Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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3 hours ago, winchfodder said:

I think we are all agreed that they will not get past this AC.

No we're not. Plenty of people that matter like the design, including all the challengers.

 

3 hours ago, winchfodder said:

If it had any chance of survival we would have seen the UK or the New York boat tacking and gybing by now.

AM have stated they're doing dry laps. Do you think Terry's lying? That footage isn't in the public domain does not mean it isn't happening.

 

3 hours ago, winchfodder said:

I guess it is just the NZ party line to keep talking up the event

As if they're ever going to talk down the cup - get real.

 

I think we can all agree your statements are nonsense.

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On 4/5/2019 at 7:07 AM, Horn Rock said:

The defender puts out a rule. Whether the challengers agree with it is irrelevant. It's never been an "agreed" design.

 

Not in a MC match, it's mutual consent between the defender and challenger. If the challenger doesn't agree then its a DoG match.

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Not in a MC match, it's mutual consent between the defender and challenger. If the challenger doesn't agree then its a DoG match.

Two DoG matches in the last 36 years, suggests that for the majority of time the defender gets their way.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

The design isn't easy - it is a technological contest, as it should be. The sort of expertise required is rare and expensive, the development costs are high. Yet ETNZ have gone this route. If they were hard up for cash, as you contend, why would they pick such a pricey design? Your arguments are contradictory. I have no problem ETNZ leveraging their IP, and I bet NZ tax payers don't either, or ETNZ sponsors. That a tiny country like NZ can be in such a position to sell critical IP to much larger nations does seem to irk some people. I don't give a fuck. Your opinion or approval is irrelevant. Want to change it? Go win it and implement your own protocol. Until then, well you know what......

I'll pass on the English lesson from someone who uses quiet for quite, and elk for ilk. Elk for fucks sake? Apologies for playing the man so hard, but all this seems way above your pay grade. I suggest you get angry about something else, like rugby league may be?

 

Thanks for the history lesson, some good points there. However for this iteration of the cup, and certainly Oracle's tenure, the defender has wielded sweeping powers over the design, without a great deal of challenger input. I stand by what I said.

What an angry little fucker you are. Liberal Leftie maybe, only willing to listen to those that agree with your point of view. Everyone else is a moron. 

As for it being a tech contest, absolutely agree. Where we disagree is how it is dealt with. The contest dims when it is decided to supply pre-built parts. Sort of starts to limit out of the box thinking. But at least it keeps costs down, eh. Then only extremely financed and qualified teams can get to play. Sounds fine to me, it is a tech contest as you say. But you think selling IP on how to build a boat is a good thing for the contest. Was a shit fight when Oracle helped SoftBank, but it is okay for TNZ to sell stuff. In fact you think I should be proud of them for doing so. I don’t, not even a little. Firstly, why would you sell your good stuff. Well you don’t, you sell them shit that is already at minimum one generation old, more likely two or three. In other words you are selling snake oil to help teams that couldn’t enter sell the story to the money guys that they have a chance. Some contest you seem to be supporting. 

As for my opinion has no use unless I go out and win it first. What an arrogant asshole you are. And thanks so much for the English lesson. It is a bit of a convention in parts of anarchy to use elk instead of ilk. But that’s fine, you didn’t know so I will forgive the pedantic rant. As for playing the man hard, really, that’s what you think you did. :rolleyes:

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35 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The contest dims when it is decided to supply pre-built parts. Sort of starts to limit out of the box thinking.

ETNZ came up with stacks of out of the box thinking in the last cup, which had heaps of one design elements. There goes that argument straight out the window. You really need to think a bit harder before coming out with this drivel. 

 

35 minutes ago, Gissie said:

In other words you are selling snake oil to help teams that couldn’t enter sell the story to the money guys that they have a chance. Some contest you seem to be supporting. 

Plenty of syndicates know they're not going to win on their first outing, but use it to develop their experience so as to be more competitive in subsequent campaigns. Being able to buy IP gets them into the game, so they can begin that journey. This is not fucking rocket science, but is dismissed by you, who has some hard arsed, narrow view of what the AC should be. I'm happy they disappoint you.

 

35 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Liberal Leftie maybe

Ha, not sure what my political views have to do with it, but I guess that makes you a racist, climate change denying, right wing nut-job, if we're bandying political labels about. 

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Two DoG matches in the last 36 years, suggests that for the majority of time the defender gets their way.

Which does not negate the mutual consent match, like we are supposed to have this AC.

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40 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

ETNZ came up with stacks of out of the box thinking in the last cup, which had heaps of one design elements. There goes that argument straight out the window. You really need to think a bit harder before coming out with this drivel. 

 

Plenty of syndicates know they're not going to win on their first outing, but use it to develop their experience so as to be more competitive in subsequent campaigns. Being able to buy IP gets them into the game, so they can begin that journey. This is not fucking rocket science, but is dismissed by you, who has some hard arsed, narrow view of what the AC should be. I'm happy they disappoint you.

 

Ha, not sure what my political views have to do with it, but I guess that makes you a racist, climate change denying, right wing nut-job, if we're bandying political labels about. 

Rant on dear man. We have different views and you are certainly not open to any form of discussion. To reiterate, I don’t care how technical of he boats are, design and build what you want to race, just make sure it fits the rules. No one design stuff at all. All because it was done before doesn’t make it right then or now, in my eyes. 

