Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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It seems like there is a wild variance in our hopes/expectations!

So let us see who will hazard a guess ! ?

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Interesting to see Jack Griffin has voted for 3 - that is no new challengers. He was at the Prada cup launch 

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Yes I wonder what he knows that we don't?

Maybe Cor wont give any lenience at all?

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@JackGriffin I am very interested.  Is your reasoning in your Blog?

Is it wild informed speculation?

Give us a hint? please!

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TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

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I went with the 24% of responders that opted for three new challengers for a total of six.

Of course challenges fall over for the strangest reasons.

Still, the two accepted last-minute challengers passed the smell test with ETNZ and the Squadron.  And these were guys who committed to pitch in an extra million for the privilege of coming late to the party.

Not hard to imagine at least one more late-comer admitted.  Dutch and Chinese are high on my list.

Could be the problem in the Viaduct Basin will be finding bases for syndicates, not syndicates for bases!

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3 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

 

Still, the two accepted last-minute challengers passed the smell test

 

Please, the guy reeks of hair cream just from the picture - siding with Jack on this one

 

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TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

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12 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Please, the guy reeks of hair cream just from the picture - siding with Jack on this one

Well,  the former house painter in Perth and Raul Gardini from Venice didn't exactly  inspire confidence either.  Observations that were subsequently borne out in both cases.  Hey, AC history displays a rich vein of challenger financial rascals.

None of that has apparently given pause to the two Iains -  Iain Percy from Britain and Iain Murray - from Australia from displaying intense interest in the King's Shilling according to recent posts here on SA from the Star Sailor's League in Nassau  

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9 hours ago, Kiwing said:

TC is there something about racing the Prada Cup that I am missing?

Surely all Challengers will race the Prada Cup?

The Prada Cup is not mentioned in the protocol, however the official site qualifies it of CSS, so it will dertermine the final challenger.

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6 challengers fighting for the Prada cup and who will challenge for the cup! We are edging towards 6 !

Lots can happen between now and the Prada cup !

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I asked how many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

Near 30% are saying 6.  Sorry you will have to ask them.  But I have to say I never would have counted Malta, or even thought of it!! and I guess they might not make it?

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

We will see! I'd say getting a 6th Challenger or even a 7th looks more complicated so my vote was for 5.

Hey thank you for voting.  A mild distraction from the personal battles.

I have to say I am surprised that so many think there will be so many challengers.  I have a hopeful 5 (being a NZer) and expect there to be 4 really.

I guess it comes back to "competitive/serious" and learners. 3-4 serious and 1-2 learners.  But one thing is for sure in my mind Yachting in general will benefit.  My friends son (12 years old) has just put an Etchell internal halyard with self locking in his starling and jumped a few places in the fleet - trickle down!

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6 hours ago, Kiwing said:

has just put an Etchell internal halyard with self locking in his starling and jumped a few places in the fleet - trickle down!

Is it adjustable? AFAIK adjustable halyards are not legal in Starlings? May be its changed since I sailed them some 40 years ago.

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2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Is it adjustable? AFAIK adjustable halyards are not legal in Starlings? May be its changed since I sailed them some 40 years ago.

Thread deviation alert.! So we have 4 confirmed challenges. Who is the 5th unconfirmed?

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Carbonfibre rudders and centre boards, adjustable halyards, all the wizzkid stuff! The external halyard is adjustable too. crank it on to bow your mast, etc  Got to move with the times!!!

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3 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Carbonfibre rudders and centre boards, adjustable halyards, all the wizzkid stuff! The external halyard is adjustable too. crank it on to bow your mast, etc  Got to move with the times!!!

Wow....!!....Not surprised there's been some changes over the years. These days I'm way to big for a Starling, but I am looking forward to having a crack in my Brothers 3.7 this summer.

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We were close to 50% for 2 new making 5 and 20% 3 new making 6.

Now we are dropping towards 40% for 2 making 5 and rising to 30% for 3 making 6!

Interesting eh!

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@terrafirma I know no more than you except the tendency is heading toward 3 new challengers.

1) Malta, 2) ??? 3) ???

There is a twitter poll, closed now I think, which is testing the water but it is all guesses!

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15 hours ago, Kiwing said:

@Tornado-Cat what do you mean "not vetted"?

I mean that I answered your poll considering the nomber of teams that would really compete, not those accepted. As you know, paying the entry fees and competing are two different things. As Jack Griffin points in his last letter:

"Two of Oracle's Challengers of Record dropped out: Mascalzone Latino for the the 2013 AC and Hamilton Island Yacht Club for 2017. Other challengers also failed to raise the money they needed. At the first AC World Series regatta, in Cascais in 2011, seven challengers raced the then-brand-new AC45's, to prepare for building an AC72. None of these teams made it to San Francisco with an AC72: Greencom (ESP), Aleph (FRA), Energy Team (FRA), Team Korea and China Team. Emirates Team New Zealand and Artemis Racing were the only challengers from Cascais to build an AC72. Luna Rossa joined the circuit after the Plymouth ACWS, and bought their design from Emirates Team New Zealand."
 

