Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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24 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No, it wasn't April Fools. The NZ Media Reports came out Tuesday Evening which is April 2nd.

April 1st everywhere else.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Really? Of Course the Boat is the Reason Teams are withdrawing you little arse. Groupama Team France competed with a 25M US$ Prize Tag, the lowest Budget during AC 35 and that's how it should be to give Start Up Teams a chance to compete.

ETNZ/LR with their radical Design have pushed well beyond that. No wonder Teams are desperately struggle to secure financial funding. Simeon Tienpont of the Dutchsail Campaign said last week quote "Yes, you can pay the Registration/Entry Fee but with no boat and no financial security it doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

All this talk of teams desperately struggling to find funding, none of you gave a f**k when ETNZ were in the same position.

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Herald Report came out at 6.56pm NZ Time April 2nd and except for the US West Coast everyone was already on April 2nd you little knee jerk & whiny child.

Haha you're the one whining about costs you fucking crybaby!

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Bottom Line is this:

All 3 Late Entries are a HOAX, a ploy by Emirates Team New Zealand to gain a $NZ 150M cash infusion by Auckland City Council for their Defense. These Challengers ain't real and you know it.

AN66SAzuY-OBE8V-nVVvy5uX-4pId5WabnLczaic

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Bottom Line is this:

All 3 Late Entries are a HOAX, a ploy by Emirates Team New Zealand to gain a $NZ 150M cash infusion by Auckland City Council for their Defense. These Challengers ain't real and you know it.

Nail on the head

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America's Cup disaster: Three teams set to withdraw

Newshub understands half the boats challenging for the America's Cup will not make it to the start line in Auckland in 2021.

All three teams that filed late entries have failed to get enough money together to stage a challenge.

It leaves Emirates Team New Zealand facing the prospect of losing millions of dollars, with its dreams of up to eight super-sized mono-hulls flying over the Waitematā now dead in the water.

Multiple sources have told Newshub three of the declared challengers won't make it to Auckland.

"It is not surprising that some of the challenges aren't going to make it to the start line," said veteran America's Cup skipper Chris Dickson.

Under its obligation, it must deliver at least three challengers. In return, the Government has pledged $136.5 million, while Auckland Council will gift $113 million for infrastructure.

That leaves:

  • - Luna Rosa, the challenger of record;
  • - INEOS Team UK, backed by Sir Ben Ainslie;
  • - American Magic, from the New York Yacht Club.

https://www.msn.com/g00/en-nz/news/other/americas-cup-disaster-half-the-line-up-set-to-withdraw/ar-BBVvKDO?i10c.ua=2&i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNhLw%3d%3d&i10c.dv=17

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https://www.americascup.com/en/news/246_STARS-STRIPES-TEAM-USA-CONFIRM-THEIR-COMMITMENT-TO-THE-36TH-AMERICAS-CUP?fbclid=IwAR3sc2d1D_sx9P0omdODdU_sOKF2rN_JXn45-yt9uh4J5dSgbspUMBq8R1U

Long Beach Yacht Club’s Challenge for the 36th America’s Cup presented by Prada, Stars + Stripes USA, has not withdrawn from the America’s Cup and has no plans to do so. In addition to continuing its preparations for AC36, the Stars + Stripes team is racing this week in the 55th Congressional Cup hosted by Long Beach Yacht Club.  Racing alongside team co-founder Taylor Canfield as part of his co-ed team will be Sally Barkow, George Peet, Jesse Fielding, Ben Bardwell, and Stars + Stripes team member Mike Buckley as tactician.

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16 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Herald Report came out at 6.56pm NZ Time April 2nd and except for the US West Coast everyone was already on April 2nd you little knee jerk & whiny child.

That’s fucking funny coming from you, one of the biggest whining shits in this place. Though still a complete child as well I hasten to add. 

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And who was foolish enough to believe that all the entries were going to make it to the start line? 

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Royal Malta Yacht Club needs urgent help to count the mountain of loot it has amassed for the forthcoming Americas Cup Challenge.

 

5961A367-2598-4C9D-9018-E8D4B6069875.thumb.png.6b5f2b52d09f96d892cc2306739827bb.png

 

 

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21 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Groupama Team France competed with a 25M US$ Prize Tag

Yeah, and they were the first team knocked out - chronically underfunded, they said it themselves. There was a reason why Frank Cammas looked stressed out. He had no spare cash for cocaine, hookers, and anal lube - essential elements in any French AC campaign.

21 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

that's how it should be to give Start Up Teams a chance to compete.

$25 million - you're fuckin dreaming. No one has or ever will win the cup with that miserable amount of dosh. I know Germans are tight fisted wankers, but where do you get these ridiculous notions?

