Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


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16 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

If only you would listen to your own advice.

If only you'd quit moaning about anything and everything AC36.

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18 hours ago, Forourselves said:

^^^ maybe you should do what the 3 challengers have done and become dead silent too.

Maybe you should stop defending every single ETNZ Action they're doing during the AC36 Cycle.

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They probably are building too many challeger bases, bwahaha

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6 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Maybe you should stop defending every single ETNZ Action they're doing during the AC36 Cycle.

Large_ACF464.jpgteam_nz_celebrate_their_louis_vuitton_viAC1.jpg238fb668-5acc-11e7-ba61-9189acf465bb-780AC75_A.jpg

Americas-Cup-2018-2-RNZYS-1024x683-1024x

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10 hours ago, Forourselves said:

 

 

These are truly great, emotional photos. Thanks for posting them.

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I'm pissed off at myself. 

For months in the other thread (Teams?) I was consistent with my predictions on the low end of the spectrum. For all the exact reasons we are seeing come to life now: cost, talent, technology, timing. Yet then this blasted poll comes and I put my name down for four teams contesting the Prada Cup. Stick with your guns, a-hole!

Yes, something incredible may happen and S&S, Malta, or Holland may make it to the line. But it sure doesn't look that way. Even their websites are dead. Malta and Holland have no mention about the challenge at all on their sites; S&S has a post from two months ago as their 'Latest News' item. 

Meanwhile, props to @Tornado-Cat and the five other pessimists who actually voted "3 - that is no new challengers" when the poll first came out. 

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59 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

I'm pissed off at myself. 

For months in the other thread (Teams?) I was consistent with my predictions on the low end of the spectrum. For all the exact reasons we are seeing come to life now: cost, talent, technology, timing. Yet then this blasted poll comes and I put my name down for four teams contesting the Prada Cup. Stick with your guns, a-hole!

Yes, something incredible may happen and S&S, Malta, or Holland may make it to the line. But it sure doesn't look that way. Even their websites are dead. Malta and Holland have no mention about the challenge at all on their sites; S&S has a post from two months ago as their 'Latest News' item. 

Meanwhile, props to @Tornado-Cat and the five other pessimists who actually voted "3 - that is no new challengers" when the poll first came out. 

@2Newts,

Hi Mate :)

The only way Malta and Holland will make it to the Start Line is if the Protocol is amended. 2 of the 3 Teams won't have a Boat ready to race for the ACWS in Cagliari 2020.

There are Rumors surfacing that ETNZ wants to amend the Protocol allowing 2 of the 3 Entries not to race in Cagliari next year and give them more time until the 2nd Event in June.

The "Headline" of this Thread though is incredibly misleading. It's not about the PRADA CUP at this Point. It's about having a boat ready for the ACWS next year. The Protocol stipulates that you have to race/compete in the ACWS to have any chance of competing in the PRADA CUP or CSS as we know it.

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25 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

There are Rumors surfacing that ETNZ wants to amend the Protocol allowing 2 of the 3 Entries not to race in Cagliari next year and give them more time until the 2nd Event in June.

Even if these teams got the money they would not be competitive, however that would be another blow to the challengers who respected the protocol and are now delayed by the foil arm. However I said from the beginning that the MC would vote in favour of the defender, up to now..... they did.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Even if these teams got the money they would not be competitive, however that would be another blow to the challengers who respected the protocol and are now delayed by the foil arm. However I said from the beginning that the MC would vote in favour of the defender, up to now..... they did.

T-C,

I've got a gut feel that the Dutch Team in particular is waiting for ETNZ to launch their 1st AC 75 before they decide if they continue or not. The same probably applies to the Altus Challenge hence the reason why both Teams have gone completely Radio Silent here.

Like this or not I think ETNZ is really desperate to get the 5M NZ$ Purchase Design Pay by the 3 Late Teams and that's the sole reason why they want to keep these Teams alive.

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Like this or not I think ETNZ is really desperate to get the 5M NZ$ Purchase Design Pay by the 3 Late Teams and that's the sole reason why they want to keep these Teams alive.

5 million? Where did that number come from?

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13 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Even if these teams got the money they would not be competitive

Very very true. The question for the poll was about making the Prada Cup: you said three which, I believe, meant 3+LR, which looks to be right. 

What is so very interesting to me is that most challenger regattas (LV/Prada) have had one or more uncompetitive teams. In cases they were new teams looking for experience to apply to a later cup, sometimes they were quixotic ventures that never had a chance that round or later, but they almost always existed. If this regatta ends up without uncompetitive teams at all it will make for a somewhat different experience. Not necessarily a worse experience for the fan or for the strong teams who don't need to risk breakage in a race against a weak team. 

7 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I think ETNZ is really desperate to get the 5M NZ$ Purchase Design Pay by the 3 Late Teams and that's the sole reason why they want to keep these Teams alive

What's worse from ENTZ's perspective? Forgo the $5mm per weak team and have a smaller regatta of generally stronger teams? Or take $5mm for however many can make even that, deal with all the inevitable subsequent events that cause the weak team(s) to threaten to pull out, figure out a way to support them, then have a larger regatta with a visible divide between the strong and the weak?

Not a fun time to be the event organizing committee. 

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There have been many AC's with teams that are not as competitive as the top teams. Never has that ruined the event. Infact it made the event worth watching. If we only ever wanted competitive teams there would only ever be 4 teams every AC.

95 we had Spain and Sydney 95 who were only competitive against each other and who had to race each other to pick up their first point. 95 was one of the most successful cups in recent memory.

