Sign in to follow this  
Jammer Six

Gaff Rigs

Recommended Posts

So, when one is sailing a gaff rig like Mr. Ed's ketch, do folks really have to go aloft anymore, or can those top sails be handled from the deck?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never heard of needing to go aloft for gaff sails. I thought that was only necessary for square sails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some topsail luffs are laced to a topmast, therefore requiring crew aloft to unfurl/furl.  

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on how you're set up, and we do go up the mast to tie in the tack of the sail, which will otherwise blow away from the mast too much on starboard tack. Many boats have an arrangement of messenger lines and jack stays so that you can tie it in remotely. Our windage specials (aka oak ratlines, which the boat's designer called ratpoles) make going up so simple that we haven't bothered with it. What you see in our sailplan and photos is a jackyard topsail, which has extra yards to project the sail above the top of the topsail and beyond the end of the gaff yard. This makes handling it more complicated, and especially lowering it can be vexing, for it has a tendency to capsize. Our next new sail will be a jib-headed topsail, which just fills in the triangle between the topmast and the gaffyard, and we will probably rig it on a jackstay of sorts. 

Topsails are so important for going well to windward (apparently it's a matter of the length of the luff), that smart boats have a way of setting them even above a reefed main. 

sailplan-small.jpg

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

image.jpeg.43f85164421d63430550282d2a078c3c.jpeg

These guys certainly don't go up to set the tops'ls. They usually set them, or not, before leaving harbour. It's not something they will often do underway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the days of the big cutters (and they really were big), there'd be someone up the mast most of the time, sometimes actually helping the topsail over the peak halyard span each tack so that it set better. That job ("Masthead topsman" or something like that) would get you an extra bit for danger money, as was the case with the "bowsprit endsman". Or did I just make that up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have a seat, Bob, there's a guy here who really knows.

So, after some reading, this is about the lower center of effort, isn't it? The extra work gets you a flatter boat, and the cost is sailing further off the wind. How does your boat go to weather?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

In the days of the big cutters (and they really were big), there'd be someone up the mast most of the time, sometimes actually helping the topsail over the peak halyard span each tack so that it set better. That job ("Masthead topsman" or something like that) would get you an extra bit for danger money, as was the case with the "bowsprit endsman". Or did I just make that up.

Nope, totally correct. The masthead man would get there by climbing up the hoops!

It was a dangerous job, there were several cases where the masthead man was seriously injured or killed.

Those guys would think we were nuts, sailing for "fun"

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OP question has been successful answered.

Bob, is that the cute one you designed for the Drs. in Louisiana? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr. Ed said:

It depends on how you're set up, and we do go up the mast to tie in the tack of the sail, which will otherwise blow away from the mast too much on starboard tack. Many boats have an arrangement of messenger lines and jack stays so that you can tie it in remotely. Our windage specials (aka oak ratlines, which the boat's designer called ratpoles) make going up so simple that we haven't bothered with it. What you see in our sailplan and photos is a jackyard topsail, which has extra yards to project the sail above the top of the topsail and beyond the end of the gaff yard. This makes handling it more complicated, and especially lowering it can be vexing, for it has a tendency to capsize. Our next new sail will be a jib-headed topsail, which just fills in the triangle between the topmast and the gaffyard, and we will probably rig it on a jackstay of sorts. 

Topsails are so important for going well to windward (apparently it's a matter of the length of the luff), that smart boats have a way of setting them even above a reefed main. 

sailplan-small.jpg

 

 

 

Didn't see anything in a quick search but is there a thread on this thing Ed?  If you are up for sharing I would love to hear how you got into this, what you are doing with her, etc...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beer:

Yes, that Dr. Rob's boat built by Choate. It sailed very well. The topsail took some fussing with till we got it to set right but none of us had ever worked with a topsail before. I've designed quite a few gaff rigs. Jay Benford like to offer gaff rig options on his stock plans when I worked for him. I like gaff rigs. If you look at a high performance square top mainsail today and the twist they develop when loaded it's not too far different from an old gaff rig. They even have that upper batten that almost replicates the angle of a gaff. I've spent countless happy hours sailing a Beetle Cat.

