Bristol-Cruiser

Is Trump willfully ignorant or ... just dumb?

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This is a serious question. Lets take just two 'for instances', climate change and MDS's role in the killing. Completely different parts of the universe but his reaction has been the same. The experts in both cases, the scientific community and the CIA, have reached a conclusion that Donny Numbnuts rejects out of hand. Is this just because he is as dumb as a post or it because he chooses to be ignorant because it suits his narrative - basically something about money and ego?

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He chooses to be ignorant. In the "information age" ignorance is a choice.

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He's a dumb, willfully ignorant, con man with a c or d grade support staff. They couldn't even get the facts right for their Bush prerealease. It's amateur hour.

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49 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

This is a serious question. Lets take just two 'for instances', climate change and MDS's role in the killing. Completely different parts of the universe but his reaction has been the same. The experts in both cases, the scientific community and the CIA, have reached a conclusion that Donny Numbnuts rejects out of hand. Is this just because he is as dumb as a post or it because he chooses to be ignorant because it suits his narrative - basically something about money and ego?

Yes.

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42 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

He chooses to be ignorant. In the "information age" ignorance is a choice.

Actually, I disagree.  Information accessibility does not mean the information is accurate or objective.

Anyone with internet access can broadcast their opinion as fact.  It is up to the reader to separate fact from fiction.

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Actually, I disagree.  Information accessibility does not mean the information is accurate or objective.

Anyone with internet access can broadcast their opinion as fact.  It is up to the reader to separate fact from fiction.

You're quite right, of course.

I hate to paraphrase "don't know what you don't know" Rumsfeld, but Trump chooses to ignore his spooks' high degrees of confidence. Whether that's a good thing or not will play out.

Popcorn.

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9 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

Popcorn.

This is the key to Trump as politician. Entertainment. 

Trump trusts his gut. Trump doesn't care about fact, in part because Trump knows his audience - the ~37% of the US that supports him - don't care about fact. They care about emotion, positioning, optics. This is all media showmanship there's little attempt at governance or statecraft.

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Do you remember when Obama was prez for 8 years and all the people on the right posted topic after topic about obama as if they had some obsession?

Neither do I.

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11 minutes ago, Barnacle Balls said:

Do you remember when Obama was prez for 8 years and all the people on the right posted topic after topic about obama as if they had some obsession?

Neither do I.

You're as willfully ignorant as the buffoon you support. 

There was the whole "Thanks Obama" objection to everything he touched. 

Birtherism. 

"Our job is to see that this president fails" - Actual quote from the House Majority leader. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Neither. He’s a con man. 

I think that con man requires him to check the willful ignorance box.

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7 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

You're as willfully ignorant as the buffoon you support. 

 

I think "buffoon" is a fair criticism.  Willfully ignorant or dumb?  Not so much.

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Just now, jzk said:

I think "buffoon" is a fair criticism.  Willfully ignorant or dumb?  Not so much.

"I believe my gut more than all the people in the intelligence community AND the science community"

If that's not willful ignorance, what is? 

 

Or are you saying he only SAYS those things, fully knowing they are lies, just to pander to his base?  

Neither is what I consider proper behavior for the leader of our country. 

 

 

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Willfully ignorant isn't a fair criticism? FFS Trump said he didn't need to do a briefing for his summit with Xi because he already knows everything he needs to know.

edit @Kirwan it's plainly obvious to everyone but jerkz that Trump's ignorant of much fact. Justice Department lawyers argue this.

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2 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

"I believe my gut more than all the people in the intelligence community AND the science community"

If that's not willful ignorance, what is? 

 

Or are you saying he only SAYS those things, fully knowing they are lies, just to pander to his base?  

Neither is what I consider proper behavior for the leader of our country. 

 

 

I think that Trump embellishes the truth to promote his own ego.  Not all that dissimilar to most politicians.  That you consider plenty of his behavior improper for the leader of our country is a fair criticism.  

Still don't think he is dumb or willfully ignorant.  Let's take his position on trade.  All economists agree that it is nonsense.  All of them.  I had previously thought it to be "most" but I could not find a single economist that agrees with him.  I think he has plenty of advisers to educate him on the subject.  But it is politically advantageous for him to "fight for US jobs" and pander to that crowd.  Then, when he makes some sort of deal with China (that will be worse than just having no agreement at all), he will triumph his victory.  He is wrong, of course, but not dumb or willfully ignorant. 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Neither. He’s a con man. 

Apart from Dog and Malarkey etc, who is he actually conning? 

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10 minutes ago, Kirwan said:
13 minutes ago, jzk said:

I think "buffoon" is a fair criticism.  Willfully ignorant or dumb?  Not so much.

"I believe my gut more than all the people in the intelligence community AND the science community"

If that's not willful ignorance, what is? 

 

Or are you saying he only SAYS those things, fully knowing they are lies, just to pander to his base?  

Neither is what I consider proper behavior for the leader of our country. 