2000 we had Young Australia in a boat which was from the previous generation. We had teams like Aloha and Fast 2000, clearly not as competitive as Prada and America One.

2003 - GBR Challenge, LeDefi Areva, Mascalzone Latino.

2007 - Areva, +39, United Internet Team Germany

2013 - Artemis Racing

2017 - Groupama Team France

None of these teams ruined the event even though they had no chance of winning the Cup.

More teams always makes for a better event.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

There have been many AC's with teams that are not as competitive as the top teams. Never has that ruined the event. Infact it made the event worth watching. If we only ever wanted competitive teams there would only ever be 4 teams every AC.

95 we had Spain and Sydney 95 who were only competitive against each other and who had to race each other to pick up their first point. 95 was one of the most successful cups in recent memory.

2000 we had Young Australia in a boat which was from the previous generation. We had teams like Aloha and Fast 2000, clearly not as competitive as Prada and America One.

2003 - GBR Challenge, LeDefi Areva, Mascalzone Latino.

2007 - Areva, +39, United Internet Team Germany

2013 - Artemis Racing

2017 - Groupama Team France

None of these teams ruined the event even though they had no chance of winning the Cup.

More teams always makes for a better event.

Here lies the "Huge Difference" my friend:

All the Teams you mentioned RESPECTED THE PROTOCOL by paying all the bills & Entry Fees neccessary and complied with all the things the Protocol stipulated.

Of the 3 Late Entries only Stars & Stripes Team USA have paid what they needed to pay, DutchSail & the Altus Challenge didn't per initial the Protocol which was published in September 2017.

Stars & Stripes should be allowed to compete, the other two Teams should - Period AND the Protocol shouldn't be amended further just to let these two Teams in. It's disrespectful to the other Challengers.

I guarantee you if ETNZ is going down this road AM/NYYC will almost certainly appeal it.

Also, ETNZ would need Approval from their CoR Luna Rossa. I would rate LR going along with ETNZ on this one as very unlikely.

All the 3 Late Entries had enough time. They've known the Protocol for almost 18 months now. Enough is enough.

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3 hours ago, Woolfy said:

5 million? Where did that number come from?

Various Articles. Even Richard Gladwell mentioned during his ones.

ETNZ is offering the 3 Late Entries a "Basic Design Package" worth 5M NZ$. The Kiwis seem desperate to get that money even if it means offending the other 3 "Superteams" and that's why the 3 Late Challengers are still alive and running.

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39 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Here lies the "Huge Difference" my friend:

All the Teams you mentioned RESPECTED THE PROTOCOL by paying all the bills & Entry Fees neccessary and complied with all the things the Protocol stipulated.

Of the 3 Late Entries only Stars & Stripes Team USA have paid what they needed to pay, DutchSail & the Altus Challenge didn't per initial the Protocol which was published in September 2017.

Stars & Stripes should be allowed to compete, the other two Teams should - Period AND the Protocol shouldn't be amended further just to let these two Teams in. It's disrespectful to the other Challengers.

I guarantee you if ETNZ is going down this road AM/NYYC will almost certainly appeal it.

Also, ETNZ would need Approval from their CoR Luna Rossa. I would rate LR going along with ETNZ on this one as very unlikely.

All the 3 Late Entries had enough time. They've known the Protocol for almost 18 months now. Enough is enough.

"All the Teams you mentioned RESPECTED THE PROTOCOL by paying all the bills & Entry Fees necessary and complied with all the things the Protocol stipulated"

The only thing they need to respect in regards to the protocol, is that it can be amended at any time by mutual consent between ETNZ/ LR. Upon signing up as a Challenger, they understood and respected this aspect of the protocol. The CoR represents the Challenger group, ultimately, what they say goes in regards to the Challenger group.

If AM wish to challenge it, they can, as any disputes will be sorted out by the Independent Arbitration Panel, as has already been done this cycle.

"Enough is enough" For who? For you? No one cares.

 

 

 

 

 

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‘Super Teams’ ???  Lmao, who came up with that PR hyperbole? Probably home-boy RG? If there will be only 3 Challs eventually going to NZ in late ‘20 then ‘Super’ differentiates them from... who? How silly and stupid.

Btw, what happened to the ‘19 Races that were in the Protocol? Everything looks like dead in the water, for the first AC in a while. No boats, no racing, no significant news. 

Boring!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

It can be amended at any time by mutual consent between ETNZ/ LR.

If AM wish to challenge it, they can, as any disputes will be sorted out by the Independent Arbitration Panel, as has already been done this cycle.

 

My guess is that LR would not accept this new slap on the face and would refuse the mutual consent. In order to win the point TNZ would go to the Arbitration Panel as they ruled for them before. But AM-NYYC, the most penalized, could use its legal firepower. Will DG be willing to take the risk ? I doubt it.

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15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

My guess is that LR would not accept this new slap on the face and would refuse the mutual consent. In order to win the point TNZ would go to the Arbitration Panel as they ruled for them before. But AM-NYYC, the most penalized, could use its legal firepower. Will DG be willing to take the risk ? I doubt it.

Ah TC and his conspiracy theories. What would SA be without them.

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41 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ah TC and his conspiracy theories. What would SA be without them.

So you are part of those who think the AC history happened without conspiracy but with ingenuity :rolleyes:

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So you are part of those who think the AC history happened without conspiracy but with ingenuity :rolleyes:

Depends what part of the term "History" you're talking about. "History" is a very broad term. Thats 168 years of history you're talking about.

