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Been away from this for a while,  

Sorry harryproa but IMHO surface piercing, kick up rudders suck.

Inefficient in their primary task - that of steering and balancing the boat due to the lack of an end plate with associated ventilation and cavitation. Susceptible to damage both when fully deployed due to compromised/complicated design and when kicked up with diminished blade support particularly when the now, uncontrolled vessel turns head to wind and proceeds to make a stern board as you struggle to re - deploy/fix the damn thing.

The rudder is typically the second or third part of the vessel to take a hit after the bow and the keel/dagger board.

It's not hard to build a shock absorber into a dagger board case or install crash bulkheads/floor in all the bows.

I prefer big, solid shafts that run around two thirds of the length of the blade such that in the event of a serious collision - big log, rock - the tip breaks away.

I have enjoyed total reliability with three of the four boats I have sailed offshore over the last forty four years. The fourth was a kick up spade rudder that was bent with a stern board onto a rock and that was because the shaft was a full length tube - I learned and remembered a lesson that day and sailed all of fifteen thousand miles in that boat after I replaced the shaft.

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Picture surfing at 23 knots, dagger board mostly up, main hull bow clear of the water and running over something on or just below the surface (log, rock, whale, shipping container).  It knocks off your daggerboard sacrificial tip, then hits your solid rudder shaft, securely fixed in it's heavily reinforced rudder tube.   The shaft bends and/or the tube is ripped out.  If neither of these happens, the boat stops, near enough immediately.  Anyone not strapped in gets thrown forward at the best part of 20 knots, stopping when they hit something hard.  The safety aspect in this scenario is why I use and specify kick up rudders.   The repair bill, time lost and weight saved are secondary.      

Break away tips and crash boxes are fine if you enjoy rebuilding rudders and dagger boards and never hit anything above the tip or at high speed.  How much 2" wide (width of the daggerboard) foam do you need in your crash box to absorb 3 tons travelling at 20+ knots?  Imagine doing this in your car (maybe 1.5 tons) at 25 mph/40 kph if it helps visualise the problem.  If the board is partially raised, so that the sharp trailing edge hits the foam, it is even less likely to absorb the impact.     

With a little lateral thinking, it is so much easier, lighter and cheaper to make rudders (and daggerboards in cats), kick up.  

The kick up rudders that work best on cats and tris involve a hinged section of the stern lifting, bringing the rudder and it's tube with it.  A line holds it down, which is easy to deploy.      Rudders in kick up sterns are as efficient as fixed rudders, have an end plate, are not susceptible to damage, are simple to design and build,  fully supported up and down and it is no struggle to re-deploy the damn thing as all you have to do is pull the string next to the helm position, which takes a few seconds.        

Surface piercing rudders work fine on high speed skiffs and foilers.  They "just" need the correct section shapes.  Failing that, an end plate is pretty easy to fit on the top of the rudder.  

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OK, Here goes - Picture surfing at 23 knots - yeah done that hundreds of times but if the water is deep enough the dagger board is all the way down cos the boat tracks better and goes faster that way, the main hull bow would be clear of the water if we were close reaching in flat water but the 23 would be sustained - do any of your boats do that?Check out the video that started this blog, my boat does, anyway, surfing or going downhill on the front of a wave, well, the the main hull bow would not be out of the water, in fact I would probably be counting on the reserve buoyancy up front preventing stuffing the next wave and if anything is out of the water it's the ass end. So now we hit something on or just below the surface -

Log - that mashes in the bow and we ride up over it as the boat slows and the leading edge of the board takes a hell of a hit so at 23 the bow has a hole in it and the board is going to need some work! I am glad I am in a multihull cos she ain't gonna sink but, because the boat is light (8,000 fully loaded) and strong, I would bet that she would absorb that impact without rupturing the daggerboard case or smashing the bow beyond the first two bulkheads.

Rock - what kind of dumb ass surfs at 23 knots when there are rocks just below the surface, course it breaks the boat.

Whale, depends how big that puppy is - Oh - real life experience - Phil Steggall, you know, the guy that still holds the record for the fastest E-W Singlehanded Transat is driving Skateaway upwind at 14 knots - do your boats do that - and I am down below making us a cuppa tea when WHAM we stop and the tea and I go flying foreword - what was that? Phil said he saw a fin, maybe a big sunfish or a small whale but now we are doing 14 again - damage - NOTHING. 

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Shipping container - it's gonna hurt - again it's a question of slowing to a halt without rupturing anything - tough call. I would bet that the damage would not extend back to the rudder.