45248816755_4355f0ff36_b.jpgrob sp by robert perry, on Flickr

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

William Garden included a design called Privateer - An Ancient Dream Ship in his book Sailing Yachts. I don't know whether he expected a boat to be built to the design. He did do some designs just because an idea caught his fancy. Anyway, this boat is very heavy and very picturesque. 

It came to mind because I remember this quote from the book:

"Two sail plans were developed, the simpler and perhaps most practical schooner rig, or the old-time cutter, with a mile or so of gear for the man who owns a rope walk and likes to be busy roaming the deck with a handy-billy setting things up.With neither rig nothing could be  more pleasant than sitting on a cask contemplating the full curve of the mainsail as she bowls along toward the horizon."

And that is the romance of gaff rig.

 

Pirate Cutter.jpg

Pirate Schooner.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Black Sox:

What are those boats? Do you have any bigger pics?

Howth 17s I think.

howth-17-yachts-howth-harbour-co-the-iri

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Wess said:

Didn't see anything in a quick search but is there a thread on this thing Ed?  If you are up for sharing I would love to hear how you got into this, what you are doing with her, etc...

 

I've kind of bored everyone enough here I think, in the past at least. Got to go work as well. Maybe a bit more later, but it seems like bragging - the boat is really nice. She's a fake of course, although a genuine fake. Mahogany on mahogany, launched in 1998. We had to resist a lot of expert advice to not buy her! My mum's was the best:

"You must be mad! Do it."

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted 1 hour ago

   1 hour ago,  Sail4beer said: 

No shame! I’ve sailed a few big gaffers and you look up after the wind increases and see the throat halyard is low and the peak halyard choked up. You jump to make adjustments before the camera boats come rolling in!

One of the tricks my grandfather had was a set of wedges that he made to tension the throat halyard (I don't remember him fussing with the peak). He had a couple of them and of course the upwind setting was different from downwind.

My question for Mr Ed- do you set those jackyards in the lee, or slide them up on the windward side? I sailed on a big (well, 40~ish ft seemed huge to me at the time) cutter that set a HUGE jackyard topsail, always on the windward side, always close reaching with the main strapped in slightly, and there was some arrangement I don't recall with the backstays and boom lifts. It was an eye-opening experience for me in more ways than one, as I was convinced that it would be better done to leeward. To cut an embarrassing story short, the one time we tried it, I was wrong.

FB- Doug

 

 

Ive pasted the above comments and question in from the good designer/ugly boat thread. Seems to make more sense here. 

I’m not writing as an expert because I’m not and I’ve never really been taught any of this.

The key thing of course is to get all the string right. It’s all logical of course, but there’s a couple of counterintuitive points to it. We normally hoist it up the leeward side with the idea that the sail has some protection (also the boat is on starboard tack which might come in handy!). But recently when hoisting on my own I’ve done it up the weather side which was quite nice because you can rest it half way up while you snug the downhaul and gather your nerves and your breath. Again, only in our experience, the trickiest bit is often the struggle to not spear the top of the topsail yard between the return of the sheet and the gaff, or between the span of the peak halyard. Getting it over both of them is always a good moment and is the time for really giving it a heave ho to get it home. 

Getting it down is fun sometimes especially in a breeze. If it takes off behind the boat you have a struggle to depower it and there are two fucking big planks of wood waving around aimed at your teeth. The last and most malicious trick it plays is that the topsail yard has a tendency to capsize when it comes down, so the bottom of it points the wrong way. This means you end up with an impossible bit of geometry and have to start again - you think that because  nothing has been untied you can hoist again, but believe me, it ain’t so. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A year or so ago, I spent and afternoon (alone) farting around with my heavy weather jib, lashed (upside down) to a yard (my dingy mast) .  Not an ideal shape, but it proved the concept.   Someday I'll get (make?) a proper topsail of very light cloth.  Dinghy mast worked great - will keep using it.