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4 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

‘Super Teams’ ???  Lmao, who came up with that PR hyperbole? Probably home-boy RG? If there will be only 3 Challs eventually going to NZ in late ‘20 then ‘Super’ differentiates them from... who? How silly and stupid.

Btw, what happened to the ‘19 Races that were in the Protocol? Everything looks like dead in the water, for the first AC in a while. No boats, no racing, no significant news. 

Boring!

 

 

The mule is the most interesting thing so far, IMHO. Anxious to see the 75's.  This cup has real potential. Perhaps not a big turnout (so), but a novel, intriguing design. All things considered, I give ETNZ a +1.

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5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

‘Super Teams’ ???  Lmao, who came up with that PR hyperbole? Probably home-boy RG? If there will be only 3 Challs eventually going to NZ in late ‘20 then ‘Super’ differentiates them from... who? How silly and stupid.

Btw, what happened to the ‘19 Races that were in the Protocol? Everything looks like dead in the water, for the first AC in a while. No boats, no racing, no significant news. 

Boring!

 

 

Boo hoo. You're like a little kid in the back seat of the car while on a road trip to a family vacation screaming at his parents  "Are we there yet"? Just fucking wait!!

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https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/05/20/americas-cup-late-but-worth-the-wait-2/

he foil arms are an immensely vital piece of equipment. Was there ever a time when it was considered to delay the regatta?

Never, but I know there were people on the outside ranting about this possibility, but they were peddling opinion from a position of ignorance. Looking back to 2013, the AC72 was an aggressive design that went through a period that was very, very difficult. Everybody saw the pitfalls of what happened when things weren’t done properly, and that was a tragedy, but that’s also the game we are playing. With the AC75, we continue to reach further into the unknown, and that is hard to do.

So the situation was never remotely close to being that dire?

No. We go out sailing nearly every day on our 50% scale model boat, the Mule, and I can assure you it’s hard. But I can also assure you that it’s safe as well. However, that doesn’t mean people don’t get hurt. The risk of people being hurt, or even worse, is there, but we deal with risk throughout our lives, whatever we are doing, and plan accordingly. So anybody who said the regatta should have been delayed, at the least, had no idea what they were talking about, and perhaps also were serving another agenda outside of winning the regatta.

But this delay had to have been frustrating.

For sure, we’re all dying to get our hands on these parts so that we can get our big boats going, but throughout we continued to encourage the Challenger of Record, who had taken on the task, and Persico, who was the builder, to be prudent, to make sure it is safe for the teams when it’s delivered.

So yes, the delays were unfortunate, but so be it as this was our one opportunity to get it right, and there still is time to learn how to sail our boats.

Enough with the moaning!

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14 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Ah TC and his conspiracy theories. What would SA be without them.

This isn't a conspiracy Theory. T-C is spot on. Luna Rossa would never accept more Challengers if they have to amend the Protocol for that. Every new Challenger makes it more unlikely they reach the AC Match himself.

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8 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Never, but I know there were people on the outside ranting about this possibility, but they were peddling opinion from a position of ignorance.

He's talking about the lovely couple of local loons TC and A4e. Yur famous guys!! (Or gals).

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14 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Boo hoo. You're like a little kid in the back seat of the car while on a road trip to a family vacation screaming at his parents  "Are we there yet"? Just fucking wait!!

What he is complaining about is no different than what Kiwi fans were bitching about leading up to AC34.  And your reply is on par with what OR fans said in response.  The role reversal is an interesting dynamic though.  

Seriously though think about it.  OR introduces a radical new boat design and trumpets what a great AC village will be constructed on re-purposed city docks then few Challengers materialize and the AC village is moved and changed as a result.  Now ETNZ introduces a radical new boat design and trumpets 7-8 Challengers and a fantastic re-purpose of stinky/ugly tank farms and few Challengers show up.  The irony is delicious.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

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15 minutes ago, WetHog said:

What he is complaining about is no different than what Kiwi fans were bitching about leading up to AC34.  And your reply is on par with what OR fans said in response.  The role reversal is an interesting dynamic though.  

Seriously though think about it.  OR introduces a radical new boat design and trumpets what a great AC village will be constructed on re-purposed city docks then few Challengers materialize and the AC village is moved and changed as a result.  Now ETNZ introduces a radical new boat design and trumpets 7-8 Challengers and a fantastic re-purpose of stinky/ugly tank farms and few Challengers show up.  The irony is delicious.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

You nailed it WetHog especially the "Bitching Part":D

Forourselves and his little Kiwi Trolls like rh, Indio, Jaysper, barfy were bitching non-stop during AC 34 and also AC 35.

But guess what: When T-C or I do it its called "Concerted Effort throwing shade onto the AC"

These Kiwi Trolls really need to develop a thicker skin here.

SailingAnarchy is a Worldwide Discussion Forum and not a Kiwi/ETNZ Forum.

If they want a "Kiwis only Forum" they should create one somewhere else a leave SA alone!

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You nailed it WetHog especially the "Bitching Part":D

Forourselves and his little Kiwi Trolls like rh, Indio, Jaysper, barfy were bitching non-stop during AC 34 and also AC 35.

But guess what: When T-C or I do it its called "Concerted Effort throwing shade onto the AC"

These Kiwi Trolls really need to develop a thicker skin here.

SailingAnarchy is a Worldwide Discussion Forum and not a Kiwi/ETNZ Forum.

