Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

126 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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Seems like a lot of time being wasted for teams that probably won't make the start line:ph34r:

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Seems like a lot of time being wasted for teams that probably won't make the start line:ph34r:

Seems like the fastest way to get to closure... and generated $6m in the process...

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

 and generated $6m in the process...

If you think of the late entry fees I don't know how you get to these maths, first there are only 3 lates teams, Netherlands, Malta and one US team.

Also, they have to pay 250 000 for April 1st and 750 000 by October 1. Do you seriously believe they will all make it up ?

And if there was no negotiation this time, then P$B accepted unconditionally all GD conditions or... made some secret deal. As we are in the AC I would tend to believe the second option.

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There is a $1m performance bond due April 30.  

 

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28 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If you think of the late entry fees I don't know how you get to these maths, first there are only 3 lates teams, Netherlands, Malta and one US team.

Also, they have to pay 250 000 for April 1st and 750 000 by October 1. Do you seriously believe they will all make it up ?

And if there was no negotiation this time, then P$B accepted unconditionally all GD conditions or... made some secret deal. As we are in the AC I would tend to believe the second option.

3

"And if there was no negotiation this time, then P$B accepted unconditionally all GD conditions or... made some secret deal. As we are in the AC I would tend to believe the second option. "

Looking for shady bargains again,T-C? 

We don't know the extent of talks, negotiations, whatever in Auckland last week.

Inconceivable that a couple of recognized hard-nosed characters would simply talk the issue through and come up with a fair-minded outcome?

 

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If you think of the late entry fees I don't know how you get to these maths, first there are only 3 lates teams, Netherlands, Malta and one US team.

Also, they have to pay 250 000 for April 1st and 750 000 by October 1. Do you seriously believe they will all make it up ?

As @NeedAClew pointed out, my maths was wrong - it should actually be more - $9million.

My calculations are ($1m entry fee + $1m performance bond + $1m late entry fee) x 3 late entered teams.

If their late entry wasn't accepted, then none of the money would be forthcoming, not just the late fee. So by getting agreement, the windfall is up to $9.

Plus if these teams make it to any ACWS regattas they need to splunk another $350,000 per team per regatta so there's another $5.25m of revenue there too..

Certainly worth a plane flight from Italy to enjoying our cracking summer weather at the moment, let alone sorting out this little deal :-)

6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

And if there was no negotiation this time, then P$B accepted unconditionally all GD conditions or... made some secret deal. As we are in the AC I would tend to believe the second option.

The AC sure can attract scoundrels, but it doesn't make them... many people can at times conduct themselves in reasonable ways and act in good faith... granted we haven't had much of it recent AC history, but that says more about those individuals than it does about the AC itself...

 

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W'll only know the real figure at the end of the dead lines, for what it's worth, which means nothing in an AC budget.

If they had conducted themselves in a reasonable way, in good faith, they would not have had to resort to arbitration first.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

W'll only know the real figure at the end of the dead lines, for what it's worth, which means nothing in an AC budget.

If they had conducted themselves in a reasonable way, in good faith, they would not have had to resort to arbitration first.

 

 

Quelle surprise "nothing is real until it's real"

Quelle surprise again "some people will never be happy"

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So maybe this was part of the discussion between GD and PB - doubt it's something arbitration would have been able to work worth.

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Will be interested in what they do come up with for the foil arm supplied parts. Wonder if early boats get modified ones later on if they are still a work in progress?

I think I am sticking with my vote/guess of 5 sailing in Prada Cup.  Not sure 5 will finish though.

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It is NOT a setback,, its was pretty clear since last year.

They did not have to renegotiate the protocol either, as the possibiity was mentionned.

a)      possibly an initial one or two events during the second half of 2019 counting towards the America's Cup World Series regattas ("ACVVS") at venues determined by COR/D and announced on or before 31 March 2019;

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“Ironically the Ides of March was known in Roman times as the deadline on which all debts must be settled.

