Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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32 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

@2Newts,

I really appreciate your writings. You have good Points, so has @WetHog. I've voiced similar opinions a long time ago as well.

The Problem is you're almost talking to walls here from some of these Kiwi Posters. They basically rule the Board here and say YES and AMEN to everything GD/ETNZ does no matter if it's the right opinion or not. And if you call them out on it they change the subject.

Ironically these are now the same people who bashed LE/RC non-stop during AC 34 & 35.

Larry & Russell did some of the things right during the AC 35 Cycle by bringing down the costs therefore getting more Teams involved.

I'm curious what Hamish Ross will say on Friday at Sailing Illustrated. He'll give an update on the other two Late Challengers as well not just on the Altus Challenge. The likelyhood is pretty high that the other two Teams will withdraw as well for the things you have just written.

When GD claimed that there would be 5-8 Teams he was completely out of his tree there IMO.

"Ironically these are now the same people who bashed LE/RC non-stop during AC 34 & 35." - One word - Cheating. Anyone who owns a team, or runs a team that has to cheat to win, deserves to get bashed.

"Larry & Russell did some of the things right during the AC 35 Cycle by bringing down the costs therefore getting more Teams involved" Soft bank wasn't a real team, which is why they folded as soon as Larry quit, and France couldn't survive past Larry helping them out. 

Unfortunately, for all the so called good they did, they undid that by doing too many things wrong.

Including Stars n Stripes and ETNZ, and not including the Dutch and Malta, we have 5 teams. 

 

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1 hour ago, 2Newts said:

I don't understand how @WetHog ignored the question/point. 

From the beginning, and the point of this whole thread, people have been debating how many challengers there will be. GD and lots of people here have been saying it would be in the 5-8 range; others have been saying 3-4. The next layer of discussion has been what will have caused the high or low number of eventual challengers. And the third level of debate has been whether a high or low number of challengers is necessarily good or bad. WH clearly stated that AC75 itself is the proximate cause of a low number of challengers:

To my mind, WH was exactly addressing the issue at hand. 

And, FWIW, my perspective is that the low number of challengers is due to the expense/risk of the AC75 plus the inherent difficulty in getting sponsorship dollars out of Europe for a winter regatta with races taking place at 4am thereby limiting the challenger pool to those backed by deep pocketed individuals; my further perspective is that the low number of challengers is neither good nor bad, it just is what it is and comes naturally after the introduction of an expensive new racing platform. 

To be fair I misread what WH had said somewhat... but I do think there is a fundamental flaw with that argument...see below

So what would have had more challengers? Even if we'd stuck with AC50s there was only likely only 3 challengers, at best 4, and that was keeping the same boats and gear. What decisions could have been made for AC36 that could have resulted in more than that?

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7 hours ago, WetHog said:

it seems reasonable to suggest the well funded teams will be able to absorb an incident similar to what OR had happen, the boat ultimately ending up on its side, and the smaller teams won't.  That was the point I was trying to make.  

I think it's more reasonable to suggest the one thing that no team can absorb, no matter how rich, is the time needed to rebuild in the event of a catastrophic failure in the lead-up to or during racing. I don't think money comes into to it much really.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Barfy does not know what he is talking about, they wear safety harnesses on the F50s now, which does not mean it it is 100% safe and that they all wear it. But barfy exemples are dating from the previous ages. You can see it here.image.png.a94f0a0a14868ac5c44fbe6339ee1ff8.png

I didn't see a lot of harnesses in the bits of SF that I watched. But we are not discussing the bastard child of AC. We were discussing the new boats, and reasons why they may be more or less safe that the AC50. Btw, as mentioned by others, getting dragged at 30 -40 kts is just fucking stupid, as the slack in the system posted seems to indicate. If yur off the stern better to be left clean behind ffs. Could be why not many use them.

 

1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Agreed, however if the AC75 has the kind of crash that we saw with mini frack it will be more dangerous for the crew imo, water is like cement at these speeds.

And again off topic, but well defined cockpits will be much safer. TH said he felt much safer. You are like a broken record.

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Sure but GD said he was bringing the AC back to its roots.  Monohulls and 5-8 Challengers.  Then he drops the AC75.  As a result he gets 3 Challengers.  

It would appear GD was referring to the roots established by Larry and Russell and a number of us eager for a return to an AC32 like event are disappointed.  Or maybe I am the only one who thought he was referring to an AC32 like event.  Regardless, I am disappointed.

WetHog  :ph34r:

I think that some of the esthetics that the defender and cor wanted to bring back were size and for the average sailor to be able to relate to the boat.

You have seen the pics of the spar...check. And folks will relate to the boats at the dock out anyhow, not so much as huge flying spiders tho;)

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

If we had stuck with the AC 50's the 5 Teams of the London Framework Agreement would have been all IN:

Oracle Team USA (Defender)

Artemis Racing

Land Rover BAR

Groupama Team France

SoftBank Team Japan

and then I'm sure

Emirates Team New Zealand would have tried again

Alinghi had expressed interest as well

an Aussie Team perhaps

and Germany might have thrown their hat into the ring as well with experienced Multihull Sailor Roland Gaebler.

Or, change the assumptions dramatically and assume ENTZ still wins but decides to defend in AC50s. Who challenges?

  • BAR (with Ineos or Land Rover I have no idea - Land Rover may have been out no matter what)
  • Team France since the dollars probably would have been ok for a sponsor
  • Oracle, I am sure, if only in part because LE was so invested in seeing this platform become long lasted
  • Artemis on the belief that they were the fastest boat in Bermuda
  • Softbank maybe
  • An Aussie team I'm fairly sure since the dollars would be lower 
  • Alinghi? Would they come back now that LE is not the organizer?
  • Stars & Stripes? Does Canfield successfully raise the smaller total funding? Maybe from RedBull who clearly liked the platform.
  • A team or two using older equipment, the way fringe teams used to challenge in the 12's and the IACC's?
  • A team or two with deep pocketed backers, perhaps out of China or Italy

Almost certainly Luna Rosa does not participate having shown such a dislike of the platform, and American Magic is less likely to participate, but who knows. 

Entonces, I am quite sure that the number of challengers would have been quite a lot higher than 3-4. Lower cost plus known platform overcomes a lot of the time/hemisphere issues. 

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

Sure but GD said he was bringing the AC back to its roots.  Monohulls and 5-8 Challengers.  Then he drops the AC75.  As a result he gets 3 Challengers.  