How many times have you run aground at 19 knots on hard sand? We do it all the time as Skateaway hits 19 routinely and I love to blast up and down Barnegat Bay any time there is a brisk, cold, punchy northwesterly blowing. So what happens is there is a very abrupt deceleration, the bow rolls down, we stop then lift the board a little and sail off. At the end of the season I apply a few layers of sacrificial glass to the tip of the board.

I did hit a rock that stopped us at 8 knots off Cuttyhunk years ago (Skateaway draws 10' 6" and it's a rock strewn tidal area) We were heading to the start of a race so we hauled out the board and slapped some locally sourced Bondo on the tip cos that ragged edge was gonna slow us down, no other damage.

So sorry Pal, but at 23 knots (39 feet per second) there is no way your kick up rudder is going to survive impacting any of your examples, undamaged. Go run over something at that speed, if you can go that fast, and see.

Who said anything about break away tips on the daggerboard?  Read it again, that was on the rudder 'cos I really like a bit of rudder left to get me home.

Who said anything about a 2" wide piece of foam to crush, you need something resilient to absorb the shock. The daggerboard is 4" wide and there is a full length door running down the length of the fragile trailing edge with a spring behind it. The spring that I fashioned 27 years ago is as good as new, it should be as it has taken dozens of hits but has a multi million cycle life.

Mr Ralph Nader compelled US auto manufacturers to equip their cars with shock absorbing bumpers capable of handling impacts of similar weights at similar speeds without damage to the structure almost fifty years ago, it's not hard, actually because of the rotational deceleration and lack of any depth constraint whilst suspended in a medium a thousand times more viscous than air it becomes less problematic.

I considered such impacts when I designed the underwater foils and the necessary structure to support them in the hull, and I succeeded.

Kick up rudders on a hinged aft section of the hull - are you kidding - that extra mass ensures the foils demise and adds a shit load of weight with the whole nine yards dependent on an upper hinge - Oh Boy - just lost the back end of the boat!

And yeah, surface piercing rudders might be OK on skiffs in flat water but this ain't a skiff and staying in flat water restricts your cruising waters a lot.

So I designed, built and own an extremely rapid fixed spade rudder equipped 40' trimaran with a massive, spring loaded daggerboard in front of it and a pretty rapid 44' cat with massive fixed keels with 2" thick hi-density foam cored end plates on them. I used to own a kick up spade equipped 34' trimaran with a hollow stainless steel centerboard in front of it and way back a fixed spade rudder equipped twin cast iron bilge keeled monohull. 

The only rudder problem I ever had was on the kick up version mentioned previously.

All the stern mounted kick up rudders I have experienced were flimsy and failed in blades and heads, I did not design or build any of the, only suffered their shortcomings and learned my lessons.

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Suspect the engineering calcs of touching the tip on soft sand 10' below the boat and impact of something hard and massive at the top of the board will be quite different.  I'd be pretty amazed if anything can be counted on to survive that unless it kicks up.  The extra inertia of the folding mechanism cannot be harder work than rotating/stopping an entire boat.

kickup rudders on newicks, hughes, schionnings etc.  they're spending extra money to be worse?

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Cool video, nice boat and fun examples, but none of them alter the fact that a kick up rudder, designed properly, will save a lot of grief.  

We are talking rudders (Post 101 you said "I prefer big, solid shafts that run around two thirds of the length of the blade such that in the event of a serious collision - big log, rock - the tip breaks away."), not daggerboards or bows.

You had a problem with a kick up rudder and redesigned the rudder.  I am sure that if you had applied the same thought and energy to redesigning the kick up mechanism, it would have succeeded, you would have saved a lot of weight and work, and would never have to build new tips.

2 hours ago, boardhead said:

Kick up rudders on a hinged aft section of the hull - are you kidding - that extra mass ensures the foils demise and adds a shit load of weight with the whole nine yards dependent on an upper hinge - Oh Boy - just lost the back end of the boat!

A small bulkhead, 2 hinges, and a short wooden dowel hardly constitutes "extra mass".   How does it "ensure the foil's demise"?  The weight is minute compared to that required to make a bullet proof shaft and it's housing.    

A correctly designed upper hinge is far more likely to survive and stay attached to the boat in a collision than a "bullet proof" rudder shaft.  

Re your Nader claims,  starting at 44 secs, 25 mph = 21.7 knots

Imagine the car is your 8,000 lb tri and the wall a submerged container.  And that you are standing in the cockpit (or on the roof of the car).    Now imagine that the 2,800 lb car is almost 3 times as heavy and instead of the 7' wide crush zone at the front of the car, the suspension, seat belts, tyres and airbags,  the entire impact was against a 4" wide spring or a "bulletproof" rudder shaft.   

