Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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It seems like there is a wild variance in our hopes/expectations!

So let us see who will hazard a guess ! ?

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Interesting to see Jack Griffin has voted for 3 - that is no new challengers. He was at the Prada cup launch 

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Yes I wonder what he knows that we don't?

Maybe Cor wont give any lenience at all?

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It's 5 Challengers + Defender now if you believe ETNZ Managing Director Kevin Shoebridge. I'm growing more and more convinced one of those is Tienpont's Dutch Team.

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@JackGriffin I am very interested.  Is your reasoning in your Blog?

Is it wild informed speculation?

Give us a hint? please!

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TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

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14 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

All Challengers per Protocol have to race the ACWS & Prada Cup!

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I went with the 24% of responders that opted for three new challengers for a total of six.

Of course challenges fall over for the strangest reasons.

Still, the two accepted last-minute challengers passed the smell test with ETNZ and the Squadron.  And these were guys who committed to pitch in an extra million for the privilege of coming late to the party.

Not hard to imagine at least one more late-comer admitted.  Dutch and Chinese are high on my list.

Could be the problem in the Viaduct Basin will be finding bases for syndicates, not syndicates for bases!

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3 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

 

Still, the two accepted last-minute challengers passed the smell test

 

Please, the guy reeks of hair cream just from the picture - siding with Jack on this one

 

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TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

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12 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Please, the guy reeks of hair cream just from the picture - siding with Jack on this one

Well,  the former house painter in Perth and Raul Gardini from Venice didn't exactly  inspire confidence either.  Observations that were subsequently borne out in both cases.  Hey, AC history displays a rich vein of challenger financial rascals.

None of that has apparently given pause to the two Iains -  Iain Percy from Britain and Iain Murray - from Australia from displaying intense interest in the King's Shilling according to recent posts here on SA from the Star Sailor's League in Nassau  

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9 hours ago, Kiwing said:

TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

The Prada Cup is not mentioned in the protocol, however the official site qualifies it of CSS, so it will dertermine the final challenger.

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6 challengers fighting for the Prada cup and who will challenge for the cup! We are edging towards 6 !

Lots can happen between now and the Prada cup !

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Just now, Kiwing said:

6 challengers fighting for the Prada cup and who will challenge for the cup! We are edging towards 6 !

Lots can happen between now and the Prada cup !

Where do you get the 6th? Thus far we have only 5.

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I asked how many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

Near 30% are saying 6.  Sorry you will have to ask them.  But I have to say I never would have counted Malta, or even thought of it!! and I guess they might not make it?

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15 hours ago, Kiwing said:

I asked how many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

Near 30% are saying 6.  Sorry you will have to ask them.  But I have to say I never would have counted Malta, or even thought of it!! and I guess they might not make it?

We will see! I'd say getting a 6th Challenger or even a 7th looks more complicated so my vote was for 5.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

We will see! I'd say getting a 6th Challenger or even a 7th looks more complicated so my vote was for 5.

Hey thank you for voting.  A mild distraction from the personal battles.

I have to say I am surprised that so many think there will be so many challengers.  I have a hopeful 5 (being a NZer) and expect there to be 4 really.

I guess it comes back to "competitive/serious" and learners. 3-4 serious and 1-2 learners.  But one thing is for sure in my mind Yachting in general will benefit.  My friends son (12 years old) has just put an Etchell internal halyard with self locking in his starling and jumped a few places in the fleet - trickle down!

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23 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Hey thank you for voting.  A mild distraction from the personal battles.

I have to say I am surprised that so many think there will be so many challengers.  I have a hopeful 5 (being a NZer) and expect there to be 4 really.

I guess it comes back to "competitive/serious" and learners. 3-4 serious and 1-2 learners.  But one thing is for sure in my mind Yachting in general will benefit.  My friends son (12 years old) has just put an Etchell internal halyard with self locking in his starling and jumped a few places in the fleet - trickle down!

My pleasure :)

I think it comes more down to "space". Hobson Wharf is Full with these 5 Challengers I think.

We have now Luna Rossa, American Magic, INEOS, Malta Altus and that one accepted but unconfirmed Challenger.

I just read another Article where it says it's Canfield and USA21. It's Sunday in America so to speak. I'm expecting an Annoucement by them in the upcoming week one way or the other.

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6 hours ago, Kiwing said:

has just put an Etchell internal halyard with self locking in his starling and jumped a few places in the fleet - trickle down!

Is it adjustable? AFAIK adjustable halyards are not legal in Starlings? May be its changed since I sailed them some 40 years ago.

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2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Is it adjustable? AFAIK adjustable halyards are not legal in Starlings? May be its changed since I sailed them some 40 years ago.

Thread deviation alert.! So we have 4 confirmed challenges. Who is the 5th unconfirmed?