If they want a "Kiwis only Forum" they should create one somewhere else a leave SA alone!

Haha "Bitching" the problem I have with that statement is, everything we "Bitched" about, were the same things Dalton was "Bitching" about, which ultimately went to the Arbitration panel where ETNZ won their case, the Commissioner was fired over, ETNZ and were quietly reimbursed for.

Its only "theory" if its not true. Unfortunately for you idiots, it was true. All of it. 

You can call it bitching all you like, but it was all true.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

You can call it bitching all you like, but it was all true.

Clearly a shoe on the other foot situation and enjoyable to see Kiwi fans get back what they dished out 6 years ago.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This isn't a conspiracy Theory. T-C is spot on. Luna Rossa would never accept more Challengers if they have to amend the Protocol for that. Every new Challenger makes it more unlikely they reach the AC Match himself.

Patrizio Bertelli himself made a special trip to NZ a few eeks ago, to negotiate the amendments to the protocol which allowed the new challengers to participate because he knows it doesn't end with winning. Should he win, it will then be up to him to put on a successful event, meaning he needs to maintain working relationships with current and potential challengers in order for his event to be successful. There is a bigger picture. It doesn't end when you win, its only the beginning.

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

Clearly a shoe on the other foot situation and enjoyable to see Kiwi fans get back what they dished out 6 years ago.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Agreed!

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

Clearly a shoe on the other foot situation and enjoyable to see Kiwi fans get back what they dished out 6 years ago.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Clearly sour grapes from you. Enjoyable to see your little band of haters exposed as trolls.

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

Agreed!

Haha you're still an idiot.

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It's a real estate development conspiracy to redevelop more of the Auckland base areas and open them to other uses later on. 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Clearly sour grapes from you. Enjoyable to see your little band of haters exposed as trolls.

My give a shit level is at an all time low, has been since OR took the Cup defense to Bermuda, so not sure how I have sour grapes. 

Nice try though.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Patrizio Bertelli himself made a special trip to NZ a few eeks ago, to negotiate the amendments to the protocol which allowed the new challengers to participate because he knows it doesn't end with winning. Should he win, it will then be up to him to put on a successful event, meaning he needs to maintain working relationships with current and potential challengers in order for his event to be successful. There is a bigger picture. It doesn't end when you win, its only the beginning.

You're absolutely hilarious! PB only renegotiated the Bills & Entry Fees, etc. but you can't compete or race with NOTHING and like it or not the Altus Challenge AND DutchSail have no boat at the moment. Worse, both Teams haven't even started building an AC 75.

Maybe Santa is going to built their AC 75...hahahaha.

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Just now, WetHog said:

My give a shit level is at an all time low, has been since OR took the Cup defense to Bermuda, so not sure how I have sour grapes. 

Nice try though.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

You obviously do give a shit...because here you are.

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

You're absolutely hilarious! PB only renegotiated the Bills & Entry Fees, etc. but you can't compete or race with NOTHING and like it or not the Altus Challenge AND DutchSail have have no boat at the moment. Worse, both Teams haven't even started building an AC 75.

Maybe Santa is going to built their AC 75...hahahaha.

I see you've re-phrased you rhetoric... a few days ago, it was "they're DEAD" now its "Oh they've got no boat at the moment" 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

You obviously do give a shit...because here you are.

I said it was at an all time low not zero.  If you had been around here up until AC35 you'd understand that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

I said it was at an all time low not zero.  If you had been around here up until AC35 you'd understand that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

I don't give a shit about whether you give a shit. But here you are bagging Kiwi fans about the shoe being on the other foot, when its clear what was happening at that time was not within the rules anyway. And thats exactly the way it was ruled by the Arbitration panel at the time, So you should be agreeing with me. 

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5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

I see you've re-phrased you rhetoric... a few days ago, it was "they're DEAD" now its "Oh they've got no boat at the moment" 

They are DEAD if they have no boat. They would need to start building their AC 75 by now but all Indications are that they haven't even stated.

Is Simeon Tienpont asking the "Holy Ghost or Santa or an Easter Bunny" to built his AC 75?

Hahahaha

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1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

They are DEAD if they have no boat. They would need to start building their AC 75 by now but all Indications are that they haven't even stated.

Is Simeon Tienpont asking the "Holy Ghost or Santa or an Easter Bunny" to built his AC 75?

Hahahaha

Unless a protocol amendment is imminent?

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

I don't give a shit about whether you give a shit. But here you are bagging Kiwi fans about the shoe being on the other foot, when its clear what was happening at that time was not within the rules anyway. And thats exactly the way it was ruled by the Arbitration panel at the time, So you should be agreeing with me. 

You call it "bagging" and I call it highlighting hypocrisy.  To each his/her own.

My comparison between the two revolved around the introduction of new boats, team bases and the number of teams that ultimately participated not sure what an arbitration panel has to do with any of that but please feel free to refresh my memory because I don't remember what arbitration panel decision took place during AC34 and I wasn't paying attention when the arbitration panel made a decision recently.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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4 minutes ago, WetHog said:

You call it "bagging" and I call it highlighting hypocrisy.  To each his/her own.

My comparison between the two revolved around the introduction of new boats, team bases and the number of teams that ultimately participated not sure what an arbitration panel has to do with any of that but please feel free to refresh my memory because I don't remember what arbitration panel decision took place during AC34 and I wasn't paying attention when the arbitration panel made a decision recently.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

AC34? That was 6 years ago! There's been another cycle between AC34 and AC36. Time to let it go.