If you can afford it or have the skills to design it, go play in a sand box where you can. The cup shouldn’t be dumbed down by having to sell them out of date design work. It is a challenge cup for those that dream, not JAFR. 

I also disagree with the boats doing anything before the first race. If a team wants to showboat, go for it, but forcing teams to be on site before the first race is wrong. 

But then this would get in the way of the ‘spectacle’ that would raise interest and viewers and therefore money. The whole thing has become about money, the cup an old anachronism being whored out by the pros that want to keep earning. 

But enough, you just don’t want to give it a thought as long as it keeps you happy. As I said earlier, it is you and your elk that are doing the damage. 

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On 4/5/2019 at 12:22 PM, Forourselves said:

Its about maintenance with any boat! It doesn't matter whether its an AC72, an AC50, an AC75, an F50, or an IACC class boat, they all require maintenance, and they all require a lot of people! WTF!? 

You are fast running out of arguments, and now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

You almost had it correct until you added the IACC boat to the mix . Just comparing the budget to get the boats in the water exhibits the difference in budget quite well .

81C1EE86-E1AB-4C47-B4ED-30BA8E4624C0.jpeg

6CF6F64E-38A7-4DE1-943F-D756A2EA72A4.gif

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Ever read the Oxford dic ?

I know what an elk is, it just doesn't work as a collective noun for humans. Even if it's an in house joke for Anarchists who like to boast about their third rate education.

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9 hours ago, Gissie said:

So it is still all Oracles fault and TNZ are just the white knight coming in to save it. Yeah right. They want to keep it, and the gravy train, running. They are happy to take a challenge cup and turn it into JAFR. They justify making it commercially viable by claiming it is the only way the cup can survive and people like you swallow their bullshit hook, line and sinker. 

They want it to be anything but a challenge cup. That would mean it only happens hen someone decides to have a go. Then Dalts and all the other pros, sucking vigorously on the test of the cash cow would need to find a new job. Which would be a problem, as there isn’t that much work around. So TNZ is just finishing off the abortion that Oracle started. Taking a challenge cup and making it the Nascar of sailing. Not saying Nascar is bad, just that it isn’t a challenge cup. 

The fact TNZ need to skate the line on rules, sell design data and insist on one design parts is just the final nails in the cup coffin. The only step left is to sell the whole thing to Red Bull. 

"They want" 

"They are happy to"

You know nothing about what "They" want, or what "They"are happy to do.

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

The whole thing has become about money

It's always been about money. ETNZ doesn't have a billionaire backer. Wanting to get some value for their sponsors is not a big deal. Name me a professional sport that doesn't rely on some sort of sponsorship? It's all well and good to have these purist values, but for a small country like NZ, economic realities dictate having sponsors.

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For those that think Teams should not be selling/ buying design packages, how do you think the event can 1) attract new teams?

2) Enter without billionaire backing?

3) compete with established teams?

You people will never be satisfied. When will you get it through your thick heads that sponsorship, whether individual teams or the event itself is required to ensure the event is successful.

There simply isn't enough billionaires willing to play the game anymore, and even if there was, the public, the sporting public, the people who bring in the TV Ratings, the people who pay for the apps, and the people who keep the event going don't want to watch billionaire pissing contests anymore.

Take the Giraglia Rolex Cup for instance, that will always exist because insanely rich pompous assholes want to race their billion dollar superyachts against each other, but no one gives a fuck about that because its just a rich mans pissing contest. No one wants to see the A become another Rolex Giraglia Cup.

The AC should always be the pinnacle event of the professional scene, where the best of the best compete against each other.

The event needs the buildup events, why? Sponsors. Sponsors need to see a return on their investment. Now you ask well why do the teams even need sponsors? Because its the only way to obtain any sort of competitive budget. You can't just stand on a street corner with a sign saying "Billionaire wanted for money for an Americas Cup campaign"

Sponsors provide teams with a budget in which to build their campaign around. But you can't just say to a sponsor "Thanks for the cash now fuck off and let me spend the money"

They have effectively invested in the team, they are a stakeholder, and any investor/ stakeholder wants and needs a return on their investment.

They also want to see how their money is spent, on what, who is spending it, and what they are getting for that money.

The budgets are not bottomless, so those new teams need a way to enter the AC where they will be able to 1) build a competitive boat (And you say well they're not going to be competitive buying a design package) Are you sure about that?

They need a way to minimise costs, and by purchasing a design package it minimises the costs of a design team, and they can basically build a boat straight away and meet the required build schedule they need to.

No one gets to the top without first starting at the bottom. You can't just say "If you don't have a billionaire, than fuck off because we don't want sponsors, and we don't want anyone helping anyone anywhere because only the strong survive" Its just not feasible,and it damages the event and the sport.

 

 

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1 hour ago, maxmini said:

You almost had it correct until you added the IACC boat to the mix . Just comparing the budget to get the boats in the water exhibits the difference in budget quite well .

81C1EE86-E1AB-4C47-B4ED-30BA8E4624C0.jpeg

6CF6F64E-38A7-4DE1-943F-D756A2EA72A4.gif

So they halved the amount of sailors, and grew the design team. Remember also in 2007, the top teams all ran two boat testing programs meaning two sailing crews at any one time. 

emirates-team-new-zealand-boats-sail-dur

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11 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

I agree with @dg_sailingfan, this is one of the best posts I’ve ever read here.

 

I laughed so hard. 