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

As I said in another Thread Priscilla this is ridiculous from them. They have NO Team, NO Boat Building Facilities whatsoever. As Sail World/NZ Writer Gladwell mentioned. They need to start building soon (May or early June).

Bugger me they do April Fools Day in Malta too.

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39 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Despite what creepy Richard Gladwell says about Dutchsail & Altus this Article here says otherwise:

https://t.co/6ps4Z51wtp

Dutchsail Skipper Simeon Tienpont is being quoted:

“We have to get down to work with the boat and the team,” Tienpont said. “We cannot delay any longer. We need to take the water.”

Translation: They don't have the Funds to hire Designers, Boatbuilders or Sailors. From what I am hearing it can take up to 9 months to built an AC 75 Class Race Boat hence you have to start next month (May) to launch in February 2020 to get ready for Racing in Cagliari starting April.

Bottom Line:

April is make or break for Dutchsail & Altus. If they don't have the funds at the end of the month their Challenges are dead.

 

Which is something we already knew, so don't act like this article says anything different than what everyone else (including Gladwell) has already said. You can call Gladwell all the insults your stupid little brain can think of, but at the end of the day, he's saying exactly the same thing...that these 2 teams are short of time and money, something everyone agrees with. However, they have until the end of the month to find the necessary funding.

 

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One wonders what their hot prospect$ are waiting for (to fork over the cash) given time is of the essence.  To be sure the other struggling team quits? That might not end well. 

Or maybe they are waiting for me to hit a big Powerball and donate $200m, provided it's tax deductible.  But I'd rather toss $25m to S+S for the guest racer seat.

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Meanwhile......anyone have one if those Musto vests?      Similar to big wave surf gear with inflatable bladder & mini air cartridge?

Bucko looks ready.   Damn.

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26 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Wrong, Gladwell said something in the sense of "Dutch is committed being in". Vastly different from this Article.

As far as the Altus Challenge is concerned their continuous silence basically since the Announcement that they were accepted looks ominous to me.

At least Dutchsail is trying to get going. Altus not so much these Days.

Who cares? ETNZ have already stated they don't expect all of the challengers to be on the start line in 2021. The Dutch themselves have said they are committed to being in, they just require the funding. They wouldn't be looking for funding and wanting to start building a boat next month if they weren't committed to being in.

If the article says "The Dutch have confirmed their withdrawal from the Americas Cup" then it is mistaken.

You seem to be hung up on Altus these days. Altus seems to be your "Hang my hat on" topic at the moment like if Altus doesn't make it the event will be some kind of disaster. Realistically, if anyone is going to withdraw, it will be Altus, but it won't harm the event at all, as it won't be entirely unexpected.

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The Maltese challenge made this AC interesting for me, at least at this point in time. OTOH, knowing Malta, I always knew that it's megalomania at best and a scam at worst.
Nevertheless I enjoy them being around (sort of) while it lasts. 

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7 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It's not just about Altus. It's also about ETNZ sharing a Design and getting paid for which IMO is not in the spirit of the America's Cup inevitably speeding up the Late Entries. AmericanMagic ain't happy with that and neither are Luna Rossa and INEOS. The 3 other "Super Teams" worked their butt off to gain an Advantage over the Late Challengers and it could be all for naught.

The spirit of the Americas Cup was always to promote friendly competiton between nations, which is what they are doing. 

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

 the spirit of the America's Cup 

you know that this term doesn't have any meaning at all, right?

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51 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

friendly competition 

And you know that this has no meaning either, right?  

 

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It's the "between nations" part that has been overtaken by events to the point that it has dropped below the horizon.

Cheers,

Earl

 

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

How is that friendly when you speed up a Late Challenge over an existing good Challenger who worked for the last 18 months to gain an Advantage. That is not friendly at all.

You know what: I absolutely hate the "Double Standard" you are doing here. When OTUSA shared a Design with SBTJ you were ranting all over the place over it here. When NZ does it, it's ok.

What you fail to realise is, its not the same thing. Oracle and Japan were the same team, they even shared the same space on the dock in Bermuda. They had the same sponsors, the same spot on the dock, and when Oracle folded, so did Japan.

Obviously, ETNZ isn't helping those guys the same way Oracle were. If they were there would be no financial concerns now would there? 

There is no double standard here. It was Defender and Challenger working together to assist the Defender in retaining the cup. The AC is a "Challenge trophy". The minute Oracle worked as closely as they did with Japan, they violated that "Spirit".

Personally, I don't care about the spirit of the AC. It has had no spirit for a long time now. Its about who wins and who loses. You do what you feel you have to, to win. But like anything, if you're going to bend or break rules, karma will catch up to you. And it seems it caught up to Oracle.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you know that this term doesn't have any meaning at all, right?

Yep, I do realise that. The other guy obviously doesn't, or does, depending on what day of the week it is.