It would appear GD was referring to the roots established by Larry and Russell and a number of us eager for a return to an AC32 like event are disappointed.  Or maybe I am the only one who thought he was referring to an AC32 like event.  Regardless, I am disappointed.

WetHog  :ph34r:

^ You're not.

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29 minutes ago, barfy said:

And again off topic, but well defined cockpits will be much safer. TH said he felt much safer. You are like a broken record.

The topic is safety, did you miss it ? And TH said he felt safer once foiling only.

As far as the cockpits, they are not closed and may help or not depending on how the boat crashes.  Keep on trolling.

 

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38 minutes ago, barfy said:

You have seen the pics of the spar...check. And folks will relate to the boats at the dock out anyhow, not so much as huge flying spiders tho;)

Another fan bullshit. If the average sailor can't relate to cats he won't relate more to the AC75.

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

T-C,

Does barfy ever know what he is talking about? He is a similar Troll & Clown like Forourselves & rh2600 are in my view.

As you might remember T-C I've already expressed & Voiced my Safety concerns with these new AC 75 Yachts.

Safety Measures should be in place before a single AC 75 touches the water. We shouldn't wait until someone gets hurt cuz that's what happened with Andrew Simpson and the Artemis Team in May 2013. I still can see Andrew's Wife Leigh crying and saying "Why were these lower wind limits & safety recommodations not be put in place earlier."

Correct, you said it from the beginning. I hope this boat will be a success and that sailors with smaller boat will benefit from it, foiling with a soft sail would make it accessible to a lot.  But safety is a major concern with this boat, and I hope no human injuries or worse will happen.

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20 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Or, change the assumptions dramatically and assume ENTZ still wins but decides to defend in AC50s. Who challenges?

  • BAR (with Ineos or Land Rover I have no idea - Land Rover may have been out no matter what)
  • Team France since the dollars probably would have been ok for a sponsor
  • Oracle, I am sure, if only in part because LE was so invested in seeing this platform become long lasted
  • Artemis on the belief that they were the fastest boat in Bermuda
  • Softbank maybe
  • An Aussie team I'm fairly sure since the dollars would be lower 
  • Alinghi? Would they come back now that LE is not the organizer?
  • Stars & Stripes? Does Canfield successfully raise the smaller total funding? Maybe from RedBull who clearly liked the platform.
  • A team or two using older equipment, the way fringe teams used to challenge in the 12's and the IACC's?
  • A team or two with deep pocketed backers, perhaps out of China or Italy

Almost certainly Luna Rosa does not participate having shown such a dislike of the platform, and American Magic is less likely to participate, but who knows. 

Entonces, I am quite sure that the number of challengers would have been quite a lot higher than 3-4. Lower cost plus known platform overcomes a lot of the time/hemisphere issues. 

I see no clear evidence above to confirm there would have been more than 3-4 challengers in the event of AC50s 

The few we can agree on are already in AC36, (excepting OTUSA)... the rest... well... those that want to believe are welcome to do so...

For me Artemis and possibly OTUSA are the only remaining teams that could still be here if this was being sailed in AC50s. I think it's more likely that Artemis would have entered than OTUSA, who may have elected to bail no matter what outcome. We traded them for NYYC in any event so it balances out.

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26 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The topic is safety, did you miss it ? And TH said he felt safer once foiling only.

As far as the cockpits, they are not closed and may help or not depending on how the boat crashes.  Keep on trolling.

 

The topic is how many challengers btw. Wh and I were talking about safety in AC boats before you came in with the wussel circus.

And you have no fucking idea the "they are not closed" cockpits. The crew will be in the cockpit,not running to and fro, and not ending up 10m in the air. Wait until you see the boat until you make one of your famous suppositories and then base your conclusion on your own gaping hole in knowledge.

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24 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Correct, you said it from the beginning. I hope this boat will be a success and that sailors with smaller boat will benefit from it, foiling with a soft sail would make it accessible to a lot.  But safety is a major concern with this boat, and I hope no human injuries or worse will happen.

But you will bring up safety at every turn.

How about them foil arms?

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43 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Comparing the AC 50 to the new AC 75 when it comes to Safety is totally FAULTY for the upteeth time. If you want to compare them then compare to the AC 72 we saw in AC 34.

@barfy & apparently TH claims the AC 75's will be safer. I disagree purely on the Point that the AC 75's will be less stable therefore chances having an OTUSA Type Accident are considerably higher because they have only one hull.

Why do you keep persisting with that line? The AM 38 (which by their own admission is as close to an AC75 as anyone will get right now) has capsized multiple times, and has still continued sailing regularly.

The INEOS Test boat is the same multiple capsizes, some quite violent, yet they never missed a day of training in Spain.

The capsizes/ nosedives we saw with the AC72's were almost always catastrophic. So right now, until we see a full size version, the only measure we have to compare is the AM38, and that has come out of capsizes relatively unscathed, so logic dictates that the 75 should behave the same way.

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51 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Or, change the assumptions dramatically and assume ENTZ still wins but decides to defend in AC50s. Who challenges?

Why assume they would keep using the same boat? It's a design contest first and foremost, why use the same boat again like bda, which was a scaled down version of the first version before they changed it; which was a smaller version of AC 34.

Edit: we live in an era of amazing computer modeling, enabling hundreds of design iterations without laying up one bit of carbon. That's what separates this era from 10 years ago.

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32 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

. I am also told that ETNZ LIED to the 3 Late Entries & mislead them when it came to the costs.

Who at ETNZ lied, what did they say, and to whom?

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38 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You nailed it right here. I said numerous times that the new Boats (AC 75) are too expensive.

Everyone was throwing shit at Ellison & Coutts particularly Bertelli because they downsized the AC 72's for the second go around first to the AC 62 and then the AC 50. I would say: That was the right call to do to get more Teams involved.

I watched some Pressers from AC 34 and Sir Ben Ainslie said numerous times whoever wins AC 34 needs to bring the costs down. Had LE & RC stayed with the AC 72 there would have been only 3 Teams again in AC 35 I think.

Now for AC36 crumpy old Grant has reversed this completely. Instead of costs going down costs going up again hence only 3 Teams again. I am also told that ETNZ LIED to the 3 Late Entries & mislead them when it came to the costs.

They downsized, but they waited until the teams were well into the design phase before doing so, which means, and since there are a few here who like to go on about this, which means any advantage teams may have felt they had by having started their design phase with the AC62 was effectively null and void.