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16 hours ago, Kiwing said:

@Tornado-Cat what do you mean "not vetted"?

I also answered based on how many new challengers I guessed would actually race in the ACWS.

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I actually asked who would race the Prada Cup.

So there is still time for entry and drop out.  It is a big hurdle to cart those boats around the place.  I'm not even sure if there will be concessions but what counts for this poll is who will race the Prada cup!  Might only be two!!!!! which I did not think of !!

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Anything is possible what could knock a team out before the Prada Cup.
Financial problems?
Boat failure?
Risk of life?
Dare I say the court drama?
Could go on.

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Inevitably the Fickle Finger of Fate may take down some unfortunates but I'd argue that the original three challengers look pretty solid when it comes to folks, funds and fabrication.  And as others have noted, the Johnnie-com-lately hopefuls will be loathe to slink away after kicking in around $4mil in entry fees, late fees, etc. On that front we should get better indications before year's end. 

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22 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Inevitably the Fickle Finger of Fate may take down some unfortunates but I'd argue that the original three challengers look pretty solid when it comes to folks, funds and fabrication.  And as others have noted, the Johnnie-com-lately hopefuls will be loathe to slink away after kicking in around $4mil in entry fees, late fees, etc. On that front we should get better indications before year's end. 

The late comers don't pay anything until 10 days after their challenge is accepted, the other $3mil is due on 31 December. Putting conditions on their entry is a way of delaying acceptance and keeping their options open a little longer. Delaying acceptance until 21 December means they keep them open for as long as possible (without change to the protocol, which seems unlikely at this stage).

The secrecy of the challengers is a sign that they're most likely serious, even if uncertain.

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Eh, I will stick with 5 total in ACWS going to Prada Cup.  

Not that I have millions to toss around but $4m in foregone fees from an abandoned challenge is less daunting  than the other $60m-$200m or whatever the rest of the cycle costs a team.  

Huh, court challenges. Wonder if anyone would litigate over Protocol changes for the new entrants?

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22 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Eh, I will stick with 5 total in ACWS going to Prada Cup.  

Not that I have millions to toss around but $4m in foregone fees from an abandoned challenge is less daunting  than the other $60m-$200m or whatever the rest of the cycle costs a team.  

Huh, court challenges. Wonder if anyone would litigate over Protocol changes for the new entrants?

I actually think you will find that if the Defender and COR agree the changes then it is a done deal, a court challenge would just be a waste of money. At least that is what I understand from those who know

SS

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I seriously doubt there will be a 6th challenger, but with the acceptance of Malta, there is a chance.

Malta will not make it to any regatta.

4 challengers at the Prada Cup.

Stars & Stripes may be able to get a 2nd boat.

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5 minutes ago, Chainlocker said:

I seriously doubt there will be a 6th challenger, but with the acceptance of Malta, there is a chance.

Malta will not make it to any regatta.

4 challengers at the Prada Cup.

Stars & Stripes may be able to get a 2nd boat.

Artemis Racing will win the Americas Cup...oh wait

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

LOL, why do you bring Artemis again now? @Chainlocker is right. Malta doesn't seem really credible to me. Iain, if he is indeed the Skipper will be on his own. Doubtful that Nathan Outteridge giving up SailGP with Japan to do this AC all over again with a Team that has no chance of succeeding.

Meanwhile partisan NZ Journalist Hack Gladwell seems to me blowing up smoke again like he always does with all these supposed Protocol Amendments incl. granting Challengers a forfait for the 1st ACWS Event in Cagliari 2019. If the Malta Altus Challenge is the lone Team who is not going to make it to Cagliari Luna Rossa/CoR ain't letting the Protocol being changed for just one single Team. It'll be either a) Built the Boat in time for Cagliari 2019 or b) Bust and go home for them.

Canfield/Buckley already indicated that they will be ready to race in Oct. 2019.

We have seen or heard nothing from the "Japanese SailGP team" other than the press release naming the team. Since then, we have had 2 new challengers, which the Malta team seemed very much last minute, and there are rumblings of Percy being involved. Its entirely possible Outteridge may opt to do the AC instead of SailGP. Unlikely? Maybe, but entirely possible.

It would seem more logical that Outteridge would want to do the AC again, if he could, especially if Percy and Jensen are involved rather than doing a regatta that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. If Outteridge misses out on this cycle, he could very well miss out on any further AC opportunities in the future if the new teams are indeed looking to the future. 

Question: Why would the protocol need to be changed for Malta? Their entry is already unconditional, meaning the ACWS arrangements have been made and accepted by both parties. They will either be there and carry on, or not. It is the calendar we are waiting on, not protocol changes. 

