Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

126 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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55 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I'm willing to bet it will. Who have we got, LR - they will definitely stick with the AC75, INEOS - well, they are enjoying the challenge, and know if they go back to the AC50, they'll get absolutely destroyed by ETNZ, so they'll want to stick with the 75, especially if they do well in it this time.

AM this is their first foray into the AC, and there are a lot of old heads in their team (Monohull enthusiasts) so my bet is they'll again go with the AC75.

The new teams, well they're going to struggle to win anyway. Stars and Stripes could be a contender, but again, they're going to gain a lot of experience in the 75, as well as data and knowledge, so I'm picking those guys, if they do well, would be keen for another go round in the 75. No ones going to go back to the dinosaur 50's.

Why would any Team want to sail the AC75 again in AC37 when the Boat will already have a ceiling in AC36? No way you can make the Boat go faster in AC37.

If NYYC wins it they will go back to a tranditional Monohull, not a Foiling One I can guarantee you that, same with Luna Rossa? Bertelli wanted to have a traditional one but had to cave to ETNZ. And Ineos will also go to a traditional one given that Rolf Vrolijk is working for them.

This whole Foiling Crap has thrown the AC out of kelter. If you want a Foiling Series go to the Extreme Sailing Series, the GC32 or SailGP.

AC isn't a Sailboat Race anymore if Boats flying above water for 90% of the time.

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why would any Team want to sail the AC75 again in AC37 when the Boat will already have a ceiling in AC36? No way you can make the Boat go faster in AC37.

If NYYC wins it they will go back to a tranditional Monohull, not a Foiling One I can guarantee you that, same with Luna Rossa? Bertelli wanted to have a traditional one but had to cave to ETNZ. And Ineos will also go to a traditional one given that Rolf Vrolijk is working for them.

This whole Foiling Crap has thrown the AC out of kelter. If you want a Foiling Series go to the Extreme Sailing Series, the GC32 or SailGP.

AC isn't a Sailboat Race anymore if Boats flying above water for 90% of the time.

What a stupid thing to say. No boat in the history of the AC has had a ceiling after one cycle. You can always make a boat go faster, whether it be sailing it differently, or by making modifications. 

"This whole foiling crap has thrown the AC out of kilter" Fuck you're a dumb cunt!

One minute you're jizzing over your keyboard about the abilities of the F50, about how exciting the last AC was, and now the whole foiling aspect is crap!? Fuckin hell mate! You need to go get checked for schizophrenia or Bi-polar, or some shit, because jesus you jump around! 

You go on about how slow and dull the IACC boats were, then how exciting the AC50's/ F50's were/ are, and now you wanna go back to boats that don't fly!? FFS!!

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

What a stupid thing to say. No boat in the history of the AC has had a ceiling after one cycle. You can always make a boat go faster, whether it be sailing it differently, or by making modifications. 

"This whole foiling crap has thrown the AC out of kilter" Fuck you're a dumb cunt! One minute you're jizzing over your keyboard about the abilities of the F50, about how exciting the last AC was, and now the whole foiling aspect is crap!? Fuckin hell mate! You need to go get checked for schizophrenia or Bi-polar, or some shit, because jesus you jump around! 

You go on about how slow and dull the IACC boats were, then how exciting the AC50's/ F50's were/ are, and now you wanna go back to boats that don't fly!? FFS!!

The AC 72 did. They were done after one Cycle.

The only way they can keep the AC 75 alive is to downsize them like the AC72 were downsized.

The AC75 will not be sustainable.

The IACC lasted for 15 years which was pretty remarkable. I doubt the AC75 will last that long.

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11 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

ETNZ doesn't have the luxury of choice in this regard. Even Larry with his very deep pockets still bought some sponsors on board. I respect your ideals, but the economic realities of the event mean paying some homage to the money gods.

The fact that TNZ doesn’t have the luxury is part of the problem. They started playing in a game that was almost out of their reach. Now they want to change the game so they can keep playing. Larry, despite spending a lot, went along with Russel on trying to make the whole thing a commercial enterprise. 

The money is needed if you want/need the cup to change from being a bring you best and give it a go, to let’s have lots of regattas in silly looking boats that an audience with a 15 minute time span will lap up. 

The second option is obviously the one you go for. Trotting our pathetic excuses like the world has moved on blah blah blah. It is all just bullshit and jellybeans to excuse what has been done to the cup. 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

What a stupid thing to say. No boat in the history of the AC has had a ceiling after one cycle. You can always make a boat go faster, whether it be sailing it differently, or by making modifications. 

"This whole foiling crap has thrown the AC out of kilter" Fuck you're a dumb cunt! One minute you're jizzing over your keyboard about the abilities of the F50, about how exciting the last AC was, and now the whole foiling aspect is crap!? Fuckin hell mate! You need to go get checked for schizophrenia or Bi-polar, or some shit, because jesus you jump around! 