Secondly, to amend the protocol (as the class rule could not be amended or replaced without unanimous consent, and as LR had waived their veto rights so were effectively powerless to stop a majority vote), teams were offered a choice to either downsize to the AC50 and lose Auckland as the qualifier, or stay with the 62 and come to Auckland as agreed and signed by the ACEA Commissioner. The contract was breached between ACEA and ETNZ to hold the qualifier in Auckland, which resulted in the Commissioner being fired from his position, ETNZ filing a complaint against ACEA and the gag rule introduced to prevent the outcome of the complaint being made public. Whether the teams wanted to got to Auckland or not was irrelevant. The inmates did not, and never have run the asylum. No show the qualifier in Auckland, say goodbye to your AC aspirations. 

You are correct in what Ben said regarding costs, but given the size of his budget in Bermuda, its a little hypocritical of Ainslie to complain about costs being high only to have one of the largest team budgets of all the teams, but one of the most disappointing campaigns, and being demolished by a team with a significantly smaller budget.

Costs are relative. What one team spends is not necessarily what another will spend. What success one team has is also not necessarily the success another team will have. This is due to how the teams allocate those costs. Are the costs high? Are the boats expensive? Yes, but its the Americas Cup after all. 

It doesn't matter what class is chosen. Whether it be the AC50, the F50, the AC75, the AC72, or the IACC class, teams will always, ALWAYS spend whatever they feel is necessary to win.

The only way costs can truly be kept down is to have a cap on Team budgets and those budgets constantly monitored by the AC event management.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

They apparently told the 3 Late Entries that you can make the Start Line in Auckland with less than 50M $ which obviously isn't the case. They mislead them.

Who is they, and who did they tell?  You backed off from THEY LIED to They mislead pretty quickly.  Did ETNZ give "the 3 Late Entries"  entire 50$M spec budget spreadsheet?  Where was it wrong?

Worst rumormongering ever.

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Did nobody on the late teams read SA?  Those threads I read to catch up last year led me to believe I'd need to clear $100-$200m in Powerball to have a shot at the LVC, er PC.

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

They = Luna Rossa and particularly Max Sirena.

STOP PRESS! UNRELIABLE ITALIAN WHEELER DEELER IS UNRELIABLE!

 

Hold on a sec.  Didn't you write "ETNZ LIED" above? Now it's Luna Rossa?  You need to get it together kid.

 

 

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Doesn't matter who it is Clean, ETNZ or LR. The fact of the matter is "These Figures existed". They were discussed here in Nov. 2017 either in the Team UK Thread or in the older "Teams" Thread. 

 

Except you wrote above that "ETNZ LIED", so it kind of does matter. 

This ain't fucking tiddlywinks, it's big business. If a team director is going to make big business decisions based on statements of an authorized representative of the Organizer, he'd better have their representations in writing or he's a clown.  Anyone relying on some shit Max Sirena said and then complaining about it later?  That's pretty clownish. 

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20 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Really? How about giving potential Teams a reasonable figure to work with particularly Upstart Teams like Malta Altus, DutchSail or Stars & Stripes?

Who? Max Sirena?  :lol:

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Of Course Max Sirena! He and his clown boss Patrizio Bertelli are in charge of the PRADA CUP or the Challenger Selection Series. They should have the understanding how much money you'll need as an Upstart Team to participate and then provide that to the Late Entry Teams.

Neither Max nor Patrizio gives a flying fuck if anyone shows up.  Inclusivity ain't really their brand.  Isn't that obvious?

As for 'an understanding of how much money you'll need', since when is it an organizers job to build a budget for the competitors?  This ain't no spec series.

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Fuck.  Re #768 Look back at old news stories and see how much teams paid years and years ago with a single class of boat. Lunatic LE reportedly spent $100-200m in 2003 ffs, on an IACC. Even if half of what he forked over was bs overkill, nobody could possibly think $50m would do it now on a brand new class unlike prior ones even if the crew were Sea Scouts working for free to win a merit badge.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

 

you have no fucking idea the "they are not closed" cockpits.

You don't shit either and you bragg these boats will be safe because they have cockpits. barfys logic....

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Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

And you don't shit about it and bragg these boats will be safer because they have cockpits. barfys logic....

They will no doubt be way different than a cat crew position that you need to jump into from above deck level. It's not bragging, please use dictionary app more often. 

It is using logic based on ergonomics. As I said before, wind resistance will dictate a more enclosed cockpit now that there are no tramp crossings . Protection from water geysers and gravity ,(knock downs), will follow.

I don't understand what "shit about it" means.

 

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Hey, she says, throwing gasoline on the fire...

TH said today their scuba divers have them practice regularly being dragged under a chase boat, being sure they can use their oxygen, etc.    

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35 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

they should give an estimate or cost forecast or how much it probably costs to get to the Start Line for an Upstart Team.

 

Luna Rossa should?  Exactly why?

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21 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

fixed.

Sure.another brilliant debate on your part tc. 

Picture etnz testing the cyclors in the tunnel. Then picture slingers standing up on the stupid mountain bike, picture grinders starting out hunkered down then standing up in the airstream for the last half of the race when they ran out of guts.

Now picture a smart team with stations that are molded down under the paint.

Wait and see.

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14 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Luna Rossa should?  Exactly why?

I completely agree with Clean on this. Managers of teams that enter ANY major sporting event are big boys (or should be),

In our sport that includes the likes of AC, The Ocean Race, the Vendee etc. In many cases getting to the start line is just as difficult as being in the event itself. 

It isn't helped with organisers claiming a team can be competitive for much less money than reality. For Example Grant Dalton was quoted as saying you could be competitive for as little as Euro40m (or was it dollars?) If that is the case INEOS are wasting over GBP60m which I really don't think so.

I really feel for the three late entries and I understand perfectly the sort of pressure that they are under. Time is against them, lack of money is against them and the shrinking (or already shrunk) talent pool is against them.

In the lead up to AC32 our club issued a challenge.  We had the seed money for entry, performance bond etc but as the clock ticked down it became clear expected funds required to complete the challenge were less likely to arrive than initially understood. It was a heady, yet incredibly stressful time with finally, not wanting to dishonour the club, the syndicate & most of all The Cup, at 1545 Swiss time on the final day we called ACM and withdrew the challenge.