A rudder in a hinged section of the stern, held down by a wooden dowel, hinged cleat or drilled out jammer kicks up with little or no damage.  The IMOCA and Classe 40 monos realised this years ago and installed stern hung, surface piercing, kick up rudders.    Not sure why it has taken the multis so long to figure it out, but if they did,  Macif would have won the last Route de Rhum and Spindrift might still be on the way to a new Jules Verne record.    If you include impact damaged daggerboards and foils as well as rudders, the list of lost races and interrupted cruises is long.  

I don't see why it is relevant, but my top speed steering a 12m/40' tri is 27 knots (Verbatim/Bullfrog Brisbane-Gladstone 1987).    The fastest I have been on one of  "my boats" (harryproas) is 20 knots.  Nothing to write home about, but if we had hit something, the combined rudders/daggerboards would have kicked up, been put back down and we would have continued.    Why do you say they wouldn't?   

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, bigmarv said:

Suspect the engineering calcs of touching the tip on soft sand 10' below the boat and impact of something hard and massive at the top of the board will be quite different.  I'd be pretty amazed if anything can be counted on to survive that unless it kicks up.  The extra inertia of the folding mechanism cannot be harder work than rotating/stopping an entire boat.

kickup rudders on newicks, hughes, schionnings etc.  they're spending extra money to be worse?

He has an interesting rubber stopper that allows the daggerboard to deflect  aft several inches and there is literally not one iota of damage to  any part of his boat after 27 successful years.

I’ve also been aboard his 34’ trimaran (hopefully soon to be mine)and unfortunately one of the past owners somehow lost the rudder on a mooring and it will need a new one. The Farrier cassette rudder that was built for it is impractical and unnecessary for the design and it will be replaced with a new set rudder in carbon which is already available with a spare in case...

There may be more loose shipping containers and other large ufo’s in your sailing area than the relatively shallow and docile mid eastern seaboard of the USA. If a ufo is hit square on, I’d suspect damage to kick up appendages and if the object is hit at an angle less than 90 degrees I’d think less damage. If your rudder shaft is solid and 2/3ds into the foil and you snap off the tip you can still steer the boat. If the solid shaft is bent, obviously you’re screwed. It works around here...sand, mud and little underwater topography. 

I like the Harryproas myself and think they’d be a load of fun around our area.

Sounds like 2 really intelligent guys working out the kinks for the rest of us here. Keep it up!

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I think the whole end plate thing is a bit over stated. There are plenty of beach cats with transom hung rudders that go pretty fast. Any foiling catamaran also has no end plate working for it once it is up on the foils.

A center hung center board that is incorporated into an extended loggeron  makes a lot of sense to me .  I hope this gets tried in a modern performance cruising catamaran. 

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if rudders only ever hit on the tip

3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

He has an interesting rubber stopper that allows the daggerboard to deflect  aft several inches and there is literally not one iota of damage to  any part of his boat after 27 successful years.

I’ve also been aboard his 34’ trimaran (hopefully soon to be mine)and unfortunately one of the past owners somehow lost the rudder on a mooring and it will need a new one. The Farrier cassette rudder that was built for it is impractical and unnecessary for the design and it will be replaced with a new set rudder in carbon which is already available with a spare in case...

There may be more loose shipping containers and other large ufo’s in your sailing area than the relatively shallow and docile mid eastern seaboard of the USA. If a ufo is hit square on, I’d suspect damage to kick up appendages and if the object is hit at an angle less than 90 degrees I’d think less damage. If your rudder shaft is solid and 2/3ds into the foil and you snap off the tip you can still steer the boat. If the solid shaft is bent, obviously you’re screwed. It works around here...sand, mud and little underwater topography. 

I like the Harryproas myself and think they’d be a load of fun around our area.

Sounds like 2 really intelligent guys working out the kinks for the rest of us here. Keep it up!

a few inches' movement before stopping is not much at those speeds and forces.  and unless the spring is extraordinary most of the velocity will still be there when it hits the stop, so I really don't think he's hitting something massive and solid (gentle sloping sand, quite different) at the high speeds and being relaxed. 

a break off tip on a rudder only protects against low impact.  fast low rocker multis will take most floating objects higher up. have a look at the diameter shaft on monos designed to survive rudder impact at much lower speeds.  you just can't fit that on a good high speed foil.  i seems very obvious that a kick up rudder can be designed robustly and that it will cope with impact better and more safely.  True, you might have low impact risk where you are especially if the whales are gone, but in the rest of the world it's not like that.  whales, containers, ice, whatever.  waterlogged logs from major rivers that roll easily under the hull barely slowing you until they hit the board or rudder.  that sort of thing.

if you`re coastal sailing where you are then care in the shallows covers much risk.  on long passages and in many areas not so.  rob`s just right about that i think.