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The other guy seems particularly agenda-driven, so mostly ignored.

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23 minutes ago, Earl Boebert said:

It's the "between nations" part that has been overtaken by events to the point that it has dropped below the horizon.

Cheers,

Earl

 

I was going to say something but Earl did it better. 

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28 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

They're not real challengers, so you don't have to worry.

Like 70% of the competitors at almost every Cup, they're just there so their resume can say "America's Cup Sailor/CEO/Designer/Rigger/Communications staffer/Logistics Supervisor/etc."

The event only lets them in because they have value to the sponsors and venue, and provide human interest stories to balance out the official line coming from the drab, boring top-end teams.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The other guy seems particularly agenda-driven, so mostly ignored.

Sadly the agendas are so impulsive, varied, confused and contradictory that it doesn't even pass as the worst form of whack-a-mole...

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

Agreed. If the boat is so difficult the defender needs to sell designs to help teams then it is a fuck up. If the defender is so hard up for cash it needs to sell design information it is also a fuck up.

Either way, it is wrong in my eyes. Not as bad as Oracle and the 'Jap' team, but not that far off.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I just don't like Design being shared between a Challenger and the Defender. Is that so difficult to understand? I hope Dutch & Altus don't make it.

So Stars n Stripes is okay? Because they did the same thing.

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26 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Agreed. If the boat is so difficult the defender needs to sell designs to help teams then it is a fuck up. If the defender is so hard up for cash it needs to sell design information it is also a fuck up.

Either way, it is wrong in my eyes. Not as bad as Oracle and the 'Jap' team, but not that far off.

^^Sarcasm?

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I cannot for the life of me understand why ETNZ put defense, challengers, and one-design elements under a single tent, with the risk of giving the appearance of conflict of interest. [Note to trolls: please observe the use of the term "appearance." I have neither the means nor the desire to assess whether such conflict exists in fact.]

It's not like people haven't solved the problem of competitors pursuing a joint objective before. The one I most familiar with was the previous incarnation of ARINC, nee "Aeronautical Radio," which was jointly owned by competing airlines. It seems so simple and obvious to put the development and intellectual property of the one-design technology into an independent, jointly-owned entity that operated at arms length from each competitor that I can't comprehend why ETNZ didn't do it.

Cheers,

Earl

 

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10 minutes ago, Earl Boebert said:

It seems so simple and obvious to put the development and intellectual property of the one-design technology into an independent, jointly-owned entity that operated at arms length from each competitor that I can't comprehend why ETNZ didn't do it.

The Defender wrote the rule so ultimately they're responsible for getting the one design elements to the challenging teams. When LR messed up the canting device, the Defender stepped in and resolved it in an expeditious manner. Having that managed by an independent body would have likely led to delays and infighting, and legal liability issues. The lack of certainty about challenger numbers also diminishes the viability of a jointly owned entity. 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

^^Sarcasm?

Not by me. Supplying designs is wrong. Don’t care among what teams, it is wrong. That it is the defender just makes it more wrong in my eyes.

If the boat too complicated to be a reasonable build for a new team, then you should accept that there will be very limited challengers. If it is then decided that selling design/plans to anyone that wants to join in, just shows a lack of foresight. 

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51 minutes ago, Earl Boebert said:

I cannot for the life of me understand why ETNZ put defense, challengers, and one-design elements under a single tent, with the risk of giving the appearance of conflict of interest. [Note to trolls: please observe the use of the term "appearance." I have neither the means nor the desire to assess whether such conflict exists in fact.]

It's not like people haven't solved the problem of competitors pursuing a joint objective before. The one I most familiar with was the previous incarnation of ARINC, nee "Aeronautical Radio," which was jointly owned by competing airlines. It seems so simple and obvious to put the development and intellectual property of the one-design technology into an independent, jointly-owned entity that operated at arms length from each competitor that I can't comprehend why ETNZ didn't do it.

Cheers,

Earl

 

Agree, optics look wrong no matter how hard you spin it. How hard would it have been to have had a joint group, funded by all teams, to do the one design parts. 

If TNZ go on to win there is likely to always be doubts raised about the advantage of being first in the know about lots design parts. Especially as things fail and get re-designed. 

Not saying either way, just a look that could have been dodged from the beginning. 

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5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

just shows a lack of foresight. 

Okay, please tell us what your vision for the AC is, since you've been scathingly critical of the proposed design.

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10 minutes ago, Gissie said:

joint group, funded by all teams, to do the one design parts. 

Which teams? The ones that begun? Or the ones that make to the actual AC? Would you have development wait until all the teams are rostered in and paid? What if you need more money for dev and some of the teams balk, or just plain can't afford to chip in?

None of this seems easy...

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2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

 

None of this seems easy...