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Carbonfibre rudders and centre boards, adjustable halyards, all the wizzkid stuff! The external halyard is adjustable too. crank it on to bow your mast, etc  Got to move with the times!!!

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3 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Carbonfibre rudders and centre boards, adjustable halyards, all the wizzkid stuff! The external halyard is adjustable too. crank it on to bow your mast, etc  Got to move with the times!!!

Wow....!!....Not surprised there's been some changes over the years. These days I'm way to big for a Starling, but I am looking forward to having a crack in my Brothers 3.7 this summer.

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We were close to 50% for 2 new making 5 and 20% 3 new making 6.

Now we are dropping towards 40% for 2 making 5 and rising to 30% for 3 making 6!

Interesting eh!

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@terrafirma I know no more than you except the tendency is heading toward 3 new challengers.

1) Malta, 2) ??? 3) ???

There is a twitter poll, closed now I think, which is testing the water but it is all guesses!

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15 hours ago, Kiwing said:

@Tornado-Cat what do you mean "not vetted"?

I mean that I answered your poll considering the nomber of teams that would really compete, not those accepted. As you know, paying the entry fees and competing are two different things. As Jack Griffin points in his last letter:

"Two of Oracle's Challengers of Record dropped out: Mascalzone Latino for the the 2013 AC and Hamilton Island Yacht Club for 2017. Other challengers also failed to raise the money they needed. At the first AC World Series regatta, in Cascais in 2011, seven challengers raced the then-brand-new AC45's, to prepare for building an AC72. None of these teams made it to San Francisco with an AC72: Greencom (ESP), Aleph (FRA), Energy Team (FRA), Team Korea and China Team. Emirates Team New Zealand and Artemis Racing were the only challengers from Cascais to build an AC72. Luna Rossa joined the circuit after the Plymouth ACWS, and bought their design from Emirates Team New Zealand."
 

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@Kiwing,

Mate, it's still about the Money. I've just received the CupExperience Newsletter and Jack Griffin makes a great Point.

In the Run-Up to AC 34 the ACWS in Cascais in 2011 had 10 Teams challging, 7 of those were unable to built an AC 72 back then because of Financial Troubles.

Aleph, EnergyTeam, GreenCom, Team Korea and Team China all withdrew alongside Mascalzone Latino.

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16 hours ago, Kiwing said:

@Tornado-Cat what do you mean "not vetted"?

I also answered based on how many new challengers I guessed would actually race in the ACWS.

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I actually asked who would race the Prada Cup.

So there is still time for entry and drop out.  It is a big hurdle to cart those boats around the place.  I'm not even sure if there will be concessions but what counts for this poll is who will race the Prada cup!  Might only be two!!!!! which I did not think of !!

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Anything is possible what could knock a team out before the Prada Cup.
Financial problems?
Boat failure?
Risk of life?
Dare I say the court drama?
Could go on.

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Inevitably the Fickle Finger of Fate may take down some unfortunates but I'd argue that the original three challengers look pretty solid when it comes to folks, funds and fabrication.  And as others have noted, the Johnnie-com-lately hopefuls will be loathe to slink away after kicking in around $4mil in entry fees, late fees, etc. On that front we should get better indications before year's end. 

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22 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Inevitably the Fickle Finger of Fate may take down some unfortunates but I'd argue that the original three challengers look pretty solid when it comes to folks, funds and fabrication.  And as others have noted, the Johnnie-com-lately hopefuls will be loathe to slink away after kicking in around $4mil in entry fees, late fees, etc. On that front we should get better indications before year's end. 

The late comers don't pay anything until 10 days after their challenge is accepted, the other $3mil is due on 31 December. Putting conditions on their entry is a way of delaying acceptance and keeping their options open a little longer. Delaying acceptance until 21 December means they keep them open for as long as possible (without change to the protocol, which seems unlikely at this stage).

The secrecy of the challengers is a sign that they're most likely serious, even if uncertain.

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10 hours ago, NZL4EVER said:

Anything is possible what could knock a team out before the Prada Cup.
Financial problems?
Boat failure?
Risk of life?
Dare I say the court drama?
Could go on.

I marked the 2 most likely Possibilities which could knock a Team out. As we have seen in 2013 Artemis Design was a complete failure. Yes, you can purchase a Basic Design from ETNZ. That being said: You still have to built the boat, no? There ain't many good boatbuilders left.

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Eh, I will stick with 5 total in ACWS going to Prada Cup.  

Not that I have millions to toss around but $4m in foregone fees from an abandoned challenge is less daunting  than the other $60m-$200m or whatever the rest of the cycle costs a team.  

Huh, court challenges. Wonder if anyone would litigate over Protocol changes for the new entrants?