The people who voted for him hate this country and what it stands for. Many of them would rather have a military dictatorship than a democratic republic, ESPECIALLY one where faggots can marry other faggots and black people can vote (the fuckin' nerve!)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/11/military-coup-some-americans-would-vote-yes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/02/16/a-significant-minority-of-americans-say-they-would-support-a-military-takeover-of-the-u-s-in-the-right-circumstances/?utm_term=.80d1f8d36210

That's a big part of how we got where we are. Stupid, spiteful, authoritarian.

-DSK

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46 minutes ago, Barnacle Balls said:

Do you remember when Obama was prez for 8 years and all the people on the right posted topic after topic about obama as if they had some obsession?

Neither do I.

What about Hilary and emails and Bill and.........?

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

What about Hilary and emails and Bill and.........?

Who's Hillary?

 

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The people who voted for him hate this country and what it stands for. Many of them would rather have a military dictatorship than a democratic republic, ESPECIALLY one where faggots can marry other faggots and black people can vote (the fuckin' nerve!)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/11/military-coup-some-americans-would-vote-yes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/02/16/a-significant-minority-of-americans-say-they-would-support-a-military-takeover-of-the-u-s-in-the-right-circumstances/?utm_term=.80d1f8d36210

That's a big part of how we got where we are. Stupid, spiteful, authoritarian.

-DSK

Your first statement is just a lie.  But nothing in your post shows Trump to be stupid or willfully ignorant.  

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Just now, jzk said:

Your first statement is just a lie. 

No, it isn't. Remember the Pledge of Allegiance? "With Liberty and Justice FOR ALL"

Everybody who voted for Trump really believes in "Liberty And Justice For The Chosen Few" they just don't all agree exactly how to choose

-DSK

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18 minutes ago, jzk said:

I think that Trump embellishes the truth to promote his own ego.  Not all that dissimilar to most politicians.  That you consider plenty of his behavior improper for the leader of our country is a fair criticism.  

Still don't think he is dumb or willfully ignorant.  Let's take his position on trade.  All economists agree that it is nonsense.  All of them.  I had previously thought it to be "most" but I could not find a single economist that agrees with him.  I think he has plenty of advisers to educate him on the subject.  But it is politically advantageous for him to "fight for US jobs" and pander to that crowd.  Then, when he makes some sort of deal with China (that will be worse than just having no agreement at all), he will triumph his victory.  He is wrong, of course, but not dumb or willfully ignorant. 

He "embellishes the truth"?  You've got to be fucking kidding me.  "Embellish" does not mean what you think it means. 

The man lies.  He lies for the practice.  He lies all the time.  He lies when it would be better to tell the truth.  He cannot help it.  He's a liar.

em·bel·lish
/əmˈbeliSH/
verb
 
  1. make (something) more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features.

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19 minutes ago, jzk said:

I think that Trump embellishes the truth to promote his own ego.  Not all that dissimilar to most politicians.  That you consider plenty of his behavior improper for the leader of our country is a fair criticism.  

Still don't think he is dumb or willfully ignorant.  Let's take his position on trade.  All economists agree that it is nonsense.  All of them.  I had previously thought it to be "most" but I could not find a single economist that agrees with him.  I think he has plenty of advisers to educate him on the subject.  But it is politically advantageous for him to "fight for US jobs" and pander to that crowd.  Then, when he makes some sort of deal with China (that will be worse than just having no agreement at all), he will triumph his victory.  He is wrong, of course, but not dumb or willfully ignorant. 

Re: quote in red - That is a remarkable statement. Trump is like no other political except perhaps Berlusconi. He does not embellish the truth whatever the hell that means. He lies constantly. He does not even know what the truth is or that it is a good idea not to lie. If you cannot see this you are beyond hope. About what he is done re trade, climate change, MBS being bad for the US and the world and yet he does his thing - it sounds like you are in the 'dumb' (or mentally ill category (for Trump, not you)).

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

No, it isn't. Remember the Pledge of Allegiance? "With Liberty and Justice FOR ALL"

Everybody who voted for Trump really believes in "Liberty And Justice For The Chosen Few" they just don't all agree exactly how to choose

-DSK

Another lie.  "Everybody?"

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4 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

He "embellishes the truth"?  You've got to be fucking kidding me.  "Embellish" does not mean what you think it means. 

The man lies.  He lies for the practice.  He lies all the time.  He lies when it would be better to tell the truth.  He cannot help it.  He's a liar.

em·bel·lish
/əmˈbeliSH/
verb
 
  1. make (something) more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features.

Now, just for the record, did I say that he doesn't lie?

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9 minutes ago, jzk said:

Now, just for the record, did I say that he doesn't lie?

For the record you said he embellishes the truth like other politicians do. We are responsible for what we say or write and that includes you and Trump.

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1 minute ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

For the record you said he embellishes the truth like other politicians do. We are responsible for what we say or write and that includes you and Trump.