Kinda like the internet.   We wanted more & more till it started to consume us.

AC & Big Money, thanks to Uncle Ernie & Larry, have pushed most sailors out of that arena.  

It’s unsustainable at this rate.  This ‘one design’ Cup was going to change that.

Fail.

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8 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Which teams? The ones that begun? Or the ones that make to the actual AC? Would you have development wait until all the teams are rostered in and paid? What if you need more money for dev and some of the teams balk, or just plain can't afford to chip in?

None of this seems easy...

If it is that hard maybe the answer is there should be no communal parts. Make and design your boat. Not part of it, the whole thing. 

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8 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Okay, please tell us what your vision for the AC is, since you've been scathingly critical of the proposed design.

My vision is quiet simple. Design and build your own boat within the agreed design parameters. If the defender can’t afford to do this without selling design info, pick an easier boat. If a challenger can’t afford it without buying design info then go find a sport you can pay for. 

Simple shit really. Nothing to drastic. No buying/selling design info. No standard parts. Design and build your best boat, turn up on the day and try and win a race or three.  

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9 hours ago, rh2600 said:

 Would you have development wait until all the teams are rostered in and paid?

Yes. It's not clear that allowing late entries has generated anything except confusion.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

Design and build your own boat within the agreed design parameters.

The defender puts out a rule. Whether the challengers agree with it is irrelevant. It's never been an "agreed" design.

1 hour ago, Gissie said:

If the defender can’t afford to do this without selling design info, pick an easier boat.

Who says ETNZ are relying on the revenue from selling design packages? A huge assumption on your part, and quite frankly I find your contention horse shit

1 hour ago, Gissie said:

No buying/selling design info. No standard parts.

Collaboration has been around for yonks. LR/ETNZ have been sharing data and development since Valencia. Bertarelli (as defender) even put money into ETNZ because he wanted them at the regatta. This sort of shit has been going on for ages and is not a big deal. The AC50's were loaded with one design parts, yet it was still a good contest.

1 hour ago, Gissie said:

My vision is quiet simple.

Yeah sorry, a bit too simple. You might want a dumbed down AC, but I don't. I love the new design concept. If you can't wrap your brain around it, bad fucking luck, go watch a beach regatta.

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My main takeaway from this clusterfuck of late challengers is what I originally thought:

*If you are challenged to raise and pay entry fees how the fuck are you going to raise money and pay for a boat and team?!?!*

 

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35 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This is not an assumption. It's the TRUTH otherwise ETNZ wouldn't be so desperate getting particularly Dutchsail & Altus to the Start Line and in the same vein calling the New York Yacht Club/AmericanMagic out for "unsportsmanlike behaviour" in their March 15th Press Release when AM totally acted within their rights to pursue the case before the Arbitration Panel. ETNZ/LR are rigging the Protocol to let the Late Teams in.

I wish AM would have taken ETNZ/LR & Arb. Panel Decision to the Courts.

Its not the TRUTH. You wouldn't know what the truth was if it slapped you in the face. The simple fact is, the more teams in the event, the better spectacle it is for the spectators, for the event, for Auckland, for New Zealand, and for Emirates Team NZ.

The problem is relying on billionaires to fund teams for the AC is not sustainable.

And there simply aren't enough billionaires in the world willing to participate in the event.

And you say "Well there are plenty of billionaires who participate in other sailing events" and you'd be correct, the difference is they participate in those events because they can build boats they can sail themselves and actually have a bit of fun while they compete. They can't do that in the AC because the boats simply don't allow for it, therefor there needs to be an avenue for teams who want to participate, to do so without relying on billionaire backing, this is one of those avenues.

The second problem is, there needs to be an avenue for start up teams to make it easier to start from the ground up to make it to the starting line.

Third, all this needs to be done in accordance with the Deed of Gift, as well as the Protocol signed and agreed to by the Defender and the CoR.

To just simply say, if you don't have the money fuck off or ill take you to court is neither productive, nor sustainable.

For the teams who are serious about winning this time, they also need to think about the future, and what a defence might look like for them. If they're going round taking everyone to court to get their way, and discouraging start-up teams participating, a home town defence may not turn out to be the spectacle they want it to be. Larry Ellison found that out the hard way after he dragged the AC through the courts for 2 years.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Saying the America's Cup is commercially sustainable is also wrong.

Billionaires are the best way to fund Teams see Patrizio Bertelli, Hap Fauth, Jim Ratcliffe, Larry Ellison, Ernesto Bertarelli, Onorato (Mascalzone for 2003 & 2007), Paul Allen (Oneworld).

With these type of Boats funding Teams entirely through Commercial Partners is just not possible. ETNZ is the only excemption here.