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22 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Eh, I will stick with 5 total in ACWS going to Prada Cup.  

Not that I have millions to toss around but $4m in foregone fees from an abandoned challenge is less daunting  than the other $60m-$200m or whatever the rest of the cycle costs a team.  

Huh, court challenges. Wonder if anyone would litigate over Protocol changes for the new entrants?

I actually think you will find that if the Defender and COR agree the changes then it is a done deal, a court challenge would just be a waste of money. At least that is what I understand from those who know

SS

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I think that's about it with the "Challengers". At this Point I'd be shocked if a 6th Challenger emerges unless the RNZYS is willing to accept a "Fringe Challenge".

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I seriously doubt there will be a 6th challenger, but with the acceptance of Malta, there is a chance.

Malta will not make it to any regatta.

4 challengers at the Prada Cup.

Stars & Stripes may be able to get a 2nd boat.

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5 minutes ago, Chainlocker said:

I seriously doubt there will be a 6th challenger, but with the acceptance of Malta, there is a chance.

Malta will not make it to any regatta.

4 challengers at the Prada Cup.

Stars & Stripes may be able to get a 2nd boat.

Artemis Racing will win the Americas Cup...oh wait

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6 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Artemis Racing will win the Americas Cup...oh wait

LOL, why do you bring Artemis again now? @Chainlocker is right. Malta doesn't seem really credible to me. Iain, if he is indeed the Skipper will be on his own. Doubtful that Nathan Outteridge giving up SailGP with Japan to do this AC all over again with a Team that has no chance of succeeding.

Meanwhile partisan NZ Journalist Hack Gladwell seems to me blowing up smoke again like he always does with all these supposed Protocol Amendments incl. granting Challengers a forfait for the 1st ACWS Event in Cagliari 2019. If the Malta Altus Challenge is the lone Team who is not going to make it to Cagliari Luna Rossa/CoR ain't letting the Protocol being changed for just one single Team. It'll be either a) Built the Boat in time for Cagliari 2019 or b) Bust and go home for them.

Canfield/Buckley already indicated that they will be ready to race in Oct. 2019.

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

LOL, why do you bring Artemis again now? @Chainlocker is right. Malta doesn't seem really credible to me. Iain, if he is indeed the Skipper will be on his own. Doubtful that Nathan Outteridge giving up SailGP with Japan to do this AC all over again with a Team that has no chance of succeeding.

Meanwhile partisan NZ Journalist Hack Gladwell seems to me blowing up smoke again like he always does with all these supposed Protocol Amendments incl. granting Challengers a forfait for the 1st ACWS Event in Cagliari 2019. If the Malta Altus Challenge is the lone Team who is not going to make it to Cagliari Luna Rossa/CoR ain't letting the Protocol being changed for just one single Team. It'll be either a) Built the Boat in time for Cagliari 2019 or b) Bust and go home for them.

Canfield/Buckley already indicated that they will be ready to race in Oct. 2019.

We have seen or heard nothing from the "Japanese SailGP team" other than the press release naming the team. Since then, we have had 2 new challengers, which the Malta team seemed very much last minute, and there are rumblings of Percy being involved. Its entirely possible Outteridge may opt to do the AC instead of SailGP. Unlikely? Maybe, but entirely possible.

It would seem more logical that Outteridge would want to do the AC again, if he could, especially if Percy and Jensen are involved rather than doing a regatta that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If Outteridge misses out on this cycle, he could very well miss out on any further AC opportunities in the future if the new teams are indeed looking to the future. 

Question: Why would the protocol need to be changed for Malta? Their entry is already unconditional, meaning the ACWS arrangements have been made and accepted by both parties. They will either be there and carry on, or not. It is the calendar we are waiting on, not protocol changes. 

The only protocol changes that need to be made, are for teams who are still conditional, which Malta is not.

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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I actually think you will find that if the Defender and COR agree the changes then it is a done deal, a court challenge would just be a waste of money. At least that is what I understand from those who know

SS

I think that is a fallacy arising from too much focus on the DoG. The protocol is a contract between defender and challengers.

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26 minutes ago, mfluder said:

We have seen or heard nothing from the "Japanese SailGP team" other than the press release naming the team. Since then, we have had 2 new challengers, which the Malta team seemed very much last minute, and there are rumblings of Percy being involved. Its entirely possible Outteridge may opt to do the AC instead of SailGP. Unlikely? Maybe, but entirely possible.

It would seem more logical that Outteridge would want to do the AC again, if he could, especially if Percy and Jensen are involved rather than doing a regatta that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If Outteridge misses out on this cycle, he could very well miss out on any further AC opportunities in the future if the new teams are indeed looking to the future.