Steve

EZT0UGW.jpg

kHUhJoo.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm doing a 43' gaff ketch for a NZ client right now. His current boat is a modern NZ type but now he wants a gaffer. We will us CF spars but traditional rigging details. He has not mentioned a topsail yet. It's a quirky rig with the lug mizzen but it's exactly what the client wants.

46163546341_c49cb286f3_b.jpgEdward sail plan by robert perry, on Flickr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Panope said:

A year or so ago, I spent and afternoon (alone) farting around with my heavy weather jib, lashed (upside down) to a yard (my dingy mast) .  Not an ideal shape, but it proved the concept.   Someday I'll get (make?) a proper topsail of very light cloth.  Dinghy mast worked great - will keep using it.

Steve

EZT0UGW.jpg

kHUhJoo.jpg

You’ve pretty much nailed it there. Does it wake the boat up a bit? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great boat, Bob. 

Any thoughts of having a tabernacle?  It would be snap to self raise and lower being such a short and light wieght spar.

Steve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve:

Yes, the boat will have a  tabernacle. Our most recent addition to the design. I should get your thoughts on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mr. Ed said:

You’ve pretty much nailed it there. Does it wake the boat up a bit? 

It was not very noticeable.  There was only about 60 square feet of sail above the gaff.  I I figure about 90 feet will properly fill that triangle and with a proper shape, it should be a worthwhile sail.

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Panope said:

It was not very noticeable.  There was only about 60 square feet of sail above the gaff.  I I figure about 90 feet will properly fill that triangle and with a proper shape, it should be a worthwhile sail.

Steve

I’d be nervous about making it from very light cloth because you need a lot of tension on the sail. When you see welll sailed gaff rigged boats the topsail is like a board. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Steve:

Yes, the boat will have a  tabernacle. Our most recent addition to the design. I should get your thoughts on that.

On the subject of tabernacles BA has them (don’t ask) and it took me seven years of ownership to logic out why the mainmast one is galvanised steel and the mizzen is aluminium. Bob will get it in one. In fact you all will I suspect. Ready, steady, go. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Steve:

Yes, the boat will have a  tabernacle. Our most recent addition to the design. I should get your thoughts on that.

Anytime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

I’d be nervous about making it from very light cloth because you need a lot of tension on the sail. When you see welll sailed gaff rigged boats the topsail is like a board. 

Thanks Ed,  I'll make it not quite so light. 

That said, Panope is a bit tender.  Topsail ABSOLUTELY must be struck above 10 knot wind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

On the subject of tabernacles BA has them (don’t ask) and it took me seven years of ownership to logic out why the mainmast one is galvanised steel and the mizzen is aluminium. Bob will get it in one. In fact you all will I suspect. Ready, steady, go. 

Umm, for load balance and proper weight distribution? My boat’s original mast was steel. Imagine it was quite heavy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kimbottles said:

Your mother must be very cool!

She's pretty cool. The Alzheimer's that hollowing out her cortex is not so cool. Bad stuff.

 

betty-and-Ed-e1543862554760.jpg

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Umm, for load balance and proper weight distribution? My boat’s original mast was steel. Imagine it was quite heavy.

nope. You've only got six years left now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

I've kind of bored everyone enough here I think, in the past at least. Got to go work as well. Maybe a bit more later, but it seems like bragging - the boat is really nice. She's a fake of course, although a genuine fake. Mahogany on mahogany, launched in 1998. We had to resist a lot of expert advice to not buy her! My mum's was the best:

"You must be mad! Do it."