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2 hours ago, steve g said:

I think the whole end plate thing is a bit over stated. There are plenty of beach cats with transom hung rudders that go pretty fast. Any foiling catamaran also has no end plate working for it once it is up on the foils.

A center hung center board that is incorporated into an extended loggeron  makes a lot of sense to me .  I hope this gets tried in a modern performance cruising catamaran. 

I wouldn't go that far. Most of the C-class cats have end plated rudders hung under the transoms. Same with all the high performance tries (check MOD 70 for example, swing up central rudder but fixed rudders on the amas). The beachcat scene go for transom hung rudders for a few reasons:

1. Most of these systems were designed/based on much older tech from the 80'-90's. Why change what works?

2. Its still convenient to be able to kick up your rudders when coming into the beach or launching/landing area. Harder to deal with fixed rudders when you don't have a shore crew to help launch the boat.

3. Its much easier to manage when on the beach if you have no appendages sticking out.

The foiling boats are moving to cassette rudders (stiffer, reduced wobble) and still have an end plate working for them in the form of a T-rudder. The downside of the cassettes is handling on the beach is reduced with much more chance of damage to the T-foil that is sticking out the side of the hull.

Steve Clark built a Vanguard Vector that deviated quite a lot from the factory spec. One of the features it had was a kick up cassette rudder, which I think is a pretty neat innovation. You still have to deal with the tiller arm but he managed all that on that particular boat so it is possible. Needed on an ocean boat? No, plenty of monohulls sailing with fixed rudders!!

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Rob / bigmarv, 

perhaps the old saying   " you can lead a horse to water,  but you can't make it drink. "     would be appropriate here... ?   :rolleyes:

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So should I get a kick up retractable bulb keel and rudder for my Fareast28R? It does 25 knots as a monohull. Do you think there would be a different outcome at that speed?

Dead stop and people thrown forward and board trashed. 

There are different approaches I suppose. Boardhead engineered, designed and built his trimaran for himself. He does not build for others so he can have an opinion. If Rob is building for the masses, he can do as he sees best. 

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Sail4 - if you can easily and cheaply manage that with your 28 foot bulb keel boat then go for it, but you can't.  The point here is that you can with fast multis. 

It's pretty different if you leave local waters.  a bent rudder shaft, or a hole ripped in the bottom of a boat a long way from a hoist or help is not funny.  Different rudder risks on your mono with a keel always in the way. but then what modern thin keel could withstand a dead stop hit at 25 knots?  

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Whoa - lot to talk about here, Thanks for defense Sail4beer but I'm a big boy, I knew what I wanted and would not change a damn thing on this boat.

Crashing into a semi submerged, substantial object at 23 knots and getting away with it, unscathed, pretty tall order.

bigmarv, I totally respect that you may have sailed more offshore than I have but we certainly "left our local waters"  We built our first trimaran in UK cruised and raced her there for two seasons including crossing the Biscay Bay twice and getting second, twice, in the 410 mile Chrystal Trophy then bringing her to the US by way of Spain, Portugal, Canaries, Windwards, Virgins, Bahamas and east coast up to Maine then racing , won the 1987Great Ocean Race and cruising back and forth to New England for seven years, well over 15,000 miles, exposed to plenty of potential collisions. That 32' Kelsall had low aspect fins on the amas and a very solidly built kick up spade rudder with a 2 1/4" diameter, 1/4" wall stainless steel shaft. During our 1,100 mile shake down cruise to Portugal we weathered a full southwesterly gale in Biscay during which we made an astonishing amount of leeway sailing cracked off upwind in some big stuff. The boat performed well in flatter water, we beat Moxie, Boatfile, Livery Dole, Boanerges and all but Sanskara in the 1980 CT, but that winter I cut out the low aspect fins and fitted a heavy built (14 gauge st. st. skinned) hollow foil section centerboard in an offset foam cored, glass skinned case. We bent the rudder shaft when we missed a tack and did a stern board onto the rocks sailing out of the river Yealm. The shaft was replaced with the same spec tube, never sustained any other damage in my ownershjp. We flattened the 1" diameter tube that formed the centerboard's leading edge when we ran into something big, the 7/16" downhaul line was secured by an OI jammer with a modified cam. that was the total underwater damage, we never hit anything at 23 kts, the max sustained was 18 with maybe a little more in a surf, max covered in an hour 13.8 miles. In 1986 we cut that boat into seven pieces then re-assembled her three feet longer, two feet wider, non demountable (she was originally) and with the lengthened amas re-aligned such that the rudder remained fully immersed as the boat loaded up and lifted the main hull when pressed. When we raced her in 1987 we beat a new Condor 40 boat for boat and we found that our modified 34' Kelsall offered better accommodation and performance than the best production 40' trimaran available at the time. Our learning curve.