Yes, like other politicians.  Politicians lie.  So, if you can't find where I said Trump doesn't lie, maybe move on.

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15 minutes ago, jzk said:

Another lie.  "Everybody?"

Take you, for example. You clearly don't believe in liberty and justice for socialists, whether they are real socialists or just people you dislike and use "socialist" on them as a handy insult.

-DSK

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Take you, for example. You clearly don't believe in liberty and justice for socialists, whether they are real socialists or just people you dislike and use "socialist" on them as a handy insult.

-DSK

Sure I do.  Tell me where I advocated for socialists not to have liberty and justice?   In fact, I highly support socialists forming their own socialist group and providing free shit to each other for as long as they can.  

Why do you need to lie to participate in this discussion?  

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Apart from Dog and Malarkey etc, who is he actually conning? 

I don’t think he’s conning them. He’d lose them in a second if he switched parties. 

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32 minutes ago, jzk said:

Sure I do.  Tell me where I advocated for socialists not to have liberty and justice?   In fact, I highly support socialists forming their own socialist group and providing free shit to each other for as long as they can.  

Why do you need to lie to participate in this discussion?  

Why do you need to accuse me of lying to cover up your own ignorance and prejudices?

Socialists -HAVE- formed their own group and voted in some socialist ideas; you seem to be in favor of stamping that out. You're in favor of democracy only when you agree with the results?

-DSK

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Apart from Dog and Malarkey etc, who is he actually conning? 

pretty much all the Republicans in the US. He's executed a takeover of the Republican party and turned it into a cult of personality.

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2 hours ago, Barnacle Balls said:

Do you remember when Obama was prez for 8 years and all the people on the right posted topic after topic about obama as if they had some obsession?

Neither do I.

No surprise that you can't comprehend the difference between O and T.

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27 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Why do you need to accuse me of lying to cover up your own ignorance and prejudices?

Socialists -HAVE- formed their own group and voted in some socialist ideas; you seem to be in favor of stamping that out. You're in favor of democracy only when you agree with the results?

-DSK

I oppose "democracy" in all sorts of situations.  If 2 people vote to kill the third one with no further information, then I would oppose that.  I opposed socialists banding together and trying to impose their views on me.

I accuse you of lying when you lie.  Why do you need to lie here?  Plenty to criticize Trump about without the need to lie.

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

I oppose "democracy" in all sorts of situations.  If 2 people vote to kill the third one with no further information, then I would oppose that.  I opposed socialists banding together and trying to impose their views on me.

I accuse you of lying when you lie.  Why do you need to lie here?  Plenty to criticize Trump about without the need to lie. 

Agreed, which is why I don't lie. Offended your little prejudices, yes. Lie, no.

OTOH I understand that real life includes many times when I don't get my own way. The principle of democracy is important enough that I can accept results I don't agree with, socialist or not. You apparently do not agree, which is why I say that you do not agree with fundamental American principles (like democracy and equality before the law)

-DSK

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22 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed, which is why I don't lie. Offended your little prejudices, yes. Lie, no.

OTOH I understand that real life includes many times when I don't get my own way. The principle of democracy is important enough that I can accept results I don't agree with, socialist or not. You apparently do not agree, which is why I say that you do not agree with fundamental American principles (like democracy and equality before the law)

-DSK

Few people would want to live in a democracy.  I strongly suspect that you wouldn't like it much.  Democracy is not an American principle.

You lied when you made claims about "everyone" that voted for trump.  You knew it was false when you said it.  Lie.  

Criticizing Trump, of course, does not offend at all.  Plenty there for everyone.

 

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9 minutes ago, jzk said:

Few people would want to live in a democracy.   ...    ...    ...  Democracy is not an American principle. ...    ...    ...

If you don't like democracy then leave.

The USA is a democratic republic, and that -IS- a founding American principle.

-DSK

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15 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

If you don't like democracy then leave.

The USA is a democratic republic, and that -IS- a founding American principle.

-DSK

Yes, democratic republic.  Not democracy.  It is a huge difference.

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5 minutes ago, jzk said:

Yes, democratic republic.  Not democracy.  It is a huge difference.

hillary won the popular vote.

trump should just step down.

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3 hours ago, jzk said:

Yes, like other politicians.  Politicians lie.  So, if you can't find where I said Trump doesn't lie, maybe move on.

If you admitting he lies, why would you take care to say it as "he embellishes the truth"?  That is polishing a turd, plain and simple.

By saying he does this "like other politicians do", you are drawing an equivalence that does not exist in a fact-based reality.

He is entirely different from every other politician.  Hell, a metric shit-ton of people who voted for him said that is WHY they voted for him.

He's an unapologetic liar.  He does not "embellish the truth".  He has no concept of the truth.

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6 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

If you admitting he lies, why would you take care to say it as "he embellishes the truth"?  That is polishing a turd, plain and simple.

By saying he does this "like other politicians do", you are drawing an equivalence that does not exist in a fact-based reality.