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Unless a protocol amendment is imminent?

If there is an protocol amendment imminent surely your so-called "Super Journalist Richard Gladwell" would have some scoop BUT ominously Gladwell has gone completely silent on the 3 Late Entries.

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

If there is an protocol amendment imminent surely your so-called "Super Journalist Richard Gladwell" would have some scoop BUT ominously Gladwell has gone completely silent on the 3 Late Entries.

And?

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

AC34? That was 6 years ago! There's been another cycle between AC34 and AC36. Time to let it go.

I have for the most part but every once in a while, like now, its nice to remind Kiwi fans.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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23 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

It's a real estate development conspiracy to redevelop more of the Auckland base areas and open them to other uses later on. 

As has been for allegedly all modern ACs.

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

And?

Suggesting to me that things do not look good. I wonder how much longer particularly the Dutch & Malta can push the Boat Building Deadline?

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17 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Suggesting to me that things do not look good. I wonder how much longer particularly the Dutch & Malta can push the Boat Building Deadline?

Nothing about this has ever looked good to you, the boat is crap to you, the venue is too far away from Europe to be viable, the TV coverage will never be as good as Stan Honeys live line, all skippers are liars, Bertelli is Daltons poodle, Dalton is Bertellis poodle, and you wish everything bad for AC36.

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

and a fantastic re-purpose of stinky/ugly tank farms and few Challengers show up.  The irony is delicious.  

Well, the best outcome is as you say, removal ( not really repurpose), of a legacy polluted storage facility.  That's great for the future in Auckland.

And what is possibly ironic is that the defender is based only 2 blocks from the concrete pad that they challenged from last cycle, and they didn't take the cup to a submissive tax dodge country and extort them for whatever the market would bear. . And don't even think of comparing nz,s and Aucklands support for their national team.

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Tom Ehman just announced LIVE on his FB Show that 2 of the 3 Late Entries are indeed DONE & DEAD as I said previously. Also, Emirates Team New Zealand is desperately trying to keep the Stars & Stripes Team USA in the Cup.

There will be a big Friday Show where he will announce who is IN and who is OUT.

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I propose that we make another poll. TE is telling us that 2 of the late 3 entries are dead while those who told us that the F50 would not sail tell us that LR might agree to change the protocol another time to make them alive. Who do you believe ?

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45 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I propose that we make another poll. TE is telling us that 2 of the late 3 entries are dead while those who told us that the F50 would not sail tell us that LR might agree to change the protocol another time to make them alive. Who do you believe ?

Well don't believe the guys who said ETNZ won't win the Cup by staying in Auckland instead of going to Bermuda where they are missing out on valuable training time against the other teams.

Don't believe the guys who said bikes won't make a difference. 

Don't believe the guys who said Spithill would eat Burling for breakfast in the pre-starts.

Don't believe the guys who said a foiling monohull would never work.

Don't believe the guys who said AM felt ripped off when the foiling arms broke and had to be redesigned.

Besides, F50 hasn't lived up to its billing and isn't even the subject of this thread. Lord knows how the cry babies in the Larrys circus thread throw their toys when you talk about anything except the disappointment that is the F50. (You know who you are, and come on, you deserved that one)

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^Cheer up, Four, maybe as the SailGP series goes on, rumors will start that a team is managing to "customize" their boat despite RC's watchful eye in order to beat Australia. ;)

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4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Besides, F50 hasn't lived up to its billing and isn't even the subject of this thread.

Bitter F, the sailors say the F50 first version is already better than the AC50, I trust them more than you. If NAC is right one team already customized a better V1.1, and w'll probably have a V2 next season. The F50 is the best ever foiler up to now, let's wait what the AC75 will fare.

And for the rest you are wrong because you were not existing at the time, perhaps under the clarkey sockpuppet or another one though...

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On 5/18/2019 at 11:12 PM, Forourselves said:

If only you'd quit moaning about anything and everything AC36.

Good to see you're off the rails again. What have I been moaning about AC36? I am just glad it's not a one-design like the last cup. If you want to see moaning go look at your posts in the SailGP thread. 

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

Good to see you're off the rails again. What have I been moaning about AC36? I am just glad it's not a one-design like the last cup. If you want to see moaning go look at your posts in the SailGP thread. 

I don't care to go back and look, but suffice to say you havent exactly been accepting of much to do with this cup.

SailGP is crap, which is why I haven't been there in a couple of weeks. Funny that most of the discussion in the sailGP thread has been about the AC, even though SailGP fans insist that it has nothing to do with the AC, but refuse to move it because they know without the AC, SailGP would be irrelevant.

 

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15 hours ago, barfy said:

Well, the best outcome is as you say, removal ( not really repurpose), of a legacy polluted storage facility.  That's great for the future in Auckland.

And what is possibly ironic is that the defender is based only 2 blocks from the concrete pad that they challenged from last cycle, and they didn't take the cup to a submissive tax dodge country and extort them for whatever the market would bear. . And don't even think of comparing nz,s and Aucklands support for their national team.

My irony comment dealt with OR's first cycle as Defender where they radically changed the boat, proclaimed many teams would challenge, had grand plans for re-purposing old infrastructure and as a result of few Challengers participating had to change their plans.  And how Kiwi fans at that time relentlessly bitched/complained/bagged throughout that Cup cycle.  Now the shoe is on the other foot, AC36 is playing out a lot like AC34 did based on what I described above and Kiwi fans find themselves in OR fans shoes.  Thats it and thats all.  Nothing about who supports what and certainly nothing to do with AC35.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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14 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Don't believe the guys who said a foiling monohull would never work.