The date, perhaps better known as that of Julius Caesar's assassination, seems to have acquired a new poignance in the context of 36th America's Cup”

https://www.sail-world.com/news/215254/Am-Cup-Ides-of-March-deadline-for-Entry-Fee-debt

Good piece, clarifies a lot. So, the three late challengers haven’t paid a cent so far, but have to make very substantial payments by March 15 or they’re out. That should clear the air

 

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Well,  it seemed obvious to me that some if not all of them will not survive the ides of march, or later assination deadlines.

More interesting would be to know how sir Ben is amused by the postponements while he will be, IMO, the first to be sailing his AC75.

And, will the foil arm be ready in time ?

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Even if they scrape up the March-April payments, they need to build boats and pay people.  How much do you think an AC 75 costs to build?

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well,  it seemed obvious to me that some if not all of them will not survive the ides of march, or later assination deadlines.

More interesting would be to know how sir Ben is amused by the postponements while he will be, IMO, the first to be sailing his AC75.

And, will the foil arm be ready in time ?

4

"And, will the foil arm be ready in time?"

And there we have the clincher, the burning question.

Seems delivery of foil arms will decide launch times, regardless of the readiness of individual syndicates.

Is there a waiting list, with assigned order of delivery times, or will a batch of arms be shipped all at the same time?

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21 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

"And, will the foil arm be ready in time?"

And there we have the clincher, the burning question.

Seems delivery of foil arms will decide launch times, regardless of the readiness of individual syndicates.

Is there a waiting list, with assigned order of delivery times, or will a batch of arms be shipped all at the same time?

As we know that time is the most precious asset in the AC this is a key issue for all teams.

I would assume that could be the real reason of PB travel to NZ.

1) if assigned by a waiting list, I wonder what would be a fair criteria: date of entry ? date the yacht is ready to launch ?

2) if they ship it by batch it would fairer IMO.

Unless.... all the fuss was to negotiate late entries with PB.

 

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^ Wow - it's ALL conspiracies with you isn't it.....are people around you really such scumbags? Oh hang on

Funny how you spot imaginary ones and yet manage to miss the real ones :blink:

Entertaining anyway

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4 hours ago, nav said:

^ Wow - it's ALL conspiracies with you isn't it.....and yet manage to miss the real ones :blink:

 

You spend nearly a decade pretending the uncover Oracle and US conspiracies among which the Herbie and now you come to give lessons.

Pathetic, mainly as you still pretend there are some real ones. Can you make up your mind nav ? :D

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On 3/9/2019 at 2:25 AM, KiwiJoker said:

"And, will the foil arm be ready in time?"

And there we have the clincher, the burning question.

Seems delivery of foil arms will decide launch times, regardless of the readiness of individual syndicates.

Is there a waiting list, with assigned order of delivery times, or will a batch of arms be shipped all at the same time?

 

Once arm structural design / fabrication process has been validated, there’s nothing preventing farming out construction to more than one supplier, if need be. I’m sure all teams will provide ply-by-ply monitoring of their respective arms, anyway

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You spend nearly a decade pretending the uncover Oracle and US conspiracies among which the Herbie and now you come to give lessons.

Pathetic, mainly as you still pretend there are some real ones. Can you make up your mind nav ? :D

:lol: Hmmmm, yet it's you that has tried to launch about 4 on this page alone Spin-Cat!?

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2 hours ago, nav said:

:lol: Hmmmm, yet it's you that has tried to launch about 4 on this page alone Spin-Cat!?

Spare us the bullshit whinav, you said : "manage to miss the real ones", what are the real conspiracies ?

 

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Spare us the bullshit whinav, you said : "manage to miss the real ones", what are the real conspiracies ?

 

Jimmy is installing Herbie 2.0!

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15 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Jimmy is installing Herbie 2.0!

Don't tell that to nav, h's going to harp it for the next 10 years.