I see it differently. Why on earth would Outeridge be willing to race against Percy or his best buddy Iain Jensen in the AC? Outteridge & Jensen are best buddies. They would never race against each other in the AC. I also doubt Jensen would want to breach his contract with Ineos to be with Nathan racing for the Malta Challenge.

One thing I could see is Jensen coaxing Nathan into Ineos. Ben is 44 years old when Auckland 2021 rolls around. I know Ineos already has a Back-Up Helmsman in Leigh McMillan but he has never diven these kind of new animals and is primarily the Helmsman for the Ineos Rebels Programme. Handing the steering Keys to Nathan Ben would freed up to do Tactics with Scott being the Strategist and Jensen trimming the Main. That could work out well. The Combo of Spithill/Ainslie/Slingsby clobbered Barker/Davies in 2013. Ben is much better of doing Tactics than Steering with these 75-footers I think.

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They're sailing boats in a race not going into battle.  Nathan and Iain have raced each other in multiple events and classes (ie. As and Moths).  No different to their Kiwi 49er mates racing on different Volvo boats.  When it is your job you follow the pay check.  There is no way the SailGP is paying a fraction of the wages or offers any of the job security of even an America's Cup B Team.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I see it differently. Why on earth would Outeridge be willing to race against Percy or his best buddy Iain Jensen in the AC? Outteridge & Jensen are best buddies. They would never race against each other in the AC. I also doubt Jensen would want to breach his contract with Ineos to be with Nathan racing for the Malta Challenge.

One thing I could see is Jensen coaxing Nathan into Ineos. Ben is 44 years old when Auckland 2021 rolls around. I know Ineos already has a Back-Up Helmsman in Leigh McMillan but he has never diven these kind of new animals and is primarily the Helmsman for the Ineos Rebels Programme. Handing the steering Keys to Nathan Ben would freed up to do Tactics with Scott being the Strategist and Jensen trimming the Main. That could work out well. The Combo of Spithill/Ainslie/Slingsby clobbered Barker/Davies in 2013. Ben is much better of doing Tactics than Steering with these 75-footers I think.

Because thats what they get paid to do. Its not like you can't be "best buddies" just because you're racing against each other.

Ben, Dean Barker and Jimmy Spithill will all be around the same age when 2021 rolls around. Can't see Ben giving up the helm of a British boat to an Aussie.

At the start of the AC in 2013, Davies and Barker were completely dominant. Even Ken Read said it was "The Ray Davies show". Moral of the story...a faster boat will always make a tactician look good.

 

 

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I believe these boats require faster reaction times that twenty somethings have and thirty somethings don't.

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

I believe these boats require faster reaction times that twenty somethings have and thirty somethings don't.

There are goal keepers and F1 drivers who keep going into their forties, pretty sure you can still sail a boat at 40 even one doing close to 50 knots.

Kimi Räikkönen was 3rd in F1 this year at 39 years old.

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It's about muscle memory.  If you are only fine tuning the reactions it true 40s can do it.

If you are learning something completely new the younger you are the better.  Problem for teens is their decision making is not quite there, so 25 is probably perfect.

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

I believe these boats require faster reaction times that twenty somethings have and thirty somethings don't.

For the record, Glenn Ashby will be 44 by the time the AC rolls around. That makes him 41 now and still winning A-Cat World Championships.

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Glenn Ashby is amazing.  Well Done Glenn!

He just caught foiling in time in the As, I think.

Fine tuning - he will continue to be able to do it until something out of left field comes along.

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6 is quickly catching up to 5 !!

Until they start dropping out, then it will decline again ???

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I would think if you were going to drop out, you would've done it by now while your entry was still conditional and before the public announcement was made. Can't see any challengers dropping out now. They'd surely be too far into the planning stage to drop out.

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9 minutes ago, mfluder said:

I would think if you were going to drop out, you would've done it by now while your entry was still conditional and before the public announcement was made. Can't see any challengers dropping out now. They'd surely be too far into the planning stage to drop out.

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club just to name a few. Or maybe we get a Joint China/Japan Challenge?

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

Thats a change. A few weeks ago, you said 3 was the best they'd get.

Be honest, no one thought Malta would challenge, yet here they are, so I think we just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. I'm picking at least one more, but if not, 5 works just fine. 

Wonder if we'll see Russell and/ or Larry's names come up.

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10 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Thats a change. A few weeks ago, you said 3 was the best they'd get.

Be honest, no one thought Malta would challenge, yet here they are, so I think we just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. I'm picking at least one more, but if not, 5 works just fine. 

Wonder if we'll see Russell and/ or Larry's names come up.

I still think Malta might drop out before the Prada Cup if the money dries up. The Malta Challenge is really a special case for me. At least Stars & Stripes Team USA worked on their Challenge since ETNZ won the Cup. I don't see that sort of effort from Malta Altus.