You go on about how slow and dull the IACC boats were, then how exciting the AC50's/ F50's were/ are, and now you wanna go back to boats that don't fly!? FFS!!

Might I suggest you try not engaging with A4E and see how it goes?

He's like a floater from the last time you emptied the heads, that one that gets stuck in the wake and just keeps swirling... threatening to leave (remember that?) and drifting off as you sigh in relief , but only to pop back up in another eddy, and spin there for dear hope - same turd for a brain, same shit ideas, same stench laden thoughts, same lame pointless existence...

I'm pretty sure you are the last remaining person given them any attention... if you stop, then they will be left alone at the bar shouting at the wall... 

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I agree with @Gissie

The America's Cup has to become a "Challenge Cup" again with a Boat similar to the IACC Class which can be modified and is sustainable for a few Cup Cycles.

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4 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The AC 72 did. They were done after one Cycle.

The only way they can keep the AC 75 alive is to downsize them like the AC72 were downsized.

The AC75 will not be sustainable.

The IACC lasted for 15 years which was pretty remarkable. I doubt the AC75 will last that long.

The AC72 didn't have a ceiling! That boat had major potential, but they chose not to go another cycle because it was too expensive!

And it always got faster. But Oracle took the cup in this direction, and that direction has continued to evolve, and it will continue to evolve.

 

 

 

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

I agree with @Gissie

The America's Cup has to become a "Challenge Cup" again with a Boat similar to the IACC Class which can be modified and is sustainable for a few Cup Cycles.

A big, slow but still expensive dog.

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For the last 4 America's Cups we went from

# 1 A DoG Match between a Cat and a Tri

to

# 2 Flying Wingsail AC 72 Cats

to

# 3 Flying Wingsail AC 50 Cats

to

# 4 Flying AC 75 Monohulls

That's 4 Boat Classes over 11 years. YIKES! That doesn't do the AC anything good by changing the Boat Classes every time a new Defender pops up.

It is also contributing to the low Participation:

1987: 12 Teams

1992: 8 Teams

1995: 7 Teams

2000: 11 Teams

2003: 9 Teams

2007: 11 Teams

2010 (DoG Match): 2 Teams

2013: 3 Teams

2017: 5 Teams

2021: 6 Teams (at most)

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18 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The AC72 didn't have a ceiling! That boat had major potential, but they chose not to go another cycle because it was too expensive!

And it always got faster. But Oracle took the cup in this direction, and that direction has continued to evolve, and it will continue to evolve.

And? The AC75 will be/is as expensive as the AC72 judging by the Budgets of AM, Ineos and Luna Rossa.

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53 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

I agree that the 'design package' idea was highly speculative, and whilst it got some more teams "further down the funnel", it may not actually get them over the line... it will be interesting to see how this pans out... suffice to say ETNZ were not depending on the cash in any event... it was likely more about getting more teams, and some extra beer/sail money...

Right. I think the money had absolutely nothing to do with it. It's obviously going to be hard to get more than 3 teams for the near future and the recent past. Even last time with one-design hulls and wings didn't make any great difference. Having said that my favorite was the '95 defender series with 3 really equal boats that were all equal in different ways and the worst was 34 with 3 challengers. I don't think the number of challengers means shit.

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26 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

 I don't think the number of challengers means shit.

I agree... I think it mainly matters to external stakeholders like Auckland Council, NZ Govt and event sponsors who are interested primarily in quantity as opposed to pure quality racing...

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The package is not about helping teams to win but bringing more teams pretending that they may win.

It's all about the defender trying to make a big event and I have nothing against that. The problem is not here in this AC.

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

For the last 4 America's Cups we went from

# 1 A DoG Match between a Cat and a Tri

to

# 2 Flying Wingsail AC 72 Cats

to

# 3 Flying Wingsail AC 50 Cats

to

# 4 Flying AC 75 Monohulls

That's 4 Boat Classes over 11 years. YIKES! That doesn't do the AC anything good by changing the Boat Classes every time a new Defender pops up.

It is also contributing to the low Participation:

1987: 12 Teams

1992: 8 Teams

1995: 7 Teams

2000: 11 Teams

2003: 9 Teams

2007: 11 Teams

2010 (DoG Match): 2 Teams

2013: 3 Teams

2017: 5 Teams

2021: 6 Teams (at most)

All of that is dribble, and irrelevant.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The package is not about helping teams to win but bringing more teams pretending that they may win.

It's all about the defender trying to make a big event and I have nothing against that. The problem is not here in this AC.

Thats a perfect description of AC35.