 

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How many times did the centerboard or rudder kick up underway - never -  except when running aground in shallow water. Why did we choose kick up (retractable) rudder/centerboard and, before, low aspect keels? Because the boat berthed in a tidal, drying estuary.

I grew up sailing a Mk 1 Iroquois cat, a works example of which won the 1966 Round Britain Race, a rocket ship in her day, clocked at 20 knots in flat water in 1965. That boat was equipped with flat plate, quadrant profile, centerboards and dinghy type, kick up rudders. We broke the, well maintained, rudders at least four times - glad we had two - you only get one on a small trimaran. We snapped off the beautiful birds eye maple blades twice and burst the main bodies twice that I recall. The inefficient centerboards made a hell of a racket at speed and the boat made lots of leeway. Interestingly that boat, # 22, was the only one of more than 200 built that circumnavigated, she now sports two short mast's, one in each hull with junk rig sail profiles. We raced and cruised her on the south coast of England for eleven years covering maybe 4,000 miles including surviving a force 10 storm in the Straits of Dover which included bare poles surfing over 20 knots (pegged VDO Sumlog) deploying a drogue to quell that surfing and entering Dover Harbor in those conditions, more learning curve!

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   So Skateaway was designed to incorporate all we had learned and provide a safe, fast vessel with a payload to sustain the two of us for a year, we figured 2,000 pounds. We had also renovated, modified and offshore cruised a monohull for starters, it had to be a trimaran. I had built models as a kid, read everything AYRS and Multihulls International put out in the 60's and 70's. To date I have sailed on more than fifty different multihulls, delivering many up and down the eastern seaboard in calms and gales, I love this stuff.

So back to that 23 knot collision, harryproa, that Toyota looks pretty unblemished at the ass end - that's where the rudder resides. Also it's a totally different kind of deceleration as the car smashes into a fixed vertical surface while my trimaran rides up and over an object that likely submerges or rotates. The car has to absorb the energy within a relatively short structure and nowhere to deflect.

My boat does a sustained 25 knots in flat water, Bullfrog was a fantastic boat for her day - did anybody ever do better - I remember reading "Return in the Wake" where Cathy said she was clocked at 28 knots in Sydney Harbor. They hit a whale - pictures of the damage in the book, it's ugly.

Anyway, the bow and the daggerboard take the hit first and the bow and board damage Bullfrog sustained confirm that but I never read anything about the little fixed spade rudder being an issue. Bullfrog now sports a kick up stern section which carries the rudder. My contention there is that the added mass of the stern section will increase the magnitude of the reaction to an impact which may not fare any better than the blade crumpling as the stern rises up over the object encountered. 

My daggerboard and rudder are massively strong but light, both offering a good degree of positive flotation to the boat. The board has taken plenty of hits, all causing easily repaired, superficial damage. We don't spend much time at 23 knots, lots at 18 but mostly at 7 to 15 and realistically I believe we could collide with a variety of objects at the lower numbers and get away with it - we have so far. 

When we won the NEMA season trophy back in 1996 we commuted the boat back and forth to Newport/Marthas Vineyard from New Jersey five times, that's 2,000 just getting to the starts, we did the Newport/Bermuda (67 hours), Solo Twin, BBR, BDD, Newport Unlimited and a couple of family cruises - must have been lucky. I well remember seeing what looked like a length of a wooden pier outside Newport sailing home from the 1992 Newport Unlimited, good bit above the surface, maybe 8' x 6' with a foot rising up and down in the chop, glad we missed that one.

The rudder has enough float that it's all I can do to force it down under the stern and insert the 3' diameter solid 6061 T6 shaft up into the Torlon roller bearing filled housing.

The daggerboard is seventeen feet long so it's supported at the deck and keel exit when fully lowered, it's 4" wide, 32" fore and aft, solid foam core with a shit load of uni glass on it, angled aft to put the CLR in the right place and initiate an upward lift as the boat rotates foreword in a collision. The case is 5" longer at the bottom than the top, a 5" x 4" x 8" chunk of 60 durometer rubber, drilled like a swiss cheese absorbs the hit. Fully loaded at 8,000 pounds there will be more damage at a given speed than her light ship weight of 5,600 pounds, make it strong and light and all kinds of benefits become a reality.