The only protocol changes that need to be made, are for teams who are still conditional, which Malta is not.

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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I actually think you will find that if the Defender and COR agree the changes then it is a done deal, a court challenge would just be a waste of money. At least that is what I understand from those who know

SS

I think that is a fallacy arising from too much focus on the DoG. The protocol is a contract between defender and challengers.

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They're sailing boats in a race not going into battle.  Nathan and Iain have raced each other in multiple events and classes (ie. As and Moths).  No different to their Kiwi 49er mates racing on different Volvo boats.  When it is your job you follow the pay check.  There is no way the SailGP is paying a fraction of the wages or offers any of the job security of even an America's Cup B Team.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I see it differently. Why on earth would Outeridge be willing to race against Percy or his best buddy Iain Jensen in the AC? Outteridge & Jensen are best buddies. They would never race against each other in the AC. I also doubt Jensen would want to breach his contract with Ineos to be with Nathan racing for the Malta Challenge.

One thing I could see is Jensen coaxing Nathan into Ineos. Ben is 44 years old when Auckland 2021 rolls around. I know Ineos already has a Back-Up Helmsman in Leigh McMillan but he has never diven these kind of new animals and is primarily the Helmsman for the Ineos Rebels Programme. Handing the steering Keys to Nathan Ben would freed up to do Tactics with Scott being the Strategist and Jensen trimming the Main. That could work out well. The Combo of Spithill/Ainslie/Slingsby clobbered Barker/Davies in 2013. Ben is much better of doing Tactics than Steering with these 75-footers I think.

Because thats what they get paid to do. Its not like you can't be "best buddies" just because you're racing against each other.

Ben, Dean Barker and Jimmy Spithill will all be around the same age when 2021 rolls around. Can't see Ben giving up the helm of a British boat to an Aussie.

At the start of the AC in 2013, Davies and Barker were completely dominant. Even Ken Read said it was "The Ray Davies show". Moral of the story...a faster boat will always make a tactician look good.

 

 

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I believe these boats require faster reaction times that twenty somethings have and thirty somethings don't.

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

I believe these boats require faster reaction times that twenty somethings have and thirty somethings don't.

There are goal keepers and F1 drivers who keep going into their forties, pretty sure you can still sail a boat at 40 even one doing close to 50 knots.

Kimi Räikkönen was 3rd in F1 this year at 39 years old.

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It's about muscle memory.  If you are only fine tuning the reactions it true 40s can do it.

If you are learning something completely new the younger you are the better.  Problem for teens is their decision making is not quite there, so 25 is probably perfect.

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

I believe these boats require faster reaction times that twenty somethings have and thirty somethings don't.

For the record, Glenn Ashby will be 44 by the time the AC rolls around. That makes him 41 now and still winning A-Cat World Championships.

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Glenn Ashby is amazing.  Well Done Glenn!

He just caught foiling in time in the As, I think.

Fine tuning - he will continue to be able to do it until something out of left field comes along.

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6 is quickly catching up to 5 !!

Until they start dropping out, then it will decline again ???

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I would think if you were going to drop out, you would've done it by now while your entry was still conditional and before the public announcement was made. Can't see any challengers dropping out now. They'd surely be too far into the planning stage to drop out.

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

Thats a change. A few weeks ago, you said 3 was the best they'd get.

Be honest, no one thought Malta would challenge, yet here they are, so I think we just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. I'm picking at least one more, but if not, 5 works just fine. 

Wonder if we'll see Russell and/ or Larry's names come up.

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

I would think if you were going to drop out, you would've done it by now while your entry was still conditional and before the public announcement was made. Can't see any challengers dropping out now. They'd surely be too far into the planning stage to drop out.

I didn't mean drop out under your control, I meant, drop out due to not getting money promised, bad break of equipment, loss of personal etc., beyond your control.  We have seen a few over the years.

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23 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

I didn't mean drop out under your control, I meant, drop out due to not getting money promised, bad break of equipment, loss of personal etc., beyond your control.  We have seen a few over the years.

Agreed, you have obviously more chances to be right than clarkey's fantasies.

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Is there any financial/political gain for ETNZ (Auckland Council, funding) to be had from artificially propping up the "expected numbers"?

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@Basiliscus no new challengers make it to the Prada Cup!  That makes 3 in the Prada Cup!

Normally I would think very deeply about disagreeing with you.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Agreed, you have obviously more chances to be right than clarkey's fantasies.

You really are obsessed with Me. I'm flattered, but I hope you understand, I'm just not that into you:)

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club just to name a few. Or maybe we get a Joint China/Japan Challenge?

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

Not much activity on the Italian Columbus 21 front.

As I've previously said,  not a hope in hell of joint Japan/China effort. Asian neighbours but vast cultural differences.  Nothing in common when it comes to sailing. Of the two China with Craig Monk may still emerge as a challenger.