F867E561-EF0C-47FF-B0D2-4252EE7F62F4.jpeg

"You and your elk" has been a running joke here for years.

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Thanks for the history lesson, some good points there. However for this iteration of the cup, and certainly Oracle's tenure, the defender has wielded sweeping powers over the design, without a great deal of challenger input. I stand by what I said.

Cheers. Your post made me wonder how much the rise of pro sailors has increased the power of the defender. Eons ago, rich men were happy to delay challenges until the NYYC came to the table, so they had bargaining power. Pro sailors need an income and want the sort of income that only comes with the AC, and maybe that has fundamentally changed the power balance to the defender.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

For those that think Teams should not be selling/ buying design packages, how do you think the event can 1) attract new teams?

2) Enter without billionaire backing?

3) compete with established teams?

You people will never be satisfied. When will you get it through your thick heads that sponsorship, whether individual teams or the event itself is required to ensure the event is successful.

There simply isn't enough billionaires willing to play the game anymore, and even if there was, the public, the sporting public, the people who bring in the TV Ratings, the people who pay for the apps, and the people who keep the event going don't want to watch billionaire pissing contests anymore.

Take the Giraglia Rolex Cup for instance, that will always exist because insanely rich pompous assholes want to race their billion dollar superyachts against each other, but no one gives a fuck about that because its just a rich mans pissing contest. No one wants to see the A become another Rolex Giraglia Cup.

The AC should always be the pinnacle event of the professional scene, where the best of the best compete against each other.

The event needs the buildup events, why? Sponsors. Sponsors need to see a return on their investment. Now you ask well why do the teams even need sponsors? Because its the only way to obtain any sort of competitive budget. You can't just stand on a street corner with a sign saying "Billionaire wanted for money for an Americas Cup campaign"

Sponsors provide teams with a budget in which to build their campaign around. But you can't just say to a sponsor "Thanks for the cash now fuck off and let me spend the money"

They have effectively invested in the team, they are a stakeholder, and any investor/ stakeholder wants and needs a return on their investment.

They also want to see how their money is spent, on what, who is spending it, and what they are getting for that money.

The budgets are not bottomless, so those new teams need a way to enter the AC where they will be able to 1) build a competitive boat (And you say well they're not going to be competitive buying a design package) Are you sure about that?

They need a way to minimise costs, and by purchasing a design package it minimises the costs of a design team, and they can basically build a boat straight away and meet the required build schedule they need to.

No one gets to the top without first starting at the bottom. You can't just say "If you don't have a billionaire, than fuck off because we don't want sponsors, and we don't want anyone helping anyone anywhere because only the strong survive" Its just not feasible,and it damages the event and the sport.

 

 

This is where we differ. You and Horn want the cup to be a commercial event. With dancing girls and preface races and flashing lights and dozens of competitors and lots of money and exciting racing with forty seven camera angles and money and sponsors and a timetable and... just another fucking regatta on silly trimarans that pretend to be monohulls. 

I liked it as a challenge cup. If it doesn’t get challenged then so be it. That is the point of a challenge cup. Those who want to compete can do so. If you can’t afford it or need to buy obsolete design data to con your sponsors go play in the other regattas. 

It is no longer the plaything of the billionaires that you moan about. It is the plaything of the pros that get paid to be a part of the circus it has become.  Not a shadow of its previous self. But this is the way it has gone and exactly what you and Horn seem to want, a dumbed down spectacle for the masses.

Fair enough, but not my idea of the cup. So I will make your day and drift away again. Let you get on with your little circle jerk with your like minded elk. Waiting for NASCAR on the Water, the greatest show since, well, a couple of years ago. 

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9 minutes ago, Gissie said:

You and Horn want the cup to be a commercial event.

ETNZ doesn't have the luxury of choice in this regard. Even Larry with his very deep pockets still bought some sponsors on board. I respect your ideals, but the economic realities of the event mean paying some homage to the money gods.

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6 hours ago, Gissie said:

 

It is no longer the plaything of the billionaires that you moan about. It is the plaything of the pros that get paid to be a part of the circus it has become.  

Yes.  Steady work with a multiplicity of events, spin offs, attempted "agreements." 

So much of being a pro sailor seems to involve sucking up to and manipulating rich guys' egos and self images.  E.g., Owner driver with a team of pros. 

 

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10 hours ago, Forourselves said:

For those that think Teams should not be selling/ buying design packages, how do you think the event can 1) attract new teams?

2) Enter without billionaire backing?

3) compete with established teams?

You people will never be satisfied. When will you get it through your thick heads that sponsorship, whether individual teams or the event itself is required to ensure the event is successful.

There simply isn't enough billionaires willing to play the game anymore, and even if there was, the public, the sporting public, the people who bring in the TV Ratings, the people who pay for the apps, and the people who keep the event going don't want to watch billionaire pissing contests anymore.

Take the Giraglia Rolex Cup for instance, that will always exist because insanely rich pompous assholes want to race their billion dollar superyachts against each other, but no one gives a fuck about that because its just a rich mans pissing contest. No one wants to see the A become another Rolex Giraglia Cup.

The AC should always be the pinnacle event of the professional scene, where the best of the best compete against each other.