The AC has to be commercially sustainable. As you've seen with Larry and Ernesto, they do what they want, when they want, and screw anyone else who gets in their way, and if a billionaire loses the cup, and doesn't get his way, he takes his ball and goes home, leaving others to pick up the pieces of an event damaged by the ego of the billionaire who got his ass whooped.

Who's left? Larry's gone, took his billionaire mate Torbjorn with him, Ernesto threw a tantrum and even tried a mutiny on board a race official boat to prevent a race being held, Onorato is, or was facing a rule 69 infringement, if it wasn't for Ainslie, I doubt Ratcliffe would be involved, Hap Fauth and DeVos are both passionate sailors and have been involved in regattas around the world for a long time now, and are backed by one of, if not THE most prestigious club in the AC in the NYYC, but those guys are few and far between now.

Thats the point, this is what the AC needs to be, otherwise the event is dictated by a select group of Billionaires with fragile ego's who aren't afraid to take their ball and go home at the drop of a hat when their feelings get hurt.

 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

 

Thats the point, this is what the AC needs to be, otherwise the event is dictated by a select group of Billionaires with fragile ego's who aren't afraid to take their ball and go home at the drop of a hat when their feelings get hurt.

 

Then why choose a billionaire's boat? I like the boat and that the AC is moving away from the one-design of the last cup, but it seems so much more complicated and expensive than just using TP52's and letting the billionaire's spend like crazy and the S and S's of the world actually compete in the Cup. This cup is more toward the unsustainable than the last cup.

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18 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Then why choose a billionaire's boat? I like the boat and that the AC is moving away from the one-design of the last cup, but it seems so much more complicated and expensive than just using TP52's and letting the billionaire's spend like crazy and the S and S's of the world actually compete in the Cup. This cup is more toward the unsustainable than the last cup.

Its a balance. Watch Daltons interview, he explains why they went with the 75 (even though you probably won't believe him anyway) it was a compromise between going fast and appealing to the new generation, the younger generation which lets be honest, is what ETNZ is now in terms of a sailing crew. They had the youngest sailing crew of all of the teams in Bermuda, so they had to appeal to them, as well as their fans and supporters, but try to keep some semblance of traditionalism, which Dalton also states "Statistically, more sailors sail Monohulls, not Multihulls"

He also explains why they didn't go with the 50's (but you probably don't believe him there either).

No one wants to see boats going 9 or 10 knots if there is an opportunity to at least double those speeds for around the same price tag.

This time around ETNZ is picking up the pieces of a damaged event while trying to also maximise its potential.

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Yes. It's not clear that allowing late entries has generated anything except confusion.

Ignore the late entries - my question still stands - should development only begin once all normal entries are in and paid? 

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28 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You absolutely nailed it here.

If you want a sustainable America's Cup there are two options:

# 1 Use TP52 like you said

No one wants a TP52, if you do, go and watch the 52 Super Series. There are plenty of events to watch the TP52's, so don't act like it would be an option, because you know you'd shit on it because it doesn't go as fast as the AC50's.

OR

# 2 Craft a Class Rule that is similar to the IACC Rule we had from 1992 to 2007.

And what were the team budgets for an IACC campaign from 2003, and 2007? They were astronomical back then, and would be just as astronomical now, so if there is an opportunity to at least double the speeds of an IACC boat, for around the same price tag, I say do it.

These AC 72's (2013) and AC 75's (2021) are too complex, too expensive and not sustainable. The AC 75's will be ready for the museum just like the AC 72's were after this Cup IMO.

Maybe, but given only INEOS remains from the last cycle, I can't see anyone going back to the 50's after this, so if ETNZ or LR, or INEOS win, or possibly even Stars n Stripes, we would be more likely to see the 75, or something similar next time round as well. It will be the F50 that will be destined for the Museum once Larry gets sick of paying for them.

 

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Didn't all the rich people get to BE on their boats up until the 2013 Cup?  IIRC LE even *said* in 2012 interviews that he was going to be on the AC72.

With a monohull after 2021, if there are some younger billionaires maybe they can get on board literally as well as financially. I think the current rules allow guest racers.  Lure them on and sign them up for AC37.  

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42 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This is coming from the same guy who was ranting against commercialism during AC 35 when LE & RC tried to make it as commercially sustainable as they could by bringing down the costs.

As long as the AC has such complex boat classes driving costs through the roof it wouldn't and isn't commercially sustainable. Maybe this will get into your head some Day.

BTW, even Grant Dalton doesn't want it commercially sustainable saying repeatedly "The AC is an elusive Sporting Event not a Beach Event".

Bullshit! I was all for commercialism! Larry and Russell weren't making it commercially sustainable! Larry underwrote a lot of the event himself! as he's done for the ShitGP series. You got sucked in by Russells BS!