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17 hours ago, Gissie said:

This is where we differ. You and Horn want the cup to be a commercial event. With dancing girls and preface races and flashing lights and dozens of competitors and lots of money and exciting racing with forty seven camera angles and money and sponsors and a timetable and... just another fucking regatta on silly trimarans that pretend to be monohulls. 

I liked it as a challenge cup. If it doesn’t get challenged then so be it. That is the point of a challenge cup. Those who want to compete can do so. If you can’t afford it or need to buy obsolete design data to con your sponsors go play in the other regattas. 

It is no longer the plaything of the billionaires that you moan about. It is the plaything of the pros that get paid to be a part of the circus it has become.  Not a shadow of its previous self. But this is the way it has gone and exactly what you and Horn seem to want, a dumbed down spectacle for the masses.

Fair enough, but not my idea of the cup. So I will make your day and drift away again. Let you get on with your little circle jerk with your like minded elk. Waiting for NASCAR on the Water, the greatest show since, well, a couple of years ago. 

Paragraph 3: Exactly why Simeon Tienpon put forward a Dutch entry. 

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11 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

For the last 4 America's Cups we went from

# 1 A DoG Match between a Cat and a Tri

to

# 2 Flying Wingsail AC 72 Cats

to

# 3 Flying Wingsail AC 50 Cats

to

# 4 Flying AC 75 Monohulls

That's 4 Boat Classes over 11 years. YIKES! That doesn't do the AC anything good by changing the Boat Classes every time a new Defender pops up.

It is also contributing to the low Participation:

1987: 12 Teams

1992: 8 Teams

1995: 7 Teams

2000: 11 Teams

2003: 9 Teams

2007: 11 Teams

2010 (DoG Match): 2 Teams

2013: 3 Teams

2017: 5 Teams

2021: 6 Teams (at most)

Just think how prestigious the America’s Cup would be they still used 12 Meters. 

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A4E/dg sailingfanny So looking at your claim... 

 

4 classes over the last four cups including this one on its way and actually the participation numbers have increased..

 

what did participation damage was two pricks with too much money fucking each other over in court and settling for a fuck you DOG match.

one of them your beloved leader from alinghi.. 

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Occurs to me if they do make foil arm assemblies for the 3 late challengers there will be spares if any break.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Occurs to me if they do make foil arm assemblies for the 3 late challengers there will be spares if any break.

^^ The question is to know who is already on the list. But first they have to manufacture it. :)

What is sad is that if it wasn't one design could perhaps see some boats sailing now.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ The question is to know who is already on the list. But first they have to manufacture it. :)

What is sad is that if it wasn't one design could perhaps see some boats sailing now.

Or possibly even later than once the arms ship... we simply don't know... having 4 or more teams having to add this to their design/test/manufacture task list too is less efficient than solving it in advance as one-design element (competence pending) ;-)

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I think it would've been great to see the boats sailing by now, but I also think its better that the teams and the event wait until the boats can be properly built, assembled and tested. 

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6 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Occurs to me if they do make foil arm assemblies for the 3 late challengers there will be spares if any break.

They first need to know if all of the 3 Late Challengers make it to Auckland. Altus & Dutchsail are still very much in doubt as they haven't even started building their AC75. My two Cents are that the proposed ACWS for Cagliari in April 2020 will be postponed yet again for a month or so to give any of the late Challengers more time on the water for Training. These boats are hugely complex & challenging to sail if you believe Max Sirena's quotes that they are less stable than the AC72 Cats we saw in 2013. Everyone back then said the Cats are very demanding and a challenge to sail. Just wait until we see the AC75's who IMO will be less safe compared to the AC 72's. Expect some bodies flying around and capsizes as well.

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Interesting Article regarding Stars & Stripes Team USA, Altus Challenge & DutchSail

https://www.oasport.it/2019/03/vela-americas-cup-2021-i-team-gia-iscritti-e-quelli-ancora-in-bilico-situazione-di-incertezza/

GTran in English

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oasport.it%2F2019%2F03%2Fvela-americas-cup-2021-i-team-gia-iscritti-e-quelli-ancora-in-bilico-situazione-di-incertezza%2F

The Island of Malta has hit a Political Crisis. Government Funding originally planned for the Altus Challenge has been scrubbed. Unless Cataldi finds some Deep pockets soon it's unlikely they will make it.

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Etnz has publicly said middle of year for launch for some time now, until they say differently I expect that's the plan...wait as long as possible as to not enable the xerox teams out there.

Regardless of arms.