He is entirely different from every other politician.  Hell, a metric shit-ton of people who voted for him said that is WHY they voted for him.

He's an unapologetic liar.  He does not "embellish the truth".  He has no concept of the truth.

Crazy that you would spend so much time on the exact wording I used to describe how Trump lies in a thread alleging him to be dumb or willfully ignorant.  

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6 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

This is a serious question. Lets take just two 'for instances', climate change and MDS's role in the killing. Completely different parts of the universe but his reaction has been the same. The experts in both cases, the scientific community and the CIA, have reached a conclusion that Donny Numbnuts rejects out of hand. Is this just because he is as dumb as a post or it because he chooses to be ignorant because it suits his narrative - basically something about money and ego?

Trump says whatever he thinks will sound best or work well at that moment - if it works, he’ll repeat it until doesn’t.  

He uses media as grist for his gut- I think he’s constantly thinking (or churning for a feeling that will work) about this- he doesn’t care if he looks dumb or willfully ignorant- that probably fits part of his shtick.  

I believe he’s feeling furiously all the time in order to inform his words-  I think of it as an old school intelligence- pre Gutenberg- based on his ear, but fed by his ear and eyes.  It’s like he’s constantly (or wants to  be) in a TV studio set, broadcasting.  Mornings are spent watching TV doing market research. And in effect writing scripts to use the rest of the day, which morph as he goes, and I think helps to explain his impatience when he is not the center of attention and he’s not controlling his narrative...

He seems to be constantly working to a closing.  He’s not stupid, and he’s not willfully ignorant- he just uses it all for pre modern, non literate reasons-  he’s a medieval man who knows how to use media-

This might illuminate along these lines (and it’s a great read!):

https://www.amazon.com/Gutenberg-Galaxy-Marshall-McLuhan/dp/144261269X

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I think it's a combination of both. I think that not only is he as dumb as a box of rocks, but he's too ignorant to know it, or accept it. He has handlers who tell him he's a genius, and he's so stupid, he believes them.

 When things go south on him (Like most of his business ventures) he's too ignorant to understand what he's done to other people, and his handlers take care of it, because he's too stupid to do it himself.

Stupid, arrogant, and ignorant are a pretty much lethal combination in the long run.

Leona Helmsley comes to mind.....

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54 minutes ago, jzk said:

Crazy that you would spend so much time on the exact wording I used to describe how Trump lies in a thread alleging him to be dumb or willfully ignorant.  

Almost as crazy as calling lies “embellishing the truth”. But, not quite that bad. 

That’s getting close to Malarkey level bullshit. Dog is hot on your heels. 

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17 minutes ago, Amati said:
6 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

This is a serious question. Lets take just two 'for instances', climate change and MDS's role in the killing. Completely different parts of the universe but his reaction has been the same. The experts in both cases, the scientific community and the CIA, have reached a conclusion that Donny Numbnuts rejects out of hand. Is this just because he is as dumb as a post or it because he chooses to be ignorant because it suits his narrative - basically something about money and ego?

Trump says whatever he thinks will sound best or work well at that moment - if it works, he’ll repeat it until doesn’t

if you had the pleasure of watching his donaldness over the past 30 - 40 years, you would understand that there are things he just doesn't care about - basically anything that doesn't involve money.

he is far from ignorant or stupid, and he is also far from being a diplomat or politician.  his goal is to leave office with a booming ecomony, nothing else matters. to achieve that he'll do whatever he feels he needs to.  screw everything, and if needed, everyone else.  80's bschool stuff on steroids

electing business people to be president is a lesson learned

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4 minutes ago, hermetic said:

if you had the pleasure of watching his donaldness over the past 30 - 40 years, you would understand that there are things he just doesn't care about - basically anything that doesn't involve money.

he is far from ignorant or stupid, and he is also far from being a diplomat or politician.  his goal is to leave office with a booming ecomony, nothing else matters. to achieve that he'll do whatever he feels he needs to.  screw everything, and if needed, everyone else.  80's bschool stuff on steroids

electing business people to be president is a lesson learned

No. His goal is to leave office with his wallet fat. Fuck the rest of the world.

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29 minutes ago, hermetic said:

if you had the pleasure of watching his donaldness over the past 30 - 40 years, you would understand that there are things he just doesn't care about - basically anything that doesn't involve money.

he is far from ignorant or stupid, and he is also far from being a diplomat or politician.  his goal is to leave office with a booming ecomony, nothing else matters. to achieve that he'll do whatever he feels he needs to.  screw everything, and if needed, everyone else.  80's bschool stuff on steroids

electing business people to be president is a lesson learned

Wasn’t Herbert Hoover the last businessman who hadn’t had elective office before he was president?  But he was considered a progressive during the 20’s, IIRR

interesting article:

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/yale-psychiatrist-explains-devotion-trump-based-emotional-patterns-people-grow-age-five/

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Like Michael Jackson, and numerous child stars, he has a warped perception of the world he lives in.  He was raised to be this way.