Foiling 75 foot monohulls work in an AC format race?  This was established and I missed it?  Can I get a link to this proof?

Not saying that they won't work just that I haven't seen it demonstrated on actual water in a blow.  And I have been paying attention.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

My irony comment dealt with OR's first cycle as Defender where they radically changed the boat, proclaimed many teams would challenge, had grand plans for re-purposing old infrastructure and as a result of few Challengers participating had to change their plans.  And how Kiwi fans at that time relentlessly bitched/complained/bagged throughout that Cup cycle.  Now the shoe is on the other foot, AC36 is playing out a lot like AC34 did based on what I described above and Kiwi fans find themselves in OR fans shoes.  Thats it and thats all.  Nothing about who supports what and certainly nothing to do with AC35.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Ok. Ac34 then. So everything that pissed off SF was to do with fewer challs? And I don't pretend to know the politics of the debrief in SF, just that they were not likely to play a second time.

As I remember most of the bagging was around the confusion of the response to the tragic and publicly catastrophic accident. Oh, maybe being caught cheating as well. But I was too awed by the flying boat to be very pissed off.

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2 hours ago, barfy said:

Ok. Ac34 then. So everything that pissed off SF was to do with fewer challs? And I don't pretend to know the politics of the debrief in SF, just that they were not likely to play a second time.

As I remember most of the bagging was around the confusion of the response to the tragic and publicly catastrophic accident. Oh, maybe being caught cheating as well. But I was too awed by the flying boat to be very pissed off.

There was a lot of bagging from Kiwi fans about a lot of things.  The same is true about this cycle isn't it?  Again, I am talking about what I described above.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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On 5/23/2019 at 1:01 AM, WetHog said:

Foiling 75 foot monohulls work in an AC format race?  This was established and I missed it?  Can I get a link to this proof?

Not saying that they won't work just that I haven't seen it demonstrated on actual water in a blow.  And I have been paying attention.

WetHog  :ph34r:

No one thought the AC72's were able to match race, and they did. The AC75's will be the same.

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On 5/23/2019 at 12:58 AM, WetHog said:

My irony comment dealt with OR's first cycle as Defender where they radically changed the boat, proclaimed many teams would challenge, had grand plans for re-purposing old infrastructure and as a result of few Challengers participating had to change their plans.  And how Kiwi fans at that time relentlessly bitched/complained/bagged throughout that Cup cycle.  Now the shoe is on the other foot, AC36 is playing out a lot like AC34 did based on what I described above and Kiwi fans find themselves in OR fans shoes.  Thats it and thats all.  Nothing about who supports what and certainly nothing to do with AC35.

WetHog  :ph34r:

The shoe isn't on he other foot though. You're comparing 2 different scenario's and trying to say they're the same. In 2007, the AC had just been through a resurgence in teams, interest and spectators. Since 1987 the cup had flourished and had moved from the realm of the billionaire pissing contest to a sporting contest between nations. It had seen many challengers, and fans were supporting it as a top tier sailing competition. 

Fast forward to 2013, and Larry and Ernesto, through their court battles, and after all the great work many people had done to turn the event around decided to drag the event once more through the courts, eliminating existing and potential challengers and damaging the reputation and image of the event, as well as switching many fans off the event.

The rhetoric from Larry during the court battle, was that he was fighting the good fight on behalf of all challengers. When he won the Cup he made promises, and had the responsibility of returning the cup to its glory days after dragging it through court. He came up with a plan to bring the interest back by introducing 72 ft Multihulls, which turned even more competitors away due to the expense and also the fact that Monohulls were still the preferred option at that stage.

 Unfortunately for him, the post court battle Americas Cup image was so damaged that no one wanted to compete, and fans had lost interest in the event. This was before his team had been caught cheating and spying on its opposition.

It was only due to ETNZ in large part, with their introduction of foiling, their almost weekly video releases and their ability to maintain relationships with teams like Luna Rossa, that the event was somewhat saved.

in 2017, Larry was up to his old tricks once again, and the event had seen 2 Challengers of Record withdraw, a Commissioner fired from his role before the event started due to breach of contract issues regarding a Qualifier event, ETNZ financially compensated for that breach, and a gag issue ordered which prevented teams from disclosing the outcome of that arbitration decision, not to mention, an embarrassing defeat by a team of rookies.

Fast forward to 2017, and ETNZ is still trying to undo and fix the damage the Ellison era has inflicted on the AC. They are 2 different, and incomparable scenarios. One ruined the reputation of the event, the other is tasked with trying to fix it. They aren't the same, and therefor, the shoe is not on the other foot.

 

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They're trying to fix it (as Larry proposed to do as well back then), but they chose the wrong vehicle for it - a very expensive boat that probably kept potential challengers away too. So, instead of making it easy to enter, they set the technical barriers as high as LE et al. with the AC72 - with a similar result in challenger numbers.

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:19 AM, Rennmaus said:

They're trying to fix it (as Larry proposed to do as well back then), but they chose the wrong vehicle for it - a very expensive boat that probably kept potential challengers away too. So, instead of making it easy to enter, they set the technical barriers as high as LE et al. with the AC72 - with a similar result in challenger numbers.

Larry wrecked it, then couldn't repair the damage they inflicted. In terms of the AC72, that remains to be seen. There's no denying they are expensive, but they are also revolutionary and exciting. Nothing like this has been seen before. 