It was very much a case of 'close but no cigar' and a sad decision but even looking back across the years still the correct decision. Taking part to 'make up the numbers' is seldom cool and usually ends up with egg on your face.

I wish all three teams success in raising the funds - even Euro40m is not chump change and when things need to be done in a rush (assembling a team, building a boat etc) they often cost more. Only saving would be salary costs due to the shortened time scale

Soon it will be too late with insufficient time to build the boat - tick tock!

SS

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11 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

^ You're not.

Of course, but it's a little more complex than some of the puppets ^ would have us believe.

Not sure about the order but the reasons are....

1/ Obligation to LR for AC35 win

2/ Ego and bad faith, (privilege and no sense of sportsmanship, no idea how to lose gracefully and try again). Ernesto did it to LE, LE/RC did it to ETNZ - in spades, even inventing a rival series to compensate all the sailors they could possibly keep from competing in AC36

3/ The lowered reputation, cache, spectacle of the AC - after the billionaires have fucked played with it

4/ Cost and complexity (but that's standard in AC) and fear of the unknown - mostly deriving from 1/ combined with ETNZ's desire to push on (designer's egos?) 

Having already driven one revolution the ETNZ dynasty is trying for a second?

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16 hours ago, rh2600 said:

So what would have had more challengers? 

TP52 type boat?  Thats what I was expecting/hoping for when GD said monohull.  Would have to think getting 5-8 Challengers with a TP52 type boat would of been very possible.  The 3 main Challengers now would of signed up for that and would think at least two of S&S, Dutch and Malta could scrape up enough funds for at least one boat.  Then look to current TP52 teams and maybe a couple of those teams sign up.  And then maybe an established team from AUS gets interested, like the Wild Oats crew.  Hell maybe even old EB and Alinghi decide to return.  And another wild card possibility is some RC44 teams, like Artemis, get interested.  5-8 Challengers feels like a foregone conclusion if a TP52 type boat was chosen.

The AC is never going to come close to competing for fans attention on a global stage like the Olympics, F1 or the World Cup.  Its a niche event sailors follow.  Its time to accept that and for the AC to truly return to its roots.  A match racing competition between nations contested in displacement monohulls the AC's true fans can relate to.  

In addition, I still feel strict nationality rules would go a long way in helping sustain the AC moving into the future.  It would be a lot easier to realize that goal with a displacement monohull.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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25 minutes ago, WetHog said:

TP52 type boat?

Smaller than the old IAAC boats? No way, what a nothing event it would be. It's got to be a decent sized boat for the premium yachting event. The AC50's were too small. It's got to be a 75 footer at least - foiling or non foiling.

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58 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Smaller than the old IAAC boats? No way, what a nothing event it would be. It's got to be a decent sized boat for the premium yachting event. The AC50's were too small. It's got to be a 75 footer at least - foiling or non foiling.

I said TP52 type boat.  So a boat like a TP52 but bigger.  I guess I should of been more clear on that.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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7 hours ago, nav said:

 even inventing a rival series to compensate all the sailors they could possibly keep from competing in AC36



Firstly consider the Deed of Gift that for 160 years has been the parameters for a challenger.

Then the AC36 Protocol 6.2.(c) and put that alongside that it was reported quite some time ago that LE financially aided GGYC.

Then figure out how 6.2 (c) would be inserted in the Protocol for any other reason.

And ask yourself why would either ETNZ or Luna Rossa wish to prevent smaller clubs, younger clubs or clubs with a wealthy benefactor (sorry for that you have to read the whole of 6.2 and 6.2(e) narrows down the deed of gift definition of recognised even further than the deed of gift does itself.

Perhaps they were thinking back to that good old Kiwi benefactor started this sort of stuff with his yacht club run from a Ford Zephyr (Mercury Bay & the Kiwi Big Boat challenge to save you looking it up)

The extra conditions on entry certainly hasn't done much for the rush of challengers now has it! 

Just because they wont let him play their game doesn't mean he shouldn't play his game...…..does it?

 

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I agree with you on that. That guys like Dean Barker & James Spithill can go free shopping at will is very bad. There should be 100% Nationality Rule.

just as the Scottish crew member of the Scottish Challenger, Thistle shouldn't have been able to change his nationality to sail for the defender the next time round, and the next time, and the next time?

His name - Charlie Barr, three time defender for the Americans (naturally), born naturally in Gourock, Scotland- considered one of the greatest skippers of all time - and not just in the AC.

Or Johan Valentijn, Dutch designer, or was that Australian then after doing some work for the British along the way he designed Liberty, the yacht that Dennis Connor lost the cup with in 1983. Of course he had changed . Of course he had become an American by then.

Now to really throw the pebble in the pond, soccer clubs used to recruit the local lads for the team, then they went looking across the nation, nowadays the form the best team with the best players and the entertainment level has rocketed (if you like that sort of thing).

Look at Manchester United - originally all Mancs (no insult intended) then they signed Scots, then heaven forbit Beckham from London. Now there are hardly any Brits in the team any more - or their neighbours across town Man City, and the quality has exploded.

BUT both those clubs are still Mancunian - I dare anyone to suggest otherwise, there's a few thousand at Old Trafford might have a smidgen of an issue with that.

If we always do what we've always done, we will always get what we've always got.

Just stirring -like to get discussions going but nationality is just an accident of birth after all - and I'm a proud Scot.

SS

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2 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I agree with you on that. That guys like Dean Barker & James Spithill can go free shopping at will is very bad. There should be 100% Nationality Rule.

Seems stupid for the Kiwi's to do this though since they provide a lot of the outsourced talent. I can't remember a time when it wasn't this way so why change it? Even the Kiwi's had a foreigner helming their boat in '92. Seems even more ridiculous in the world we live in. I have lived and worked outside of my home country for most of my adult life.

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31 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

The % of US citizens with passports has increased fairly recently. Most still don't have one. May skew our views on nationality rules.

  https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of-americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years-infographic/

 

That's pretty amazing.  I have been using the old numbers

 

 

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I believe, for the America's Cup, there only needs to be;

One strong challenger, if there are more than a race to get the best.

The more cutting edge the better, so as expensive as hell !!

Larry's giant wing on a multihull, was a huge jump forward (in my humble opinion!).  Led to the amazing boats of AC35.

And this design challenge will led to better sails for faster moving boats IMHO, I'm not so sure about the foil arms but time will tell in that.