It's all he knows.  No other person, or thing matters to him unless there's money or fame in it for him.

It's so weird that more people didn't see and be disgusted by that behavior.

 

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1 hour ago, Mrleft8 said:

 

Stupid, arrogant, and ignorant are a pretty much lethal combination in the long run.

 

It's only his background and wealth that protect him.

A stupid, arrogant and ignorant poor man will only get poorer as his wealthy peers takes advantage.

A stupid, arrogant and ignorant, mega rich man can buy a lawyer, pay off accusers, cheat the stupid arrogant ignorant poor man out of his job, his savings, even his life.

Difference between intelligence and rat cunning. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Mike G said:

Like Michael Jackson, and numerous child stars, he has a warped perception of the world he lives in.  He was raised to be this way.

It's all he knows.  No other person, or thing matters to him unless there's money or fame in it for him.

It's so weird that more people didn't see and be disgusted by that behavior.

 

some people admire that behaviour and aspire to be just like him. They think they are in a select club and the president of that club will promote the modus op for their benefit...they didn't read the fine print in the club rules.

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This has been a good discussion so far, in particular if we ignore a few inanities. Heck even a McLuhan reference. Note when I started this I did not say he was/might be ignorant. Rather it is willful ignorance. It is the willfulness aspect that matters. By using it he does not need to address the preponderance of evidence in opposition to the view he wants to take e.g. climate change, MBS, or tariffs. He says whatever shit he wants to saying that his base will support him and he doesn't care about the other 2/3. The flaw in his reasoning is that his base is just not large enough in the long-run to sustain him. The mid-term results showed this as will 2020 especially if the economy continues to tail-off as it seems to be doing. He has always been able to point to a strong economy as his grandest achievement. He does not deserve much of the credit for this. Equally he does not deserve all of the blame he will get if the economy stagnates in the months leading up to his reelection bid.- but he will get it and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

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One vote for dumb. The creators of this used Trudeau since the topic was sciencey. I suspect they could have used a video from any national leader explaining anything and it would have still worked.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-justin-trudeau_us_5c05220ae4b0a173c024fb0f

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42 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

This has been a good discussion so far, in particular if we ignore a few inanities. Heck even a McLuhan reference. Note when I started this I did not say he was/might be ignorant. Rather it is willful ignorance. It is the willfulness aspect that matters. By using it he does not need to address the preponderance of evidence in opposition to the view he wants to take e.g. climate change, MBS, or tariffs. He says whatever shit he wants to saying that his base will support him and he doesn't care about the other 2/3. The flaw in his reasoning is that his base is just not large enough in the long-run to sustain him.....

I’d argue he doesn’t reason in the modern sense, he just reacts, although he seems to take his time reacting, most of the time, in that when he goes off script, it’s what, 95% regurgitated stuff?  :lol:

Wilful ignorance might be the only resort a pre modern man might have to navigate our present reality, and it might be that this is the only instance where Trump knows (however unconsciously) his limitations.  Or fears them. His skill set is his gut, and his inherited wealth, as was said ^^^^^^^^

And as much as I dig McLuhan, I have to remind myself that more than a few scholars labeled his scholarship appalling, which is fitting, in this context at least :rolleyes:.

And maybe this all ^^^^^ is what a post literate cyber literate world looks like?

http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2001/Shannon2.pdf

 

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3 hours ago, hermetic said:

if you had the pleasure of watching his donaldness over the past 30 - 40 years, you would understand that there are things he just doesn't care about - basically anything that doesn't involve money.

he is far from ignorant or stupid, and he is also far from being a diplomat or politician.  his goal is to leave office with a booming ecomony, nothing else matters. to achieve that he'll do whatever he feels he needs to.  screw everything, and if needed, everyone else.  80's bschool stuff on steroids

electing business people to be president is a lesson learned

Actually, The Donald has always been kind of stupid. And he has always been about ego, at least as much as about money

If you have watched any significant part of Donald Trumps career in business, you'd realize that he is a crook and a buffoon. He'd be richer if he'd taken Daddy's money and invested it in gov't bonds. No investor has ever profited from a Trump business. He regularly stiffs his employees, his contractors, his partners, his lawyers. I'll grant that he's brave, it takes guts to stiff your lawyer.

Why would anyone think that a guy who played a rich tycoon on TV, and whose signature line was "You're fired!!" actually cares about the average guy?

-DSK

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Actually, The Donald has always been kind of stupid. And he has always been about ego, at least as much as about money

If you have watched any significant part of Donald Trumps career in business, you'd realize that he is a crook and a buffoon. He'd be richer if he'd taken Daddy's money and invested it in gov't bonds. No investor has ever profited from a Trump business. He regularly stiffs his employees, his contractors, his partners, his lawyers. I'll grant that he's brave, it takes guts to stiff your lawyer.

Why would anyone think that a guy who played a rich tycoon on TV, and whose signature line was "You're fired!!" actually cares about the average guy?