I'd say Stars & Stripes should be a goer.  They've been at it for a year.  Good principals, good club, strong match race skills and now Dirty Dennis has given them the nod. If they do a deal for access to his sponsor contacts and supporter donors it should be a big boost. Of course there will be a cost.

I've written off Norway.  Hopes for the Dutch and Tienpoint are fading

Of course the big unknown here is the global economy. Trump is pushing us into uncharted waters and there is nothing like a threatening recession to dry up funding sources.

Edited by KiwiJoker
correction!

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9 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Glenn Ashby is amazing.  Well Done Glenn!

He just caught foiling in time in the As, I think.

Fine tuning - he will continue to be able to do it until something out of left field comes along.

AMAC and Goughie were on the podium in the early foiling Moth worlds, when everything was new and left field, at about 53 and 45 years of age. There are plenty of older skiffies and cat sailors. Windsurfer Thierry Bielak was 46 when he became the first person to break 45 knots under sail, and he did 49.94 knots over a 500m course at the age of 59. Plenty of middle-aged windsurfers and kiters sail in very close proximity to crowds of other boards at closing speeds of 70+ knots. AC sailors who only have to deal with a couple of other fast boats with pro crews would probably have an easier job in many ways. 

 

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Sounds like either the Columbus 2021 people or the author or Google translate or all are focusing on paying about $5M soon. I would not throw $5M out of bed, but if I were expecting enough to run a campaign to be in hand in time to finish a boat, train a team, compete,  $5M would be 5% or less of that?  Layaway model?

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Did I jump too soon on Columbus 2021?

Could someone please so kind and translate this Article in English

https://www.lastampa.it/2018/12/13/societa/americas-cup-a-imperia-il-conto-alla-rovescia-in-scadenza-hcE7jzhwUUW8EHBWA9AifP/pagina.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I'm not that very good at Italian but it looks like Columbus 2021 lodged in a "Conditional Entry" with the RNZYS with the condition to host an ACWS Event in Italy next year.

Here's the key bit - a literal Google Chrome translation of the original Italian. Seems to me like an awful lot of coulda-woulda-shoulda all in a very tight time frame.  

"Imperia, or rather the Yacht Club of Imperia, is a candidate to become one of the challengers of the America's Cup 2021. He presented his request for registration to the Royal Yacht Squadron of Auckland, the yacht club of the defender, who welcomed it . Now, because it's perfect, you need the money. How many? Imperia has tried to condition its registration to a delay in payment of the fees, which has been rejected by kiwis. Therefore, he must pour. How much?

"Within 10 days from the date of acceptance of the application, 1 million dollars of the registration fee of June (First Payment) must be paid, plus the first installment of 275 thousand dollars of the million foreseen for the next enrollment tranche by 30 November ( the Second Payment can be deferred, with an increase of 10% of the total). This is the first major payment and the countdown is expiring: there are only a few days left. Without breath, because by December 31 must be paid also the million established for those who register late (Late Entry Fee): total, 2 million 275 thousand euros. That's not all, because a further million dollars as a Performance Bond should also be paid to ensure participation in the World Series. Total by December 31st: 3 million 275 thousand USD. Will Imperia do it? "Nothing is closed yet", says Savini."

Doesn't sound like anything you'd want to bet on but we have to remember this the Italian equivalent of the NZ Herald offering its myopic take on things!

 

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"…Imperia has tried to condition its registration to a delay in payment of the fees"

So they were hoping to delay, probably to give them more time to raise the capital (or whatever). Given that their conditions have been rejected, their entry is now effectively unconditional. Are they now in limbo? Or has their entry been accepted (assuming vetting has occurred) and the countdown has started on the 10 days to pay USD1 million or withdraw.

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17 hours ago, Curious said:

AMAC and Goughie were on the podium in the early foiling Moth worlds, when everything was new and left field, at about 53 and 45 years of age.

Sure, but I think the basic premise is correct: the older you get, the harder it is to learn new skills. Both those guys were very, very good sailors before they started foiling. They do show that if you already have the skills, they can be applied to a new environment where a same–aged competitor without those skills may never be able to acquire them, or at least really struggle.

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It also says somewhere that contacts with the original Columbus 2021 group have been severed, so ATM it’s just the Imperia Yacht Club ...

 

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The exceptions proves the rule.

OK I surrender! These guys are examples of fit "between the ears" people it just gets harder and harder with every year.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:18 AM, dogwatch said:

I think that is a fallacy arising from too much focus on the DoG. The protocol is a contract between defender and challengers.

The Protocol is a contract between the defender and the Challenger of Record, NOT the "challengers". At least that is what I have been informed by those who know.

The DoG has been added to by RNZYS with the inclusion of conditions including number of members of challenger club, length of time that club has been in existence and that it is broadly speaking funded by members "pro-rata". I wonder who or what they were trying to exclude with those additions.