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I agree with you on that. That guys like Dean Barker & James Spithill can go free shopping at will is very bad. There should be 100% Nationality Rule.

100% nationality is not practical but 75%?  Something along those lines to encourage participation from countries that used to participate in the AC (Australia, Japan, China, Sweden, and France) and new countries.  Also, to avoid a redo of the absurdity that was Oracle Team USA who's Cup winning boat had a distinct Aussie twang coming from it and one American.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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^Oracle Team Australia/OTAUS

Fixed it.

If they had kept "Oracle Racing" I would be less spiteful about it. "Team USA" was spin. 

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On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 6:10 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

They apparently told the 3 Late Entries that you can make the Start Line in Auckland with less than 50M $ which obviously isn't the case. They mislead them.

You are right although I think Grant Dalton actually said Euro40m - same/same!

 

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

So I was right here then! Folks on this Board didn't believe me. I wasn't sure of if that figure came from Dalton or Sirena.

I bet if you looked hard enough you could find the quote. I remember it well because I laughed it was so derisory. I think it read something like "a team can be competitive for Euro 40 million."

Having said that, it is up to individual teams and potential teams to crunch their own numbers just like we had to in the run up to AC32

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I have no idea if it would work under the AC75 rule restrictions, but the later pages in this thread give me a sneaking desire to see a team with no cash enter anyway, turn up with an old displacement mono (Stormvogel for the Dutch, Windward Passage for S&S) throw whatever OD components they need into the bilges to comply with the rules, and then go out and win the AC by finishing races when the foilers are falling over.  :P

 

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4 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I bet if you looked hard enough you could find the quote. I remember it well because I laughed it was so derisory. I think it read something like "a team can be competitive for Euro 40 million."

Having said that, it is up to individual teams and potential teams to crunch their own numbers just like we had to in the run up to AC32

How many of these three teams have/had €40m?

Malta appears to have had nothing, Dutch don't appear to have €1m yet?

S&S bought a design package - I wonder if they've paid in full?

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Gladwell says Malta's AC contrib is the interpretation of the nationality rule (passports).  Victory for mercenaries :)

He also says withdrawal of 1 team has little effect on base development. I guess they hope  development goes too far to scale backb byJuly 1? 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/218071/Malta-Altus-Challenge-exits-2021-Americas-Cup

NZ blames NYYC-instituted arb delays for Malta's problems. Yeah, sure.  

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/boating/113166852/americas-cup-malta-entry-withdraws-from-2021-americas-cup

I read somewhere but now can't find linky allegation that Malta operation did not pay people for "9 months of work" if true someone may find link.

 

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

blames NYYC

hahahahaha

This AC is like the ACs of old!

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Richard Gladwell is blowing up smoke again in a Number of ways. Especially this Phrase he put out:

The first bases are due to be handed over to the Super Teams in August 2019.

That is not to be the case at all. Sir Ben Ainslie has already contradicted that in an Article published by the NZ Herald in Mid May:

After initially planning to be based in Auckland later this year, Ainslie says his team has now been forced to play the waiting game due to construction issues with their site.

"We would have liked to go to New Zealand earlier but it has been a struggle getting the leases on the bases. We still don't have a lease, as it stands.

"There's some problems with some piping that's going in which is between the base and the dock front. This is integral to being able to operate boats in and out of the water.

"We don't think that'll be ready until next January so that's making it problematic to being in New Zealand earlier.

"We probably would have gone out this coming [UK] winter to get some familiarisation time.

"That's a frustration, and a shame for Auckland not having the teams down their earlier but it's out of our hands."

OR..... maybe they figured out how to get the Ben's desperately needed G&T pipe hooked up after all?

Who knows, a lot can happen between mid-May and August!?

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4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Richard Gladwell is blowing up smoke again in a Number of ways. Especially this Phrase he put out:

The first bases are due to be handed over to the Super Teams in August 2019.

That is not to be the case at all. Sir Ben Ainslie has already contradicted that in an Article published by the NZ Herald in Mid May:

After initially planning to be based in Auckland later this year, Ainslie says his team has now been forced to play the waiting game due to construction issues with their site.

"We would have liked to go to New Zealand earlier but it has been a struggle getting the leases on the bases. We still don't have a lease, as it stands.

"There's some problems with some piping that's going in which is between the base and the dock front. This is integral to being able to operate boats in and out of the water.

"We don't think that'll be ready until next January so that's making it problematic to being in New Zealand earlier.

"We probably would have gone out this coming [UK] winter to get some familiarisation time.

"That's a frustration, and a shame for Auckland not having the teams down their earlier but it's out of our hands."

Ainslie is a sailor based in the UK training out of Spain. He’s not a construction specialist. The people on the ground in Auckland have already denied  Ainslies claim and stated they’re ahead of schedule

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^ Nonsense!

That's nothing to do with how each team deals with SECRECY !

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On 5/30/2019 at 8:41 AM, WetHog said:

TP52 type boat?  Thats what I was expecting/hoping for when GD said monohull.  Would have to think getting 5-8 Challengers with a TP52 type boat would of been very possible.  The 3 main Challengers now would of signed up for that and would think at least two of S&S, Dutch and Malta could scrape up enough funds for at least one boat.  Then look to current TP52 teams and maybe a couple of those teams sign up.  And then maybe an established team from AUS gets interested, like the Wild Oats crew.  Hell maybe even old EB and Alinghi decide to return.  And another wild card possibility is some RC44 teams, like Artemis, get interested.  5-8 Challengers feels like a foregone conclusion if a TP52 type boat was chosen.

The AC is never going to come close to competing for fans attention on a global stage like the Olympics, F1 or the World Cup.  Its a niche event sailors follow.  Its time to accept that and for the AC to truly return to its roots.  A match racing competition between nations contested in displacement monohulls the AC's true fans can relate to.  

In addition, I still feel strict nationality rules would go a long way in helping sustain the AC moving into the future.  It would be a lot easier to realize that goal with a displacement monohull.  

WetHog  

6 people liked this post.  Didn’t think I was alone in this opinion but it’s nice to have a bit of confirmation.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Sorry

There are enough regattas now.

AND only one America's Cup.

We would not have seen flying winged boats if it had not been for ETNZ and AC34 ?

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10 hours ago, WetHog said:

6 people liked this post.  Didn’t think I was alone in this opinion but it’s nice to have a bit of confirmation.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I think you will find a lot more support your view, just that many of them have drifted off due to lack of interest. I certainly seldom come here. Partly because the new boats don’t overly interest me and partly because to many of the posters here are unable to consider anything but positive thoughts and prayers. 