-DSK

That's the issue, imho.  Enough people 'bought the con' to elect him.  (the 1% knew he would be good for them, but they aren't enough to win). 

So maybe the question should be: "Is the electorate stupid or willfully ignorant?"

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2 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

That's the issue, imho.  Enough people 'bought the con' to elect him.  (the 1% knew he would be good for them, but they aren't enough to win). 

So maybe the question should be: "Is the electorate stupid or willfully ignorant?"

This was a fairly common topic of discussion. I don't think they're stupid. I think the people who voted for Trump fall basically into a few categories

1- loyal Republicans who cannot fathom ever voting for a candidate that didn't have an R after their name. My father used to fall into this category, he got off the bus with V.P. Cheney's torture policy. Many others have gotten off the bus, too.

2- the Fox & Friends crowd who were excited to vote for the Anti-Obama. They're ones gleefully pointing out "Who's your President" and all happy at the thought of pissing off libby-rulls. These folk don't think of themselves as "racist" and resent the charge, but they prefer a KKK member to a black guy in the White House. A distressingly large group. A fair amount of overlap with group #1 above.

3- the people who are avowed racists and/or Nazis and/or some other whacko far-right group. These people hate Democrats and Republicans -almost- equally. Most rarely vote, but they came flocking out of the woodwork to vote for Trump, and since had been marching around giving the Hitler salute and shouting "Heil Trump!". Note: Trump's margin in many states is less than the enrollment of the Nazi and skinhead groups in those states.

This is all a matter of emotional adjustment more than it's intelligence. A lot of fairly smart people vote Republican and voted for Trump. They tend to lean authoritarian, the ones I know best were the kind of kids who were pissed off when any other kids got candy. I never understood why, did they really think they should get it all? Apparently.

Welcome to America's dysfunctional family.

-DSK

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3 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

No. His goal is to leave office with his wallet fat. Fuck the rest of the world.

yeah, not sure how hermetic is willfully ignorant of Donald only giving a fuck about Donald.

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11 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

This is a serious question. Lets take just two 'for instances', climate change and MDS's role in the killing. Completely different parts of the universe but his reaction has been the same. The experts in both cases, the scientific community and the CIA, have reached a conclusion that Donny Numbnuts rejects out of hand. Is this just because he is as dumb as a post or it because he chooses to be ignorant because it suits his narrative - basically something about money and ego?

The short answer is yes to both.

He's not an intellectual, but he does have the people-smarts of a conman.

So I think he's willing to play dumb when it suits him, but I also think he has ZERO intellectual curiosity, and will not be bothered to learn anything if he can line his wallet without it. And if a fact or area of knowledge gets in the way of that he will buckle down the with mulish intensity about it and refuse to learn anything contrary to his wishes.

He's like a stubborn, greedy, version of that happy-go-lucky ignorant doofus GW Bush.

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27 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

That's the issue, imho.  Enough people 'bought the con' to elect him.  (the 1% knew he would be good for them, but they aren't enough to win). 

So maybe the question should be: "Is the electorate stupid or willfully ignorant?"

I would bet the 1%ers voted against him 75/25.  The smart ones were terrified of his undeserved self-confidence, his random attention span and his lack of any economic understanding.  There were a fair number greed-heads in the "resource economy" that rubbed their hands with glee at another chance to do a little rape and pillage.

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From a quote in The Guardian, full text under Twitterer in Chief that I posted earlier today.

“Having prosecuted mob bosses,” tweeted Daniel Goldman, a former assistant US attorney in the southern district of New York, “it’s unfair to compare them to Trump. Mob bosses are far smarter and way more savvy and discrete than Trump.”

 

Leads me to believe he is dumb but,  he thinks he's smart-so he's the more dangerous kind of dumb, intoxicated with power he has proven capable of criminal stupidity on a level that makes Nixon and his cohorts appear to be "gentlemen".

 

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6 hours ago, Amati said:

Trump says whatever he thinks will sound best or work well at that moment - if it works, he’ll repeat it until doesn’t.  

He uses media as grist for his gut- I think he’s constantly thinking (or churning for a feeling that will work) about this- he doesn’t care if he looks dumb or willfully ignorant- that probably fits part of his shtick.  

I believe he’s feeling furiously all the time in order to inform his words-  I think of it as an old school intelligence- pre Gutenberg- based on his ear, but fed by his ear and eyes.  It’s like he’s constantly (or wants to  be) in a TV studio set, broadcasting.  Mornings are spent watching TV doing market research. And in effect writing scripts to use the rest of the day, which morph as he goes, and I think helps to explain his impatience when he is not the center of attention and he’s not controlling his narrative...

He seems to be constantly working to a closing.  He’s not stupid, and he’s not willfully ignorant- he just uses it all for pre modern, non literate reasons-  he’s a medieval man who knows how to use media-

This might illuminate along these lines (and it’s a great read!):

https://www.amazon.com/Gutenberg-Galaxy-Marshall-McLuhan/dp/144261269X

I’ve reluctantly come to the same conclusion.   He’s not smart, but he’s not stupid and he’s good at manipulating emotions.   