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:46 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

Be realistic. 5 was the best Number ETNZ/RNZYS could get. Everything what comes now is a Bonus & gravy

Columbus 2021? Nope, I think they won't make it

Norway? Ditto, I don't think they going to make it either

Dutch (Tienpont)? Looking unlikely at this Point

That leaves China and Japan with China being more likely than Japan assuming Craig Monk can put the money together. Who could be the Yacht Club? Ningbo Yacht Club, Royal Hong Kong Yacht Club or Qingdao International Yacht Club just to name a few. Or maybe we get a Joint China/Japan Challenge?

Qingdao & Hong Kong should be able to host an ACWS Event if required.

Wide of the mark in many ways. QIYC were the Chinese "club of challenge" the last time round. Founded 5 days before the challenge was made, had no members, no boats and never run a race never mind a regatta - not many other ways they could not have been legitimate but ACM (spelled Ernesto) wanted a China entry. What they actually got was a French entry in "China Team by Le Defi".

The subsequent successful court action by Larry Ellison against CNEV's naming as CoR showed QIYC should never have been accepted by Yacht Club Du Geneve as CNEV was actually MORE DoG compliant than QIYC.

QIYC wasn't the only Chinese club which entered in that cycle but the other club felt that although they had the seed money for entry, bond and so on could not be sure of sufficient sponsorship to do their challenge and more important The Cup justice so withdrew at 1545 (Swiss time) on the final day for entries. That club WAS 100% DoG compliant.

I would be surprised if RNZYS accepted a challenge from a club that shouldn't have been there before but who knows.

As far a Craig Monk is concerned, not taking anything away from him but he is a grinder and has little experience at raising funds or managing a team, certainly at the level of an America's Cup campaign but never say never.....

Comments above about Dongfeng winning the Volvo Ocean Race and then moving onto the America's Cup are perhaps wishful thinking. Dongfeng Automotive achieved their goal both as a sailing team and corporately with their win into The Hague and the is no reason I can see that they would wish to jump classes and enter the America's Cup - it's a different animal altogether.

RHKYC is in Hong Kong (surprisingly) but although it is a Chinese SAR, the sailing scene there is quite separate from that in China.

There are however many more sailing clubs in China apart from QIYC and Ningbo and more active to boot. (see front page)

Little point in speculating however, whichever clubs & nations are in the mix and process of acceptance or otherwise will soon become clear. Then the hard work begins. 

I wonder what we will talk about then :-)

SS

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What would stop an accepted challenger wanting to be the Dark horse asking RNZYS not to reveal and not announcing until the 31st March?

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The Auckland City might start building 2 more bases and still we would not know and RNZYS would not have revealed. We would know that there were 6/7 challengers but not who?  The late fee would probably pay most??

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I think ETNZ might have valued being unlisted well into AC35.  Until they launched their boat and could not hide it any more?

Mmmm I guess the enemy would know !!?

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no new challengers - 6

1 new challenger - 9

2 new challengers - 30

3 new challengers - 20

more than 3 new challengers - 8

17/12/18 I wonder what it will be by Prada Cup time ????

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On 12/15/2018 at 5:02 PM, shanghaisailor said:

The Protocol is a contract between the defender and the Challenger of Record, NOT the "challengers". At least that is what I have been informed by those who know.

I don't know who's telling you that, but saying the protocol isn't a contract between the defender and each challenger is almost certainly wrong (IANAL and all that). The CoR represents all challengers and has certain rights that the others don't (spelled out in the protocol), but otherwise they're just a challenger.

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract. Otherwise, there's nothing binding any of the parties to any condition of the protocol.

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41 minutes ago, RobG said:

I don't know who's telling you that, but saying the protocol isn't a contract between the defender and each challenger is almost certainly wrong (IANAL and all that). The CoR represents all challengers and has certain rights that the others don't (spelled out in the protocol), but otherwise they're just a challenger.

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract. Otherwise, there's nothing binding any of the parties to any condition of the protocol.

You might like to click on the following link and tell me where in the document titled "The Protocol of the XXXVI America's Cup between ROYAL NEW ZEALAND YACHT CLUB and CIRCOLO DELA VELLA CICILIA" states it is anything more than an agreement (contract) between the defender and challenger. They are not "just a challenger", they are the "Challenger of Record" and given the financial help that ETNZ received in the last America's Cup have rather more power than many CoRs in the past.

I have been unable to find any wording in The Protocol that confers rights to a subsequent challenger that are similar to the Challenger of Record, quite the opposite. In fact the wording in many cases confers similar rights to both the Challenger of Record and the Defender as evidenced by the coupling of the two in may of the conditions of The Protocol (COR/D) with absolutely no mention of those rights extending to subsequent challengers. 