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DSCN5780.thumb.JPG.72e3b0038bdfe8790fca60c27a2f8e1d.JPG

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Boardhead,

Small world.  I bought Iroquois #300 hull and decks and fitted it out.  Sailed it to Greece and back to the UK, fitted a 9.6m windmill to it, then gave it to my father in law who fitted 2 x 30 hp outboards.   Last I heard it is sailing again in Cornwall.   Loved the quadrant boards , but shape and fit were important.  Had long chats with Reg White and Rod about Tornado rudder profiles, which are the same as the Iroquois.  Broke a couple of rudders, until I made them vertical and kick up.  

Spoke to Cathy.  Bullfrog/Verbatim  broke it's rudder when they hit something  in the 1988 Round Australia race.  Sailed into Eden (95% of the race completed), towing the drogue for steerage.  It would have cost them the race if their ground crew had not been really well organised.   

Thanks for the interesting discussion.  Looks like we agree to disagree about kick up rudders, impact damage, whether a daggerboard is seamanlike and what constitutes a 'light' multi (this 50' harryproa weighed 4,400 lbs/2 tons lightship, incl kick up appendages) and the mass of a kick up stern section.   None of which is a problem, it would be boring if all boats and designers were the same.  

Rob

Windmill.jpg

Blind date launch pic.jpg

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This is the kind of disagreement that doesn’t lead to hurt feelings and helps the discussion.

Thanks guys!!

I’m going to have to look up that windmill rig...

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That's an amazing small world! My Iroquois experience was as a fifteen year old, launch day we pushed her through the streets of Brightlingsea from the Sail Craft shop to the beach and waited for the tide to float her off the skate. The mast was late so they stepped the taller, double spreader rig off Iroquois III that had just won the RBR with the Ellison brothers. Lady Helmsman the 1966 "C" Class winner was in the shop. The Mk 1 Iroquois was amazing but had no payload capacity so the Mk 2 featured fatter more buoyant hulls, shorter, masthead rig and was a toned down, politically correct version. Bet you didn't win any beauty pageants with that windmill rig - brave move and indicative of the less than electrifying sailing performance of the Mk 2. There was nothing in the Mk 1 when we raced her, little floor inspection panels, cushions, fenders - everything came out. Polished Helmsman Graphspeed on the bottom, tiny Seagull outboard and then she would come to life - lightweight always wins.

I don't see any kick up stern sections (ebb & flow directional platform) on that 50' harryproa, spotted the kick up rudder heads but no foils. My boat weighs around 3,100 pounds in that configuration.

Tiny board on Bullfrog, compared, only 4' 6" x 24" x 2 1/2" sticking out the bottom of the boat - works great, just a different approach. Was it lifted any at the time, exposing the rudder to the first strike? On the original drawings I have there was really no provision for preserving the case/board trailing edge in the event of a collision.

Really appreciate your thoughts on the subject, might be arguing generalization vs specifics. Wanna talk about beam design and construction. I have some thoughts there that hark back to the Iroquois too.

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"Fitted out my Mk 2" was a bit of an exaggeration.  Girlfriend and I had 6 months to fit windows, bunk and galley (both a couple of  bulkheads and a sheet of ply across the hull), build the rudders and boards, fit out the mast, build and install the A frame,  make the sails and leave the Uk or pay VAT.   Also worked as a skipper for Sail Craft to pay for it.  Lived on board net to the coal yard in Brightlingsea.  Fun times.  However, with nothing inside, it got along nicely.  

Mike Ellison was/is(?) amazing.  Probably did more experimentation for less money than anyone else.  We were tied up behind them prior to the Round Britain.  25' cat with Bruce foils and a whale tail auxillary, which pumped out copious amounts of water.  Great guys. 

The 50' harryproa in the picture was 4,400 lightship, including rig.  The rudders and board functions are combined in oversize rudders mounted at 25% and 75% of the length, on the inside of the hull (see www.harryproa.com).  They kick up in both directions, can be lifted and still steer and there are no holes below the waterline.  Not pretty, not the fastest solution (in that format), but easily the safest which, for me, is the key consideration for a cruiser.    Those were 10 years ago.  The latest ones do all the above, and are better looking.  

Happy to talk beams.  If weight is important, you can't beat carbon.  Carbon's stiffness/toughness/brittleness needs to be seen in the context of tennis racquets, golf clubs, fishing rods, F1 cars and the big tri beams. ie, it is how you use it that determines the structure's behaviour, not the material itself.  