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9 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Interesting Article regarding Stars & Stripes Team USA, Altus Challenge & DutchSail

https://www.oasport.it/2019/03/vela-americas-cup-2021-i-team-gia-iscritti-e-quelli-ancora-in-bilico-situazione-di-incertezza/

GTran in English

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oasport.it%2F2019%2F03%2Fvela-americas-cup-2021-i-team-gia-iscritti-e-quelli-ancora-in-bilico-situazione-di-incertezza%2F

The Island of Malta has hit a Political Crisis. Government Funding originally planned for the Altus Challenge has been scrubbed. Unless Cataldi finds some Deep pockets soon it's unlikely they will make it.

Here we go again...its all Malta's fault lol

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22 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Or possibly even later than once the arms ship... we simply don't know... having 4 or more teams having to add this to their design/test/manufacture task list too is less efficient than solving it in advance as one-design element (competence pending) ;-)

Known and known unknown.

We know that LR would not be sailing now

We know that if TNZ had been working with LR in partnership for the arm, which would have been probable, they would not sail now

We can safely guess that team NYYC would be sailing now

We dont know if BA would sail

We know that the others would not.

The fuck up is due to a combination of elements:

- underestimation of the difficulty

- a rule with too many one design pieces, which should not happen in an AC, mainly after claiming we were back to the real AC.

- a protocol where other teams were excluded and could not speak

And please, stop insulting the italians and point them as the culprits.

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You can't know that NYYC would have their own foil arms in place by now... 

And if you claim that you can indeed know that, then you can't take issue with the suggestion that that would demonstrate NYYC being more competent than Persico has been to date in regards to designing, building and shipping foil arms - given that in this scenario you're arguing that NYYC would already have theirs on a sailing boat, whilst Persico is yet to ship any...

Logic man..

.Related image

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TC is desperate to find anything wrong with AC36. Whether it's the boats design, the supplied parts, the time line of events, or issues with the challengers. Seems pretty keen for it to fail, and give us all a big I told you so.

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^ Yup. Bit sad.......

Glad to see he acknowledged that LR would NOT be sailing if left to their own devices - but what to make of 'Stop blaming them for the foil arms not being ready' when it has been acknowledge by COR/D that that is exactly where the blame lies. Thank goodness they got on with it moved beyond that initial snafu....

Note that while TC has been bleating since day one (& AC34 & AC35!), teams are keeping it together

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In the Radio Sport clip Shoebridge states that after the failure "some months before Christmas" the decision was made to redesign for which "there has been more design and engineering input from all the teams". The arms will be late - 6-8 weeks than originally planned...

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Interesting that they had received a call from the Malta Challenge that sounded positive and could possibly put them back in the game. Who cares whether they're competitive or not. Realistically no team apart from Alinghi have ever won the Cup the first time around, and Alinghi had to buy another team to win it. Malta will be highly unlikely to compete with the likes of the Super 3, but if they can pull off at least one win they will be highly respected as Spain were in 95 when they picked up their one and only win against the other bottom of the table team, Sydney 95.

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No one has ever said it would be easy. This is the America's Cup. Get your game on or go home.

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There is an April 30th Deadline to pay the Performance Bond Kevin Shoebridge is referencing to when he talked about the Dutch Challenge. We have to wait until that Day. After that we should who is going to make it to Auckland.

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On 4/10/2019 at 2:54 AM, Horn Rock said:

TC is desperate to find anything wrong with AC36. Whether it's the boats design, the supplied parts, the time line of events, or issues with the challengers. Seems pretty keen for it to fail, and give us all a big I told you so.

I hope that they can sail in May or June, am happy that other teams have some input, feel free to say what I like or not regarding the defender, whoever they are.

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

feel free to say what I like or not regarding the defender

Indeed, you've already labelled the delay in the foil arms a cluster fuck - whatever, I'm not here to censure anyone, but I will push back where I see fit. With respect to the cant and arm parts. ETNZ's plans are bold and ambitious, and not without risk. The timeline leaves very little wiggle room. That they're on track to only be two months late is a pretty good effort imho.

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9 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Indeed, you've already labelled the delay in the foil arms a cluster fuck - whatever, I'm not here to censure anyone, but I will push back where I see fit. With respect to the cant and arm parts. ETNZ's plans are bold and ambitious, and not without risk. The timeline leaves very little wiggle room. That they're on track to only be two months late is a pretty good effort imho.

I would really love to hear you guys defending Oracle for "only" being 3 months late. Seriously? This is a cluster fuck. Every Kiwi on here would be losing their shit if this was Oracle. It would be non-stop Larry this or fucking Russell that. 

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6 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

I would really love to hear you guys defending Oracle for "only" being 3 months late. Seriously? This is a cluster fuck. Every Kiwi on here would be losing their shit if this was Oracle. It would be non-stop Larry this or fucking Russell that. 

Being a couple of months late with some supplied parts is a bit different to changing the entire boat design mid cycle. It's not even comparable.