Or perhaps I have missed something - I hope not.

https://www.americascup.com/en/official/the-protocol

Interesting discussion though :-), shows how complicated these things are.

While on the point of The Protocol, I wonder why the RNZYS felt it necessary to include other conditions of entry beyond the Deed of Gift. I wonder who or what they were afraid of and who or what they were trying to exclude with their conditions of age of yacht club, number of members and 'pro-rata financial support by members. Would that have affected St Francis for example? I wonder.

Thanks for the interaction RobG it certainly helps to focus the mind.

Cheers &  see you on the water

SS 

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

I don't know who's telling you that, but saying the protocol isn't a contract between the defender and each challenger is almost certainly wrong (IANAL and all that). The CoR represents all challengers and has certain rights that the others don't (spelled out in the protocol), but otherwise they're just a challenger.

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract. Otherwise, there's nothing binding any of the parties to any condition of the protocol.

Yes you are right, others challengers have no right whatsoever, they can't even represent themselves: "The Initial Challenger of Record shall represent all challengers whose notices of challenge are accepted, (“Challenger” or “Challengers”) unless the Initial Challenger of Record relinquishes its position and a new Challenger of Record is appointed “COR”."

Worse, the Defender has veto rights for any possible new elected CoR which makes a joke of the CoR succession plan.

Ever heard of a vote, a veto, or a "deemed to have been received by the RNZYS at the same time",  in the Deed ?

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Cry Me a river. Big bad LR holds the power over all the Challengers.

We all saw what happened in Bermuda. Luna Rossa, when they became Challenger of Record after HIYC withdrew sighting unacceptable costs, in the spirit of goodwill, gave up/ waived their veto rights as CoR in favor of letting the Challengers work together, and were subsequently outvoted by majority of teams beholden to Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts and their vision, forcing them to withdraw. This was discussed when it happened, and many said "Well thats their fault for stupidly giving up their CoR rights" now you say "Oh thats not fair that they've got veto rights" give me a break.

According to the DoG, Mutual consent exists only between Challenger (Challenger of Record) and Defender. It is only fair and right this time around that LR retain its rights as CoR according to the DoG.

As usual, (some) people got to the extreme of thinking that LR is automatically going to vote against anything and everything the Challengers want.

Its the same as any vote, the action of voting gives you a voice, but just because you've voted, does not mean you're going to get what you voted for. Challengers vote, and LR as CoR decide whether that is in the best interests of the group, and the event.

So quit crying about it. LR has now, what they gave away in Bermuda. You know the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on Me. They won't be fooled again like they were fooled in Bermuda.

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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I have been unable to find any wording in The Protocol that confers rights to a subsequent challenger that are similar to the Challenger of Record, quite the opposite. In fact the wording in many cases confers similar rights to both the Challenger of Record and the Defender as evidenced by the coupling of the two in may of the conditions of The Protocol (COR/D) with absolutely no mention of those rights extending to subsequent challengers. 

 

What you are missing is what RobG said:

 

All challengers must agree to the protocol and pay a consideration, in return they get an opportunity to play the game, which are the fundamental components of a contract.

The main elements of a contract are offer, acceptance and consideration. Challenger is a defined term in the protocol and is explicitly not limited to the CoR. Agreement by the challenger to the protocol is as in Appendix 4 and also clause 51. Consideration ($$) is laid out in section 7. So the challenger makes an offer (template in Appendix 4), the defending club accepts the offer, the challenger pays the fees (contribution). The protocol is  therefore a contract between the defender and each challenger. The fact that the CoR has additional rights in the protocol versus other challengers does not negate that.

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31 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Speaking of the CoR:

The Challenger of Record (in this case Luna Rossa Challenge) has their own obligations. Their obligation is to act in the interests of all the Challengers. That's why a CoR is chosen in the first place to be a Negotiator between the Defender and the Challenger(s).

What I've seen over the past 15 months since the Protocol for AC 36 came out is that LR has acted 100% in self-interest starting by renaming the Challenger Selection Series (CSS) the PRADA CUP. Ever since that News came out it's a subject of Debate and rightly so because it creates a "conflict of interest". The AC 36 Cycle quickly has become the "Patrizio Bertelli Show" and his goal to get the money back that he has to spent to win the AC. This is not good.

You wonder what Mr. Bertelli has up his sleeve for the next two years.

Luna Rossa is an absolute NIGHTMARE CoR for this Cycle.

FFS, you do exaggerate! You're like Donald Trump just saying anything that comes into your head whether its true or not hoping everyone will believe you. All they've done so far is act in the interests of the Challengers! You do realise Oracle was a sponsor of Americas Cup 35 right? Besides, if you're a sponsor of an event, wouldn't you want the event to be the best event it can be!? Patrizio Bertelli proved last time he was willing to work WITH the challengers by waiving the veto rights he was entitled to as CoR, and was then shat on by Ellisons poodle teams.