We are starting to use the beams for more than just keeping the hulls in place and support the bridge deck.  Bending (as opposed to curving) the beams where they enter the hulls allows the vertical part to support the mast.  The result is lower hulls and  a lot less weight,  reinforcing and cost (on the 24m/80' cargo/ferry http://harryproa.com/?p=2561 the lee hull is now 2/3 the weight with half the windage ) and the lee hull interior is even more spacious.    Downside is they are more work to build than straight beams, but using carbon tow (the safest way to build double curvature structures), they are no harder to build than the rest of the boat. 

Beer,

The windmill rig was a great idea, but not very well implemented, as I was skint and impatient.  Best speed we got was 6 knots directly into 20 knots of breeze.  At this speed, the windmill was turning at 110 rpm and had been through 3 critical frequencies, each one a surprise and causing vibration.   Top speed was 180 rpm, which (from memory) would have given 15 knots directly into the wind.  It was a fun project: Learnt how to use machine tools, enough engineering, naval architecture and aero/hydro dynamics to get by, how to succeed at getting sponsorship and met lots of interesting people.  

I built it just after the '79 oil scare when green shipping was all the rage.  I got involved with green shipping again when we tried to introduce Outleader Kites and again recently with the cargo/ferry.  Despite pollution/climate change/rising sea levels and the millions of dollars spent talking about it,  the oil burning ships are still operating.  I am not completely sure why this is, but it indicates to me that a new approach is required.  Stay tuned.  

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Yeah, did I hear right that bunker fuel burning ships cause more pollution than the two plus billion automobiles on earth and the there’s those farting cows!

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For Rasputin22

Here are the pics of Transient 

Sorry it took so long!

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Transient was built from a constant camber mold that my friend Lew and I built for a 32' Newick designed sailing pickup trimaran named Edith Muma. Joe built Transient in the same hovel of a shop (at Dick's house on the Vineyard) that we built the pickup in. Transient went on to win it's class in the Two-Star (with Rasputin onboard). Edith Muma died on the beach in Guyana. I delivered it there from the Vineyard via Bermuda, which was a mission because it was basically an open boat.. It was built to bring by-catch from fishing boats to shore to feed hungry people, which was a good idea,  but it fell victim to an ignorant do-gooder who left it full of water to die on the beach. At least Transient lives on.

 

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Still holds the record for the fastest 35 footer  E-W Atlantic Singlehanded crossing with Brian Thompson in 1992.

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Thanks for the photos boardhead. Pretty amazing that the Fish Truck spawned such a hot little tri that was so successful for so long. What was amazing about her is that she could really make good time on the rest of the fleet in light to moderate conditions but then could still keep up a good pace when the going got tougher. Not sure what it was about her that made that possible. 

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Built strong and pretty light, the main hull has a higher  prismatic than many of her predecessors so she does not pitch as much, relatively beamy overall at 35’ x 27’ with decent volume amas out there set well foreword makes her very powerful for her size with excellent diagonal stability so she can be driven hard upwind and down.

There were some shortcomings where the aft beam was discontinued around the companionway that were addressed when Tim modified the deck into a smooth blister that blends into a structural ring frame in that area.

Transient sports a big, strong daggerboard very robustly incorporated into the foreword beam/mast step structure, the cassette rudder assembly was built to last, we filled the tubular stainless shaft with 6061T6 bar some years ago so all in all a really tough little bugger that has proven very dependable.

With a 51’ carbon rig she is quicker than the Transient that served you and Joe so well on your Atlantic tour. Has a much more spacious interior and the torsional rigidity picked up when the wing berths were added.

 A special boat.

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4 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Transient was built from a constant camber mold that my friend Lew and I built for a 32' Newick designed sailing pickup trimaran named Edith Muma. Joe built Transient in the same hovel of a shop (at Dick's house on the Vineyard) that we built the pickup in. Transient went on to win it's class in the Two-Star (with Rasputin onboard). Edith Muma died on the beach in Guyana. I delivered it there from the Vineyard via Bermuda, which was a mission because it was basically an open boat.. It was built to bring by-catch from fishing boats to shore to feed hungry people, which was a good idea,  but it fell victim to an ignorant do-gooder who left it full of water to die on the beach. At least Transient lives on.

 

You sure got around

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Thanks again Keith and Tim for letting me come over and check out the machines. 

The interior on Transient is still pretty tight even after all the mods and wing berths.

That St. Francis is no slouch either!!

Cool story Russell. Not much dust under your feet!