Took me a bit but found the B&A site.  Damn!!  There has to be a god story to that left turn.  Not judging; (OK I am and its pretty amazing) my wife and I just took an unexpected dive and turn with our recent purchase.  But nothing like you have done.  Between that boat and your way with words... Oye!  Hope you get some post 2014 updates up!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Wess said:

Took me a bit but found the B&A site.  Damn!!  There has to be a god story to that left turn.  Not judging; (OK I am and its pretty amazing) my wife and I just took an unexpected dive and turn with our recent purchase.  But nothing like you have done.  Between that boat and your way with words... Oye!  Hope you get some post 2014 updates up!!

Thx! Am working on a big update - it's a ghost site at the moment. Work got in the way, as it does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mr. Ed said:

Thx! Am working on a big update - it's a ghost site at the moment. Work got in the way, as it does.

Brother, that boat looks like work.  Fun work but lots of work!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ed:

I understand the two different metals. Smart. Someone must have done this before.

On my ketch the lug mizzen will be an stayed CF tube we won't need a tabernacle.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Mr. Ed said:

She's pretty cool. The Alzheimer's that hollowing out her cortex is not so cool. Bad stuff.

 

betty-and-Ed-e1543862554760.jpg

 

 

You are a good son. My brother has been doing that with my Mom for the last 6 years since she got the bad part of Parkinson’s. I respect you guys who can do that more than words can express.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr. Ed said:

Nice wedge story - I sort of put your question on to another thread which seemed a bit more logical. 

Most of the sailing I did with my grandfather was on small gaff catboats, mostly racing. He was a rather grumpy skipper and from what I now know, he must have had a hard time getting crew but back then I was flattered to be asked. He was the perennial champion of Barnegat Bay.

It may be a more commonly known trick than I realize, to use wedges for adjusting halyard tension on traditional rigs. One issue is that traditional lines are not low stretch, you get used to adjusting stuff -all- the time. I could never do it to his satisfaction; but to be fair the old boy got to windward faster than any other boat we sailed against. He was a good racing sailor and also won a few trophies in E-scows and Lightnings. It took a long time for my steering to satisfy him while he adjusted things.

About the topsails- it was my grandfather who hooked me up with some members of the New England Sailing Mafia to sail on some of their boats, which is how I got to sail on this big cutter (also on S-boats). Getting the luff yard over the gaff took some horsing on the heel rope, while keeping just the right strain on the halyard. My idea about setting it in the lee resulted in so much flailing and thrashing that it was one of the first times in my young life an adult said "Fuck" to me. 

FB- Doug

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

I have never heard of needing to go aloft for gaff sails. I thought that was only necessary for square sails.

Just for the record: on most modern square rigs you can easily furl the sails from on deck - no need to go aloft. And very easily done short handed I might add!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Black Sox:

What are those boats? Do you have any bigger pics?

 

5 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

Howth 17s I think.

howth-17-yachts-howth-harbour-co-the-iri

Beat me to it Mr. Ed. Spot on.

First sailed in 1898. Only sailed in Howth Yacht Club and there's more about them here. Most of the 20-something currently sailing and racing are originals, and not in the take-a-plank-and-build-around-it way. Genuine originals.

You know what they say about dogs and their owners looking alike? Well, a lot of these 17 owners have personalities as distinct, (to put it kindly), as their boats.

The boats change hands for a nominal sum but you can only buy one if the rest of the owners, very quietly, approve.

Any time you're coming over, they'd be delighted to take you out. It could possibly be a class rule that a pipe is to be smoked at all times while racing. So you've got that going for you. Possible downsides includes getting extremely wet and death by boring from the owners.

2 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

She's pretty cool. The Alzheimer's that hollowing out her cortex is not so cool. Bad stuff.

 

betty-and-Ed-e1543862554760.jpg

 

 

Sorry to hear that Mr. Ed. My own Mum has been in a dementia unit for nearly a year now. She's well cared-for, clean, entertained, and most of all, she's content. I like to think that the fairies came and took her.

Dad went into hospital last month for a heart procedure. It should have been OK but his poor old body just wasn't up for any more and he passed away on 13 November. Mum saw him in his coffin and she knew something awful had happened but not quite what, and she was fine 24 hours later. The rest of us, not so much.

