacy? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, rh2600 said:

ohhh so Patrizio is the poodle - I was sure it was GD? Or is it both? I'm confused :-)

Yer not the only one!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/5/2019 at 3:52 PM, rh2600 said:

ohhh so Patrizio is the poodle - I was sure it was GD? Or is it both? I'm confused :-)

He was always the poodle.  Because Patrizio and poodle go so well together.  Please try to keep up.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Luna Rossa in the last cup had developed some substantial technology which helped ETNZ win the cup.  Their AC62 work was probably the most advanced of anyone.

I tend to agree that they will not finish as well as they could due to teamwork but Spithill may help quite a bit in that area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WetHog said:

He was always the poodle.  Because Patrizio and poodle go so well together.  Please try to keep up.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

I suppose it must smart when the moniker you've been trying to shill for over 5 years still hasn't stuck... :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I suppose it must smart when the moniker you've been trying to shill for over 5 years still hasn't stuck... :-)

It sticks with me and thats all I care about.  :P

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I suppose it must smart when the moniker you've been trying to shill for over 5 years still hasn't stuck... :-)

Imagine caring about this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I believe Luna Rossa in the last cup had developed some substantial technology which helped ETNZ win the cup.  Their AC62 work was probably the most advanced of anyone.

I tend to agree that they will not finish as well as they could due to teamwork but Spithill may help quite a bit in that area.

Nails it, unfortunately: individual brilliance, but no team culture

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't think that Max is a team leader? I had heard he was pretty good in the role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Imagine caring about this.

I know... odd isn't it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I suppose it must smart when the moniker you've been trying to shill for over 5 years still hasn't stuck... :-)

Yeah!  I believe PB will go down in AC history as one of the significant challengers who, for all his occasional outbursts, believed in the America's Cup and did his best to play by the rules.

All this "poodle" stuff gives me hives. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now