The AC has always had, and always will have complex boat classes, the AC50 was no different, as neither is the F50. The only reason those boats exist is because Ellison is paying for them to exist, once he gets sick of it, they'll go the way of Oracle Team USA.

The AC is an Elusive sporting event, but he's made no bones about the expense consistently saying the costs are high, and always will be high, its part of the game, always has been. always will be. Its about managing those costs. End of the day, unless you cap costs (which will never happen) teams will spend what ever they can, and what ever they have to win. Simmer said, if you manage your campaign right, you should run out of money at the same time you run out of time. As we saw last time, a smaller budget managed correctly can be a winning factor.

He has always said that. Last time was no different, and this time will be no different so there is no issue apart from the fake one in your head.

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6 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The Prize Tag to compete in AC 34 (San Francisco) and AC 36 (Auckland) is considerable HIGHER compared to the Prize Tag for AC 30, 31 (Auckland) & AC 32 (Valencia) because the Boats are simply much more expensive, complex to design, to built and to sail. You need a bigger Shore Crew as well. As much as I know American Magic & INEOS TEAM UK have been 150 and 180 People working on the Campaign FULL TIME, maybe even higher.

Is it? Do you actually know how much Larry spent in Auckland in 2003? Do you actually know how much Larry and Ernesto spent in Valencia? Or are you just assuming?

Do you know how many people Ineos and AM have working on their campaigns? Or are these just made up numbers?

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Well, how would you manage those costs then, tell me?

There is a simple solution controlling & managing the costs: Choose a more sustainable Boat. The AC 75 Class proposed by ETNZ/LR aren't sustainable beyond AC 36 and most of the Team Principals & CEO's from the four Superteams Dalton, Bertelli, Hutchinson and Ainslie know that.

I really wish once this Cup Cycle is over no matter who wins among these 4 Teams that these four Gentleman would sit down on one table, sharing their ideas how to proceed forward BUT of course that's probably only a dream by me and it will never happen cuz we have too many egos involved.

Ask Grant Dalton, he managed to do it last time.

But it seems supplying parts and cutting design team costs may be a good way to do it. Its just you want costs to be cut, but not the way they're doing it.

You don't get it! It doesn't matter what boat is chosen, it could be an Opti, or a P-Class, teams will still find an excuse, a reason, and a way to spend what ever they feel they need to, to win. Did Ainslie have to spend as much as he did last time? Probably not, but he did it anyway, and still didn't win! 

Did Tornquist have to spend as much as he did last time? No, but he did it anyway and didn't win either. ETNZ spent what they could/ what they had, but managed them in a way that gave them what they thought was the best chance of winning and did win. Costs are part of the game, some will spend a lot, some won't, some will win, some won't. But just because you have a huge budget, doesn't mean you will win, and just because you have a tiny budget, doesn't mean you will lose.

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4 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Mate, I think you're pretty naive to think that Larry spent more money in Auckland 2003 compared to San Francisco 2013.

OTUSA had about 200 People involved for AC 34 in San Francisco. Given that the AC 75's are in similar size and similar complex to maintain it's not too far fetched to think that Ineos & AM working in a similar ballpark given the Budgets they have.

I didn't say that, I want you to back up your statement you made.

And given a lot of the parts are one design, and teams don't need to spend time and resources to design them, its not too far fetched to think that a lot of the costs are contained. I don't know what anyone is spending, and neither do you, but you're the one making bold statements you can't back up.

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11 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

It's all about Maintainance with these Boats. You need a lot of people for that. It's not like a Hamburger Franchise from McDonald's

Its about maintenance with any boat! It doesn't matter whether its an AC72, an AC50, an AC75, an F50, or an IACC class boat, they all require maintenance, and they all require a lot of people! WTF!? 

You are fast running out of arguments, and now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

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Does anyone have an informed guestimate of when the arms will be delivered?

1 month

2 months

3 months?

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15 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Nonsense. The AC 50 required less people for Maintenance compared to the AC 72 or the new AC 75.

Less People = Less Costs.

Which is why One design and supplied parts works right? Thanks for proving my point.

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21 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You are very ill-informed when it comes to the British Challenge of Ben Ainslie. Let me tell you this: Ben wanted his AC 36 Campaign run by a 80-90% commercially driven Team similar to Emirates Team New Zealand. That was his goal when his AC 35 Campaign in Bermuda 2017 ended. Land Rover was still onboard and so were his other Partners.

So, what changed his mind? The Boat!