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https://www.sail-world.com/news/215419/Americas-Cup-Arb-Panel-rules-Late-Entries-valid?fbclid=IwAR12otgNAoz8yLW1rcEXJTHyGh05iZsAtdQ7IqbwC2OdI6loSj64_cRMx0M

America's Cup: Doubt over Malta Challenge continuance in Cup

The Challenger of Record and the Defender had already reached a settlement agreement under which the validity of the Challenges was accepted and issued a Protocol amendment allowing for the Late Entry to be paid by deferred instalments. However, despite this collaborative agreement, the New York Yacht Club elected to continue to pursue the case. This anti-competitive action has caused further delays and uncertainty for the teams and frustrated the Challenger of Record and the Defender who have been working together in the best interests of the event.

As a result of the delay there are now concerns as to the likelihood of the Maltese Malta Altus Challenge being able to continue. However, the Challenger of Record and the Defender continue to work with DutchSail and Stars & Stripes to enable them to make the start line in Auckland in 2021.

The Panel also found that the payment of entry fees is a condition to their being able to race in the America’s Cup not a condition of their being an accepted Challenger meaning that Entry fees have only to be paid before the first race of the competition.

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Wait, so does ANYBODY have to pay their fees before the race?  That is a long way off.  What is AC doing for money in the meantime?

Those who paid will be pissed?

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Five challengers then.

Fuck the New York Yacht Club history repeating itself over and over again.

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1 hour ago, NZL4EVER said:

Five challengers then.

Fuck the New York Yacht Club history repeating itself over and over again.

They might be feeling less charitable towards a team that is likely able to skirt the nationality rules that have to a larger extent encumbered the other teams including Dutch and S&S...

It would have been good to have another entry, but it would have sucked more for any team who losses to Malta, and sucked even more if they won LV and eventually AC... shades of 2003...

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On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 1:29 AM, NZL4EVER said:

Five challengers then.

Fuck the New York Yacht Club history repeating itself over and over again.

The Dutch Team is on the ropes as well I think. Malta is all but OUT. They might confirm their withdrawal on March 31st.

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:
 

I'd say that's a bad case of premature ejac..... er, speculation.  Someone's been paying too much attention to Dicko.   That said, it's pretty much impossible to believe all three will make it here.

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13 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

I'd say that's a bad case of premature ejac..... er, speculation.  Someone's been paying too much attention to Dicko.   That said, it's pretty much impossible to believe all three will make it here.

I don't think it's just speculation.

Look, this is not all about paying the Entry Fees. This is also about having the Financial Resources to built such a radical, sophisticated Boat and neither S & S nor Malta or Dutchsail have the Financial Committment to continue or get on the Start Line. Why do you think S & S stopped building in Michigan? Cuz they don't have the Money to pay their Boatbuilders and Designers.

That rebuttal Statement by Emirates Team New Zealand smells DESPERATION to me delaying the unavoidable.

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Why did Dickson repeatedly refer to "Team New Zealand" rather than "Emirates Team New Zealand"? I wonder how happy the team's major sponsor is to be omitted from the name.

I wonder what the response would be if they talked only of "the Emirates Team" in their press releases. ;-)

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31 minutes ago, RobG said:

Why did Dickson repeatedly refer to "Team New Zealand" rather than "Emirates Team New Zealand"?

Probably need to ask Dicko? Why would anyone in here know why Dicko said it?

 

32 minutes ago, RobG said:

I wonder how happy the team's major sponsor is to be omitted from the name.

Getting a bit desperate don't you think at trying to sling mud at ETNZ?

 

As for the other contention from arsehat4ever, that the reason the late comers are dropping out is that the new boat is too expensive. Well that's just crap. The AC has always been expensive, regardless of the rule - there is no doing it on the cheap and being competitive. A stupid comment from another idiot desperate to sling shit at NZ.

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Getting a bit desperate don't you think at trying to sling mud at ETNZ?