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3 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry

There are enough regattas now.

AND only one America's Cup.

We would not have seen flying winged boats if it had not been for ETNZ and AC34 ?

The one America’s Cup is just another regatta now. Winged flyers or not, just another expensive regatta pretending to be special. 

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6 hours ago, Gissie said:

The one America’s Cup is just another regatta now. Winged flyers or not, just another expensive regatta pretending to be special. 

Bitter much? What sports event isn't, or at least trying to be. Nice to see you back tho.

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6 hours ago, Gissie said:

positive thoughts and prayers

OK, I do have a positive thought and would like to pray for you.

Can you tell me how to do that, please, a how to pray for dummies or so?

 

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6 hours ago, Gissie said:

The one America’s Cup is just another regatta now. Winged flyers or not, just another expensive regatta pretending to be special. 

Sorry @Gissie I don't agree.

Prada Cup might be another Regatta (but even than I don't agree).

This twin skin soft sail will be the development that will (or not) be another leap forward for sailing.  Time will tell !!

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10 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry

There are enough regattas now.

AND only one America's Cup.

We would not have seen flying winged boats if it had not been for ETNZ and AC34 ?

Why not? We saw winged cats eons before AC34. We saw flying boats before AC34. In fact the first design to be built as a fully-flying ocean racer with wing mast and double skin sails hit the water in about 1984. Due to the technology of the time it didn't actually end up flying, but the shorthanded guys, C Classers, Mothies and speed sailors were all into the right sort of concepts a long way before anyone in the AC dreamed of them. Given that other areas of the sports created all the concepts and had tried bringing many of them together before, to be thwarted by technological limits, it seems very likely that improvements in technology would have allowed them to develop fully flying winged multis even if the AC never got involved.

After all, the AC normally lags badly in basic concepts. AC sailors didn't invent fin keels, planing big boats, fractional rigs, bendy masts, squaretops, mylar, wing masts, wing sails, foiling, assys, bulb keels, foam core, sloop rigs, genoas, bermudan sloops. AC sailors normally lagged in development; the wonder is not that winged foiling cats were developed but that the AC pioneered them.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

This twin skin soft sail will be the development that will (or not) be another leap forward for sailing.  Time will tell !!

I don't think the AC75s will prove much in that regard as the rule essentially mandates it, so there's no reasonable comparison with other configurations. Dual luff sails have been around for a long time but haven't made it to mainstream sailing. They might make sense given the design parameters of an AC75, but not otherwise. 

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Wot 'e said. It's a concept that is many decades old.  Even if there is a performance increase, it would depend on the parameters. Doubling the sailcloth and much of the hardware will surely cause a dramatic increase in the cost of the sail. Weight will also probably increase, so any extra aerodynamic efficiency would normally have to be traded off against heeling moment, and against the option of just increasing sail area or aspect ratio instead. And a more expensive sail is a recurring expense, unlike other ways of making a boat go quicker. So how many boats will ever bother?

The other interesting thing is that the two AC wing designers who I've read say that double skins are not inherently any better than single skin sails. It would be interesting to know more on that.

 

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24 minutes ago, Curious said:

Wot 'e said. It's a concept that is many decades old.  Even if there is a performance increase, it would depend on the parameters. Doubling the sailcloth and much of the hardware will surely cause a dramatic increase in the cost of the sail. Weight will also probably increase, so any extra aerodynamic efficiency would normally have to be traded off against heeling moment, and against the option of just increasing sail area or aspect ratio instead. And a more expensive sail is a recurring expense, unlike other ways of making a boat go quicker. So how many boats will ever bother?

The other interesting thing is that the two AC wing designers who I've read say that double skins are not inherently any better than single skin sails. It would be interesting to know more on that.

 

Foiling concept was around for decades too... And yet...

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.....and yet the AC utterly ignored it until the Moths proved it could work around a course.

 

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What the AC brings to these concepts is the money to do the development that then drives the cost down to a level where normal yachts can use them.

The teams are probably going to put about a combined 100+ million dollars into twin skin technology that they obviously believe has performance potential, it could easily result in systems that are usable far more widely.  Twin skins have been around for ages, we know they work at least to a certain degree, but making them really work and reliably is simply beyond the resources of most organisations to justify.

The AC does for yachts, what the military does for aviation and spaceflight, provide a ludicrous amount of money to test and refine systems that have real potential but are currently niche, marginally useful or simply too expensive to justify.

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How many  developments that went up from small craft to the AC in recent times have come down in cost and been used by normal yachts?  Maybe a few hundred cat foils?

There were developments in sailcloth, rigging, and gear that came out of ACs and into normal yachts for a few years when AC boats were closer to the normal yacht, but it's hard to find any evidence that overall the AC was much more of a driver of such things than other areas of the sport.

It's hard to see where twin skins have worked, apart from the luffs of some cat rigs.  Nor, as guys like the Oracle wing designers have said publicly, is there any reason why they should work better. There's an idea that because aircraft have thick wings and go fast it's proof that thick skins work better but their foils are working at different angles and have different structural and drag issues. I find that info from actual AC wing designers to be very interesting because it tallies with real life, where twin skins have (as you say) been around for eons and stubbornly refused to actually win races.

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4 hours ago, Boybland said:

The teams are probably going to put about a combined 100+ million dollars into twin skin technology that they obviously believe has performance potential…

They're doing it because the rules mandate it. ;-)

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5 hours ago, RobG said:

They're doing it because the rules mandate it. ;-)

That is the point ;-)

Let us hope they find something the earlier trails didn't.  I think Glen is a driving person and I really respect his foresight.

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I also thought part of the rationale was not to have to crane wings on and off every day while getting some winglike performance characteristics?

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24 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I also thought part of the rationale was not to have to crane wings on and off every day while getting some winglike performance characteristics?

That was my understanding too. Full wing systems were never going to have much trickle down benefiting the rest of the sailing community, twin skins might. So there may well be some trickle down in the future.

I think one of the primary reasons we've not seen a lot of work done on these in the past is that most measurement systems either don't allow twin skin sails or penalise them so heavily that the any benefits are lost, so why pour money into developing the concept further?

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16 hours ago, barfy said:

Bitter much? What sports event isn't, or at least trying to be. Nice to see you back tho.