Myself, I would rather see big boats, and strong teams with full crews. The 50's were too small, and 5 crew just doesn't cut the mustard in an Americas Cup. 

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History question: so if EB had an undisputably legit CoR for AC33, and the DoG match never ensued, were they keeping the IACC  class or if not  what were they intending to use?

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:37 AM, NeedAClew said:

History question: so if EB had an undisputably legit CoR for AC33, and the DoG match never ensued, were they keeping the IACC  class or if not  what were they intending to use?

The AC90 and it would've been expensive and awesome too! Another reason Larry wanted to get away from Monohulls, because Ernesto had the greatest Monohull sailing team in the world at that time, New Zealand had the next best team, and Patrizio Bertelli had the next best after that. Larry wasn't going to get a look in with the AC90, so multihulls it was.

 

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8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Larry wrecked it, then couldn't repair the damage they inflicted. In terms of the AC72, that remains to be seen. There's no denying they are expensive, but they are also revolutionary and exciting. Nothing like this has been seen before. 

Myself, I would rather see big boats, and strong teams with full crews. The 50's were too small, and 5 crew just doesn't cut the mustard in an Americas Cup. 

Not quite, I really meant that LE set the technical barrier high with the AC72, similar to today's AC75 by ETNZ. You confused the boats (and I should have phrased it differently, as I just see my post was easy to be misunderstood), so my post should not have made much sense to you.

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It's certainly true that LE had had trouble getting through Challenger selection series. Can see how the AC90 would have looked vexing.  

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:41 AM, Rennmaus said:

Not quite, I really meant that LE set the technical barrier high with the AC72, similar to today's AC75 by ETNZ. You confused the boats (and I should have phrased it differently, as I just see my post was easy to be misunderstood), so my post should not have made much sense to you.

Agreed. The introduction of the AC72 definitely raised the technical barrier. Probably further than it should've been at that time.

The AC90 probably would've raised the technical barrier to an acceptable level at that time, especially given the success the event was enjoying at that time. But we'll never know. 

The AC75 came about through compromise. ETNZ/ LR always stated they had a preference for Monohulls as opposed to Multihulls, so it was never going to be a multihull, but since the introduction of foiling, there was no way they could go back to the slow, heavy IACC class, or go with a small but light monohull like an RC44. To stay at the bleeding edge of technology a fully crewed foiling Monohull was the answer they came up with.

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54 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The shoe isn't on he other foot though. You're comparing 2 different scenario's and trying to say they're the same. In 2007, the AC had just been through a resurgence in teams, interest and spectators. Since 1987 the cup had flourished and had moved from the realm of the billionaire pissing contest to a sporting contest between nations. It had seen many challengers, and fans were supporting it as a top tier sailing competition. 

Fast forward to 2013, and Larry and Ernesto, through their court battles, and after all the great work many people had done to turn the event around decided to drag the event once more through the courts, eliminating existing and potential challengers and damaging the reputation and image of the event, as well as switching many fans off the event.

The rhetoric from Larry during the court battle, was that he was fighting the good fight on behalf of all challengers. When he won the Cup he made promises, and had the responsibility of returning the cup to its glory days after dragging it through court. He came up with a plan to bring the interest back by introducing 72 ft Multihulls, which turned even more competitors away due to the expense and also the fact that Monohulls were still the preferred option at that stage.

 Unfortunately for him, the post court battle Americas Cup image was so damaged that no one wanted to compete, and fans had lost interest in the event. This was before his team had been caught cheating and spying on its opposition.

It was only due to ETNZ in large part, with their introduction of foiling, their almost weekly video releases and their ability to maintain relationships with teams like Luna Rossa, that the event was somewhat saved.

in 2017, Larry was up to his old tricks once again, and the event had seen 2 Challengers of Record withdraw, a Commissioner fired from his role before the event started due to breach of contract issues regarding a Qualifier event, ETNZ financially compensated for that breach, and a gag issue ordered which prevented teams from disclosing the outcome of that arbitration decision, not to mention, an embarrassing defeat by a team of rookies.

Fast forward to 2017, and ETNZ is still trying to undo and fix the damage the Ellison era has inflicted on the AC. They are 2 different, and incomparable scenarios. One ruined the reputation of the event, the other is tasked with trying to fix it. They aren't the same, and therefor, the shoe is not on the other foot.

 

You better proof to us all that the AC 75 are not as expensive as AC 72. Once again you make a claim and can't back it up.

Ben Ainslie & Terry Hutchinson said repeatedly that the AC 75 by ETNZ will be as expensive as the AC 72 proposed by LE/RC.

The AC 75 are the reason we have the same Number of Challengers as in AC34.

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

There was a lot of bagging from Kiwi fans about a lot of things.  The same is true about this cycle isn't it?  Again, I am talking about what I described above.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

49 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Defender where they radically changed the boat, proclaimed many teams would challenge, had grand plans for re-purposing old infrastructure and as a result of few Challengers participating had to change their plans.  And how Kiwi fans at that time relentles

Ok, so what you are describing"above" is plan changes on infrastructure? Really not sure that matters to anyone. Like some spots on the wharf won't be full, but not much has changed.

The bagging was the defender being charged with cheating. Twice. Then some other changes to race conditions that didn't go down well.

This cycle we have collaborative engineering efforts, ( to fix a problem maybe of the cor's making ), no bleating about it by any team so far. Late entries being adjudicated and no one publicly sad with the outcome.