Not at all, I just wonder at his motivation for omitting the "E" in "ETNZ", and not just once. Does he have issues with Emirates as a sponsor? He would likely be upset if Emirates dropped New Zealand from the name when speaking to reporters, so why does he feel it's OK to drop "Emirates"?

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22 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

As for the other contention from arsehat4ever, that the reason the late comers are dropping out is that the new boat is too expensive. Well that's just crap. The AC has always been expensive, regardless of the rule - there is no doing it on the cheap and being competitive. A stupid comment from another idiot desperate to sling shit at NZ.

Really? Of Course the Boat is the Reason Teams are withdrawing you little arse. Groupama Team France competed with a 25M US$ Prize Tag, the lowest Budget during AC 35 and that's how it should be to give Start Up Teams a chance to compete.

ETNZ/LR with their radical Design have pushed well beyond that. No wonder Teams are desperately struggle to secure financial funding. Simeon Tienpont of the Dutchsail Campaign said last week quote "Yes, you can pay the Registration/Entry Fee but with no boat and no financial security it doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

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8 minutes ago, RobG said:

Not at all, I just wonder at his motivation for omitting the "E" in "ETNZ", and not just once. Does he have issues with Emirates as a sponsor? He would likely be upset if Emirates dropped New Zealand from the name when speaking to reporters, so why does he feel it's OK to drop "Emirates"?

I’m guessing just plain old habit. Even the main thread for ETNZ here is titled “Team New Zealand.”  If you’re not on the payroll, you’re hardly obligated to worry about pleasing sponsors. 

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39 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

No, it wasn't April Fools. The NZ Media Reports came out Tuesday Evening which is April 2nd.

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24 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No, it wasn't April Fools. The NZ Media Reports came out Tuesday Evening which is April 2nd.

April 1st everywhere else.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Really? Of Course the Boat is the Reason Teams are withdrawing you little arse. Groupama Team France competed with a 25M US$ Prize Tag, the lowest Budget during AC 35 and that's how it should be to give Start Up Teams a chance to compete.

ETNZ/LR with their radical Design have pushed well beyond that. No wonder Teams are desperately struggle to secure financial funding. Simeon Tienpont of the Dutchsail Campaign said last week quote "Yes, you can pay the Registration/Entry Fee but with no boat and no financial security it doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

All this talk of teams desperately struggling to find funding, none of you gave a f**k when ETNZ were in the same position.

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

April 1st everywhere else.

The Herald Report came out at 6.56pm NZ Time April 2nd and except for the US West Coast everyone was already on April 2nd you little knee jerk & whiny child.

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8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

All this talk of teams desperately struggling to find funding, none of you gave a f**k when ETNZ were in the same position.

Bottom Line is this:

All 3 Late Entries are a HOAX, a ploy by Emirates Team New Zealand to gain a $NZ 150M cash infusion by Auckland City Council for their Defense. These Challengers ain't real and you know it.

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Herald Report came out at 6.56pm NZ Time April 2nd and except for the US West Coast everyone was already on April 2nd you little knee jerk & whiny child.

Haha you're the one whining about costs you fucking crybaby!

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Bottom Line is this:

All 3 Late Entries are a HOAX, a ploy by Emirates Team New Zealand to gain a $NZ 150M cash infusion by Auckland City Council for their Defense. These Challengers ain't real and you know it.

AN66SAzuY-OBE8V-nVVvy5uX-4pId5WabnLczaic

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Bottom Line is this:

All 3 Late Entries are a HOAX, a ploy by Emirates Team New Zealand to gain a $NZ 150M cash infusion by Auckland City Council for their Defense. These Challengers ain't real and you know it.

Nail on the head

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America's Cup disaster: Three teams set to withdraw

Newshub understands half the boats challenging for the America's Cup will not make it to the start line in Auckland in 2021.

All three teams that filed late entries have failed to get enough money together to stage a challenge.