This time they have shown they are willing to accommodate new challengers.

You obviously have an overactive imagination and are just making up stories.

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5 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It is chosen by ETNZ/RNZYS. The Circolo della Vela Sicilia who is acting as CoR was chosen by the Kiwis. They handpicked P$B.

The team who lodges the first entry becomes the Challenger of Record. If they withdraw, the second entry received becomes CoR. Again, just saying things that pop into your head that aren't true.

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Agreed. Nevertheless, the process stays the same. Always has, always will. Besides, sometimes it pays to have a Challenger ready, willing and prepared in every way to take on the role. Prevents situations like we saw in Bermuda where the goalposts were constantly moving and plans kept changing, then before they knew it, they had two Challenger of Records withdraw because they either couldn't keep up with rising costs or didn't agree with major protocol changes.

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57 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Theory verse practise !

We all know how it is rigged !

They all rigged it, which does not make it correct IMO. But the CoR succession plan is more interesting.

Oracle rigged the computer receiving the Challenges (you know this NZ challenge received split of a second later), TNZ does it deeming that all challenges were received à the same time and that TNZ has veto rights. I would not hate to see that challenged as the MC only covers the conditions of the match not chosing of a new CoR, which is presently the case.

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20 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Under the Deed of Gift, and Protocol there is no such thing as a conditional Challenge. If your club complies with the Deed of Gift, and Protocol - provided that the Protocol does not over-ride the provisions of the Deed of Gift, then the Challenge has to be accepted by the Defender. Any pre-Conditions get negotiated after entry via the limited Mutual Consent provisions of the Deed of Gift. The Challenger may not want to enter under those terms - but that is their call - not the Defender and certainly not the Challenger of Record's.

Approaches by Sail-World NZ to the Challenger of Record organisation and one of the believed Challengers drew a polite "No comment".

It would be expected that Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and Emirates Team New Zealand would be trying to accept all the Challenges that comply. The Deed of Gift is very clear that a Defender cannot do otherwise, and trying to cherry pick Challenges can expect an expensive response in the New York Supreme Court or at best the Arbitration Panel for the 36th America's Cup.

 

Well, as I always said, I am pretty sure the CoR is blocking and the Defender willing to accept. I would not be asthonished to imagine DG telling PB: if you don't accept those who comply we will face the NYSC.

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15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, as I always said, I am pretty sure the CoR is blocking and the Defender willing to accept. I would not be asthonished to imagine DG telling PB: if you don't accept those who comply we will face the NYSC.

 FFS TC, you're sounding like stinger now, building a position on pure conjecture, extrapolating that, and commenting on your conclusion.

I'll have more respect for your position when there is one peep from a chall; pretty sure GD ain't gonna go for a gag rule.

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1 minute ago, barfy said:

 FFS TC, you're sounding like stinger now, building a position on pure conjecture, extrapolating that, and commenting on your conclusion.

I'll have more respect for your position when there is one peep from a chall; pretty sure GD ain't gonna go for a gag rule.

Isn't it why we are here for ? Or we can just post links and cut & paste, boring. I don't oblige you or anybody to share my guess. I don't pretend, I may right or wrong, w'll see, part of the fun here.

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9 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

The CoR is The Challenger, it is not chosen.

That was clearly the intention of the authors of the DoG. However in recent history defenders have not been so casual as to permit a challenge from a hostile challenger and AC36 is no exception. The CoR was chosen.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Agreed! This is a Discussion Forum. People have different Opinions. And it's certainly not a Forum where we have to say "Yes and Amen" to this Bertelli show. Time for Dalts to grow some balls here against P$B.

It'd be okay if you had something, anything factual, but you don't. You just say anything that pops into your head even if its clearly not true, with nothing to back it up with. And then you tell people to stop bullying you when you get called out on it.

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I can't believe I'm saying this but, after reading all the drivel from AFE I'm coming around to your point of view, remarkable since I once considered you for ignore status (for the record I'm still taking SA "unfiltered").

I actually like the COR & would love to see them win the whole thing, it's shake ups in the general order that I love the most (except for the current POTUS), that's why I was pulling for Cayard & IL Moro all those years ago.

And barring an LR win I could go for another round of you guys keeping the "big shiny".

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True, it is part and parcel of the fun. But normally conjecture starts with some observation of a fact, whether an article,a picture,a video...some yellow lines.

Where do you get"I'm pretty sure the cor is blocking" from? Linky?

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8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

That was clearly the intention of the authors of the DoG. However in recent history defenders have not been so casual as to permit a challenge from a hostile challenger and AC36 is no exception. The CoR was chosen.