The event needs the buildup events, why? Sponsors. Sponsors need to see a return on their investment. Now you ask well why do the teams even need sponsors? Because its the only way to obtain any sort of competitive budget. You can't just stand on a street corner with a sign saying "Billionaire wanted for money for an Americas Cup campaign"

Sponsors provide teams with a budget in which to build their campaign around. But you can't just say to a sponsor "Thanks for the cash now fuck off and let me spend the money"

They have effectively invested in the team, they are a stakeholder, and any investor/ stakeholder wants and needs a return on their investment.

They also want to see how their money is spent, on what, who is spending it, and what they are getting for that money.

The budgets are not bottomless, so those new teams need a way to enter the AC where they will be able to 1) build a competitive boat (And you say well they're not going to be competitive buying a design package) Are you sure about that?

They need a way to minimise costs, and by purchasing a design package it minimises the costs of a design team, and they can basically build a boat straight away and meet the required build schedule they need to.

No one gets to the top without first starting at the bottom. You can't just say "If you don't have a billionaire, than fuck off because we don't want sponsors, and we don't want anyone helping anyone anywhere because only the strong survive" Its just not feasible,and it damages the event and the sport.

 

 

Are any of the 3 challengers buying the ENTZ design package? Did any in 34? It doesn't seem to promote any new teams so why have it? It just continues to change the AC into just another regatta and not a challenge cup where a couple rich assholes show up and go at each other. There are plenty of other "pinnacle events" for pro sailors to compete in. Why continue to ruin the only one like it? It's better not to exist in my opinion if it keeps heading down this road. ENTZ seemed to adopt most of the things they hated and bitched about Oracle doing. I am glad they are moving away from one-design.

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

Are any of the 3 challengers buying the ENTZ design package? Did any in 34? It doesn't seem to promote any new teams so why have it? It just continues to change the AC into just another regatta and not a challenge cup where a couple rich assholes show up and go at each other. There are plenty of other "pinnacle events" for pro sailors to compete in. Why continue to ruin the only one like it? It's better not to exist in my opinion if it keeps heading down this road. ENTZ seemed to adopt most of the things they hated and bitched about Oracle doing. I am glad they are moving away from one-design.

Stars n Stripes have, Dutchsail will/ if they can obtain the required funding. LR bought a design package in AC34, it certainly has enabled at least one new team to get to the starting line.

The problem with you guys is what you want is not realistic. No ones gonna watch if there is no spectacle, and there is no reason to compete if no one is watching you because no one cares whether you're competing or not. Get in the real world! The event needs sponsors. It can not continue without them, and sponsors are investors, which require a return on their investment.

There is only one pinnacle event. None of the other can be considered that. Only the AC.

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6 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Agreed! Regarding to be on Site before the 1st Race I agree with you as well.

We absolutely don't need these clown Series like the America's Cup World Series.

The AC survived without it. There weren't any tune up Series before 1983, 1987, 1992, 1995, 2000 and 2003. You showed up with a Boat at the CSS (Challenger Selection Series) formerly known as LVC and that was it.

Bertarelli started this crap with the LV Acts in the run up to the AC32 Defense and then OTUSA continued it with the ACWS in 2011/2012 and 2015/2016 and now ETNZ/LR is continueing the crap with the ACWS in 2020.

And yet a couple of weeks ago you were bitching and moaning because it was 500 and something days, or what ever number you pulled out of your crazy mind and we hadn't seen any AC racing! One minute you want some racing, next minute you don't!

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Get real here: The AC75 Class will not live beyond AC36.

And you're indeed a little moron only willing to listen to people who support your Point of View. That's being called sitting in a Glas House just like @Forourselves is.

I'm willing to bet it will. Who have we got, LR - they will definitely stick with the AC75, INEOS - well, they are enjoying the challenge, and know if they go back to the AC50, they'll get absolutely destroyed by ETNZ, so they'll want to stick with the 75, especially if they do well in it this time.

AM this is their first foray into the AC, and there are a lot of old heads in their team (Monohull enthusiasts) so my bet is they'll again go with the AC75.

The new teams, well they're going to struggle to win anyway. Stars and Stripes could be a contender, but again, they're going to gain a lot of experience in the 75, as well as data and knowledge, so I'm picking those guys, if they do well, would be keen for another go round in the 75. No ones going to go back to the dinosaur 50's.

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The days of the billionaire pissing contest are gone. And they're not coming back. The world has changed, and billionaires aren't willing to play that game anymore, therefor, sponsorship is the only way forward.

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55 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The days of the billionaire pissing contest are gone. And they're not coming back. The world has changed, and billionaires aren't willing to play that game anymore, therefor, sponsorship is the only way forward.

That explains why INEOS are such big sponsors. 

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Are any of the 3 challengers buying the ENTZ design package? Did any in 34? It doesn't seem to promote any new teams so why have it? It just continues to change the AC into just another regatta and not a challenge cup where a couple rich assholes show up and go at each other. There are plenty of other "pinnacle events" for pro sailors to compete in. Why continue to ruin the only one like it? It's better not to exist in my opinion if it keeps heading down this road. ENTZ seemed to adopt most of the things they hated and bitched about Oracle doing. I am glad they are moving away from one-design.

I agree that the 'design package' idea was highly speculative, and whilst it got some more teams "further down the funnel", it may not actually get them over the line... it will be interesting to see how this pans out... suffice to say ETNZ were not depending on the cash in any event... it was likely more about getting more teams, and some extra beer/sail money...

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why would any Team want to sail the AC75 again in AC37 when the Boat will already have a ceiling in AC36? No way you can make the Boat go faster in AC37.