It leaves Emirates Team New Zealand facing the prospect of losing millions of dollars, with its dreams of up to eight super-sized mono-hulls flying over the Waitematā now dead in the water.

Multiple sources have told Newshub three of the declared challengers won't make it to Auckland.

"It is not surprising that some of the challenges aren't going to make it to the start line," said veteran America's Cup skipper Chris Dickson.

Under its obligation, it must deliver at least three challengers. In return, the Government has pledged $136.5 million, while Auckland Council will gift $113 million for infrastructure.

That leaves:

  • - Luna Rosa, the challenger of record;
  • - INEOS Team UK, backed by Sir Ben Ainslie;
  • - American Magic, from the New York Yacht Club.

https://www.msn.com/g00/en-nz/news/other/americas-cup-disaster-half-the-line-up-set-to-withdraw/ar-BBVvKDO?i10c.ua=2&i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNhLw%3d%3d&i10c.dv=17

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https://www.americascup.com/en/news/246_STARS-STRIPES-TEAM-USA-CONFIRM-THEIR-COMMITMENT-TO-THE-36TH-AMERICAS-CUP?fbclid=IwAR3sc2d1D_sx9P0omdODdU_sOKF2rN_JXn45-yt9uh4J5dSgbspUMBq8R1U

Long Beach Yacht Club’s Challenge for the 36th America’s Cup presented by Prada, Stars + Stripes USA, has not withdrawn from the America’s Cup and has no plans to do so. In addition to continuing its preparations for AC36, the Stars + Stripes team is racing this week in the 55th Congressional Cup hosted by Long Beach Yacht Club.  Racing alongside team co-founder Taylor Canfield as part of his co-ed team will be Sally Barkow, George Peet, Jesse Fielding, Ben Bardwell, and Stars + Stripes team member Mike Buckley as tactician.

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16 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Herald Report came out at 6.56pm NZ Time April 2nd and except for the US West Coast everyone was already on April 2nd you little knee jerk & whiny child.

That’s fucking funny coming from you, one of the biggest whining shits in this place. Though still a complete child as well I hasten to add. 

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And who was foolish enough to believe that all the entries were going to make it to the start line? 

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Royal Malta Yacht Club needs urgent help to count the mountain of loot it has amassed for the forthcoming Americas Cup Challenge.

 

5961A367-2598-4C9D-9018-E8D4B6069875.thumb.png.6b5f2b52d09f96d892cc2306739827bb.png

 

 

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1 minute ago, Priscilla said:

Royal Malta Yacht Club needs urgent help to count the mountain of loot it has amassed for the forthcoming Americas Cup Challenge.

 

5961A367-2598-4C9D-9018-E8D4B6069875.thumb.png.6b5f2b52d09f96d892cc2306739827bb.png

 

 

As I said in another Thread Priscilla this is ridiculous from them. They have NO Team, NO Boat Building Facilities whatsoever. As Sail World/NZ Writer Gladwell mentioned. They need to start building soon (May or early June).

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21 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Groupama Team France competed with a 25M US$ Prize Tag

Yeah, and they were the first team knocked out - chronically underfunded, they said it themselves. There was a reason why Frank Cammas looked stressed out. He had no spare cash for cocaine, hookers, and anal lube - essential elements in any French AC campaign.

21 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

that's how it should be to give Start Up Teams a chance to compete.

$25 million - you're fuckin dreaming. No one has or ever will win the cup with that miserable amount of dosh. I know Germans are tight fisted wankers, but where do you get these ridiculous notions?

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

As I said in another Thread Priscilla this is ridiculous from them. They have NO Team, NO Boat Building Facilities whatsoever. As Sail World/NZ Writer Gladwell mentioned. They need to start building soon (May or early June).

Bugger me they do April Fools Day in Malta too.

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Despite what creepy Richard Gladwell says about Dutchsail & Altus this Article here says otherwise:

https://t.co/6ps4Z51wtp

Dutchsail Skipper Simeon Tienpont is being quoted:

“We have to get down to work with the boat and the team,” Tienpont said. “We cannot delay any longer. We need to take the water.”