As far as I'm concerned, Dad died of a broken heart, between one thing and another.

Sorry if I've said too much.

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sox:

They look ;like very interesting boats to me.

Maybe if I sauntered down the dock, Dunhill bulldog clenched in my teeth, smoking a bow of S&G SKIFF MIXTURE I could get a ride. Looks like fun.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Just for the record: on most modern square rigs you can easily furl the sails from on deck - no need to go aloft. And very easily done short handed I might add!

But that takes the fun out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, captain_crunch said:
3 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Just for the record: on most modern square rigs you can easily furl the sails from on deck - no need to go aloft. And very easily done short handed I might add!

But that takes the fun out of it.

Nah

Going aloft is highly over rated...... the one exception is in a crystal blue anchorage, to dive off the main truck

FB- Doug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Sox:

They look ;like very interesting boats to me.

Maybe if I sauntered down the dock, Dunhill bulldog clenched in my teeth, smoking a bow of S&G SKIFF MIXTURE I could get a ride. Looks like fun.

Bob, you will definitely sail in one and you can puff away to your heart's content. Your pipe will need a lid, though, to keep the nasty water out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nah

Going aloft is highly over rated...... the one exception is in a crystal blue anchorage, to dive off the main truck

FB- Doug

'Highly overrated' is maybe a bit strong, but it certainly helps when your can choose the time and place for climbing up!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Black Sox said:

Bob, you will definitely sail in one and you can puff away to your heart's content. Your pipe will need a lid, though, to keep the nasty water out.

wow.

I hit home in more than one place with one post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Black Sox said:

 

Beat me to it Mr. Ed. Spot on.

First sailed in 1898. Only sailed in Howth Yacht Club and there's more about them here. Most of the 20-something currently sailing and racing are originals, and not in the take-a-plank-and-build-around-it way. Genuine originals.

You know what they say about dogs and their owners looking alike? Well, a lot of these 17 owners have personalities as distinct, (to put it kindly), as their boats.

The boats change hands for a nominal sum but you can only buy one if the rest of the owners, very quietly, approve.

Any time you're coming over, they'd be delighted to take you out. It could possibly be a class rule that a pipe is to be smoked at all times while racing. So you've got that going for you. Possible downsides includes getting extremely wet and death by boring from the owners.

Sorry to hear that Mr. Ed. My own Mum has been in a dementia unit for nearly a year now. She's well cared-for, clean, entertained, and most of all, she's content. I like to think that the fairies came and took her.

Dad went into hospital last month for a heart procedure. It should have been OK but his poor old body just wasn't up for any more and he passed away on 13 November. Mum saw him in his coffin and she knew something awful had happened but not quite what, and she was fine 24 hours later. The rest of us, not so much.

As far as I'm concerned, Dad died of a broken heart, between one thing and another.

Sorry if I've said too much.

 

Many commiserations. I hope he had a good life!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Commiserations on your losses..

 

We have many traditional gaff rigged boats on  the broads the bigger sailing cruisers say up to 40ft + bowsprit have topsails, none need anyone to go up top unless there is a problem, even then they tend to drop the mast which is in a hog mounted tabernackle. Some have their topsail fixed to the main gaff meaning they have to lower that to remove the topsail. most it can just be done on haulyards.

heres a smaller one..

Image result for yachts racing wroxham topsail

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mr. Ed said:

She's pretty cool. The Alzheimer's that hollowing out her cortex is not so cool. Bad stuff.

 

betty-and-Ed-e1543862554760.jpg

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Black Sox said:

 

Beat me to it Mr. Ed. Spot on.

First sailed in 1898. Only sailed in Howth Yacht Club and there's more about them here. Most of the 20-something currently sailing and racing are originals, and not in the take-a-plank-and-build-around-it way. Genuine originals.

You know what they say about dogs and their owners looking alike? Well, a lot of these 17 owners have personalities as distinct, (to put it kindly), as their boats.