I get that there is always the other foot, but so far this defense has been prettymuch " up the middle" as dalt would say.

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On 5/23/2019 at 9:01 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

You better proof to us all that the AC 75 are not as expensive as AC 72. Once again you make a claim and can't back it up.

Ben Ainslie & Terry Hutchinson said repeatedly that the AC 75 by ETNZ will be as expensive as the AC 72 proposed by LE/RC.

The AC 75 are the reason we have the same Number of Challengers as in AC34.

Once again, learn to read. I never said the AC75 was not as expensive as the AC72. Besides, no one knows how much the teams spend on their boats. How about you prove it to me!? Do you know how much an AC72 costs? Do you know how much an AC75 costs to produce? 

Just as a note, none of the components on the AC72 were supplied. Teams produced ALL of their components themselves. Teams also built their own wings, where the spa is supplied this time around.

Remember, the only reason we had the number of challengers we did in AC34, was thanks to ETNZ, the only reason that cup was as successful as it was, was because of ETNZ, they introduced foiling, they got Luna Rossa to the start line, which means they provided a "Challenger series", if not for them, it would've been Oracle v Artemis Racing in the AC. Artemis struggled to even get to the starting line, it would've been a mismatch that would've ruined the AC even more than it was.

 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

The only reason we had the number of challengers we did in AC34, was thanks to ETNZ, the only reason that cup was as successful as it was, was because of ETNZ, they introduced foiling...blah blah blah

Ah ah, a godspell to Saint Grant from the TNZ parish

TNZ made up the numbers like the other teams, the foiling possibility was introduced by Melvin Morelli, same for the wing.

Reasons of the success were many: big boats, foiling, amazing place, lots of people, ambiance, anarchists, wind, TNZ winning at the beginning, OR come back.

For those who forgot the origin of foiling at the AC:
When Pete Melvin co-wrote the design rule for the AC72 catamaran, he knew there were two distinct areas of development that could determine the winner of the 34th America’s Cup; the hard wing, an aspect of Oracle Team USA’s Cup-winning monster cat brought forward to this new era of Cup technology; and the foils. As it turns out, the 130’ wingsail, initially regarded as the radical innovation of this America’s Cup cycle, was overshadowed by the realization that these giant catamarans could not only foil downwind but upwind.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/17/shaping-foils-re-shaped-americas-cup/

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On 5/23/2019 at 1:04 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

Ah ah, a godspell to Saint Grant from the TNZ parish

TNZ made up the numbers like the other teams, the foiling possibility was introduced by Melvin Morelli, same for the wing.

Reasons of the success were many: big boats, foiling, amazing place, lots of people, ambiance, anarchists, wind, TNZ winning at the beginning, OR come back.

For those who forgot the origin of foiling at the AC:
When Pete Melvin co-wrote the design rule for the AC72 catamaran, he knew there were two distinct areas of development that could determine the winner of the 34th America’s Cup; the hard wing, an aspect of Oracle Team USA’s Cup-winning monster cat brought forward to this new era of Cup technology; and the foils. As it turns out, the 130’ wingsail, initially regarded as the radical innovation of this America’s Cup cycle, was overshadowed by the realization that these giant catamarans could not only foil downwind but upwind.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/09/17/shaping-foils-re-shaped-americas-cup/

Ah ah

 

Unless you're now calling Glenn Ashby a liar too

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The number of hulls is the only difference between the AC72 and the AC75.  And considering the foiling system of the AC75 it is far from a certainty they will prove to be comparable match racing wise to the AC72.  And the AC72 wasn’t that great at match racing.  

Some good examples is prestart action or a dial up at any point in the race.  AC72s could function off their foils at low speed.  Can an AC75?  AM has had issues with their trial boat haven’t they? I think I remember the Brits having issues.  If the AC75 can’t perform in displacement mode that’s a problem.

Early days to be sure but...

WetHog  :ph34r:

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^ I think the soft wing is the major difference!

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30 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

When Pete Melvin co-wrote the design rule for the AC72 catamaran, he knew there were two distinct areas of development that could determine the winner of the 34th America’s Cup; the hard wing, an aspect of Oracle Team USA’s Cup-winning monster cat brought forward to this new era of Cup technology; and the foils.

Sigh... that would be news to the other two teams Oracle and Artemis who actually complained to the International Jury that foiling wasn’t allowed under the Protocol or Class Rule for the AC72, but the case was dismissed.

Further odd given that Melvin was an employee of OTUSA before being contracted by them to draft the class rule for Oracle! So one would assume if foiling was his and Oracle's intention at the time, it would have been apparent to Oracle, who then wouldn't have either been a) behind ETNZ in foil dev, or b) complained it's against the rules they themselves had Melvin write.

Perhaps Melvin's subsequent statements that the class rule didn't exclude foiling was more to do with the fact that Oracle let him go and he wound up at ETNZ right about the time they started foiling. Do you see how this works now? ;-) It's called plausible deniability...

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Another history question: I can find  the AC72 class rule, can someone point me to the prohibit (or not) foiling part? Thanks.

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^There is none.

Which is why, when Oracle and Artemis complained to the Panel, they lost.

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23 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

^There is none.

Which is why, when Oracle and Artemis complained to the Panel, they lost.

Correct, there is none.

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

Further odd given that Melvin was an employee of OTUSA before being contracted by them to draft the class rule for Oracle!

It would be a proof that Melvin was an employee of OTUSA before and not when he wrote the rule.

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