Didn't Kevin Shoebridge say that he'd like to wrap up the vetting process by Christmas? Maybe you're right and we'll get one more. Since the close of the Late Entry Deadline the RNZYS managed to unveil 1 Challenge per week. Christmas Present next week then?

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

I would think if you were going to drop out, you would've done it by now while your entry was still conditional and before the public announcement was made. Can't see any challengers dropping out now. They'd surely be too far into the planning stage to drop out.

I didn't mean drop out under your control, I meant, drop out due to not getting money promised, bad break of equipment, loss of personal etc., beyond your control.  We have seen a few over the years.

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23 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

I didn't mean drop out under your control, I meant, drop out due to not getting money promised, bad break of equipment, loss of personal etc., beyond your control.  We have seen a few over the years.

Agreed, you have obviously more chances to be right than clarkey's fantasies.

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Is there any financial/political gain for ETNZ (Auckland Council, funding) to be had from artificially propping up the "expected numbers"?

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@Basiliscus no new challengers make it to the Prada Cup!  That makes 3 in the Prada Cup!

Normally I would think very deeply about disagreeing with you.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Agreed, you have obviously more chances to be right than clarkey's fantasies.

You really are obsessed with Me. I'm flattered, but I hope you understand, I'm just not that into you:)

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club just to name a few. Or maybe we get a Joint China/Japan Challenge?

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

Not much activity on the Italian Columbus 21 front.

As I've previously said,  not a hope in hell of joint Japan/China effort. Asian neighbours but vast cultural differences.  Nothing in common when it comes to sailing. Of the two China with Craig Monk may still emerge as a challenger.

I'd say Stars & Stripes should be a goer.  They've been at it for a year.  Good principals, good club, strong match race skills and now Dirty Dennis has given them the nod. If they do a deal for access to his sponsor contacts and supporter donors it should be a big boost. Of course there will be a cost.

I've written off Norway.  Hopes for the Dutch and Tienpoint are fading

Of course the big unknown here is the global economy. Trump is pushing us into uncharted waters and there is nothing like a threatening recession to dry up funding sources.

Edited by KiwiJoker
correction!

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9 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Glenn Ashby is amazing.  Well Done Glenn!

He just caught foiling in time in the As, I think.

Fine tuning - he will continue to be able to do it until something out of left field comes along.

AMAC and Goughie were on the podium in the early foiling Moth worlds, when everything was new and left field, at about 53 and 45 years of age. There are plenty of older skiffies and cat sailors. Windsurfer Thierry Bielak was 46 when he became the first person to break 45 knots under sail, and he did 49.94 knots over a 500m course at the age of 59. Plenty of middle-aged windsurfers and kiters sail in very close proximity to crowds of other boards at closing speeds of 70+ knots. AC sailors who only have to deal with a couple of other fast boats with pro crews would probably have an easier job in many ways. 

 

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9 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Not much activity on the Italian Columbus 21 front.

As I've previously said,  not a hope in hell of joint Japan/China effort. Asian neighbours but vast cultural differences.  Nothing in common when it comes to sailing. Of the two China with Craig Monk may still emerge as a challenger.

I'd say Stars & Stripes should be a goer.  They've been at it for a year.  Good principals, good club, strong match race skills and now Dirty Dennis has given them the nod. If they do a deal for access to his sponsor contacts and supporter donors it should be a big boost. Of course there will be a cost.

I've written off Norway.  Hopes for the Dutch and Tienpoint are fading

Of course the big unknown here is the global economy. Trump is pushing us into uncharted waters and there is nothing like a threatening recession to dry up funding sources.

TBH I'm surprised that no Chinese Challenge has emerged given that they won the Volvo this year and had great support & enthusiasm during the Hong Kong & Guangzhou Stopovers. You would have thought that they could translate those kind of support into an AC Challenge. I think the money would be there but these AC 75's are different animals and might be too complex to them for now.

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Did I jump too soon on Columbus 2021?

Could someone please so kind and translate this Article in English

https://www.lastampa.it/2018/12/13/societa/americas-cup-a-imperia-il-conto-alla-rovescia-in-scadenza-hcE7jzhwUUW8EHBWA9AifP/pagina.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I'm not that very good at Italian but it looks like Columbus 2021 lodged in a "Conditional Entry" with the RNZYS with the condition to host an ACWS Event in Italy next year.

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Sounds like either the Columbus 2021 people or the author or Google translate or all are focusing on paying about $5M soon. I would not throw $5M out of bed, but if I were expecting enough to run a campaign to be in hand in time to finish a boat, train a team, compete,  $5M would be 5% or less of that?  Layaway model?

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Did I jump too soon on Columbus 2021?