If NYYC wins it they will go back to a tranditional Monohull, not a Foiling One I can guarantee you that, same with Luna Rossa? Bertelli wanted to have a traditional one but had to cave to ETNZ. And Ineos will also go to a traditional one given that Rolf Vrolijk is working for them.

This whole Foiling Crap has thrown the AC out of kelter. If you want a Foiling Series go to the Extreme Sailing Series, the GC32 or SailGP.

AC isn't a Sailboat Race anymore if Boats flying above water for 90% of the time.

What a stupid thing to say. No boat in the history of the AC has had a ceiling after one cycle. You can always make a boat go faster, whether it be sailing it differently, or by making modifications. 

"This whole foiling crap has thrown the AC out of kilter" Fuck you're a dumb cunt!

One minute you're jizzing over your keyboard about the abilities of the F50, about how exciting the last AC was, and now the whole foiling aspect is crap!? Fuckin hell mate! You need to go get checked for schizophrenia or Bi-polar, or some shit, because jesus you jump around! 

You go on about how slow and dull the IACC boats were, then how exciting the AC50's/ F50's were/ are, and now you wanna go back to boats that don't fly!? FFS!!

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11 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

ETNZ doesn't have the luxury of choice in this regard. Even Larry with his very deep pockets still bought some sponsors on board. I respect your ideals, but the economic realities of the event mean paying some homage to the money gods.

The fact that TNZ doesn’t have the luxury is part of the problem. They started playing in a game that was almost out of their reach. Now they want to change the game so they can keep playing. Larry, despite spending a lot, went along with Russel on trying to make the whole thing a commercial enterprise. 

The money is needed if you want/need the cup to change from being a bring you best and give it a go, to let’s have lots of regattas in silly looking boats that an audience with a 15 minute time span will lap up. 

The second option is obviously the one you go for. Trotting our pathetic excuses like the world has moved on blah blah blah. It is all just bullshit and jellybeans to excuse what has been done to the cup. 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

What a stupid thing to say. No boat in the history of the AC has had a ceiling after one cycle. You can always make a boat go faster, whether it be sailing it differently, or by making modifications. 

"This whole foiling crap has thrown the AC out of kilter" Fuck you're a dumb cunt! One minute you're jizzing over your keyboard about the abilities of the F50, about how exciting the last AC was, and now the whole foiling aspect is crap!? Fuckin hell mate! You need to go get checked for schizophrenia or Bi-polar, or some shit, because jesus you jump around! 

You go on about how slow and dull the IACC boats were, then how exciting the AC50's/ F50's were/ are, and now you wanna go back to boats that don't fly!? FFS!!

Might I suggest you try not engaging with A4E and see how it goes?

He's like a floater from the last time you emptied the heads, that one that gets stuck in the wake and just keeps swirling... threatening to leave (remember that?) and drifting off as you sigh in relief , but only to pop back up in another eddy, and spin there for dear hope - same turd for a brain, same shit ideas, same stench laden thoughts, same lame pointless existence...

I'm pretty sure you are the last remaining person given them any attention... if you stop, then they will be left alone at the bar shouting at the wall... 

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4 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The AC 72 did. They were done after one Cycle.

The only way they can keep the AC 75 alive is to downsize them like the AC72 were downsized.

The AC75 will not be sustainable.

The IACC lasted for 15 years which was pretty remarkable. I doubt the AC75 will last that long.

The AC72 didn't have a ceiling! That boat had major potential, but they chose not to go another cycle because it was too expensive!

And it always got faster. But Oracle took the cup in this direction, and that direction has continued to evolve, and it will continue to evolve.

 

 

 

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

I agree with @Gissie

The America's Cup has to become a "Challenge Cup" again with a Boat similar to the IACC Class which can be modified and is sustainable for a few Cup Cycles.

A big, slow but still expensive dog.

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53 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

I agree that the 'design package' idea was highly speculative, and whilst it got some more teams "further down the funnel", it may not actually get them over the line... it will be interesting to see how this pans out... suffice to say ETNZ were not depending on the cash in any event... it was likely more about getting more teams, and some extra beer/sail money...

Right. I think the money had absolutely nothing to do with it. It's obviously going to be hard to get more than 3 teams for the near future and the recent past. Even last time with one-design hulls and wings didn't make any great difference. Having said that my favorite was the '95 defender series with 3 really equal boats that were all equal in different ways and the worst was 34 with 3 challengers. I don't think the number of challengers means shit.

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26 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

 I don't think the number of challengers means shit.

I agree... I think it mainly matters to external stakeholders like Auckland Council, NZ Govt and event sponsors who are interested primarily in quantity as opposed to pure quality racing...

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The package is not about helping teams to win but bringing more teams pretending that they may win.

It's all about the defender trying to make a big event and I have nothing against that. The problem is not here in this AC.

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

For the last 4 America's Cups we went from

# 1 A DoG Match between a Cat and a Tri

to

# 2 Flying Wingsail AC 72 Cats

to

# 3 Flying Wingsail AC 50 Cats

to

# 4 Flying AC 75 Monohulls

That's 4 Boat Classes over 11 years. YIKES! That doesn't do the AC anything good by changing the Boat Classes every time a new Defender pops up.

It is also contributing to the low Participation:

1987: 12 Teams

1992: 8 Teams

1995: 7 Teams

2000: 11 Teams

2003: 9 Teams

2007: 11 Teams

2010 (DoG Match): 2 Teams

2013: 3 Teams

2017: 5 Teams

2021: 6 Teams (at most)

All of that is dribble, and irrelevant.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The package is not about helping teams to win but bringing more teams pretending that they may win.