Translation: They don't have the Funds to hire Designers, Boatbuilders or Sailors. From what I am hearing it can take up to 9 months to built an AC 75 Class Race Boat hence you have to start next month (May) to launch in February 2020 to get ready for Racing in Cagliari starting April.

Bottom Line:

April is make or break for Dutchsail & Altus. If they don't have the funds at the end of the month their Challenges are dead.

 

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39 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Despite what creepy Richard Gladwell says about Dutchsail & Altus this Article here says otherwise:

https://t.co/6ps4Z51wtp

Dutchsail Skipper Simeon Tienpont is being quoted:

“We have to get down to work with the boat and the team,” Tienpont said. “We cannot delay any longer. We need to take the water.”

Translation: They don't have the Funds to hire Designers, Boatbuilders or Sailors. From what I am hearing it can take up to 9 months to built an AC 75 Class Race Boat hence you have to start next month (May) to launch in February 2020 to get ready for Racing in Cagliari starting April.

Bottom Line:

April is make or break for Dutchsail & Altus. If they don't have the funds at the end of the month their Challenges are dead.

 

Which is something we already knew, so don't act like this article says anything different than what everyone else (including Gladwell) has already said. You can call Gladwell all the insults your stupid little brain can think of, but at the end of the day, he's saying exactly the same thing...that these 2 teams are short of time and money, something everyone agrees with. However, they have until the end of the month to find the necessary funding.

 

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One wonders what their hot prospect$ are waiting for (to fork over the cash) given time is of the essence.  To be sure the other struggling team quits? That might not end well. 

Or maybe they are waiting for me to hit a big Powerball and donate $200m, provided it's tax deductible.  But I'd rather toss $25m to S+S for the guest racer seat.

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Meanwhile......anyone have one if those Musto vests?      Similar to big wave surf gear with inflatable bladder & mini air cartridge?

Bucko looks ready.   Damn.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Which is something we already knew, so don't act like this article says anything different than what everyone else (including Gladwell) has already said. You can call Gladwell all the insults your stupid little brain can think of, but at the end of the day, he's saying exactly the same thing...that these 2 teams are short of time and money, something everyone agrees with. However, they have until the end of the month to find the necessary funding.

 

Wrong, Gladwell said something in the sense of "Dutch is committed being in". Vastly different from this Article.

As far as the Altus Challenge is concerned their continuous silence basically since the Announcement that they were accepted looks ominous to me.

At least Dutchsail is trying to get going. Altus not so much these Days.

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26 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Wrong, Gladwell said something in the sense of "Dutch is committed being in". Vastly different from this Article.

As far as the Altus Challenge is concerned their continuous silence basically since the Announcement that they were accepted looks ominous to me.

At least Dutchsail is trying to get going. Altus not so much these Days.

Who cares? ETNZ have already stated they don't expect all of the challengers to be on the start line in 2021. The Dutch themselves have said they are committed to being in, they just require the funding. They wouldn't be looking for funding and wanting to start building a boat next month if they weren't committed to being in.

If the article says "The Dutch have confirmed their withdrawal from the Americas Cup" then it is mistaken.

You seem to be hung up on Altus these days. Altus seems to be your "Hang my hat on" topic at the moment like if Altus doesn't make it the event will be some kind of disaster. Realistically, if anyone is going to withdraw, it will be Altus, but it won't harm the event at all, as it won't be entirely unexpected.

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The Maltese challenge made this AC interesting for me, at least at this point in time. OTOH, knowing Malta, I always knew that it's megalomania at best and a scam at worst.
Nevertheless I enjoy them being around (sort of) while it lasts. 

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8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Who cares? ETNZ have already stated they don't expect all of the challengers to be on the start line in 2021. The Dutch themselves have said they are committed to being in, they just require the funding. They wouldn't be looking for funding and wanting to start building a boat next month if they weren't committed to being in.