The boats change hands for a nominal sum but you can only buy one if the rest of the owners, very quietly, approve.

Any time you're coming over, they'd be delighted to take you out. It could possibly be a class rule that a pipe is to be smoked at all times while racing. So you've got that going for you. Possible downsides includes getting extremely wet and death by boring from the owners.

Sorry to hear that Mr. Ed. My own Mum has been in a dementia unit for nearly a year now. She's well cared-for, clean, entertained, and most of all, she's content. I like to think that the fairies came and took her.

Dad went into hospital last month for a heart procedure. It should have been OK but his poor old body just wasn't up for any more and he passed away on 13 November. Mum saw him in his coffin and she knew something awful had happened but not quite what, and she was fine 24 hours later. The rest of us, not so much.

As far as I'm concerned, Dad died of a broken heart, between one thing and another.

Sorry if I've said too much.

 

My hat is off to you both @Mr. Ed and @Black Sox.  We are going through same as we speak.  Gramps is a wreck medically and sadly mentally now too.  We did at least get him out sailing to see his Granddaughter conning a group of navy ships (thankfully they didn't run us down).  But that is over now too.  Just had to have his foot amputated.  He came down to visit for 2 weeks and didn't leave LOL.  Hardest thing we have ever done.  Sometime wonder how we and others get through it.  Sorry for the tangent.  Your stories brought a knowing tear to my eye.

35971458_2069154033415318_4978246857072312320_n.jpg

33870913_2050343845296337_3374552613306499072_n.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, The Q said:

 

Commiserations on your losses..

 

We have many traditional gaff rigged boats on  the broads the bigger sailing cruisers say up to 40ft + bowsprit have topsails, none need anyone to go up top unless there is a problem, even then they tend to drop the mast which is in a hog mounted tabernackle. Some have their topsail fixed to the main gaff meaning they have to lower that to remove the topsail. most it can just be done on haulyards.

heres a smaller one..

Image result for yachts racing wroxham topsail

Integrated (permanent) Topsail.

246GAFMR.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice Yves-Marie. Call me if you can. I need to get something new from your for SAILING. Maybe this cutter?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what a young boatbuilder came up with, when he and his girlfriend built a modern underbody, kind of traditional gaff cutter:

greet01.jpg

Wishbone rig, also giving it some sort of permanent topsail.

Love it.

greet03.jpg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It absolutely is. 

Look at how high the second reed line is.

Plus kite from the top or minus the outer jib, it makes for a great range, very versatile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lovely design and build. That second reef is really high. I could see one in between 1st and 2nd. But that 2nd reef, as it is now, would put the head right about at the hounds. That works. Love the off center sprit. Preserves that nice stem for the staysail tack.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Integrated (permanent) Topsail.

246GAFMR.JPG

I wish I could see the image better. Very interesting overall-lots of beef underneath! I just can’t see the details of the rig. I think I see a boomkin but I think I see running backstays too...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/3/2018 at 7:29 AM, captain_crunch said:

I have never heard of needing to go aloft for gaff sails. I thought that was only necessary for square sails.

then you don't know much about gaff rigs then. gaff topsails can be either deck set of set from aloft, on smaller gaffers deck set topsails are common but anything above 35-40 ft odds are you're looking at gaff topsails set from aloft. biggest boat I've personally sailed on with a deck set gaff topsail was 72ft sparred and setting and striking that sail was a PITA. you also can have jack yard topsails which can  also be either deck set or set from aloft. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Very nice Yves-Marie. Call me if you can. I need to get something new from your for SAILING. Maybe this cutter?

Thank you as always. So many gaffs, no punt intended.! over the years, Many in steel, wood ;a few aluminum. For another Sailing review of yours, I would rather send you what I am working on. Busy time.