It's all about the defender trying to make a big event and I have nothing against that. The problem is not here in this AC.

Thats a perfect description of AC35.

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17 hours ago, Gissie said:

This is where we differ. You and Horn want the cup to be a commercial event. With dancing girls and preface races and flashing lights and dozens of competitors and lots of money and exciting racing with forty seven camera angles and money and sponsors and a timetable and... just another fucking regatta on silly trimarans that pretend to be monohulls. 

I liked it as a challenge cup. If it doesn’t get challenged then so be it. That is the point of a challenge cup. Those who want to compete can do so. If you can’t afford it or need to buy obsolete design data to con your sponsors go play in the other regattas. 

It is no longer the plaything of the billionaires that you moan about. It is the plaything of the pros that get paid to be a part of the circus it has become.  Not a shadow of its previous self. But this is the way it has gone and exactly what you and Horn seem to want, a dumbed down spectacle for the masses.

Fair enough, but not my idea of the cup. So I will make your day and drift away again. Let you get on with your little circle jerk with your like minded elk. Waiting for NASCAR on the Water, the greatest show since, well, a couple of years ago. 

Paragraph 3: Exactly why Simeon Tienpon put forward a Dutch entry. 

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11 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

For the last 4 America's Cups we went from

# 1 A DoG Match between a Cat and a Tri

to

# 2 Flying Wingsail AC 72 Cats

to

# 3 Flying Wingsail AC 50 Cats

to

# 4 Flying AC 75 Monohulls

That's 4 Boat Classes over 11 years. YIKES! That doesn't do the AC anything good by changing the Boat Classes every time a new Defender pops up.

It is also contributing to the low Participation:

1987: 12 Teams

1992: 8 Teams

1995: 7 Teams

2000: 11 Teams

2003: 9 Teams

2007: 11 Teams

2010 (DoG Match): 2 Teams

2013: 3 Teams

2017: 5 Teams

2021: 6 Teams (at most)

Just think how prestigious the America’s Cup would be they still used 12 Meters. 

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A4E/dg sailingfanny So looking at your claim... 

 

4 classes over the last four cups including this one on its way and actually the participation numbers have increased..

 

what did participation damage was two pricks with too much money fucking each other over in court and settling for a fuck you DOG match.

one of them your beloved leader from alinghi.. 

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Occurs to me if they do make foil arm assemblies for the 3 late challengers there will be spares if any break.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Occurs to me if they do make foil arm assemblies for the 3 late challengers there will be spares if any break.

^^ The question is to know who is already on the list. But first they have to manufacture it. :)

What is sad is that if it wasn't one design could perhaps see some boats sailing now.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ The question is to know who is already on the list. But first they have to manufacture it. :)

What is sad is that if it wasn't one design could perhaps see some boats sailing now.

Or possibly even later than once the arms ship... we simply don't know... having 4 or more teams having to add this to their design/test/manufacture task list too is less efficient than solving it in advance as one-design element (competence pending) ;-)

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I think it would've been great to see the boats sailing by now, but I also think its better that the teams and the event wait until the boats can be properly built, assembled and tested. 

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Etnz has publicly said middle of year for launch for some time now, until they say differently I expect that's the plan...wait as long as possible as to not enable the xerox teams out there.

Regardless of arms.

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9 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Interesting Article regarding Stars & Stripes Team USA, Altus Challenge & DutchSail

https://www.oasport.it/2019/03/vela-americas-cup-2021-i-team-gia-iscritti-e-quelli-ancora-in-bilico-situazione-di-incertezza/

GTran in English

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oasport.it%2F2019%2F03%2Fvela-americas-cup-2021-i-team-gia-iscritti-e-quelli-ancora-in-bilico-situazione-di-incertezza%2F

The Island of Malta has hit a Political Crisis. Government Funding originally planned for the Altus Challenge has been scrubbed. Unless Cataldi finds some Deep pockets soon it's unlikely they will make it.

Here we go again...its all Malta's fault lol

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22 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Or possibly even later than once the arms ship... we simply don't know... having 4 or more teams having to add this to their design/test/manufacture task list too is less efficient than solving it in advance as one-design element (competence pending) ;-)

Known and known unknown.

We know that LR would not be sailing now

We know that if TNZ had been working with LR in partnership for the arm, which would have been probable, they would not sail now

We can safely guess that team NYYC would be sailing now

We dont know if BA would sail

We know that the others would not.

The fuck up is due to a combination of elements:

- underestimation of the difficulty

- a rule with too many one design pieces, which should not happen in an AC, mainly after claiming we were back to the real AC.

- a protocol where other teams were excluded and could not speak

And please, stop insulting the italians and point them as the culprits.

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You can't know that NYYC would have their own foil arms in place by now... 

And if you claim that you can indeed know that, then you can't take issue with the suggestion that that would demonstrate NYYC being more competent than Persico has been to date in regards to designing, building and shipping foil arms - given that in this scenario you're arguing that NYYC would already have theirs on a sailing boat, whilst Persico is yet to ship any...

Logic man..

.Related image

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TC is desperate to find anything wrong with AC36. Whether it's the boats design, the supplied parts, the time line of events, or issues with the challengers. Seems pretty keen for it to fail, and give us all a big I told you so.