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53 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

 With respect to the cant and arm parts. ETNZ's plans are bold and ambitious, and not without risk. The timeline leaves very little wiggle room. That they're on track to only be two months late is a pretty good effort imho.

I stand with my terms.

Yes the boat is ambitious, and those who don't try don't make mistakes. However why would you laud ETNZ if they succeed, as other teams now give their input ?

And that doesn't mean that a concept with all the inputs will work, more interesting would have been a design contest, which is about the AC after all.

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

more interesting would have been a design contest,

It is a design contest. When we get to see the boats, discussion will move to the hull shapes, foils, and sail plans - the design elements, and interest in the one design parts will fade, unless of course there are issues with them.

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14 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

why would you laud ETNZ if they succeed, as other teams now give their input ?

Ultimately they're responsible. If it all goes tits up they will get a roasting, not the challengers.

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Just now, Horn Rock said:

Ultimately they're responsible. If it all goes tits up they will get a roasting, not the challengers.

Then some should stop blaming the spaghettis for the mess.

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20 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Then some should stop blaming the spaghettis for the mess.

I wouldn't worry too much about the noise emanating from in here. Among those that matter - Shoey and co - look to be on top of things.

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Per Richard Gladwell: America's Cup Boat built Deadline looms

America's Cup - Build deadline looms

Crunch time is also not too far away for the Late Challengers for the America's Cup - two, in particular, being Malta Altus Challenge and DutchSail, who have yet to commence boat construction.

Ominously a new Protocol change was posted late in the week, which tidies up an ambiguity in the Protocol for those who are in default on entry fee payments.

The Defender, Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron, probably taking the lead from Emirates Team New Zealand appear to have taken a rather relaxed view on when Entry Fees, Late Fees and Performance Bond should be paid. For a Late Challenger, this totals a cool $4million - the same level of Entry Fees that applied for the last America's Cup, except the protocol had no Late Entry fee, neither were there any Late Challenges.

The latest change to the Protocol provides a mechanism for the Arbitration Panel to apply a discretionary penalty depending on the nature and manner of the Fees payment breach. Ultimately the Arbitration Panel can exclude the competitor from the regatta.

 

It also removes the voting eligibility of teams who are behind in their payments - and in particular their ability to vote on AC75 Class rule changes.

For the group of Late Challengers, the rule change is somewhat moot. If they are staying in the Cup, time is starting to run out fast - boat construction needs to get underway - and design work before that, notwithstanding that they may obtain one of Emirates Team New Zealand's packages on offer.

Last week Sail-World featured an interview conducted by the doyen of yachting commentators, Peter Montgomery, with Emirates Team New Zealand's COO, Kevin Shoebridge, and broadcast on Radio Sport.

Shoebridge confirms that the first event in the America's Cup World Series will now be held in Cagliari, Sardinia in April, probably late April, followed by another in June - location likely to be Europe /USA, with another in July, and now a fourth likely for Auckland in August 2020. That is the "favoured" plan at present.

The elongated timetable means that for the Super Teams a the summer of 2019/20 is a more feasible option. As noted in the story with some smart logistics, it should be possible for the two boat teams to position one boat in Auckland and then have the other on the road, so to speak, doing the ACWS circuit.

Part of the decision is whether they want to risk running their race boat on the America's Cup World Series circuit, and incurring the risk of damage while racing or during the pack-in and pack-out phases. Plus there is obviously the dead-time of shipping between venues - 53 days from Auckland to Europe.

Add that up around the circuit, and it is a lot of downtime that most would rather spend working up their raceboat than training in their first launched development boat.

The teams are allowed to launch their second AC75 after February 15, 2020, and if they hit that early date - will have their second boat complete, before they have even raced their first. The way the ACWS circuit was first set up the teams would have been sailing for six months between racing in the first ACWS regatta and that early launch date.

The damage suffered by Emirates Team New Zealand was clearly more than a ``love-tap`` - photo © Emirates Team New Zealand <a target=www.etnzblog.com" />
The damage suffered by Emirates Team New Zealand after a "love tap" underlines the risks involved in practice racing by a team in their race boat. - photo © Emirates Team New Zealand www.etnzblog.com

But looking at it another way, Emirates Team New Zealand only had their first racing experience in the AC50 in the practice sessions just before the start of the 2017 America's Cup. They were shunted in one of those races - underlining the perils of sailing your race boat in practice racing.

The bases in Auckland are due to be handed over to the three Super Teams in August 2019 and from that time they can start building their bases and move in to begin sailing operations. The Luna Rossa base is due to be handed over in September 2019 and is said to be having a spectacular base build to the design of noted Italian architect, octogenarian Renzo Piano.

It is likely to remain as a permanent legacy of the America's Cup.