Ben said in an Interview with CNN's Mainsail's Shirley Robertson in April 2018 that as soon as he saw the new AC 75 Foiling Monohull concept proposed by ETNZ/LR in Nov. 2017 it increased the Prize Tag by 40% from 85M Pounds to 110M Pounds for the Team and he had to look for someone to pay these extra 40%. (That Article I believe is still on the CNN Mainsail Page and if not you can google it and you find similar articles on this subject) Then via a friend he got connected to Jim Ratcliffe who offered to cover the entire cost for his AC 36 Campaign under the conditions that he (Ratcliffe) gets a blank sheet and rename the Team Ineos Team UK insteand of Land Rover BAR. Ben saw his chance and grabbed it and if I were him I probably would have done so too. Why? Ben & the Team can do their Business to design and built a competitive Boat and don't have to worry about funds. From a purely Sporting Point of View Ainslie made the right call. From a PR Point of View he made the wrong call.

Now, don't be naive mate. If someone similar to Ratcliffe came to Grant Dalton in 2014 when the Team was in dire straights and offered him a Deal that way Dalts would have grabbed it with both hands so this notion that Dalton & ETNZ would only challenge with a purely commercial driven Team is just complete nonsene for me.

You mean this interview?

Firstly, Matteo De Nora is the team principle and ultimately its because of him that the team didn't close its doors. Dalton stated that in the final press conference, so they aren't completely commercial team.

For the most part they, are, they do rely heavily on sponsorship to continue, everyone knows that, its just that Dalts is a master at establishing relationships with sponsors and providing them the returns they require.

Your comment about challenging with or without billionaire money is irrelevant because its hypothetical. Its a what if.

 

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5 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The AC 75 isn't OD.

ETNZ/LR have fooled the entire AC Challenger Community for AC 36 that it would be OD. Aside from the Mast Tube and the Foil Arms nothing is OD.

The foil cant system is one design with supplied parts. So the Foil control system, the foil arms and the mast tube is one design, key areas wouldn't you say?

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11 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This Article brings me back to our Late Challengers Stars & Stripes Team USA, Dutchsail and the Altus Challenge.

Reading the little quotes by Ben I'm going to say this: All 3 Late Challengers who are struggling for funding right now would have made it to Bermuda in 2017 without a shadow of a doubt. The increasing costs Ben Ainslie is eluding to have really contributed to the struggles of S & S, Dutch and Altus.

The difference is, they were waiting for someone else to win it. They weren't going to compete as long as Oracle held the Cup.

The article says nothing of the sort! The strategy Ben has decided to adopt is what he is paying for. Wonder what the comparison between Bens budget and ETNZ's budget looks like? Or even the comparison between Bens budget and Stars n Stripes budget is. Bens strategy seems to be to have an enormous budget because he thinks it will win him the Cup. So far that strategy hasn't worked for him, so only time will tell whether that strategy has paid off or not. But it didn't work last time.

Note: The AC75 may be 30% bigger, 30% more powerful, and 30% faster than an AC50 as well. You get what you pay for.

 

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Anybody want to guess how many times Ratliffe is on the boat whilst racing?  

 

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

It didn't work last time because then Land Rover BAR was a 1st Time Challenger. They had to start a Design Team totally from scratch while ETNZ, Artemis and OTUSA had theirs in place so it wasn't a huge shock that their Boat was simply too slow.

No, Ben adopted this strategy not because what he is paying for. He adopted it because he had a 30% increase in the budget BECAUSE of the new Boat Concept and Land Rover & his other Partner didn't have the extra 30% he needed - Period. Maybe this will finally get into your head.

So its a 30% increase, and? The boat is 30% bigger and 30% more powerful, so you get what you pay for. End of the day, Ben could've stayed with his previous partners who were prepared to back him again. He just didn't think they would provide him the budget his strategy required. Whether that strategy pays off is the question. I'm willing to bet that Dutch Sail and Stars n Stripes would jump at the budget Bens previous partners were willing to provide and would be at least half way through the build by now. 

Like I said, its Bens strategy that has seen him require another enormous budget. It didn't work last time, and we'll see if it works this time. 

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Ben's Budget in BDA wasn't that big. 85M Pounds which placed him second behind OTUSA but only slightly above ETNZ who had a huge cash infusion by Bertelli.

Secondly, if Ben had stayed with his old Partners he only could have built one boat and he felt it was necessary to built two boats like ETNZ, LR and AM will do as well. Ainslie isn't the kind of guy who does these kind of things class half full.

"only slightly above ETNZ" Sure, what ever you say. So ETNZ's budget was larger than Artemis Racing? 

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

Yes, it was. You have to account for what Mr. Bertelli gave them as well.

Which was what exactly? again, some bold statements, and clearly contradictory to everything we've heard coming out of the ETNZ camp. Link?

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This is kind of fun to watch the two village idiots play with each other!

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2 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Look, you won't change my Opinion on ETNZ, LR, what happened in BDA, the cost of the new Boat, etc. one bit and I won't change yours. How about giving up! Really, I am tired of talking to you cuz generally speaking of the entire "America's Cup Anarchy Forum" you are clearly the biggest Flip-Flopper here.