Could someone please so kind and translate this Article in English

https://www.lastampa.it/2018/12/13/societa/americas-cup-a-imperia-il-conto-alla-rovescia-in-scadenza-hcE7jzhwUUW8EHBWA9AifP/pagina.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I'm not that very good at Italian but it looks like Columbus 2021 lodged in a "Conditional Entry" with the RNZYS with the condition to host an ACWS Event in Italy next year.

Here's the key bit - a literal Google Chrome translation of the original Italian. Seems to me like an awful lot of coulda-woulda-shoulda all in a very tight time frame.  

"Imperia, or rather the Yacht Club of Imperia, is a candidate to become one of the challengers of the America's Cup 2021. He presented his request for registration to the Royal Yacht Squadron of Auckland, the yacht club of the defender, who welcomed it . Now, because it's perfect, you need the money. How many? Imperia has tried to condition its registration to a delay in payment of the fees, which has been rejected by kiwis. Therefore, he must pour. How much?

"Within 10 days from the date of acceptance of the application, 1 million dollars of the registration fee of June (First Payment) must be paid, plus the first installment of 275 thousand dollars of the million foreseen for the next enrollment tranche by 30 November ( the Second Payment can be deferred, with an increase of 10% of the total). This is the first major payment and the countdown is expiring: there are only a few days left. Without breath, because by December 31 must be paid also the million established for those who register late (Late Entry Fee): total, 2 million 275 thousand euros. That's not all, because a further million dollars as a Performance Bond should also be paid to ensure participation in the World Series. Total by December 31st: 3 million 275 thousand USD. Will Imperia do it? "Nothing is closed yet", says Savini."

Doesn't sound like anything you'd want to bet on but we have to remember this the Italian equivalent of the NZ Herald offering its myopic take on things!

 

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"…Imperia has tried to condition its registration to a delay in payment of the fees"

So they were hoping to delay, probably to give them more time to raise the capital (or whatever). Given that their conditions have been rejected, their entry is now effectively unconditional. Are they now in limbo? Or has their entry been accepted (assuming vetting has occurred) and the countdown has started on the 10 days to pay USD1 million or withdraw.

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17 hours ago, Curious said:

AMAC and Goughie were on the podium in the early foiling Moth worlds, when everything was new and left field, at about 53 and 45 years of age.

Sure, but I think the basic premise is correct: the older you get, the harder it is to learn new skills. Both those guys were very, very good sailors before they started foiling. They do show that if you already have the skills, they can be applied to a new environment where a same–aged competitor without those skills may never be able to acquire them, or at least really struggle.

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It also says somewhere that contacts with the original Columbus 2021 group have been severed, so ATM it’s just the Imperia Yacht Club ...

 

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The exceptions proves the rule.

OK I surrender! These guys are examples of fit "between the ears" people it just gets harder and harder with every year.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:18 AM, dogwatch said:

I think that is a fallacy arising from too much focus on the DoG. The protocol is a contract between defender and challengers.

The Protocol is a contract between the defender and the Challenger of Record, NOT the "challengers". At least that is what I have been informed by those who know.

The DoG has been added to by RNZYS with the inclusion of conditions including number of members of challenger club, length of time that club has been in existence and that it is broadly speaking funded by members "pro-rata". I wonder who or what they were trying to exclude with those additions.

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:46 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club just to name a few. Or maybe we get a Joint China/Japan Challenge?

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

Wide of the mark in many ways. QIYC were the Chinese "club of challenge" the last time round. Founded 5 days before the challenge was made, had no members, no boats and never run a race never mind a regatta - not many other ways they could not have been legitimate but ACM (spelled Ernesto) wanted a China entry. What they actually got was a French entry in "China Team by Le Defi".

The subsequent successful court action by Larry Ellison against CNEV's naming as CoR showed QIYC should never have been accepted by Yacht Club Du Geneve as CNEV was actually MORE DoG compliant than QIYC.

QIYC wasn't the only Chinese club which entered in that cycle but the other club felt that although they had the seed money for entry, bond and so on could not be sure of sufficient sponsorship to do their challenge and more important The Cup justice so withdrew at 1545 (Swiss time) on the final day for entries. That club WAS 100% DoG compliant.

I would be surprised if RNZYS accepted a challenge from a club that shouldn't have been there before but who knows.

As far a Craig Monk is concerned, not taking anything away from him but he is a grinder and has little experience at raising funds or managing a team, certainly at the level of an America's Cup campaign but never say never.....

Comments above about Dongfeng winning the Volvo Ocean Race and then moving onto the America's Cup are perhaps wishful thinking. Dongfeng Automotive achieved their goal both as a sailing team and corporately with their win into The Hague and the is no reason I can see that they would wish to jump classes and enter the America's Cup - it's a different animal altogether.

RHKYC is in Hong Kong (surprisingly) but although it is a Chinese SAR, the sailing scene there is quite separate from that in China.