Not bitter at all, that’s the guy in Fiji. The cup has just moved in a direction I happen to disagree with. Therefore it no longer holds my attention to the same degree. I will continue to drift in and out, but that’s about it. 

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16 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry @Gissie I don't agree.

Prada Cup might be another Regatta (but even than I don't agree).

This twin skin soft sail will be the development that will (or not) be another leap forward for sailing.  Time will tell !!

My reason for it becoming just another regatta is it was always a challenge cup. The only time frame being when someone or group put their hand up and went - I’ll have a piece of that. Then it started up. The bullshit, the secrecy, the event. The first race when you found out where you stood in the bend the rules race. It is no longer that event. Planned events, warm up regattas around the world. One design parts. More and more crazy box rules that less and less can consider building. 

So to me it is now just another regatta. In many ways inferior to many of the others. Those that run each year have an advantage to keep people interested. Having the Cup every four years makes it difficult to keep the punters interested. So they just go to extremes. 

Many we will just have to agree to disagree. I do hope it goes well, just not really my thing any more. And thanks for keeping it polite. Cheers. 

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8 hours ago, RobG said:

They're doing it because the rules mandate it. ;-)

The rules mandate they use it, not that they invest stupid amounts of money, which they will almost certainly do. Although it sounds like your already at a million just for the D spar, this will be a long way away from the total amount spent on each rig.

I possibly could have worded it better and put that the designers believe it has potential, but you get the idea.  Either way we will almost certainly see twin skin sails advance to the point where they work as expected/projected and if we are just a little bit lucky we may see a solution viable for a much wider variety of yachts.

It does seem a common technology path has begun to emerge with recent AC events.

  1. Someone starts using a radical technology in very small boats where costs are lower.
  2. It's prohibitively expensive to test for larger boats so it doesn't proceed much further.
  3. The AC picks it up because it clearly works and stupid amounts of money are available.
  4. That money is then used to refine it to a point where it becomes viable for other larger yachts.
  5. It becomes common place on very small boats and they find some other radical way to get ahead again.

It's probably always been like this, except that up until the more recent events the rules were so restrictive and traditional that the technology refinement and transfer was generally more mundane and far less transformative.

 

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3 hours ago, Woolfy said:

That was my understanding too. Full wing systems were never going to have much trickle down benefiting the rest of the sailing community, twin skins might. So there may well be some trickle down in the future.

I think one of the primary reasons we've not seen a lot of work done on these in the past is that most measurement systems either don't allow twin skin sails or penalise them so heavily that the any benefits are lost, so why pour money into developing the concept further?

But most races aren't under such rules, and the same issue applied to wing masts, assy spinnakers, bowsprits for spinnakers, bulb keels, fully battened mains and short overlap headsails.  There's plenty of races and classes with open rules where such concepts can be applied and, if they work, perfected. Even in the late '80s when the IOR was quite restrictive, boats like the Rocket 31s and 40, the Skiff 38, Modi Khola etc were running round and causing lots of interest with features that were banned under the rules. And classes like 18 Footers, shorthanded multis and pro windsurfers have had lots of money and rules that allow double-surface sails, but despite trials they have never adopted them.

Obviously some new tech requires development but it's also interesting to see how often the really great ideas don't seem to need a lot of time to be developed before they catch on. The assy kite is one classic example - the buzz went around very quickly and lots of people seem to have quickly become very aware of the pluses and minuses and how to develop them.  Compare that to double-surface sails; they have been tried over and over and over again with basically not a single demonstrable, proven success.  Wing masts in monos fall into the same category which may show how easily the aerodynamic advantages of a thick foil can be outweighed by problems such as weight or gust response.   The lesson seems to be that a lot of the time, if something is going to have a big advantage then the potential will be obvious very quickly - and these sails never seem to have shown such potential.

One thing I find really interesting is that there are lots of people who have created double skin sails and soft wings (which claim many of the same features) who have been loudly claiming their rig's superiority, but seem to have a massive problem with something as simple as just turning up to a bunch of local races against good competition to prove their claims on the water.  Personally if someone manages to spend years on end avoiding providing objective proof like race results while still finding the time to do more press releases, then I will take than an an implication that their speed is not as good as their spin. 

I'm not an aerodynamics expert but as noted earlier, some of the real experts have said that there's no inherent advantage in thick foil in sails and that seems to chime with a lot of real-world experience. So it's hard to see why this AC will create any significant breakthrough in the adoption of double-skin sails.

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6 hours ago, Woolfy said:

That was my understanding too. Full wing systems were never going to have much trickle down benefiting the rest of the sailing community, twin skins might. So there may well be some trickle down in the future.
.....................

Tackling this point,  I envisage a big sea freighter with computer controlled wings supplementing it's Diesel with very controllable wind power with the computer minimising the drag when not in use or in bad weather.

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@Curious I seem to remember that all the people who knew about these things said bikes would not work, yet ETNZ had one accummulator not two and most things on the boat worked by oil and they seemed to me to have a significant advantage - not obvious because they rarely used it.  But after the pitchpole they had to for a few legs.

I know nothing bout wing sails, soft or hard, but Glen does and it seems to be him driving this twin skin development.

Time will tell I hope - I wonder if we ever find out all ETNZ's AC35 secrets?

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^^^

Modi Khola now there's a name that brings back fond memories!

Whilst you're right there's plenty of races that don't have the rating restrictions that others have, the vast majority of their campaigns don't have funds to try and develop something like a twin skin system, the other developments you mention were all relatively inexpensive and easily changed out for the norm if it didn't work, even a keel can be remodeled or has good scrap value. A twin track mast and sails are as much use as a chocolate tea cup if they don't work, so any campaign in say the open classes is not going to experiment with and develop further something like that unless they're rolling in it and even the best funded open campaigns aren't.

Until someone really throws cash at the concept we'll never know for certain whether the gain in power is sufficient to justify the cost and up until this AC no-one has.

Personally I'm not convinced that the concept will produce the massive gains in performance that some seem to think it will, but I've no doubt it will produce some gain. Whether the resulting control systems will be practical and cost effective enough for use by the those that don't sail at the top level remains to be seen.

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Kiwing, the cyclors are an outstanding example where time DIDN'T tell, and where a successful innovation worked immediately. The second time the pedal winch concept was used (at least in top level racing) and the first time it was used in that context (on a cat with accumulators) and the result was an AC win!  It can be seen as a perfect example that the potential of major breakthroughs is often apparent right from the go.