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14 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

DA14DBF9-3D51-4DBF-BFCF-0554DA227977.jpeg

Nice to see the old girl is still alive and well. Hard to believe I only had her for a bit over two years: launched spring of '84, sold to Rich Wilson fall of '86. She had a used aluminium mast of 42' from the original Newick 38, Native. Sold my Martin D28 guitar to pay for the mast. These wood/epoxy boats can last a long time if they're given reasonable care. 

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

 

The interior on Transient is still pretty tight even after all the mods and wing berths.

 

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Real men don't need no stinkin' wing berths!

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Ha! You’re right!!

They’re for his daughter and her gear when they cruise...

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Building and racing multihulls 

might be the easy part, same goes for for a whole bunch of other solitary pass times.

Involvining your wife and kids without trashing you marriage and estranging what ought to be the most important thing in your life - that’s the challenge.

Tims daughters are 18 and 21 and been sailing with him on Transient since they were babies. They are both excited about sailing up to their summer home in Goose Cove on Arcadia in May, as they have both done several times.

Tough lot, the Ross’s, Finnish and Scottish extract they cross country skied with the girls in sleds behind them in the arctic circle, I met Tim and Deb in Hamilton, Bermuda after Transient finished the 1996 Newport-Bermuda, Tim won the Moxie Trophy in NEMA that year in recognition of his continuing to a 74 hour elapsed finish after he fell from the collapsed sprit and was dragged under the bow, tethered, luckily he had an Olympic judo monster in his crew who dragged him aboard.

Everything cut out and replaced in the deck/wing/mainsheet beam mod was weighed, there was no net weight gain and the boat is a hell of a lot stronger and torsionally rigid.

The scruffy deck paint finish is contrived - Tim is probably the most hair shirt individual I have ever met.

He sought and bought Transient after he encountered Skateaway off Montauk in May 1992 aboard his Rogers 40 one tonner that he raced competitively with a huge crew. We absolutely blew him away, intrigued he sought a trimaran and to this day considers himself lucky he found Transient. Together we made her stronger and faster so Thanks, Joe, for building her, it has been a delight to enjoy being around that boat and current owners for 27 years.

I hope you were joking rasp!

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6 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Building and racing multihulls 

might be the easy part, same goes for for a whole bunch of other solitary pass times.

Involvining your wife and kids without trashing you marriage and estranging what ought to be the most important thing in your life - that’s the challenge.

Tims daughters are 18 and 21 and been sailing with him on Transient since they were babies. They are both excited about sailing up to their summer home in Goose Cove on Arcadia in May, as they have both done several times.

Tough lot, the Ross’s, Finnish and Scottish extract they cross country skied with the girls in sleds behind them in the arctic circle, I met Tim and Deb in Hamilton, Bermuda after Transient finished the 1996 Newport-Bermuda, Tim won the Moxie Trophy in NEMA that year in recognition of his continuing to a 74 hour elapsed finish after he fell from the collapsed sprit and was dragged under the bow, tethered, luckily he had an Olympic judo monster in his crew who dragged him aboard.

Everything cut out and replaced in the deck/wing/mainsheet beam mod was weighed, there was no net weight gain and the boat is a hell of a lot stronger and torsionally rigid.

The scruffy deck paint finish is contrived - Tim is probably the most hair shirt individual I have ever met.

He sought and bought Transient after he encountered Skateaway off Montauk in May 1992 aboard his Rogers 40 one tonner that he raced competitively with a huge crew. We absolutely blew him away, intrigued he sought a trimaran and to this day considers himself lucky he found Transient. Together we made her stronger and faster so Thanks, Joe, for building her, it has been a delight to enjoy being around that boat and current owners for 27 years.

I hope you were joking rasp!

I spent a few nights in the tiny berth forward of the main beam. So, was only half joking...

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Oh, and the galley is palacial!

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36 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Table port, berth starboard. What a complex setup it was!

I spent a few hours sleeping on the table on the delivery trip after getting seriously nailed by a rogue wave. 

    Hot bunking on that trip was not as bad as I originally thought. For the first week, we would each roll up our own personal sleeping bag and stow before taking the helm. Then you watched your buddy unroll his cold bag and have to warm it up and lose at least a half hour of already limited sleep. About a week into the trip, someone said to hell with it and climbed in the still warm sleeping bag. Our olfactory nerves had long since gone into hibernation by then though. After another week, we switched to the still somewhat fresh bag.

    We ran out of propane on the race and I started getting in the bunk/sleeping bag with a cold can of pork and beans to at least soften the lard and be somewhat edible. Three on and three off for three weeks gets old.

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And Russell is saying to himself, “Damn! I wish I had those luxury accommodations on Edith!!”

Great story, thanks for sharing!

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