There are however many more sailing clubs in China apart from QIYC and Ningbo and more active to boot. (see front page)

Little point in speculating however, whichever clubs & nations are in the mix and process of acceptance or otherwise will soon become clear. Then the hard work begins. 

I wonder what we will talk about then :-)

SS

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What would stop an accepted challenger wanting to be the Dark horse asking RNZYS not to reveal and not announcing until the 31st March?

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2 hours ago, Kiwing said:

What would stop an accepted challenger wanting to be the Dark horse asking RNZYS not to reveal and not announcing until the 31st March?

That would be malpractice I think mate! They have to announce mainly because of Auckland City Council needs to know soon "How many Bases they need to built"!

8 Notices of Challenge were received at the Deadline for Late Entries on November 30th. It is widely to be believed that these are:

2 x from Italy (We know now that 1 was the Malta Altus Challenge; the other is Columbus 2021)

2 x from USA (One of them has been accepted as Stars & Stripes Team USA)

1 x from Norway

1 x from the Netherlands (Tienpont)

1 x from China

1 x from Japan

@shanghaisailor Do you believe someone from China will be accepted? At this Point my view is NO but you're from that Country so I'd guess that you would have the better scoop than me.

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The Auckland City might start building 2 more bases and still we would not know and RNZYS would not have revealed. We would know that there were 6/7 challengers but not who?  The late fee would probably pay most??

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4 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

The Auckland City might start building 2 more bases and still we would not know and RNZYS would not have revealed. We would know that there were 6/7 challengers but not who?  The late fee would probably pay most??

Why would RNZYS keep people in the dark until March 31st 2019? I can't see that happening. I expect a Public Announcment by ETNZ/RNZYS as soon as the vetting is completed cuz that's usually how it's done.

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I think ETNZ might have valued being unlisted well into AC35.  Until they launched their boat and could not hide it any more?

Mmmm I guess the enemy would know !!?

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no new challengers - 6

1 new challenger - 9

2 new challengers - 30

3 new challengers - 20

more than 3 new challengers - 8

17/12/18 I wonder what it will be by Prada Cup time ????

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On 12/15/2018 at 5:02 PM, shanghaisailor said:

The Protocol is a contract between the defender and the Challenger of Record, NOT the "challengers". At least that is what I have been informed by those who know.

I don't know who's telling you that, but saying the protocol isn't a contract between the defender and each challenger is almost certainly wrong (IANAL and all that). The CoR represents all challengers and has certain rights that the others don't (spelled out in the protocol), but otherwise they're just a challenger.

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract. Otherwise, there's nothing binding any of the parties to any condition of the protocol.

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41 minutes ago, RobG said:

I don't know who's telling you that, but saying the protocol isn't a contract between the defender and each challenger is almost certainly wrong (IANAL and all that). The CoR represents all challengers and has certain rights that the others don't (spelled out in the protocol), but otherwise they're just a challenger.

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract. Otherwise, there's nothing binding any of the parties to any condition of the protocol.

You might like to click on the following link and tell me where in the document titled "The Protocol of the XXXVI America's Cup between ROYAL NEW ZEALAND YACHT CLUB and CIRCOLO DELA VELLA CICILIA" states it is anything more than an agreement (contract) between the defender and challenger. They are not "just a challenger", they are the "Challenger of Record" and given the financial help that ETNZ received in the last America's Cup have rather more power than many CoRs in the past.

I have been unable to find any wording in The Protocol that confers rights to a subsequent challenger that are similar to the Challenger of Record, quite the opposite. In fact the wording in many cases confers similar rights to both the Challenger of Record and the Defender as evidenced by the coupling of the two in may of the conditions of The Protocol (COR/D) with absolutely no mention of those rights extending to subsequent challengers. 

Or perhaps I have missed something - I hope not.

https://www.americascup.com/en/official/the-protocol

Interesting discussion though :-), shows how complicated these things are.

While on the point of The Protocol, I wonder why the RNZYS felt it necessary to include other conditions of entry beyond the Deed of Gift. I wonder who or what they were afraid of and who or what they were trying to exclude with their conditions of age of yacht club, number of members and 'pro-rata financial support by members. Would that have affected St Francis for example? I wonder.

Thanks for the interaction RobG it certainly helps to focus the mind.

Cheers &  see you on the water

SS 

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

I don't know who's telling you that, but saying the protocol isn't a contract between the defender and each challenger is almost certainly wrong (IANAL and all that). The CoR represents all challengers and has certain rights that the others don't (spelled out in the protocol), but otherwise they're just a challenger.

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract. Otherwise, there's nothing binding any of the parties to any condition of the protocol.