Viaduct Harbour and Wynyard Point, venue for the 36th America's Cup, Auckland, New Zealand - photo © Wynyard Edge Alliance
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16 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Tienpont says it's exciting and will take only $63M.  S+S says they are ramping up and adding talent. Posting does not imply belief.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12224186

 

Hmmm,

$63M. I disagree with Tienpont that you can be competitive with that. That's only slightly higher than the French had in AC 35 and we know what happened to them. They were the backbenchers.

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Hmmm,

$63M. I disagree with Tienpont that you can be competitive with that. That's only slightly higher than the French had in AC 35 and we know what happened to them. They were the backbenchers.

"I disagree with Tienpont" lol lets see your resume next to his...

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Regarding Malta...here are the two Tweets they posted thus far:

If you believe that crap by ETNZ COO Kevin Shoebridge that Malta Altus is still IN believe it. I don't. Their lastest Official Tweet is from December 8th 2018. That's now almost 5 months ago.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Regarding Malta...here are the two Tweets they posted thus far:

If you believe that crap by ETNZ COO Kevin Shoebridge that Malta Altus is still IN believe it. I don't. Their lastest Official Tweet is from December 8th 2018. That's now almost 5 months ago.

Boo hoo ya little crybaby. No one cares what you believe.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I expect a withdrawal Statement from the Altus Challenge within the next week.

They’re sending it to you personally! :lol:

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1 hour ago, mad said:

They’re sending it to you personally! :lol:

No matter where they sending it they will withdraw:

# 1 They have not enough money

# 2 They have no boatyard where to construct

and # 3 They have no Team

What Shoebridge is trying to sell to the Media here that they're still in it is just a joke & a fools errand.

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

No matter where they sending it they will withdraw:

# 1 They have not enough money

# 2 They have no boatyard where to construct

and # 3 They have no Team

What Shoebridge is trying to sell to the Media here that they're still in it is just a joke & a fools errand.

Its all Malta's fault! lol

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Its all Malta's fault! lol

I think the town idiot has a new name - Malta4Eva!

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Gladwell saying Malta Altus bought the entire Artemis Team is completely a HOAX and wishful thinking.

And the notion that Altus Principal Pasquale Cataldi can put a Financial Package together similar to Tobjorn Tornqvist is such the craziness of all craziness.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Gladwell saying Malta Altus bought the entire Artemis Team is completely a HOAX and wishful thinking.

He didn't say that.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

He didn't say that.

He did:

Malta Altus Challenge has most of the key players identified, along with other key components in place - and are just waiting on finalisation of a funding package. Many of those involved are from the 2017 Louis Vuitton Finalist Artemis Challenge and are expected to have a strong relationship with Artemis Technology and their simulator. They are built on the team "Patron" model in a similar way to Larry Ellison with Oracle Teams USA, Ernesto Bertarelli with Alinghi, and Torbjörn Törnqvist with Artemis Racing.

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3 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

He did:

Malta Altus Challenge has most of the key players identified, along with other key components in place - and are just waiting on finalisation of a funding package. Many of those involved are from the 2017 Louis Vuitton Finalist Artemis Challenge and are expected to have a strong relationship with Artemis Technology and their simulator. They are built on the team "Patron" model in a similar way to Larry Ellison with Oracle Teams USA, Ernesto Bertarelli with Alinghi, and Torbjörn Törnqvist with Artemis Racing.

Read it again. He didn't say that. He said "Many" not all.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Read it again. He didn't say that. He said "Many" not all.

The only Team Members who won't be there are Jensen, Parkinson and Brittle (as they are with Ineos). 95% of the Malta Challenge Crew/Team will come from Artemis IF it comes to pass and that is very bad.

For what do we have these Residency Rules when Cataldi apparently can buy a complete Team? No wonder AM/NYYC & INEOS are very upset and want them eliminated.

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Read it again. He didn't say that. He said "Many" not all.

Ridiculous. There will never be "all" in any team after an AC cycle. Many are all that is left so it would be all of what's left?

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The only Team Members who won't be there are Jensen, Parkinson and Brittle (as they are with Ineos). 95% of the Malta Challenge Crew/Team will come from Artemis IF it comes to pass and that is very bad.

For what do we have these Residency Rules when Cataldi apparently can buy a complete Team? No wonder AM/NYYC & INEOS are very upset and want them eliminated.

AM are international themselves! Half the team is internationals, As are INEOS! They've all bought people. The residency clause is there to ensure those bought spend time residing in the nation that they are representing. 

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2 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Ridiculous. There will never be "all" in any team after an AC cycle. Many are all that is left so it would be all of what's left?

Excatly!

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2 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Ridiculous. There will never be "all" in any team after an AC cycle. Many are all that is left so it would be all of what's left?