You can't know this.
Probably it went like always: The CoR approached the soon-to-be Defender, of course before the soon-to-be Defender, resp. its team crossed the finish line, and agreed that it would challenge in case the soon-to-be Defender wins. There was no choice involved, it's still a challenge, as the initiative came from the CoR. It's not like several YCs were fighting each other to lodge their challenge, at least not to out knowledge.
I assume that there weren't any other YCs/teams around that wanted to be CoR anyway. Usually it's not a position a YC/team wants to be in.

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Oh, yes he can. You're pretty naive if you think that there wasn't collaboration between the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and the Circolo della Vela Sicilia behind the scenes before the New Zealanders crossed the Final Finish Line in Bermuda and the Italians signed up as CoR. It's always been that way. Do you really think for example BMW Oracle signed up as CoR at the last minute when Alinghi crossed as Winners of AC 31? No, because there is months of planning involved.

And renaming the LVC the PRADA CUP after the AC 36 Protocol had been released was purely acting in self-interest by Patrizio - Period. Naming it PRADA CUP but sponsoring his own Italian Entry with the PRADA BRAND does create a huge "conflict of interest".

You are severly underestimating Mr. Bertellis intentions here. After coming up short several times that guy will go over dead people to win this thing. He doesn't care if he wins it legally or illegally. He just wants to win it.

While Dalts can be a bit of a hypocrite sometimes which the cost thingy I commend him for trying to put up a great show in 2020/2021 for Auckland, the NZ Economy, Spectators, etc. Make no mistake, Dalts wants as many Teams/Challenges involved, Mr. Bertelli doesn't because with every new Challenger being accepted his chances of winning it are dimming. Mark my words: At the end of the AC 36 Cycle Bertelli is going to be Dalts worst nightmare.

I can't believe I am saying this but should the AC 36 Match be between New Zealand and Italy all the Kiwis here on this board will have "The biggest Supporter Ever" pulling for a Kiwi Team because if the Italians win and that Italian Clown gets his hands on the Trophy the Cup is dead.

Have you read my post at all?
While confirming what I wrote in your first paragraph, you reply to a totally different post that apparently only you read, but nobody wrote in the first place.
By the way, don't ever try to lecture me about the Deed. It's certainly not you who has the knowledge nor the format to do so. You can put your naïveté where the sun don't shine, A4E.
And now I follow so many here and will ignore you. Bye.

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16 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Oh, yes he can. You're pretty naive if you think that there wasn't collaboration between the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and the Circolo della Vela Sicilia behind the scenes before the New Zealanders crossed the Final Finish Line in Bermuda and the Italians signed up as CoR. It's always been that way. Do you really think for example BMW Oracle signed up as CoR at the last minute when Alinghi crossed as Winners of AC 31? No, because there is months of planning involved.

And renaming the LVC the PRADA CUP after the AC 36 Protocol had been released was purely acting in self-interest by Patrizio - Period. Naming it PRADA CUP but sponsoring his own Italian Entry with the PRADA BRAND does create a huge "conflict of interest".

You are severly underestimating Mr. Bertellis intentions here. After coming up short several times that guy will go over dead people to win this thing. He doesn't care if he wins it legally or illegally. He just wants to win it.

While Dalts can be a bit of a hypocrite sometimes which the cost thingy I commend him for trying to put up a great show in 2020/2021 for Auckland, the NZ Economy, Spectators, etc. Make no mistake, Dalts wants as many Teams/Challenges involved, Mr. Bertelli doesn't because with every new Challenger being accepted his chances of winning it are dimming. Mark my words: At the end of the AC 36 Cycle Bertelli is going to be Dalts worst nightmare.

I can't believe I am saying this but should the AC 36 Match be between New Zealand and Italy all the Kiwis here on this board will have "The biggest Supporter Ever" pulling for a Kiwi Team because if the Italians win and that Italian Clown gets his hands on the Trophy the Cup is dead.

You just proved how ridiculous you can be. If it can survive Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts, it can survive anything

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20 minutes ago, mfluder said:

You just proved how ridiculous you can be. If it can survive Larry Ellison and Russell Coutts, it can survive anything

LOL

Maybe to be "fair" they should just line up the Commodores of any and all yacht clubs that want to vie for CoR and as soon as the winner crosses the line they all race/scrummage to hand a paper challenge to the winning Commodore.  Might encourage young, fit club leadership during race years.   

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13 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I don't think that's the problem T-C. The Problem is "Space in Auckland Habour". If Stars & Stripes are indeed building two boats Wynyard Point Inn is FULL so they have to find/free some space elsewhere and Auckland City Council do not know where at this Point.

I wonder if another limiting factor could be the production of canting mechanisms for the boats. With the mix of one and two boat campaigns it looks like maybe eight boats needing equipment? At two mechanisms per boat that's 16 units to be constructed, tested and maintained. Anybody know who is putting these things together, and what their production capacity is?

Cheers,

Earl

 

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I don't know 100% Earl but I read somewhere that the foil arms are being constructed at Persico in Italy. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

dg_sailingfan