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^ Yup. Bit sad.......

Glad to see he acknowledged that LR would NOT be sailing if left to their own devices - but what to make of 'Stop blaming them for the foil arms not being ready' when it has been acknowledge by COR/D that that is exactly where the blame lies. Thank goodness they got on with it moved beyond that initial snafu....

Note that while TC has been bleating since day one (& AC34 & AC35!), teams are keeping it together

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In the Radio Sport clip Shoebridge states that after the failure "some months before Christmas" the decision was made to redesign for which "there has been more design and engineering input from all the teams". The arms will be late - 6-8 weeks than originally planned...

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Interesting that they had received a call from the Malta Challenge that sounded positive and could possibly put them back in the game. Who cares whether they're competitive or not. Realistically no team apart from Alinghi have ever won the Cup the first time around, and Alinghi had to buy another team to win it. Malta will be highly unlikely to compete with the likes of the Super 3, but if they can pull off at least one win they will be highly respected as Spain were in 95 when they picked up their one and only win against the other bottom of the table team, Sydney 95.

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No one has ever said it would be easy. This is the America's Cup. Get your game on or go home.

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On 4/10/2019 at 2:54 AM, Horn Rock said:

TC is desperate to find anything wrong with AC36. Whether it's the boats design, the supplied parts, the time line of events, or issues with the challengers. Seems pretty keen for it to fail, and give us all a big I told you so.

I hope that they can sail in May or June, am happy that other teams have some input, feel free to say what I like or not regarding the defender, whoever they are.

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

feel free to say what I like or not regarding the defender

Indeed, you've already labelled the delay in the foil arms a cluster fuck - whatever, I'm not here to censure anyone, but I will push back where I see fit. With respect to the cant and arm parts. ETNZ's plans are bold and ambitious, and not without risk. The timeline leaves very little wiggle room. That they're on track to only be two months late is a pretty good effort imho.

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9 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Indeed, you've already labelled the delay in the foil arms a cluster fuck - whatever, I'm not here to censure anyone, but I will push back where I see fit. With respect to the cant and arm parts. ETNZ's plans are bold and ambitious, and not without risk. The timeline leaves very little wiggle room. That they're on track to only be two months late is a pretty good effort imho.

I would really love to hear you guys defending Oracle for "only" being 3 months late. Seriously? This is a cluster fuck. Every Kiwi on here would be losing their shit if this was Oracle. It would be non-stop Larry this or fucking Russell that. 

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6 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

I would really love to hear you guys defending Oracle for "only" being 3 months late. Seriously? This is a cluster fuck. Every Kiwi on here would be losing their shit if this was Oracle. It would be non-stop Larry this or fucking Russell that. 

Being a couple of months late with some supplied parts is a bit different to changing the entire boat design mid cycle. It's not even comparable.

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53 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

 With respect to the cant and arm parts. ETNZ's plans are bold and ambitious, and not without risk. The timeline leaves very little wiggle room. That they're on track to only be two months late is a pretty good effort imho.

I stand with my terms.

Yes the boat is ambitious, and those who don't try don't make mistakes. However why would you laud ETNZ if they succeed, as other teams now give their input ?

And that doesn't mean that a concept with all the inputs will work, more interesting would have been a design contest, which is about the AC after all.

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

more interesting would have been a design contest,

It is a design contest. When we get to see the boats, discussion will move to the hull shapes, foils, and sail plans - the design elements, and interest in the one design parts will fade, unless of course there are issues with them.

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14 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

why would you laud ETNZ if they succeed, as other teams now give their input ?

Ultimately they're responsible. If it all goes tits up they will get a roasting, not the challengers.

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Just now, Horn Rock said:

Ultimately they're responsible. If it all goes tits up they will get a roasting, not the challengers.

Then some should stop blaming the spaghettis for the mess.

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20 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Then some should stop blaming the spaghettis for the mess.

I wouldn't worry too much about the noise emanating from in here. Among those that matter - Shoey and co - look to be on top of things.

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Hmmm,

$63M. I disagree with Tienpont that you can be competitive with that. That's only slightly higher than the French had in AC 35 and we know what happened to them. They were the backbenchers.

"I disagree with Tienpont" lol lets see your resume next to his...

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Regarding Malta...here are the two Tweets they posted thus far:

If you believe that crap by ETNZ COO Kevin Shoebridge that Malta Altus is still IN believe it. I don't. Their lastest Official Tweet is from December 8th 2018. That's now almost 5 months ago.

Boo hoo ya little crybaby. No one cares what you believe.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I expect a withdrawal Statement from the Altus Challenge within the next week.

They’re sending it to you personally! :lol:

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No matter where they sending it they will withdraw:

# 1 They have not enough money

# 2 They have no boatyard where to construct

and # 3 They have no Team

What Shoebridge is trying to sell to the Media here that they're still in it is just a joke & a fools errand.

Its all Malta's fault! lol

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Its all Malta's fault! lol

I think the town idiot has a new name - Malta4Eva!

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Gladwell saying Malta Altus bought the entire Artemis Team is completely a HOAX and wishful thinking.

He didn't say that.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

He did:

Malta Altus Challenge has most of the key players identified, along with other key components in place - and are just waiting on finalisation of a funding package. Many of those involved are from the 2017 Louis Vuitton Finalist Artemis Challenge and are expected to have a strong relationship with Artemis Technology and their simulator. They are built on the team "Patron" model in a similar way to Larry Ellison with Oracle Teams USA, Ernesto Bertarelli with Alinghi, and Torbjörn Törnqvist with Artemis Racing.