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

He's like a stubborn, greedy, version of that happy-go-lucky ignorant doofus GW Bush.

Shitstain does bring I'm the decider to mind.

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6 minutes ago, Lark said:

I’ve reluctantly come to the same conclusion.   He’s not smart, but he’s not stupid and he’s good at manipulating emotions.   

the problem with the "not stupid" line is - things have changed and trump hasn't. take this exchange:

Dtax5S6U8AUZrY5.jpg

from today. the Donald's  used to being able to bullshit on the record and tell the truth off the record, he can't grasp things have changed. realizing change is intelligence. and he doesn't get it.

I'm not saying Donald didn't have a mastery of "gut level" communication. He did. I'm just not sure how much that was innate intelligence/genius, and how much of it was being the only fool to attempt it at this level. Aides in the white house called him Chauncey Gardner FFs.

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9 hours ago, Barnacle Balls said:

tumblr_ofm2q6BVdu1sk9i0co1_500.gif

Sorry, but your boy Trump has that one locked down in perpetuity.

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7 hours ago, Barnacle Balls said:
8 hours ago, jzk said:

Yes, democratic republic.  Not democracy.  It is a huge difference.

trump should just step down.

 
Oh, yeah - huge difference - HUGE
 
Almost Yuge in fact.
 
:lol::rolleyes:
 
re·pub·lic
/rəˈpəblik/
noun
noun: republic; plural noun: republics
  1. a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
     
    de·moc·ra·cy
    /dəˈmäkrəsē/
    noun
    noun: democracy
    1. a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

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3 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

the problem with the "not stupid" line is - things have changed and trump hasn't. take this exchange:

Dtax5S6U8AUZrY5.jpg

from today. the Donald's  used to being able to bullshit on the record and tell the truth off the record, he can't grasp things have changed. realizing change is intelligence. and he doesn't get it.

I'm not saying Donald didn't have a mastery of "gut level" communication. He did. I'm just not sure how much that was innate intelligence/genius, and how much of it was being the only fool to attempt it at this level. Aides in the white house called him Chauncey Gardner FFs.

 I have a lower opinion average or near average intelligence.   A lot of old people can not grasp change.   He seems near average in intelligence for my community, but lacks useful job skills.   

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2 hours ago, Kirwan said:

So maybe the question should be: "Is the electorate stupid or willfully ignorant?"

The Trump electorate is stupid.

Pure and simple.

They put a guy in office who will fuck them up with every action he takes - and they love him for it because his words are aimed directly at their fears & hatreds - all their worst instincts.

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11 hours ago, Barnacle Balls said:

Do you remember when Obama was prez for 8 years and all the people on the right posted topic after topic about obama as if they had some obsession?

Neither do I.

That has to be the most delusional post I have ever read on this forum. Truly remarkable.

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5 minutes ago, benwynn said:
12 hours ago, Barnacle Balls said:

Do you remember when Obama was prez for 8 years and all the people on the right posted topic after topic about obama as if they had some obsession?

Neither do I.

That has to be the most delusional post I have ever read on this forum. Truly remarkable.

Well, this probably isn't what he meant, but you don't have to "remember" it. It's still going on. The rabid righties are -still- shitposting about Obama

He's guilty of PWB...... Presidenting While Black

-DSK

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15 minutes ago, benwynn said:

That has to be the most delusional post I have ever read on this forum. Truly remarkable.

Well, Chessie thinks the lefties are much more asshole-y than righties on this forum.

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Well, Chessie thinks the lefties are much more asshole-y than righties on this forum.

We are never short of victims around here. 

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23 minutes ago, benwynn said:

That has to be the most delusional post I have ever read on this forum. Truly remarkable.

Kinda appropriate, given the thread title, no?

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I believe the proper term is "Asswholesome"

 Like   a good hearty breakfast, riding your horse on your 30 acres before going in to your job as a lobbyist in DC.....

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4 hours ago, Amati said:

I’d argue he doesn’t reason in the modern sense, he just reacts, although he seems to take his time reacting, most of the time, in that when he goes off script, it’s what, 95% regurgitated stuff?  :lol:

Wilful ignorance might be the only resort a pre modern man might have to navigate our present reality, and it might be that this is the only instance where Trump knows (however unconsciously) his limitations.  Or fears them. His skill set is his gut, and his inherited wealth, as was said ^^^^^^^^

And as much as I dig McLuhan, I have to remind myself that more than a few scholars labeled his scholarship appalling, which is fitting, in this context at least :rolleyes:.

And maybe this all ^^^^^ is what a post literate cyber literate world looks like?

http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2001/Shannon2.pdf

 

And that is a scary thought, in and of itself. I think that you are wrong, but I fear that you are not.