So, contrast that with double skin sails, a concept that has been around for about 70 years and been tried repeatedly with no significant success, and perhaps no real success at all.  I'm no expert, and of course there is no doubt that twin skins may work for the AC75 because the aerodynamics of every rig must of course fit the lift/drag requirements of the overall vessel, its apparent wind etc. But it seems almost inevitable that a twin skin rig will be expensive and that it may not trickle down much, if at all.  

One way of looking at it is that design breakthroughs seem to often (or usually) be only 1-2% quicker around the course than existing craft and yet time and time again we see them almost instantly winning or showing convincing potential. The twin skins have never shown proof of that sort of performance advantage yet even if they only double mainsail cost (ignoring the other hardware) then they would seem to be likely to increase cost faster than they increase price. Obviously that is very, very common and yet perhaps it also shows that the potential for trickle down is pretty damn small.

 

PS - It's not a case where "all the people who knew about these things said bikes would not work".   Use the search function - quite a few SAers who also race bikes were saying before that the cyclors could work before the Kiwis started racing with them, especially those who had raced CX or had watched pros do bike changes.

 

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13 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

^^^

Modi Khola now there's a name that brings back fond memories!

Whilst you're right there's plenty of races that don't have the rating restrictions that others have, the vast majority of their campaigns don't have funds to try and develop something like a twin skin system, the other developments you mention were all relatively inexpensive and easily changed out for the norm if it didn't work, even a keel can be remodeled or has good scrap value. A twin track mast and sails are as much use as a chocolate tea cup if they don't work, so any campaign in say the open classes is not going to experiment with and develop further something like that unless they're rolling in it and even the best funded open campaigns aren't.

Until someone really throws cash at the concept we'll never know for certain whether the gain in power is sufficient to justify the cost and up until this AC no-one has.

Personally I'm not convinced that the concept will produce the massive gains in performance that some seem to think it will, but I've no doubt it will produce some gain. Whether the resulting control systems will be practical and cost effective enough for use by the those that don't sail at the top level remains to be seen.

Good post!  MK looked like a sweet boat.  

Yep, the concept may well create a marginal gain for AC boats, but never trickle down.

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On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 8:41 PM, WetHog said:

TP52 type boat?  Thats what I was expecting/hoping for when GD said monohull.  Would have to think getting 5-8 Challengers with a TP52 type boat would of been very possible.  The 3 main Challengers now would of signed up for that and would think at least two of S&S, Dutch and Malta could scrape up enough funds for at least one boat.  Then look to current TP52 teams and maybe a couple of those teams sign up.  And then maybe an established team from AUS gets interested, like the Wild Oats crew.  Hell maybe even old EB and Alinghi decide to return.  And another wild card possibility is some RC44 teams, like Artemis, get interested.  5-8 Challengers feels like a foregone conclusion if a TP52 type boat was chosen.

The AC is never going to come close to competing for fans attention on a global stage like the Olympics, F1 or the World Cup.  Its a niche event sailors follow.  Its time to accept that and for the AC to truly return to its roots.  A match racing competition between nations contested in displacement monohulls the AC's true fans can relate to.  

In addition, I still feel strict nationality rules would go a long way in helping sustain the AC moving into the future.  It would be a lot easier to realize that goal with a displacement monohull.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I missed this when you first put it up Wethog. I completely agree. Any market has a price, be it a Dollar price or a skill price or a technology price. Up the technology and you are bound to up the price. In the case of the current AC the market for the USD100m yacht which looks like an insect and can't even truly match race is looking like 4 customers. The defender and 3 challengers. I don't think the Dutch and S&S will make it - they now have 4 weeks to come up with (and risk) the non-refundable entry cost. Anyone on this forum willing to put that sort of money on the 'black'?

That leaves just GBR, USA & ITA. That just leaves one to back out or suffer irreparable damage in practice or early racing and we (as I have suggested before) wont need a semi final in the Prada Cup.

The cost quoted by Dalts some time ago at Euro40m and Mr Clean just because you didn't read doesn't men he didn't say it - plenty people read that from Richard Gladwell I think and apologies to Richard if it wasn't him - is clearly derisory. No chance the boat, campaign and sallies costs add up to that little.

The technology is way beyond many countries or potential syndicates.

The nationality rules take out another group from the market. There are a number of countries more than wealthy enough to enter a challenger but are young enough in our sport to not have a sufficient 'gene pool' of sailors.

Then there are the rules for challenging clubs, and this one sticks in my throat and I have a number of conspiracy theories on this.

For 160 year or so the Deed of Gift has been accepted (and ruled on a number of occasions all the way up to the New York Supreme Court) as the rules for determining whether a club may - or may not - enter a challenge for the America's Cup.

No club younger than 5 years can (sorry could) challenge.

No club with less than 200 members could challenge.

No club not funded pro rata across its membership could challenge. (What about clubs with full members, crew members, associate members, cadet members, social members all paying different membership fees - there's meat & drink for the lawyers right away.)

I am sure we can all think of clubs, perfectly capable and upstanding clubs that the protocol would disqualify.

Then finally the club has to be recognised by the MNA, a much tighter definition than the Deed itself.

All a far cry from "Any organised yacht club of a foreign country shall always be entitled, though any one or more of its members, to claim the right of sailing a match for this Cup"" so their Protocol additions in effect change the deed of gift's intent by the back door - "it's Life Jim, but not as we know it". - bad boys

Who or what were/are they frightened of?

A TP sized boat would be cool, we would probably end up with something like a TP on steroids. And wait! Perhaps we might see some match racing and some pre-start action and maybe even the odd dial up or two, not properly seen since AC32 and maybe even something approaching the 43 tacks on one leg like Liberty and A2 in 1983. Sorry got carried away but in these things (the AC36 Boats) we will never see action like we saw when Pitbull handed it out to the U-Boat Commander off Valencia

You want speed? close racing? foiling?, stadium racing? or a combination of those things well there was the ESS, there is GC32, M32, SailGP, Moths and more.

AC boats "sailing" a couple of feet in the air is another level of complexity and waving T-foils in the air means they don't even look like proper sailing yachts to the unwashed public.

I fell under AC's spell when Bondy got his teeth into the arse of the NYYC and there have been some amazing ding dongs (on and off the water) since but for all the hype, the current cycle is not, in my view at the moment, not looking too clever at all.

God I hope I'm wrong!

SS

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