Tell your friend that! He said Malta had bought "The entire Artemis team" he was wrong - again.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

AM are international themselves! Half the team is internationals, As are INEOS! They've all bought people. The residency clause is there to ensure those bought spend time residing in the nation that they are representing. 

You are wrong on that:

Jono MacBeth won't be on the Boat, that's a given. Most of Sailors on Ineos will be Brits.

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

AM are international themselves! Half the team is internationals, As are INEOS! They've all bought people. The residency clause is there to ensure those bought spend time residing in the nation that they are representing. 

The Residency Rules are a big shit and waaay too soft if you can triangulate around it that easily and simple. The AC 75 Race Boat will be crewed by 11 People and 8 of them will be in all likelyhood be "Foreigners" IF Altus makes it to the Start Line. And that is really, really bad.

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Yeah, "American Money" is international all right. Full of mercenaries.

But given the geographical distribution of talent DEVELOPMENT can understand.  

I do wonder, if OracleTeamAUS had a different philosophy for a farm team (baseball term) starting back in 2003, US sailing would be any different.  By 2013 they may even have had 2 or 3 'Muricans on board?

Oh probably not. We are forever screwed. We got money other countries got honey.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You are wrong on that:

Jono MacBeth won't be on the Boat, that's a given. Most of Sailors on Ineos will be Brits.

How many foreigners do you see in this team?

I'm betting McBeth will want to be on that boat as much as anyone else, especially given Ashbys success as both Sailing Team Manager and wing trimmer in Bermuda.

https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/team.html#sailing

Mclean - Kiwi

Spence - Aussie

Jensen - Aussie

Newton - Aussie

Parkinson - Aussie

Fernandez - Spanish

McBeth - Manager - Kiwi.

If we exclude management roles like physio, and teams like Rebels, because lets face it, those guys are solely focused on the ESS and youth programs, what do we have left

Ainslie

Mon,

Brittle,

Carr

Scott

Hutton

Hunter

McMillan  

8 Brits. So its pretty much a half and half split, as is American Magic

I'm not saying thats a bad thing, I'm saying pretty much every team will be international. The Residency rules are there to ensure internationals reside in those countries. Will those rules be bent? Probably, it is the AC, but you can't blame ETNZ for that.

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17 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

How many foreigners do you see in this team?

I'm betting McBeth will want to be on that boat as much as anyone else, especially given Ashbys success as both Sailing Team Manager and wing trimmer in Bermuda.

https://www.ineosteamuk.com/en/team.html#sailing

Mclean - Kiwi

Spence - Aussie

Jensen - Aussie

Newton - Aussie

Parkinson - Aussie

Fernandez - Spanish

McBeth - Manager - Kiwi.

If we exclude management roles like physio, and teams like Rebels, because lets face it, those guys are solely focused on the ESS and youth programs, what do we have left

Ainslie

Mon,

Brittle,

Carr

Scott

Hutton

Hunter

McMillan  

8 Brits. So its pretty much a half and half split, as is American Magic

I'm not saying thats a bad thing, I'm saying pretty much every team will be international. The Residency rules are there to ensure internationals reside in those countries. Will those rules be bent? Probably, it is the AC, but you can't blame ETNZ for that.

Wrong,

according to what I've read is that Ben Cornish & Oli Greber are Senior Team Members. They won't sail the ESS in the near future so that means that they are 10 Brits on Ineos.

If you break it down who will sail on the Race Boat it comes to this:

Helmsman: Ben Ainslie (GBR)

Tactician: Giles Scott (GBR)

Main Trimmer: Jensen (Aussie)

Flight Controller: Maybe Nick Hutton (GBR) will do that

Jib Trimmer: Newton (GBR/Aussie; Joey Newton does have Dual Citizenship as far as I know)

Grinders: Bleddyn Mon (GBR), Freddie Carr (GBR), Chris Brittle (GBR), Neil Hunter (GBR), Graeme Spence (Aussie), Xabi Fernandez (Spain)

So in fact only 4 Foreigners will sail on the Race Boat.

MacBeth is waay too old to sail on the Race Boat as Grinder.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Wrong,

according to what I've read is that Ben Cornish & Oli Greber are Senior Team Members. They won't sail the ESS in the near future so that means that they are 10 Brits on Ineos.

If you break it down who will sail on the Race Boat it comes to this:

Helmsman: Ben Ainslie (GBR)

Tactician: Giles Scott (GBR)

Main Trimmer: Jensen (Aussie)

Flight Controller: Maybe Nick Hutton (GBR) will do that

Jib Trimmer: Newton (GBR/Aussie; Joey Newton does have Dual Citizenship as far as I know)

Grinders: Bleddyn Mon (GBR), Freddie Carr (GBR), Chris Brittle (GBR), Neil Hunter (GBR), Graeme Spence (Aussie), Xabi Fernandez (Spain)

So in fact only 4 Foreigners will sail on the Race Boat.