On a different matter entirely, it is my understanding that if NAFTA is terminated without NAFTA 2.0 coming into place we revert to the old Canada-US Free Trade Agreement which wouldn't be a bad thing for both countries.

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It's not a matter of if he's willfully ignorant or Dumb. He's a malignant narcissist . They will do anything to feed their ego and need constant supply (People to fawn over them and people to bully) The normal MN usually destroys everyone and everything for no better reason than "I can" then, when things finally get too hot, jump ship, leaving chaos behind and move on and usually up..Trump has nowhere to move on and up to.

He'll never be satisfied with anything less than POTUS..If he's still there 2020-2024 watch out for the attempts by any means to extend the presidency for another 4 years..and beyond.

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23 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It's not a matter of if he's willfully ignorant or Dumb. He's a malignant narcissist . They will do anything to feed their ego and need constant supply (People to fawn over them and people to bully) The normal MN usually destroys everyone and everything for no better reason than "I can" then, when things finally get too hot, jump ship, leaving chaos behind and move on and usually up..Trump has nowhere to move on and up to.

He'll never be satisfied with anything less than POTUS..If he's still there 2020-2024 watch out for the attempts by any means to extend the presidency for another 4 years..and beyond.

He'll go for King of the World next.

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15 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Neither. He’s a con man. 

Well ain't your President good to you 

It's call Snake Oil why y'all 
It's been around for a long, long time

not bad for a red neck tRump supporter ............

he's got some good songs though .

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

This is a serious question. Lets take just two 'for instances', climate change and MDS's role in the killing. Completely different parts of the universe but his reaction has been the same. The experts in both cases, the scientific community and the CIA, have reached a conclusion that Donny Numbnuts rejects out of hand. Is this just because he is as dumb as a post or it because he chooses to be ignorant because it suits his narrative - basically something about money and ego?

He is wrong about climate change but right about what not to do about it. 

As for MDS we would have to sever ties with every nation I can think of including ourselves if you apply the same standard.  There is no perfect answer in such a case.  The collapse of the Saudi royal family is a vacuum Iran would be all to happy to fill. 

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8 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

He is wrong about climate change but right about what not to do about it. 

As for MDS we would have to sever ties with every nation I can think of including ourselves if you apply the same standard.  There is no perfect answer in such a case.  The collapse of the Saudi royal family is a vacuum Iran would be all to happy to fill. 

Wow, a thoughtful response.  Well said and I agree with most but Trump has to make a show of strength against MBS and we can afford the hit on oil prices.  He can only realistically suck one dick at a time and until Vlad pulls out...

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8 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Wow, a thoughtful response.  Well said and I agree with most but Trump has to make a show of strength against MBS and we can afford the hit on oil prices.  He can only realistically suck one dick at a time and until Vlad pulls out...

Unless I am responding to a messenger attack I always  give thoughtful responses. 

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7 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Unless I am responding to a messenger attack I always  give thoughtful responses. 

No you don't but thanks for this last one.

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12 hours ago, Kirwan said:

So maybe the question should be: "Is the electorate stupid or willfully ignorant?"

Again, the answer is "Yes".

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14 hours ago, Amati said:

I’d argue he doesn’t reason in the modern sense, he just reacts, although he seems to take his time reacting, most of the time, in that when he goes off script, it’s what, 95% regurgitated stuff?  :lol:

Wilful ignorance might be the only resort a pre modern man might have to navigate our present reality, and it might be that this is the only instance where Trump knows (however unconsciously) his limitations.  Or fears them. His skill set is his gut, and his inherited wealth, as was said ^^^^^^^^

And as much as I dig McLuhan, I have to remind myself that more than a few scholars labeled his scholarship appalling, which is fitting, in this context at least :rolleyes:.

And maybe this all ^^^^^ is what a post literate cyber literate world looks like?

http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2001/Shannon2.pdf

 

from your cite - very astute - thank you:

"Shannon quantified the amount of information in a signal, stating that is the amount of unexpected data the message contains. He called this information content of a message ‘entropy’. In digital communication a stream of unexpected bits is just random noise."

his donaldness is looking for new markets, and bits of random noise - expected or unexpected - from the americas, europe, or the media are merely filtered out in the pursuit of the goal.  he can always talk over the noise.

willful ignorance is probably the wrong term

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30 minutes ago, hermetic said:

from your cite - very astute - thank you:

"Shannon quantified the amount of information in a signal, stating that is the amount of unexpected data the message contains. He called this information content of a message ‘entropy’. In digital communication a stream of unexpected bits is just random noise."

his donaldness is looking for new markets, and bits of random noise - expected or unexpected - from the americas, europe, or the media are merely filtered out in the pursuit of the goal.  he can always talk over the noise.

willful ignorance is probably the wrong term

What else would you call it?  

Distortion?  (Like in recording, when there’s too much signal for the pan)

System overload?  

Chaf?  As in anti missile aircraft defense?

thing is, he does make his own noise, even using other people to create it when he needs cover- so ‘squirrel’ or distraction work...

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