If the article says "The Dutch have confirmed their withdrawal from the Americas Cup" then it is mistaken.

You seem to be hung up on Altus these days. Altus seems to be your "Hang my hat on" topic at the moment like if Altus doesn't make it the event will be some kind of disaster. Realistically, if anyone is going to withdraw, it will be Altus, but it won't harm the event at all, as it won't be entirely unexpected.

It's not just about Altus. It's also about ETNZ sharing a Design and getting paid for which IMO is not in the spirit of the America's Cup inevitably speeding up the Late Entries. AmericanMagic ain't happy with that and neither are Luna Rossa and INEOS. The 3 other "Super Teams" worked their butt off to gain an Advantage over the Late Challengers and it could be all for naught.

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7 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It's not just about Altus. It's also about ETNZ sharing a Design and getting paid for which IMO is not in the spirit of the America's Cup inevitably speeding up the Late Entries. AmericanMagic ain't happy with that and neither are Luna Rossa and INEOS. The 3 other "Super Teams" worked their butt off to gain an Advantage over the Late Challengers and it could be all for naught.

The spirit of the Americas Cup was always to promote friendly competiton between nations, which is what they are doing. 

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16 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The spirit of the Americas Cup was always to promote friendly competiton between nations, which is what they are doing. 

How is that friendly when you speed up a Late Challenge over an existing good Challenger who worked for the last 18 months to gain an Advantage. That is not friendly at all.

You know what: I absolutely hate the "Double Standard" you are doing here. When OTUSA shared a Design with SBTJ you were ranting all over the place over it here. When NZ does it, it's ok.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

 the spirit of the America's Cup 

you know that this term doesn't have any meaning at all, right?

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51 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

friendly competition 

And you know that this has no meaning either, right?  

 

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It's the "between nations" part that has been overtaken by events to the point that it has dropped below the horizon.

Cheers,

Earl

 

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

How is that friendly when you speed up a Late Challenge over an existing good Challenger who worked for the last 18 months to gain an Advantage. That is not friendly at all.

You know what: I absolutely hate the "Double Standard" you are doing here. When OTUSA shared a Design with SBTJ you were ranting all over the place over it here. When NZ does it, it's ok.

What you fail to realise is, its not the same thing. Oracle and Japan were the same team, they even shared the same space on the dock in Bermuda. They had the same sponsors, the same spot on the dock, and when Oracle folded, so did Japan.

Obviously, ETNZ isn't helping those guys the same way Oracle were. If they were there would be no financial concerns now would there? 

There is no double standard here. It was Defender and Challenger working together to assist the Defender in retaining the cup. The AC is a "Challenge trophy". The minute Oracle worked as closely as they did with Japan, they violated that "Spirit".

Personally, I don't care about the spirit of the AC. It has had no spirit for a long time now. Its about who wins and who loses. You do what you feel you have to, to win. But like anything, if you're going to bend or break rules, karma will catch up to you. And it seems it caught up to Oracle.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you know that this term doesn't have any meaning at all, right?

Yep, I do realise that. The other guy obviously doesn't, or does, depending on what day of the week it is.

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The other guy seems particularly agenda-driven, so mostly ignored.

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23 minutes ago, Earl Boebert said:

It's the "between nations" part that has been overtaken by events to the point that it has dropped below the horizon.

Cheers,

Earl

 

I was going to say something but Earl did it better. 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you know that this term doesn't have any meaning at all, right?

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

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28 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

They're not real challengers, so you don't have to worry.

Like 70% of the competitors at almost every Cup, they're just there so their resume can say "America's Cup Sailor/CEO/Designer/Rigger/Communications staffer/Logistics Supervisor/etc."

The event only lets them in because they have value to the sponsors and venue, and provide human interest stories to balance out the official line coming from the drab, boring top-end teams.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The other guy seems particularly agenda-driven, so mostly ignored.