Yes you are right, others challengers have no right whatsoever, they can't even represent themselves: "The Initial Challenger of Record shall represent all challengers whose notices of challenge are accepted, (“Challenger” or “Challengers”) unless the Initial Challenger of Record relinquishes its position and a new Challenger of Record is appointed “COR”."

Worse, the Defender has veto rights for any possible new elected CoR which makes a joke of the CoR succession plan.

Ever heard of a vote, a veto, or a "deemed to have been received by the RNZYS at the same time",  in the Deed ?

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Cry Me a river. Big bad LR holds the power over all the Challengers.

We all saw what happened in Bermuda. Luna Rossa, when they became Challenger of Record after HIYC withdrew sighting unacceptable costs, in the spirit of goodwill, gave up/ waived their veto rights as CoR in favor of letting the Challengers work together, and were subsequently outvoted by majority of teams beholden to Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts and their vision, forcing them to withdraw. This was discussed when it happened, and many said "Well thats their fault for stupidly giving up their CoR rights" now you say "Oh thats not fair that they've got veto rights" give me a break.

According to the DoG, Mutual consent exists only between Challenger (Challenger of Record) and Defender. It is only fair and right this time around that LR retain its rights as CoR according to the DoG.

As usual, (some) people got to the extreme of thinking that LR is automatically going to vote against anything and everything the Challengers want.

Its the same as any vote, the action of voting gives you a voice, but just because you've voted, does not mean you're going to get what you voted for. Challengers vote, and LR as CoR decide whether that is in the best interests of the group, and the event.

So quit crying about it. LR has now, what they gave away in Bermuda. You know the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on Me. They won't be fooled again like they were fooled in Bermuda.

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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I have been unable to find any wording in The Protocol that confers rights to a subsequent challenger that are similar to the Challenger of Record, quite the opposite. In fact the wording in many cases confers similar rights to both the Challenger of Record and the Defender as evidenced by the coupling of the two in may of the conditions of The Protocol (COR/D) with absolutely no mention of those rights extending to subsequent challengers. 

 

What you are missing is what RobG said:

 

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract.

The main elements of a contract are offer, acceptance and consideration. Challenger is a defined term in the protocol and is explicitly not limited to the CoR. Agreement by the challenger to the protocol is as in Appendix 4 and also clause 51. Consideration ($$) is laid out in section 7. So the challenger makes an offer (template in Appendix 4), the defending club accepts the offer, the challenger pays the fees (contribution). The protocol is  therefore a contract between the defender and each challenger. The fact that the CoR has additional rights in the protocol versus other challengers does not negate that.

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Speaking of the CoR:

The Challenger of Record (in this case Luna Rossa Challenge) has their own obligations. Their obligation is to act in the interests of all the Challengers. That's why a CoR is chosen in the first place to be a Negotiator between the Defender and the Challenger(s).

What I've seen over the past 15 months since the Protocol for AC 36 came out is that LR has acted 100% in self-interest starting by renaming the Challenger Selection Series (CSS) the PRADA CUP. Ever since that News came out it's a subject of Debate and rightly so because it creates a "conflict of interest". The AC 36 Cycle quickly has become the "Patrizio Bertelli Show" and his goal to get the money back that he has to spent to win the AC. This is not good.

You wonder what Mr. Bertelli has up his sleeve for the next two years.

Luna Rossa is an absolute NIGHTMARE CoR for this Cycle.

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31 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Speaking of the CoR:

The Challenger of Record (in this case Luna Rossa Challenge) has their own obligations. Their obligation is to act in the interests of all the Challengers. That's why a CoR is chosen in the first place to be a Negotiator between the Defender and the Challenger(s).

What I've seen over the past 15 months since the Protocol for AC 36 came out is that LR has acted 100% in self-interest starting by renaming the Challenger Selection Series (CSS) the PRADA CUP. Ever since that News came out it's a subject of Debate and rightly so because it creates a "conflict of interest". The AC 36 Cycle quickly has become the "Patrizio Bertelli Show" and his goal to get the money back that he has to spent to win the AC. This is not good.

You wonder what Mr. Bertelli has up his sleeve for the next two years.

Luna Rossa is an absolute NIGHTMARE CoR for this Cycle.

FFS, you do exaggerate! You're like Donald Trump just saying anything that comes into your head whether its true or not hoping everyone will believe you. All they've done so far is act in the interests of the Challengers! You do realise Oracle was a sponsor of Americas Cup 35 right? Besides, if you're a sponsor of an event, wouldn't you want the event to be the best event it can be!? Patrizio Bertelli proved last time he was willing to work WITH the challengers by waiving the veto rights he was entitled to as CoR, and was then shat on by Ellisons poodle teams.

This time they have shown they are willing to accommodate new challengers.

You obviously have an overactive imagination and are just making up stories.

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