Read it again. He didn't say that. He said "Many" not all.

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Read it again. He didn't say that. He said "Many" not all.

Ridiculous. There will never be "all" in any team after an AC cycle. Many are all that is left so it would be all of what's left?

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The only Team Members who won't be there are Jensen, Parkinson and Brittle (as they are with Ineos). 95% of the Malta Challenge Crew/Team will come from Artemis IF it comes to pass and that is very bad.

For what do we have these Residency Rules when Cataldi apparently can buy a complete Team? No wonder AM/NYYC & INEOS are very upset and want them eliminated.

AM are international themselves! Half the team is internationals, As are INEOS! They've all bought people. The residency clause is there to ensure those bought spend time residing in the nation that they are representing. 

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2 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Ridiculous. There will never be "all" in any team after an AC cycle. Many are all that is left so it would be all of what's left?

Tell your friend that! He said Malta had bought "The entire Artemis team" he was wrong - again.

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Yeah, "American Money" is international all right. Full of mercenaries.

But given the geographical distribution of talent DEVELOPMENT can understand.  

I do wonder, if OracleTeamAUS had a different philosophy for a farm team (baseball term) starting back in 2003, US sailing would be any different.  By 2013 they may even have had 2 or 3 'Muricans on board?

Oh probably not. We are forever screwed. We got money other countries got honey.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You are wrong on that:

Jono MacBeth won't be on the Boat, that's a given. Most of Sailors on Ineos will be Brits.

How many foreigners do you see in this team?

I'm betting McBeth will want to be on that boat as much as anyone else, especially given Ashbys success as both Sailing Team Manager and wing trimmer in Bermuda.

https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/team.html#sailing

Mclean - Kiwi

Spence - Aussie

Jensen - Aussie

Newton - Aussie

Parkinson - Aussie

Fernandez - Spanish

McBeth - Manager - Kiwi.

If we exclude management roles like physio, and teams like Rebels, because lets face it, those guys are solely focused on the ESS and youth programs, what do we have left

Ainslie

Mon,

Brittle,

Carr

Scott

Hutton

Hunter

McMillan  

8 Brits. So its pretty much a half and half split, as is American Magic

I'm not saying thats a bad thing, I'm saying pretty much every team will be international. The Residency rules are there to ensure internationals reside in those countries. Will those rules be bent? Probably, it is the AC, but you can't blame ETNZ for that.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Wrong,

according to what I've read is that Ben Cornish & Oli Greber are Senior Team Members. They won't sail the ESS in the near future so that means that they are 10 Brits on Ineos.

If you break it down who will sail on the Race Boat it comes to this:

Helmsman: Ben Ainslie (GBR)

Tactician: Giles Scott (GBR)

Main Trimmer: Jensen (Aussie)

Flight Controller: Maybe Nick Hutton (GBR) will do that

Jib Trimmer: Newton (GBR/Aussie; Joey Newton does have Dual Citizenship as far as I know)

Grinders: Bleddyn Mon (GBR), Freddie Carr (GBR), Chris Brittle (GBR), Neil Hunter (GBR), Graeme Spence (Aussie), Xabi Fernandez (Spain)

So in fact only 4 Foreigners will sail on the Race Boat.

MacBeth is waay too old to sail on the Race Boat as Grinder.

"according to what I've read is that Ben Cornish & Oli Greber are Senior Team Members" Maybe... or maybe they'll decide to have experienced Americas Cup sailors instead. Especially when you have experienced guys like Ainslie does, even if they are internationals, but who knows...not you.

At the end of the day, does it matter? In terms of the rule, ETNZ have introduced a Nationality rule, and a residency rule, the residency rule exists to try to ensure that any internationals spend a prolonged amount of the time residing in the country of their chosen challenge.

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I award the Bickering  Cup to ?  But can you move it to the Bickering Cup Thread please...

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26 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

And here lies the problem for the Altus Challenge. I just don't believe Gladwell that Cataldi apparently has the money & bought the Team Members from Artemis. That is just wishful thinking on Gladwell's & Dalton's part. Altus shouldn't be allowed to race in the ACWS & CSS with these Residency & Nationality Rules you mentioned - Period.

Bottom Line:

You have to start building now. Conner says it takes 9 months for an AC 75 to built + subsequent testing & training before you can race in Cagliari in late April 2020.

Also, who will helm the Boat if they make the Start Line? Nathan Outteridge? Quite doubtful! He seems very happy to live in Australia.

You don't believe Gladwell

You don't believe Shoebridge

You don't believe Tienpont

You don't believe Malta

You don't believe Dalton

Who do you believe? Oh Dennis Connor, because he speaks the truth (but only when he's bagging Malta) haha

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In a few days there will be more information.

But sailing in the Prada cup looks like:

LR

AM

In

SS or du?

One new challenger?

So I am looking wrong at two new challengers?

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

You don't believe Gladwell

You don't believe Shoebridge

You don't believe Tienpont

You don't believe Malta

You don't believe Dalton

Who do you believe? Oh Dennis Connor, because he speaks the truth (but only when he's bagging Malta) haha

To be fair you are always wrong so maybe he is basing it on that. By the way can you predict some stock movements for me so I can bet the opposite?

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