225MRGaf-FY13-12.jpg

882BEYSL.jpg

Pen-Gwyn1.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

then you don't know much about gaff rigs then. gaff topsails can be either deck set of set from aloft, on smaller gaffers deck set topsails are common but anything above 35-40 ft odds are you're looking at gaff topsails set from aloft. biggest boat I've personally sailed on with a deck set gaff topsail was 72ft sparred and setting and striking that sail was a PITA. you also can have jack yard topsails which can  also be either deck set or set from aloft. 

Thank you.  I've never sailed on a gaff-rigged boat.  I've read plenty of accounts of sailing smaller gaff-rigged boats, and I had never seen any mention of going aloft to set topsails.  I wasn't even aware this was an issue for larger gaff-rigged boats.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luckily when I sailed on the NY 40 Marilee back in ‘01 she set her Yards from the deck.

Beautiful old growth Douglas Fir. We built them in Philadelphia and the hull was restored at Cannell and Paine?  Hollow yards and Spars make it easier than in the old days. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Matagi said:

greetchen4_cut.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

A beauty, too

Not cold molded, Oregon-pine, double planked over frames

Where can we find more Information on this boat?  That’s one of the nicest “spirit of tradition” executions ever.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've often daydreamed about the Cornish Shrimper.  There are a few of them in the US, but it's rare to find one for sale.

 

shrimper.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been one for sale on CL Maine for a while for about $18,000. I’ll see if I can find it. It looked really nice to me- just don’t have any more room for cool boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

I've often daydreamed about the Cornish Shrimper.  There are a few of them in the US, but it's rare to find one for sale.

 

shrimper.jpg

They are cool little boats, although I suspect they are rather pokey under sail

I spent a very pleasant time visiting and talking boats with the designer, this was on our short list of trailerable cruisers for a while. They're expensive for what you get, although the European dolly+road trailer system makes a lot of sense (and is even more expensive than a good road trailer).

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

?appId=21791a8992982cd8da851550a453bd7f&

Bylgia, Koopmans design. Boat is still around, it is aluminium. Wishbone rig today is gone, though.

Brought Eilco Kasemier around the world, as so beautifully narrated here:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6sgg7ODx84OoX35Gkk0Y

Eilco passed away this summer, on his 97th birthday.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't understand wishbone rigs. What are they for, when you want to climb the mast, hold on and lean back like a sailboarder?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matagi:

Uffa Fox did a big wishbone ketch in the 1930's I believe. Seems to me it was called WISHBONE. Having that wishbone up high gave him a lot of sail area high where he could not have got it without the wishbone. It had a staysail beneath it to fill in the gap. He also tried a semi wishbone on one of his I-14's. Maybe with CF the results would have been better. One of those ideas waiting for the technology to catch up with it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, eliboat said:

Where can we find more Information on this boat?  That’s one of the nicest “spirit of tradition” executions ever.  

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.yacht-bootswerft-stapelfeldt.de/&prev=search

If you can translate: http://www.yacht-bootswerft-stapelfeldt.de/yacht-greet.pdf

 

Best I've found so far...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

since it's been brought up, this is the 72ft alden schooner Bagheera. with a deck set main gaff topsail, notice a few things 1. no mast hoops on the topsail keeping it snug to the mast, notice that how for to leeward and how far aft the the tack is because the luff line is having to take the strain of the entire luff. 

10917306_10152664974892947_1856000950167051420_n.thumb.jpg.a9e1a4f8ea207fe648eeb9e05908b7a2.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been enjoying my gaff rig. Still figuring out the sail trim, though.

Please excuse the mainsail crease; I fixed it right after the photo was taken.

38442137_10100463450189826_5651968312024760320_n.jpg

47109048_10100502949517856_253205042406883328_o.jpg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Don't understand wishbone rigs. What are they for, when you want to climb the mast, hold on and lean back like a sailboarder?

In this specific case, the design brief was to have no sail larger than 25 sq.m. or so, I think, to make handling easier, and also to have maximum versatility. Especially flying two smaller kites from the two masts here was a common setup for Bylgia.