MacBeth is waay too old to sail on the Race Boat as Grinder.

"according to what I've read is that Ben Cornish & Oli Greber are Senior Team Members" Maybe... or maybe they'll decide to have experienced Americas Cup sailors instead. Especially when you have experienced guys like Ainslie does, even if they are internationals, but who knows...not you.

At the end of the day, does it matter? In terms of the rule, ETNZ have introduced a Nationality rule, and a residency rule, the residency rule exists to try to ensure that any internationals spend a prolonged amount of the time residing in the country of their chosen challenge.

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I award the Bickering  Cup to ?  But can you move it to the Bickering Cup Thread please...

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

"according to what I've read is that Ben Cornish & Oli Greber are Senior Team Members" Maybe... or maybe they'll decide to have experienced Americas Cup sailors instead. Especially when you have experienced guys like Ainslie does, even if they are internationals, but who knows...not you.

At the end of the day, does it matter? In terms of the rule, ETNZ have introduced a Nationality rule, and a residency rule, the residency rule exists to try to ensure that any internationals spend a prolonged amount of the time residing in the country of their chosen challenge.

And here lies the problem for the Altus Challenge. I just don't believe Gladwell that Cataldi apparently has the money & bought the Team Members from Artemis. That is just wishful thinking on Gladwell's & Dalton's part. Altus shouldn't be allowed to race in the ACWS & CSS with these Residency & Nationality Rules you mentioned - Period.

Bottom Line:

You have to start building now. Conner says it takes 9 months for an AC 75 to built + subsequent testing & training before you can race in Cagliari in late April 2020.

Also, who will helm the Boat if they make the Start Line? Nathan Outteridge? Quite doubtful! He seems very happy to live in Australia.

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26 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

And here lies the problem for the Altus Challenge. I just don't believe Gladwell that Cataldi apparently has the money & bought the Team Members from Artemis. That is just wishful thinking on Gladwell's & Dalton's part. Altus shouldn't be allowed to race in the ACWS & CSS with these Residency & Nationality Rules you mentioned - Period.

Bottom Line:

You have to start building now. Conner says it takes 9 months for an AC 75 to built + subsequent testing & training before you can race in Cagliari in late April 2020.

Also, who will helm the Boat if they make the Start Line? Nathan Outteridge? Quite doubtful! He seems very happy to live in Australia.

You don't believe Gladwell

You don't believe Shoebridge

You don't believe Tienpont

You don't believe Malta

You don't believe Dalton

Who do you believe? Oh Dennis Connor, because he speaks the truth (but only when he's bagging Malta) haha

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In a few days there will be more information.

But sailing in the Prada cup looks like:

LR

AM

In

SS or du?

One new challenger?

So I am looking wrong at two new challengers?

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At best 4 total.  Not sure what Las Vegas odds on 3 vs 4 would be. 

 

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

You don't believe Gladwell

You don't believe Shoebridge

You don't believe Tienpont

You don't believe Malta

You don't believe Dalton

Who do you believe? Oh Dennis Connor, because he speaks the truth (but only when he's bagging Malta) haha

To be fair you are always wrong so maybe he is basing it on that. By the way can you predict some stock movements for me so I can bet the opposite?

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18 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

To be fair you are always wrong so maybe he is basing it on that. By the way can you predict some stock movements for me so I can bet the opposite?

To be fair he wasn't wrong about who he backed to win the America's Cup - you know, pretty much the only thing that matters being right about, around here anyways

giphy.gif

 

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

To be fair you are always wrong so maybe he is basing it on that. By the way can you predict some stock movements for me so I can bet the opposite?

95, 2000, 2017. Right 3 times. Gonna be right a 4th time in 2021.

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On 4/7/2019 at 1:56 PM, dg_sailingfan said:

For the last 4 America's Cups we went from

# 1 A DoG Match between a Cat and a Tri

to

# 2 Flying Wingsail AC 72 Cats

to

# 3 Flying Wingsail AC 50 Cats

to

# 4 Flying AC 75 Monohulls

That's 4 Boat Classes over 11 years. YIKES! That doesn't do the AC anything good by changing the Boat Classes every time a new Defender pops up.

It is also contributing to the low Participation:

1987: 12 Teams

1992: 8 Teams

1995: 7 Teams

2000: 11 Teams

2003: 9 Teams

2007: 11 Teams

2010 (DoG Match): 2 Teams

2013: 3 Teams

2017: 5 Teams

2021: 6 Teams (at most)

You are missing

1988: 2 teams (Big boat vs the cat)

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3 of those class changes were Larry and Russells doing. They ditched the V5's for the DoG monsters, then introduced the AC72, then the AC62, then the AC50. 

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