Because you keep saying shit thats not even true! Like ETNZ spent more money in Bermuda than Artemis which is clearly bullshit! Maybe stop saying blatant stupid shit cos you dont like someone so you dont make yourself look like an idiot! 

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18 minutes ago, Monkey said:

This is kind of fun to watch the two village idiots play with each other!

And then the class clown cracks a joke and gets...crickets

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So reading all this my takeaway is you need several Team Obnoxious Egomaniac (Cheating?) Billionaire teams.  30% more anything? Shit, how much did crazed, er, determined LE spend on LITIGATION for the 2010 Cup? $250M? More?  

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

So its a 30% increase, and? The boat is 30% bigger and 30% more powerful, so you get what you pay for. End of the day, Ben could've stayed with his previous partners who were prepared to back him again. He just didn't think they would provide him the budget his strategy required. Whether that strategy pays off is the question. I'm willing to bet that Dutch Sail and Stars n Stripes would jump at the budget Bens previous partners were willing to provide and would be at least half way through the build by now. 

Like I said, its Bens strategy that has seen him require another enormous budget. It didn't work last time, and we'll see if it works this time. 

30% bigger, 30% more powerful, 30% more expensive...same speed.   Less agile?  More fragile?   

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 

Note: The AC75 may be 30% bigger, 30% more powerful, and 30% faster than an AC50 as well. You get what you pay for.

 

By this logic the winner of AC 36 should have right to make the cup 30% bigger, 30% more powerful & 30% faster, I suggest hiring the guy that made the statue on the Moscow river, so it could look even more like a caterers’ rented champagne fountain at a working class wedding.

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3 hours ago, Left Shift said:

30% bigger, 30% more powerful, 30% more expensive...same speed.   Less agile?  More fragile?   

Cant get any less agile than the F50. Those things cant even get up on the foils properly.

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When the teams get enough experience to do 100% fly time, what are you gonna do? Critique the paint jobs?  

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

When the teams get enough experience to do 100% fly time, what are you gonna do? Critique the paint jobs?  

I'm almost certain the paint jobs will not reach the level of Roy Liechtenstein's Mermaid or even Black Magic. 

How about two different teams both have red bows and black hulls.

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

When the teams get enough experience to do 100% fly time, what are you gonna do? Critique the paint jobs?  

Given the AC50's were consistently pulling off 100% fly time laps or at least percentages in the high 90's, in 6, 7, 8 knots of breeze, a boat which is supposed to be a generation ahead, re-imagined, redefined blah blah, free from constraints, free from rules, with battery powered systems and dedicated flight controllers, effectively removing the need for grinders, that boat should be easily pulling off dry laps straight out of the box! 

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When the ETNZ AC50 was splashed, how soon were they doing dry laps? Same day?  Was 5 days sailing enough?  

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57 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Given the AC50's were consistently pulling off 100% fly time laps or at least percentages in the high 90's, in 6, 7, 8 knots of breeze,

TNZ would not have been able to sail dry laps in Australia variable winds, even after months of training.

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7 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

TNZ would not have been able to sail dry laps in Australia variable winds, even after months of training.

Word at the time was they were sailing dry laps in Auckland before they left for Bermuda. 

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Word at the time was they were sailing dry laps in Auckland before they left for Bermuda. 

And how long had they been sailing before they left for Bermuda? 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Word at the time was they were sailing dry laps in Auckland before they left for Bermuda. 

Bullshit. Where’s the press release stating this fact?  

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40 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Bullshit. Where’s the press release stating this fact?  

Oh now you want a press release!? Lol i never stated it as fact, i said the word at the time was... 

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

And how long had they been sailing before they left for Bermuda? 

The AC50 was launched on Feb 15 2017. They were in Bermuda by May, so 2 months, in which they were off the water for a couple of weeks after breaking their boards.

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52 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Bullshit. Where’s the press release stating this fact?  

Well this is the very first day in Bermuda, they rock up and we imediately get independent footage of multiple consecutive foiling tacks and a foiling mark rounding all in what look like pretty marginal low end conditions.  Safe to say on any better day in Auckland prior to this they must have been pretty much dry lapping when they got things rignt.

 

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5 hours ago, Forourselves said:

The AC50 was launched on Feb 15 2017. They were in Bermuda by May, so 2 months, in which they were off the water for a couple of weeks after breaking their boards.

Well that is most likely more time than most of the F50 teams got before Sydney.  So wait and see.  If they can't do dry laps by Cowes....

(NYC may just suck no matter what.)

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But, they will.never.get.time.on.water.to.improve.

That's the way wuss wants it for some reason, prolly so the carbon doesn't go soft.

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