Sadly the agendas are so impulsive, varied, confused and contradictory that it doesn't even pass as the worst form of whack-a-mole...

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

Agreed. If the boat is so difficult the defender needs to sell designs to help teams then it is a fuck up. If the defender is so hard up for cash it needs to sell design information it is also a fuck up.

Either way, it is wrong in my eyes. Not as bad as Oracle and the 'Jap' team, but not that far off.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

So Stars n Stripes is okay? Because they did the same thing.

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26 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Agreed. If the boat is so difficult the defender needs to sell designs to help teams then it is a fuck up. If the defender is so hard up for cash it needs to sell design information it is also a fuck up.

Either way, it is wrong in my eyes. Not as bad as Oracle and the 'Jap' team, but not that far off.

^^Sarcasm?

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I cannot for the life of me understand why ETNZ put defense, challengers, and one-design elements under a single tent, with the risk of giving the appearance of conflict of interest. [Note to trolls: please observe the use of the term "appearance." I have neither the means nor the desire to assess whether such conflict exists in fact.]

It's not like people haven't solved the problem of competitors pursuing a joint objective before. The one I most familiar with was the previous incarnation of ARINC, nee "Aeronautical Radio," which was jointly owned by competing airlines. It seems so simple and obvious to put the development and intellectual property of the one-design technology into an independent, jointly-owned entity that operated at arms length from each competitor that I can't comprehend why ETNZ didn't do it.

Cheers,

Earl

 

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10 minutes ago, Earl Boebert said:

It seems so simple and obvious to put the development and intellectual property of the one-design technology into an independent, jointly-owned entity that operated at arms length from each competitor that I can't comprehend why ETNZ didn't do it.

The Defender wrote the rule so ultimately they're responsible for getting the one design elements to the challenging teams. When LR messed up the canting device, the Defender stepped in and resolved it in an expeditious manner. Having that managed by an independent body would have likely led to delays and infighting, and legal liability issues. The lack of certainty about challenger numbers also diminishes the viability of a jointly owned entity. 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

^^Sarcasm?

Not by me. Supplying designs is wrong. Don’t care among what teams, it is wrong. That it is the defender just makes it more wrong in my eyes.

If the boat too complicated to be a reasonable build for a new team, then you should accept that there will be very limited challengers. If it is then decided that selling design/plans to anyone that wants to join in, just shows a lack of foresight. 

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51 minutes ago, Earl Boebert said:

I cannot for the life of me understand why ETNZ put defense, challengers, and one-design elements under a single tent, with the risk of giving the appearance of conflict of interest. [Note to trolls: please observe the use of the term "appearance." I have neither the means nor the desire to assess whether such conflict exists in fact.]

It's not like people haven't solved the problem of competitors pursuing a joint objective before. The one I most familiar with was the previous incarnation of ARINC, nee "Aeronautical Radio," which was jointly owned by competing airlines. It seems so simple and obvious to put the development and intellectual property of the one-design technology into an independent, jointly-owned entity that operated at arms length from each competitor that I can't comprehend why ETNZ didn't do it.

Cheers,

Earl

 

Agree, optics look wrong no matter how hard you spin it. How hard would it have been to have had a joint group, funded by all teams, to do the one design parts. 

If TNZ go on to win there is likely to always be doubts raised about the advantage of being first in the know about lots design parts. Especially as things fail and get re-designed. 

Not saying either way, just a look that could have been dodged from the beginning. 

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5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

just shows a lack of foresight. 

Okay, please tell us what your vision for the AC is, since you've been scathingly critical of the proposed design.

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10 minutes ago, Gissie said:

joint group, funded by all teams, to do the one design parts. 

Which teams? The ones that begun? Or the ones that make to the actual AC? Would you have development wait until all the teams are rostered in and paid? What if you need more money for dev and some of the teams balk, or just plain can't afford to chip in?

None of this seems easy...

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