The danger is of course that the wishbone sheet, once entangled at the top of the mizzen, needs some nasty repair effort aloft (it happened, also depicted in the book)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Illegal Smile said:

I've been enjoying my gaff rig. Still figuring out the sail trim, though.

Please excuse the mainsail crease; I fixed it right after the photo was taken.

38442137_10100463450189826_5651968312024760320_n.jpg

47109048_10100502949517856_253205042406883328_o.jpg

What a pretty boat!

To fix the crease..... I think more snotter tension. You might want to make one out of dyneema with a 2:1 or maybe even cascaded 4:1 purchase.

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

What a pretty boat!

To fix the crease..... I think more snotter tension. You might want to make one out of dyneema with a 2:1 or maybe even cascaded 4:1 purchase.

FB- Doug

 

47 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Ease the peak halyard.

 

Yep! I did both. I'm still figuring out the trim...the shrouds are swept aft enough that it really limits how far out you can ease the main. She'll go like a house afire on a reach, and does surprisingly well to weather, but going DDW is not great. I wind up gybing downwind to keep up boat speed. I'd be interested to see what a small symmetrical spinnaker would do.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Illegal Smile said:

 

Yep! I did both. I'm still figuring out the trim...the shrouds are swept aft enough that it really limits how far out you can ease the main. She'll go like a house afire on a reach, and does surprisingly well to weather, but going DDW is not great. I wind up gybing downwind to keep up boat speed. I'd be interested to see what a small symmetrical spinnaker would do.

 

A long tiller extension so you can get forward wouldn't hurt either...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Illegal Smile said:

 

Yep! I did both. I'm still figuring out the trim...the shrouds are swept aft enough that it really limits how far out you can ease the main. She'll go like a house afire on a reach, and does surprisingly well to weather, but going DDW is not great. I wind up gybing downwind to keep up boat speed. I'd be interested to see what a small symmetrical spinnaker would do.

 

Be almost as much pain in the neck as gybing back & forth? An asymmetric might give you enough of a deeper angle to be worthwhile. How about a blooper?

;)

My experience with sprits is limited, but it suggests that the load on the sprit halyard which I think is also called a heel rope for a boom sprit (snotter.... one of my favorite words) is large. On Optimist Prams, I made snotters out of dyneema single-braid that was WAY over strength, but it really made a difference in setting the sails. Decades ago, my father & I built a series of quick 'n dirty skiffs rigged with leg o'mutton sails and the heel rope always stretched while sailing.

We ended up building a fleet of Bolger "Teals" which were very nice boats, with the sprit halyard / heel rope made of about 1/2" poly (low stretch for the era) and everybody thought it was overkill, but everybody that switched to a smaller rope switched back.

FB- Doug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On December 4, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Matagi said:

greetchen4_cut.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

A beauty, too

Not cold molded, Oregon-pine, double planked over frames

Absolutely beautiful.  Companionway looks just a bit off.  That's a shame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sydney Hereshoff drew my Gauntlet with a wishbone rig and club foot jib. 

It didn’t perform as well as the Sloop rig

I’ll find the copy and take a better pic 

B17A14D2-89AD-436F-B7B2-D240C9649675.jpeg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Al Paca:

Given the orthogonal geometry of the cabin trunk I don't think there were many options on that companionway. I see what you mean but I think it works in that context. Fine looking little boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Absolutely beautiful.  Companionway looks just a bit off.  That's a shame.

Probably, the top of the hatch and slider should have had a bit of camber to 'em.

Boats like this could really revive the gaff rig.  No, it might not be more efficient to weather than a CF mast and Marconi rig but it's light years ahead of most boats that we associate with a gaff rig.  They're usually some multiple of the displacement.  Going light is a game-changer.  I really like the idea behind this one but suspect a cold-molded hull would have made things that much more bettuh!  That said, I've been intrigued with double-planked hulls and would have liked to explore their pros and cons, especially against cold molding...   (these days, I'd be more inclined to do a full foam/glass or carbon hull with that rig---just to get away from the downsides of wood in general.)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites