Kiwing

How many challengers will there be?

How many challengers?  

127 members have voted

  1. 1. How many challengers will race the Prada Cup?

    • 3 - that is no new challengers
    • 4 that is one new challengers
    • 5 that is two new challengers
    • 6 that is three new challengers
    • more than three new challengers


Recommended Posts

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 6:10 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

They apparently told the 3 Late Entries that you can make the Start Line in Auckland with less than 50M $ which obviously isn't the case. They mislead them.

You are right although I think Grant Dalton actually said Euro40m - same/same!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

You are right although I think Grant Dalton actually said Euro40m - same/same!

 

So I was right here then! Folks on this Board didn't believe me. I wasn't sure of if that figure came from Dalton or Sirena.

Begs one Question Shanghai: How can Dalton pull that kind of stunt? He should have really known better that his figure wouldn't work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dg_sailingfan said:

So I was right here then! Folks on this Board didn't believe me. I wasn't sure of if that figure came from Dalton or Sirena.

I bet if you looked hard enough you could find the quote. I remember it well because I laughed it was so derisory. I think it read something like "a team can be competitive for Euro 40 million."

Having said that, it is up to individual teams and potential teams to crunch their own numbers just like we had to in the run up to AC32

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no idea if it would work under the AC75 rule restrictions, but the later pages in this thread give me a sneaking desire to see a team with no cash enter anyway, turn up with an old displacement mono (Stormvogel for the Dutch, Windward Passage for S&S) throw whatever OD components they need into the bilges to comply with the rules, and then go out and win the AC by finishing races when the foilers are falling over.  :P

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

I bet if you looked hard enough you could find the quote. I remember it well because I laughed it was so derisory. I think it read something like "a team can be competitive for Euro 40 million."

Having said that, it is up to individual teams and potential teams to crunch their own numbers just like we had to in the run up to AC32

How many of these three teams have/had €40m?

Malta appears to have had nothing, Dutch don't appear to have €1m yet?

S&S bought a design package - I wonder if they've paid in full?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Altus Challenge WITHDRAWAL Press Release:

The Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron has advised that today they received a notice from the Royal Malta Yacht Club officially withdrawing the Malta Altus Challenge from the 36th America’s Cup.

“This is a disappointing outcome.” said Grant Dalton, “The Malta Altus Challenge had a strong foundation with some highly experienced and reputable America’s Cup personnel linked to the team. So, for them to pull out is not just a shame for the event but also for those people that have worked so hard trying to get this challenge to the start line. We hope they will continue to build on their foundation over the next 18 months with a view to the future and challenging for the 37th America’s Cup.”

“We are wanting the Prada Cup to include as many teams as possible.” Said Laurent Esquier CEO of the Challenger of Record. “While we have done all we can to support the Malta Altus Challenge, they haven’t been able to bring together all the layers of complexity that are needed to continue with an America’s Cup challenge. We are still guaranteed to have an exciting and highly competitive Prada Cup to select the final challenger to race against Emirates Team New Zealand in the Match.”

The two remaining late challengers, Stars + Stripes USA and DutchSail will confirm their ongoing commitment to the 36th America’s Cup presented by Prada by July 1st.

https://www.americascup.com/en/news/382_MALTA-ALTUS-CHALLENGE-WITHDRAWS-FROM-AC36

Interesting little nugget here is that DutchSail and Stars & Stripes Team USA have been put on a Deadline now to confirm their Participation by July 1st.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gladwell says Malta's AC contrib is the interpretation of the nationality rule (passports).  Victory for mercenaries :)

He also says withdrawal of 1 team has little effect on base development. I guess they hope  development goes too far to scale backb byJuly 1? 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/218071/Malta-Altus-Challenge-exits-2021-Americas-Cup

NZ blames NYYC-instituted arb delays for Malta's problems. Yeah, sure.  

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/boating/113166852/americas-cup-malta-entry-withdraws-from-2021-americas-cup

I read somewhere but now can't find linky allegation that Malta operation did not pay people for "9 months of work" if true someone may find link.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Gladwell says Malta's AC contrib is the interpretation of the nationality rule (passports).  Victory for mercenaries :)

He also says withdrawal of 1 team has little effect on base development. I guess they hope  development goes too far to scale backb byJuly 1? 

https://www.sail-world.com/news/218071/Malta-Altus-Challenge-exits-2021-Americas-Cup

Richard Gladwell is blowing up smoke again in a Number of ways. Especially this Phrase he put out:

The first bases are due to be handed over to the Super Teams in August 2019.

That is not to be the case at all. Sir Ben Ainslie has already contradicted that in an Article published by the NZ Herald in Mid May:

After initially planning to be based in Auckland later this year, Ainslie says his team has now been forced to play the waiting game due to construction issues with their site.

"We would have liked to go to New Zealand earlier but it has been a struggle getting the leases on the bases. We still don't have a lease, as it stands.

"There's some problems with some piping that's going in which is between the base and the dock front. This is integral to being able to operate boats in and out of the water.

"We don't think that'll be ready until next January so that's making it problematic to being in New Zealand earlier.

"We probably would have gone out this coming [UK] winter to get some familiarisation time.

"That's a frustration, and a shame for Auckland not having the teams down their earlier but it's out of our hands."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

blames NYYC

hahahahaha

This AC is like the ACs of old!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Richard Gladwell is blowing up smoke again in a Number of ways. Especially this Phrase he put out:

The first bases are due to be handed over to the Super Teams in August 2019.

That is not to be the case at all. Sir Ben Ainslie has already contradicted that in an Article published by the NZ Herald in Mid May:

After initially planning to be based in Auckland later this year, Ainslie says his team has now been forced to play the waiting game due to construction issues with their site.

"We would have liked to go to New Zealand earlier but it has been a struggle getting the leases on the bases. We still don't have a lease, as it stands.

"There's some problems with some piping that's going in which is between the base and the dock front. This is integral to being able to operate boats in and out of the water.

"We don't think that'll be ready until next January so that's making it problematic to being in New Zealand earlier.

"We probably would have gone out this coming [UK] winter to get some familiarisation time.

"That's a frustration, and a shame for Auckland not having the teams down their earlier but it's out of our hands."

OR..... maybe they figured out how to get the Ben's desperately needed G&T pipe hooked up after all?

Who knows, a lot can happen between mid-May and August!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Richard Gladwell is blowing up smoke again in a Number of ways. Especially this Phrase he put out:

The first bases are due to be handed over to the Super Teams in August 2019.

That is not to be the case at all. Sir Ben Ainslie has already contradicted that in an Article published by the NZ Herald in Mid May:

After initially planning to be based in Auckland later this year, Ainslie says his team has now been forced to play the waiting game due to construction issues with their site.

"We would have liked to go to New Zealand earlier but it has been a struggle getting the leases on the bases. We still don't have a lease, as it stands.

"There's some problems with some piping that's going in which is between the base and the dock front. This is integral to being able to operate boats in and out of the water.

"We don't think that'll be ready until next January so that's making it problematic to being in New Zealand earlier.

"We probably would have gone out this coming [UK] winter to get some familiarisation time.

"That's a frustration, and a shame for Auckland not having the teams down their earlier but it's out of our hands."

Ainslie is a sailor based in the UK training out of Spain. He’s not a construction specialist. The people on the ground in Auckland have already denied  Ainslies claim and stated they’re ahead of schedule

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Ainslie is a sailor based in the UK training out of Spain. He’s not a construction specialist. The people on the ground in Auckland have already denied  Ainslies claim and stated they’re ahead of schedule

Really? I don't believe them. If all the Bases were handed over to the 3 Superteams like Gladwell claims why is NYYC/AM moving back to Pensacola for the 2019/2020 US Winter?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^  S-E-C-R-E-C-Y

Follow the dashes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

S-E-C-R-E-C-Y

Follow the dashes.

That's nonsense mate! ETNZ COO Kevin Shoebridge claimed in an Article/Interview from April that Ineos Team UK & NYYC/American Magic were interested going to Auckland during the NZ Summer 2019/2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Nonsense!

That's nothing to do with how each team deals with SECRECY !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/30/2019 at 8:41 AM, WetHog said:

TP52 type boat?  Thats what I was expecting/hoping for when GD said monohull.  Would have to think getting 5-8 Challengers with a TP52 type boat would of been very possible.  The 3 main Challengers now would of signed up for that and would think at least two of S&S, Dutch and Malta could scrape up enough funds for at least one boat.  Then look to current TP52 teams and maybe a couple of those teams sign up.  And then maybe an established team from AUS gets interested, like the Wild Oats crew.  Hell maybe even old EB and Alinghi decide to return.  And another wild card possibility is some RC44 teams, like Artemis, get interested.  5-8 Challengers feels like a foregone conclusion if a TP52 type boat was chosen.

The AC is never going to come close to competing for fans attention on a global stage like the Olympics, F1 or the World Cup.  Its a niche event sailors follow.  Its time to accept that and for the AC to truly return to its roots.  A match racing competition between nations contested in displacement monohulls the AC's true fans can relate to.  

In addition, I still feel strict nationality rules would go a long way in helping sustain the AC moving into the future.  It would be a lot easier to realize that goal with a displacement monohull.  

WetHog  

6 people liked this post.  Didn’t think I was alone in this opinion but it’s nice to have a bit of confirmation.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry

There are enough regattas now.

AND only one America's Cup.

We would not have seen flying winged boats if it had not been for ETNZ and AC34 ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, WetHog said:

6 people liked this post.  Didn’t think I was alone in this opinion but it’s nice to have a bit of confirmation.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I think you will find a lot more support your view, just that many of them have drifted off due to lack of interest. I certainly seldom come here. Partly because the new boats don’t overly interest me and partly because to many of the posters here are unable to consider anything but positive thoughts and prayers. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry

There are enough regattas now.

AND only one America's Cup.

We would not have seen flying winged boats if it had not been for ETNZ and AC34 ?

The one America’s Cup is just another regatta now. Winged flyers or not, just another expensive regatta pretending to be special. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gissie said:

The one America’s Cup is just another regatta now. Winged flyers or not, just another expensive regatta pretending to be special. 

Bitter much? What sports event isn't, or at least trying to be. Nice to see you back tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gissie said:

positive thoughts and prayers

OK, I do have a positive thought and would like to pray for you.

Can you tell me how to do that, please, a how to pray for dummies or so?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gissie said:

The one America’s Cup is just another regatta now. Winged flyers or not, just another expensive regatta pretending to be special. 

Sorry @Gissie I don't agree.

Prada Cup might be another Regatta (but even than I don't agree).

This twin skin soft sail will be the development that will (or not) be another leap forward for sailing.  Time will tell !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry

There are enough regattas now.

AND only one America's Cup.

We would not have seen flying winged boats if it had not been for ETNZ and AC34 ?

Why not? We saw winged cats eons before AC34. We saw flying boats before AC34. In fact the first design to be built as a fully-flying ocean racer with wing mast and double skin sails hit the water in about 1984. Due to the technology of the time it didn't actually end up flying, but the shorthanded guys, C Classers, Mothies and speed sailors were all into the right sort of concepts a long way before anyone in the AC dreamed of them. Given that other areas of the sports created all the concepts and had tried bringing many of them together before, to be thwarted by technological limits, it seems very likely that improvements in technology would have allowed them to develop fully flying winged multis even if the AC never got involved.

After all, the AC normally lags badly in basic concepts. AC sailors didn't invent fin keels, planing big boats, fractional rigs, bendy masts, squaretops, mylar, wing masts, wing sails, foiling, assys, bulb keels, foam core, sloop rigs, genoas, bermudan sloops. AC sailors normally lagged in development; the wonder is not that winged foiling cats were developed but that the AC pioneered them.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

This twin skin soft sail will be the development that will (or not) be another leap forward for sailing.  Time will tell !!

I don't think the AC75s will prove much in that regard as the rule essentially mandates it, so there's no reasonable comparison with other configurations. Dual luff sails have been around for a long time but haven't made it to mainstream sailing. They might make sense given the design parameters of an AC75, but not otherwise. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wot 'e said. It's a concept that is many decades old.  Even if there is a performance increase, it would depend on the parameters. Doubling the sailcloth and much of the hardware will surely cause a dramatic increase in the cost of the sail. Weight will also probably increase, so any extra aerodynamic efficiency would normally have to be traded off against heeling moment, and against the option of just increasing sail area or aspect ratio instead. And a more expensive sail is a recurring expense, unlike other ways of making a boat go quicker. So how many boats will ever bother?

The other interesting thing is that the two AC wing designers who I've read say that double skins are not inherently any better than single skin sails. It would be interesting to know more on that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Curious said:

Wot 'e said. It's a concept that is many decades old.  Even if there is a performance increase, it would depend on the parameters. Doubling the sailcloth and much of the hardware will surely cause a dramatic increase in the cost of the sail. Weight will also probably increase, so any extra aerodynamic efficiency would normally have to be traded off against heeling moment, and against the option of just increasing sail area or aspect ratio instead. And a more expensive sail is a recurring expense, unlike other ways of making a boat go quicker. So how many boats will ever bother?

The other interesting thing is that the two AC wing designers who I've read say that double skins are not inherently any better than single skin sails. It would be interesting to know more on that.

 

Foiling concept was around for decades too... And yet...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.....and yet the AC utterly ignored it until the Moths proved it could work around a course.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What the AC brings to these concepts is the money to do the development that then drives the cost down to a level where normal yachts can use them.

The teams are probably going to put about a combined 100+ million dollars into twin skin technology that they obviously believe has performance potential, it could easily result in systems that are usable far more widely.  Twin skins have been around for ages, we know they work at least to a certain degree, but making them really work and reliably is simply beyond the resources of most organisations to justify.

The AC does for yachts, what the military does for aviation and spaceflight, provide a ludicrous amount of money to test and refine systems that have real potential but are currently niche, marginally useful or simply too expensive to justify.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many  developments that went up from small craft to the AC in recent times have come down in cost and been used by normal yachts?  Maybe a few hundred cat foils?

There were developments in sailcloth, rigging, and gear that came out of ACs and into normal yachts for a few years when AC boats were closer to the normal yacht, but it's hard to find any evidence that overall the AC was much more of a driver of such things than other areas of the sport.

It's hard to see where twin skins have worked, apart from the luffs of some cat rigs.  Nor, as guys like the Oracle wing designers have said publicly, is there any reason why they should work better. There's an idea that because aircraft have thick wings and go fast it's proof that thick skins work better but their foils are working at different angles and have different structural and drag issues. I find that info from actual AC wing designers to be very interesting because it tallies with real life, where twin skins have (as you say) been around for eons and stubbornly refused to actually win races.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Boybland said:

The teams are probably going to put about a combined 100+ million dollars into twin skin technology that they obviously believe has performance potential…

They're doing it because the rules mandate it. ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, RobG said:

They're doing it because the rules mandate it. ;-)

That is the point ;-)

Let us hope they find something the earlier trails didn't.  I think Glen is a driving person and I really respect his foresight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also thought part of the rationale was not to have to crane wings on and off every day while getting some winglike performance characteristics?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I also thought part of the rationale was not to have to crane wings on and off every day while getting some winglike performance characteristics?

That was my understanding too. Full wing systems were never going to have much trickle down benefiting the rest of the sailing community, twin skins might. So there may well be some trickle down in the future.

I think one of the primary reasons we've not seen a lot of work done on these in the past is that most measurement systems either don't allow twin skin sails or penalise them so heavily that the any benefits are lost, so why pour money into developing the concept further?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, barfy said:

Bitter much? What sports event isn't, or at least trying to be. Nice to see you back tho.

Not bitter at all, that’s the guy in Fiji. The cup has just moved in a direction I happen to disagree with. Therefore it no longer holds my attention to the same degree. I will continue to drift in and out, but that’s about it. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry @Gissie I don't agree.

Prada Cup might be another Regatta (but even than I don't agree).

This twin skin soft sail will be the development that will (or not) be another leap forward for sailing.  Time will tell !!

My reason for it becoming just another regatta is it was always a challenge cup. The only time frame being when someone or group put their hand up and went - I’ll have a piece of that. Then it started up. The bullshit, the secrecy, the event. The first race when you found out where you stood in the bend the rules race. It is no longer that event. Planned events, warm up regattas around the world. One design parts. More and more crazy box rules that less and less can consider building. 

So to me it is now just another regatta. In many ways inferior to many of the others. Those that run each year have an advantage to keep people interested. Having the Cup every four years makes it difficult to keep the punters interested. So they just go to extremes. 

Many we will just have to agree to disagree. I do hope it goes well, just not really my thing any more. And thanks for keeping it polite. Cheers. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, RobG said:

They're doing it because the rules mandate it. ;-)

The rules mandate they use it, not that they invest stupid amounts of money, which they will almost certainly do. Although it sounds like your already at a million just for the D spar, this will be a long way away from the total amount spent on each rig.

I possibly could have worded it better and put that the designers believe it has potential, but you get the idea.  Either way we will almost certainly see twin skin sails advance to the point where they work as expected/projected and if we are just a little bit lucky we may see a solution viable for a much wider variety of yachts.

It does seem a common technology path has begun to emerge with recent AC events.

  1. Someone starts using a radical technology in very small boats where costs are lower.
  2. It's prohibitively expensive to test for larger boats so it doesn't proceed much further.
  3. The AC picks it up because it clearly works and stupid amounts of money are available.
  4. That money is then used to refine it to a point where it becomes viable for other larger yachts.
  5. It becomes common place on very small boats and they find some other radical way to get ahead again.

It's probably always been like this, except that up until the more recent events the rules were so restrictive and traditional that the technology refinement and transfer was generally more mundane and far less transformative.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, Woolfy said:

That was my understanding too. Full wing systems were never going to have much trickle down benefiting the rest of the sailing community, twin skins might. So there may well be some trickle down in the future.

I think one of the primary reasons we've not seen a lot of work done on these in the past is that most measurement systems either don't allow twin skin sails or penalise them so heavily that the any benefits are lost, so why pour money into developing the concept further?

But most races aren't under such rules, and the same issue applied to wing masts, assy spinnakers, bowsprits for spinnakers, bulb keels, fully battened mains and short overlap headsails.  There's plenty of races and classes with open rules where such concepts can be applied and, if they work, perfected. Even in the late '80s when the IOR was quite restrictive, boats like the Rocket 31s and 40, the Skiff 38, Modi Khola etc were running round and causing lots of interest with features that were banned under the rules. And classes like 18 Footers, shorthanded multis and pro windsurfers have had lots of money and rules that allow double-surface sails, but despite trials they have never adopted them.

Obviously some new tech requires development but it's also interesting to see how often the really great ideas don't seem to need a lot of time to be developed before they catch on. The assy kite is one classic example - the buzz went around very quickly and lots of people seem to have quickly become very aware of the pluses and minuses and how to develop them.  Compare that to double-surface sails; they have been tried over and over and over again with basically not a single demonstrable, proven success.  Wing masts in monos fall into the same category which may show how easily the aerodynamic advantages of a thick foil can be outweighed by problems such as weight or gust response.   The lesson seems to be that a lot of the time, if something is going to have a big advantage then the potential will be obvious very quickly - and these sails never seem to have shown such potential.

One thing I find really interesting is that there are lots of people who have created double skin sails and soft wings (which claim many of the same features) who have been loudly claiming their rig's superiority, but seem to have a massive problem with something as simple as just turning up to a bunch of local races against good competition to prove their claims on the water.  Personally if someone manages to spend years on end avoiding providing objective proof like race results while still finding the time to do more press releases, then I will take than an an implication that their speed is not as good as their spin. 

I'm not an aerodynamics expert but as noted earlier, some of the real experts have said that there's no inherent advantage in thick foil in sails and that seems to chime with a lot of real-world experience. So it's hard to see why this AC will create any significant breakthrough in the adoption of double-skin sails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Woolfy said:

That was my understanding too. Full wing systems were never going to have much trickle down benefiting the rest of the sailing community, twin skins might. So there may well be some trickle down in the future.
.....................

Tackling this point,  I envisage a big sea freighter with computer controlled wings supplementing it's Diesel with very controllable wind power with the computer minimising the drag when not in use or in bad weather.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Curious I seem to remember that all the people who knew about these things said bikes would not work, yet ETNZ had one accummulator not two and most things on the boat worked by oil and they seemed to me to have a significant advantage - not obvious because they rarely used it.  But after the pitchpole they had to for a few legs.

I know nothing bout wing sails, soft or hard, but Glen does and it seems to be him driving this twin skin development.

Time will tell I hope - I wonder if we ever find out all ETNZ's AC35 secrets?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^

Modi Khola now there's a name that brings back fond memories!

Whilst you're right there's plenty of races that don't have the rating restrictions that others have, the vast majority of their campaigns don't have funds to try and develop something like a twin skin system, the other developments you mention were all relatively inexpensive and easily changed out for the norm if it didn't work, even a keel can be remodeled or has good scrap value. A twin track mast and sails are as much use as a chocolate tea cup if they don't work, so any campaign in say the open classes is not going to experiment with and develop further something like that unless they're rolling in it and even the best funded open campaigns aren't.

Until someone really throws cash at the concept we'll never know for certain whether the gain in power is sufficient to justify the cost and up until this AC no-one has.

Personally I'm not convinced that the concept will produce the massive gains in performance that some seem to think it will, but I've no doubt it will produce some gain. Whether the resulting control systems will be practical and cost effective enough for use by the those that don't sail at the top level remains to be seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kiwing, the cyclors are an outstanding example where time DIDN'T tell, and where a successful innovation worked immediately. The second time the pedal winch concept was used (at least in top level racing) and the first time it was used in that context (on a cat with accumulators) and the result was an AC win!  It can be seen as a perfect example that the potential of major breakthroughs is often apparent right from the go.

So, contrast that with double skin sails, a concept that has been around for about 70 years and been tried repeatedly with no significant success, and perhaps no real success at all.  I'm no expert, and of course there is no doubt that twin skins may work for the AC75 because the aerodynamics of every rig must of course fit the lift/drag requirements of the overall vessel, its apparent wind etc. But it seems almost inevitable that a twin skin rig will be expensive and that it may not trickle down much, if at all.  

One way of looking at it is that design breakthroughs seem to often (or usually) be only 1-2% quicker around the course than existing craft and yet time and time again we see them almost instantly winning or showing convincing potential. The twin skins have never shown proof of that sort of performance advantage yet even if they only double mainsail cost (ignoring the other hardware) then they would seem to be likely to increase cost faster than they increase price. Obviously that is very, very common and yet perhaps it also shows that the potential for trickle down is pretty damn small.

 

PS - It's not a case where "all the people who knew about these things said bikes would not work".   Use the search function - quite a few SAers who also race bikes were saying before that the cyclors could work before the Kiwis started racing with them, especially those who had raced CX or had watched pros do bike changes.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

^^^

Modi Khola now there's a name that brings back fond memories!

Whilst you're right there's plenty of races that don't have the rating restrictions that others have, the vast majority of their campaigns don't have funds to try and develop something like a twin skin system, the other developments you mention were all relatively inexpensive and easily changed out for the norm if it didn't work, even a keel can be remodeled or has good scrap value. A twin track mast and sails are as much use as a chocolate tea cup if they don't work, so any campaign in say the open classes is not going to experiment with and develop further something like that unless they're rolling in it and even the best funded open campaigns aren't.

Until someone really throws cash at the concept we'll never know for certain whether the gain in power is sufficient to justify the cost and up until this AC no-one has.

Personally I'm not convinced that the concept will produce the massive gains in performance that some seem to think it will, but I've no doubt it will produce some gain. Whether the resulting control systems will be practical and cost effective enough for use by the those that don't sail at the top level remains to be seen.

Good post!  MK looked like a sweet boat.  

Yep, the concept may well create a marginal gain for AC boats, but never trickle down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S&S and the Dutch are looking really shaky. Looking more like being three.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 8:41 PM, WetHog said:

TP52 type boat?  Thats what I was expecting/hoping for when GD said monohull.  Would have to think getting 5-8 Challengers with a TP52 type boat would of been very possible.  The 3 main Challengers now would of signed up for that and would think at least two of S&S, Dutch and Malta could scrape up enough funds for at least one boat.  Then look to current TP52 teams and maybe a couple of those teams sign up.  And then maybe an established team from AUS gets interested, like the Wild Oats crew.  Hell maybe even old EB and Alinghi decide to return.  And another wild card possibility is some RC44 teams, like Artemis, get interested.  5-8 Challengers feels like a foregone conclusion if a TP52 type boat was chosen.

The AC is never going to come close to competing for fans attention on a global stage like the Olympics, F1 or the World Cup.  Its a niche event sailors follow.  Its time to accept that and for the AC to truly return to its roots.  A match racing competition between nations contested in displacement monohulls the AC's true fans can relate to.  

In addition, I still feel strict nationality rules would go a long way in helping sustain the AC moving into the future.  It would be a lot easier to realize that goal with a displacement monohull.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I missed this when you first put it up Wethog. I completely agree. Any market has a price, be it a Dollar price or a skill price or a technology price. Up the technology and you are bound to up the price. In the case of the current AC the market for the USD100m yacht which looks like an insect and can't even truly match race is looking like 4 customers. The defender and 3 challengers. I don't think the Dutch and S&S will make it - they now have 4 weeks to come up with (and risk) the non-refundable entry cost. Anyone on this forum willing to put that sort of money on the 'black'?

That leaves just GBR, USA & ITA. That just leaves one to back out or suffer irreparable damage in practice or early racing and we (as I have suggested before) wont need a semi final in the Prada Cup.

The cost quoted by Dalts some time ago at Euro40m and Mr Clean just because you didn't read doesn't men he didn't say it - plenty people read that from Richard Gladwell I think and apologies to Richard if it wasn't him - is clearly derisory. No chance the boat, campaign and sallies costs add up to that little.

The technology is way beyond many countries or potential syndicates.

The nationality rules take out another group from the market. There are a number of countries more than wealthy enough to enter a challenger but are young enough in our sport to not have a sufficient 'gene pool' of sailors.

Then there are the rules for challenging clubs, and this one sticks in my throat and I have a number of conspiracy theories on this.

For 160 year or so the Deed of Gift has been accepted (and ruled on a number of occasions all the way up to the New York Supreme Court) as the rules for determining whether a club may - or may not - enter a challenge for the America's Cup.

No club younger than 5 years can (sorry could) challenge.

No club with less than 200 members could challenge.

No club not funded pro rata across its membership could challenge. (What about clubs with full members, crew members, associate members, cadet members, social members all paying different membership fees - there's meat & drink for the lawyers right away.)

I am sure we can all think of clubs, perfectly capable and upstanding clubs that the protocol would disqualify.

Then finally the club has to be recognised by the MNA, a much tighter definition than the Deed itself.

All a far cry from "Any organised yacht club of a foreign country shall always be entitled, though any one or more of its members, to claim the right of sailing a match for this Cup"" so their Protocol additions in effect change the deed of gift's intent by the back door - "it's Life Jim, but not as we know it". - bad boys

Who or what were/are they frightened of?

A TP sized boat would be cool, we would probably end up with something like a TP on steroids. And wait! Perhaps we might see some match racing and some pre-start action and maybe even the odd dial up or two, not properly seen since AC32 and maybe even something approaching the 43 tacks on one leg like Liberty and A2 in 1983. Sorry got carried away but in these things (the AC36 Boats) we will never see action like we saw when Pitbull handed it out to the U-Boat Commander off Valencia

You want speed? close racing? foiling?, stadium racing? or a combination of those things well there was the ESS, there is GC32, M32, SailGP, Moths and more.

AC boats "sailing" a couple of feet in the air is another level of complexity and waving T-foils in the air means they don't even look like proper sailing yachts to the unwashed public.

I fell under AC's spell when Bondy got his teeth into the arse of the NYYC and there have been some amazing ding dongs (on and off the water) since but for all the hype, the current cycle is not, in my view at the moment, not looking too clever at all.

God I hope I'm wrong!

SS

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

The technology is way beyond many countries or potential syndicates.

A country of less than 5 million people has won it 3 times. Other so called maritime nations need to step the fuck up. The whining and excuses we're getting - oh it's too hard, the technology is too difficult, we don't have enough sailors, the boats aren't safe, we don't have enough money......blah, blah, blah......Do you fuckin hear yourself? Stop the whinging, stop the excuses, and step the fuck up, and win the damn thing. So tired of the bullshit.....

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Anybody think there will be more than 3?

I'd say four. S & S may yet pull this off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

A country of less than 5 million people has won it 3 times. Other so called maritime nations need to step the fuck up. The whining and excuses we're getting - oh it's too hard, the technology is too difficult, we don't have enough sailors, the boats aren't safe, we don't have enough money......blah, blah, blah......Do you fuckin hear yourself? Stop the whinging, stop the excuses, and step the fuck up, and win the damn thing. So tired of the bullshit.....

I have to agree with shanghaisailor. It is damn too difficult. Sorry.

Luna Rossa Principal Patrizio Bertelli for example tried 5 Times (2000, 2003, 2007, 2013, 2017) and couldn't do it.

If someone like Ben Ainslie can't win it then all hope is lost.

These Days the "TheOceanRace" formerly VOR is easier to win and also much cheaper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

I have to agree with shanghaisailor. It is damn too difficult. Sorry.

Luna Rossa Principal Patrizio Bertelli for example tried 5 Times (2000, 2003, 2007, 2013, 2017) and couldn't do it.

If someone like Ben Ainslie can't win it then all hope is lost.

These Days the "TheOceanRace" formerly VOR is easier to win and also much cheaper.

"I have to agree with shanghaisailor. It is damn too difficult. Sorry."

Pussy's!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And really, it's all about the need for speed. Moto sports, skiing, skating, biking, flying, the fastest wins. That's how we like to judge sports. That's a noble design goal. Unless we start handi capping boats, (towing three buckets ?), it will be very hard to go back to tp's, even if they are on steroids.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, barfy said:

And really, it's all about the need for speed. Moto sports, skiing, skating, biking, flying, the fastest wins. That's how we like to judge sports. That's a noble design goal. Unless we start handi capping boats, (towing three buckets ?), it will be very hard to go back to tp's, even if they are on steroids.

That's totally the wrong approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

A country of less than 5 million people has won it 3 times. Other so called maritime nations need to step the fuck up. The whining and excuses we're getting - oh it's too hard, the technology is too difficult, we don't have enough sailors, the boats aren't safe, we don't have enough money......blah, blah, blah......Do you fuckin hear yourself? Stop the whinging, stop the excuses, and step the fuck up, and win the damn thing. So tired of the bullshit.....

It is hard, it is difficult. Indeed.

Is it TOO hard, TOO difficult? No, clearly not. Someone will win. But the "so-called maritime nations" don't need to step up for a contest that is undoubtedly VERY difficult to win and VERY difficult to get sponsor ROI. Why not? Because (a) there are other options and (b) for the most part, the nations do not decide where to invest in sports. Look at Brasil: large community of sailors, great natural resources, no AC interest yet many times involved with VOR with state+private support. Should they step up or does it logically reason that an AC challenge out of Brasil should exist only with private money? I say the latter. I say Brasil and many other maritime nations have made the correct choice for them. 

We could take the "other options" thing even further. Should Canada take funds away from the national curling federation and give it to an AC effort? Should Ireland defund soccer and put the money to the AC? That would be insane for them. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I'd say four. S & S may yet pull this off.

WOW DS first positive,

Go S&S

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I have to agree with shanghaisailor. It is damn too difficult. Sorry.

Luna Rossa Principal Patrizio Bertelli for example tried 5 Times (2000, 2003, 2007, 2013, 2017) and couldn't do it.

If someone like Ben Ainslie can't win it then all hope is lost.

These Days the "TheOceanRace" formerly VOR is easier to win and also much cheaper.

Your cluelessness truly knows no bounds does it

Tell the VOR competitors that they have it easier than AC competitors and see how that pans out for you...

Whatever the fuck 'easier to win' even means...

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kiwing said:

WOW DS first positive,

Go S&S

Not my first positive.

I've consistently said since S&S entered that they would most likely to make it out of the 3 Late Challengers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Your cluelessness truly knows no bounds does it

Tell the VOR competitors that they have it easier than AC competitors and see how that pans out for you...

Whatever the fuck 'easier to win' even means...

giphy.gif

The VOR is easier to win than the AC, quite simple really. Especially for a new team. Plus it is cheaper than running a full blown AC challenge. Nothing to do with the sailing conditions, much harder on the VOR. But as an overall event running a potentially successful VOR is going to be an easier challenge than the AC. Especially in the weird fuckers you need to build and sail this time around. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Your cluelessness truly knows no bounds does it

Tell the VOR competitors that they have it easier than AC competitors and see how that pans out for you...

Whatever the fuck 'easier to win' even means...

giphy.gif

Go home you little clown. The right thing for all the Teams would be to boykott AC36 in Auckland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

Do you deny you are mostly negative about AC36?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

^

Do you deny you are mostly negative about AC36?

I will talk negative about AC36 as long as Forourselves, rh2600 and barfy are on this board because those 3 are paid staffers from ETNZ throwing in crap here most of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I will talk negative about AC36 as long as Forourselves, rh2600 and barfy are on this board because those 3 are paid staffers from ETNZ throwing in crap here most of the time.

That’s rich coming from you, look at all the shit you threw around with your last ID/Login during the AC and Volvo. :lol:

You ended up slinking away and coming back with sock instead. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@barfy You never told me you were a paid member of ETNZ.  Have to meet at the Swordy, where you can tell me some ETNZ secrets !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

A country of less than 5 million people has won it 3 times. Other so called maritime nations need to step the fuck up. The whining and excuses we're getting - oh it's too hard, the technology is too difficult, we don't have enough sailors, the boats aren't safe, we don't have enough money......blah, blah, blah......Do you fuckin hear yourself? Stop the whinging, stop the excuses, and step the fuck up, and win the damn thing. So tired of the bullshit.....

Is it bullshit, or is it just that the AC is not worth that much?

It's just a yacht race. It didn't even seem to mean much to NZ until the '80s.  NZ became a major sailing force with its offshore and dinghy victories before it even entered the AC, so it didn't even need the AC to prove how successful it was. In fact from a lot of angles, NZ sailing seems to have dropped away since it started putting so much attention on the AC. Before the first NZ AC challenge, you guys were on top in mainstream ocean racing (Admiral's Cup), 2nd and 3rd on the medal tally at the previous two Olympics, and were working up to utter domination of the Volvo/Whitbread. Some of our Olympians seemed to have an inferiority complex against you guys; I was racing against one of your top sailors and we were in awe of his dedication and talent. You had about half the world's top designers, at least, in the form of Farr, Davidson and Holland.

These days, Kiwi sailors are still brilliant, but perhaps the concentration on the AC has dimmed the light in other areas of the sport. To give stick to the Dutch and say they "need to step the fuck up" ignores the fact that these days, they are beating you in the Olympics and provided the money last time a Kiwi skipper won the Volvo. They have stepped up, but to a different plate, and surely that is their right?

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, barfy said:

And really, it's all about the need for speed. Moto sports, skiing, skating, biking, flying, the fastest wins. That's how we like to judge sports. That's a noble design goal. Unless we start handi capping boats, (towing three buckets ?), it will be very hard to go back to tp's, even if they are on steroids.

"Biking"??? A Tour de France bike goes half the speed of the fastest bikes. The bike I used to ride to work most days was banned from most of the Tour and the Olympic events because it was too fast.

In the past the AC boats were often not significantly faster than other boats. For most of the period from WW2 to 2009, the AC boats were much slower than other boats. If you took the 1970 AC winner Intrepid and put it up against that era's fastest ocean racing mono (Windward Passage), the fastest offshore multi (Manureva/Pen Duick IV) or the fastest small boat (the C Class Quest III or a wingsailed C) and the AC champion would normally have lost.   If you put Australia II, S&S '87 or an IACC boat up against a contemporary maxi, small cat or offshore cat it would normally have been daylight between them.

The Vendee and the Volvo are among sailing's biggest drawcards and both of them are sailed in monos that go a lot slower than a multi of the same size. People watched the 18 Foot Skiff Grand Prix despite the fact that a C Class cat would often have eaten them alive.

The fact is that AC boats have normally been about the same speed as the fastest boats outside the AC, or much slower, and people still watched the Cup, just as they still watch NASCAR,  the Tour de France, the Volvo and the Vendee.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I will talk negative about AC36 as long as Forourselves, rh2600 and barfy are on this board because those 3 are paid staffers from ETNZ throwing in crap here most of the time.

And then when it starts you'll be all sunshine and rainbows saying "I knew these boats would be cool all along" while at the same time saying "I know I said all that other bullshit, but I'm allowed to change my mind so stop bullying me" lol you're a cunt.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Go home you little clown. The right thing for all the Teams would be to boykott AC36 in Auckland.

Given your influence, I'm sure if you boycotted AC36, the teams indeed would follow suit.

So by all means... please boycott AC36 and these forums, and go back to being laughed at on the VOR board instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gissie said:

The VOR is easier to win than the AC, quite simple really. Especially for a new team. Plus it is cheaper than running a full blown AC challenge. Nothing to do with the sailing conditions, much harder on the VOR. But as an overall event running a potentially successful VOR is going to be an easier challenge than the AC. Especially in the weird fuckers you need to build and sail this time around. 

If the argument is that it's harder for a challenger to beat a defender in AC than it is for any team to beat the previous winner in VOR then of course history proves this to be true... it's the simple reality of COR/D structure, and it's what makes the AC the AC.

If you think Fuji is a better ascent than Everest because it's 'easier', then good for you. But the people who enter the AC and VOR don't do it because they are easy - but because, as JFK perfectly said "they are hard; because that goal will serve to organise and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept..."

To rate either event by their 'easiness to win' dismisses the effort of either endeavour (both of which are fucking hard!), and frankly is the attitude that originates from weakness and arrives at mediocrity and failure - something like likes of A4E is all too familiar with.

I'm not sure anything can be put better than the late great Sir Peter Blake's letter to Prada following their defeat to Team New Zealand in the 2000 America's Cup:

 

"The America's Cup is an elusive trophy, and has rarely changed hands in the last 150 years. This is not a sport for the faint hearted. It is not a quest to take lightly or on a whim. It is a fight between sailors from yacht clubs all over the world that desperately want the same thing: get their hands on the Cup.

The prestige for the winner has more value than any other sporting achievement. It's winning the invincible and doing the impossible that attract sailors, dreamers and millionaires, but the victory is not easy, and most of the time it doesn't happen. The only way to win is to continuously participate, continuously return time and time again with the conviction that you can do it. Hesitating after the first attempt is not part of the rules of the game. You need extraordinary people with ferocious motivation, lots of experience and attention to details and unconditional dedication.

The game is uncertain; for all you can dedicate, for all that you can motivate, and for all that you are willing to spend the victory is never guaranteed. For some it becomes a kind of drug. It is a game that you can come to deeply hate, to then discover that you can't live without it at least not until you win.

Then there's the metamorphosis (at least that is what happened to me). I was part of a crew that succeeded in winning the America's Cup at least once and successfully defending it.

I was finally free of the tightness in my mouth and in my stomach. I am paid. I am cured. I go to sleep at night and dream other dreams. New passions are being born inside of me. Just so that it is clear, competing for the America's Cup is a game of passion, of dreams when in every waking moment (and while you are asleep) you have only one unique thought and that is winning but the victory is uncertain until you have it in your hands.

The delusion and the disappointment hurts even when the others are suffering, imagine trying it out on your own hide.

You keep asking yourself "how?" and "why?" for weeks until you find the determination to try again, to not repeat the same mistakes, to do it better than before, to be better that the rest of the world, to be the best and then the anxiety becomes dreams and passions all over again. The thought of winning never ever abandons you but it is better to leave it on the side and concentrate on a new objective: to be the best in every phase of the new challenge. Nothing is left alone, not even the smallest detail.

But this doesn't happen just because you want it to. You need a team of exceptional people who share the same dream and the same passion and are not scared even when odds are against them. It's the difficulty of the challenge that puts the adrenalin in your veins that may have been weakened by the previous defeat.

The America's Cup is what it is because it is so difficult to win. It is not a game for armchairs admirals. It is not a game for a person who is not prepared to come back. It is not a game for the faint hearted. It is a game for those who are not scared of pitting themselves against the best that the world has to offer. It's a game where winning is almost impossible, almost, but not impossible. And this is why it is worth fighting for. It is the difficulty that gives any challenge some sense. This is the essence of life itself.

To all the people in Team Prada who are telling their story in this book, I would like to say, I admire your sportsmanship, your tenacity and your enthusiasm for life. You have given all of us a really positive image of your country and your countrymen will be proud of you. This time you didn't win but certainly didn't lose. You only lose when you don't have the courage to return. Not winning is part of the learning process which leads you to success. Because it is also a question of luck. It won't be easy.

The best things never are."

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If its going to be hard, to achieve the goal, be it the prize or whatever, its not worth going into.

If its going to be really hard, almost put into the impossible bracket...then its worth going for"

- Peter Blake, Americas Cup 95 The Ultimate Prize.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

A country of less than 5 million people has won it 3 times. Other so called maritime nations need to step the fuck up. The whining and excuses we're getting - oh it's too hard, the technology is too difficult, we don't have enough sailors, the boats aren't safe, we don't have enough money......blah, blah, blah......Do you fuckin hear yourself? Stop the whinging, stop the excuses, and step the fuck up, and win the damn thing. So tired of the bullshit.....

Yes I hear myself. Do you hear yourself??? So are you going to put up the money in Australia? If I remember correctly you ducked out as CoR last time because "we don't have enough money" (Byron Bay is in Oz isn't it?)

There wouldn't be a 160+ year tradition without my home country GBR or actual nation Scotland (A country of less than 5 million people at the time).

Not whinging (no I am NOT a Pom) And why should anyone "step the fuck up" if the competition doesn't appeal? It is party offering entry doesn't make it attractive enough why should anyone buy into something they don't want to. A restrictive Protocol including effectively a re-written DoG and out there design certainly doesn't help.

Having said that it wouldn't be the first time attempts have been made to 'load the dice'. Competitors having to get to the race course on their own bottom, Keelgate in '83, CNEV CoR by Alinghi, are all elements in the past that have attempted to tip the balance in the defender's favour before racing even got started.

It always makes me smile when people with absolutely NO skin in the game spout off that SOMEONE ELSE should spend a ton of money when they don't want to.

I've been there - I've had to contact ACM and withdraw a challenge at the 11th hour because promises of financial input have not materialised. It's a big boys game and not easy to get people to spend millions they are not comfortable with spending whether private individuals or corporate bodies.

It is easy however to spout on a forum that "maritime nations need to step the fuck up".  Yeah I too am tired of bullshit!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 2Newts said:

VERY difficult to win and VERY difficult to get sponsor ROI.

Okay Newts, you're first cab off the rank, so here we go. If you win it the ROI is all there and then some. It is difficult, but if you do manage to pull it off, the reward is stratospheric. You're immediately elevated to the pinnacle of the sailing world - the sailing toast of the globe - except for the Swiss whose win  was weirdly contrived - them not traditionally being sailors. Being so difficult makes winning it all the sweeter.

4 hours ago, Curious said:

These days, Kiwi sailors are still brilliant, but perhaps the concentration on the AC has dimmed the light in other areas of the sport.

I don't disagree with this statement. A small nation like NZ has had to focus its effort. The spin offs from winning the AC have been huge though. The NZ marine industry probably wouldn't be the force it is, without the success in the Whitbread and AC. Some tangible benefits there.

1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

(Byron Bay is in Oz isn't it?)

It is, but I'm a Kiwi. I think it's a pity corporate Aus has not backed a challenge, as clearly there is sailing talent in Oz.

1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

It is party offering entry doesn't make it attractive enough why should anyone buy into something they don't want to.

I'll tell yah, with that kind of attitude you're never going to win the cup. You're missing the essence of what it is to be a winner, which is to out think the other bastards in whatever rule they come up with. If all you can think of is why you don't want to compete, then you're gone before its started. Fear has never been a winning formula.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

 

A small nation like NZ has had to focus its effort.

 

The main talent of TNZ to win the cup was Guillaume Verdier and he is not from NZ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The main talent of TNZ to win the cup was Guillaume Verdier and he is not from NZ.

Your point being? Are you suggesting there hasn't been any input from NZers in their cup wins? Do you think one bloke is all it takes to win the AC?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

 

It is, but I'm a Kiwi. I think it's a pity corporate Aus has not backed a challenge, as clearly there is sailing talent in Oz.

I'll tell yah, with that kind of attitude you're never going to win the cup. You're missing the essence of what it is to be a winner, which is to out think the other bastards in whatever rule they come up with. If all you can think of is why you don't want to compete, then you're gone before its started. Fear has never been a winning formula.

On the first part I agree with you Horn Rock. As a sport we are singularly bad - very bad - at selling the benefits of high profile sport. 

Having been involved with AC & VOR it always amazes me how we cannot sell a 100' high billboard along 9 unique B2B opportunities to more than a handful of corporates. Dongfeng certainly benefitted from their VOR exposure and we were fully funded. So it is not corporates blame but I wonder sometimes if any of these sponsorship hunters ever attended selling 101. 

On the second comment it is not an attitude, it is called realism. It is not a matter of having the "essence of what it is to be a winner", it is not fear either, a closer description would be 'bang for the buck'. Whether that "bang" on a personal level is a suitable fun/stress ratio or in corporate terms ROI. In AC terms USD100m is a lot to fork out for what might be just half a dozen 30 minute races played on Star Sports. 

What is the signed media coverage of AC36 by the way? REALISM - corporates expect a profit on their exposure.

Not being negative, just wondering how one might expect a corporate body with responsibilities to shareholders to switch hats to being a benefactor of a sporting team or event with little hope of a positive ROI.

Think logic, not emotion.

Reasoned arguments, not personal brick-bats is what opens corporate cheque books.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The main talent of TNZ to win the cup was Guillaume Verdier and he is not from NZ.

giphy.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SS, Horn Rock is a true, Kool Ade drinking, blinkered Kiwi, living in Aus and sucking the teat of his adopted country.  None of the likely sailing friendly corporates in Aus want a bar of AC.  Aus has been there and done that, doing what no other nation could do by winning the cup off the seppos in '83.  Aus sailing is more interested in the Sydney Hobart race with far more opportunities for exposure than AC as they see it.  I guess Aus should say to NZ why dont you put a maxi in the Hobart race. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, rh2600 said:

If the argument is that it's harder for a challenger to beat a defender in AC than it is for any team to beat the previous winner in VOR then of course history proves this to be true... it's the simple reality of COR/D structure, and it's what makes the AC the AC.

If you think Fuji is a better ascent than Everest because it's 'easier', then good for you. But the people who enter the AC and VOR don't do it because they are easy - but because, as JFK perfectly said "they are hard; because that goal will serve to organise and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept..."

To rate either event by their 'easiness to win' dismisses the effort of either endeavour (both of which are fucking hard!), and frankly is the attitude that originates from weakness and arrives at mediocrity and failure - something like likes of A4E is all too familiar with.

I'm not sure anything can be put better than the late great Sir Peter Blake's letter to Prada following their defeat to Team New Zealand in the 2000 America's Cup:

 

"The America's Cup is an elusive trophy, and has rarely changed hands in the last 150 years. This is not a sport for the faint hearted. It is not a quest to take lightly or on a whim. It is a fight between sailors from yacht clubs all over the world that desperately want the same thing: get their hands on the Cup.

The prestige for the winner has more value than any other sporting achievement. It's winning the invincible and doing the impossible that attract sailors, dreamers and millionaires, but the victory is not easy, and most of the time it doesn't happen. The only way to win is to continuously participate, continuously return time and time again with the conviction that you can do it. Hesitating after the first attempt is not part of the rules of the game. You need extraordinary people with ferocious motivation, lots of experience and attention to details and unconditional dedication.

The game is uncertain; for all you can dedicate, for all that you can motivate, and for all that you are willing to spend the victory is never guaranteed. For some it becomes a kind of drug. It is a game that you can come to deeply hate, to then discover that you can't live without it at least not until you win.

Then there's the metamorphosis (at least that is what happened to me). I was part of a crew that succeeded in winning the America's Cup at least once and successfully defending it.

I was finally free of the tightness in my mouth and in my stomach. I am paid. I am cured. I go to sleep at night and dream other dreams. New passions are being born inside of me. Just so that it is clear, competing for the America's Cup is a game of passion, of dreams when in every waking moment (and while you are asleep) you have only one unique thought and that is winning but the victory is uncertain until you have it in your hands.

The delusion and the disappointment hurts even when the others are suffering, imagine trying it out on your own hide.

You keep asking yourself "how?" and "why?" for weeks until you find the determination to try again, to not repeat the same mistakes, to do it better than before, to be better that the rest of the world, to be the best and then the anxiety becomes dreams and passions all over again. The thought of winning never ever abandons you but it is better to leave it on the side and concentrate on a new objective: to be the best in every phase of the new challenge. Nothing is left alone, not even the smallest detail.

But this doesn't happen just because you want it to. You need a team of exceptional people who share the same dream and the same passion and are not scared even when odds are against them. It's the difficulty of the challenge that puts the adrenalin in your veins that may have been weakened by the previous defeat.

The America's Cup is what it is because it is so difficult to win. It is not a game for armchairs admirals. It is not a game for a person who is not prepared to come back. It is not a game for the faint hearted. It is a game for those who are not scared of pitting themselves against the best that the world has to offer. It's a game where winning is almost impossible, almost, but not impossible. And this is why it is worth fighting for. It is the difficulty that gives any challenge some sense. This is the essence of life itself.

To all the people in Team Prada who are telling their story in this book, I would like to say, I admire your sportsmanship, your tenacity and your enthusiasm for life. You have given all of us a really positive image of your country and your countrymen will be proud of you. This time you didn't win but certainly didn't lose. You only lose when you don't have the courage to return. Not winning is part of the learning process which leads you to success. Because it is also a question of luck. It won't be easy.

The best things never are."

What a pile of self serving crap. Putting up a competitive team in the VOT is always going to be easier than the AC. Both are hard, one is just harder. No need to compare it to Everest and Fuji. That is just being a complete asshole. But then again it seems to suit you. 

As for quoting Blake, just seems to prove my point that it is really hard. Maybe this just passed you by in your head rush to feel important and erudite. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Your point being? Are you suggesting there hasn't been any input from NZers in their cup wins? Do you think one bloke is all it takes to win the AC?

I think his point is that it has never been purely a kiwi victory. We have been happy to use anyone that can help. Unfortunately many supporters seem to think it is a purely kiwi thing. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Okay Newts, you're first cab off the rank, so here we go. If you win it the ROI is all there and then some. It is difficult, but if you do manage to pull it off, the reward is stratospheric. 

This is the fairytale used to justify the whole event. The market is small and the ROI is small. As sailors we like to pretend that the AC is some huuuuuge event that the world would love to watch and be involved in, if only we could work out how to package and monetise it. TNZ needed it most at first as they were dependent on sponsors. Now most teams are in the same boat. So they all run with the scheme that it is really valuable if only the dumb ass public would understand what they are missing. 

Except it isn’t. No matter how much lipstick you put on it, it isn’t and never will be, a major league sport. In the meantime it is throwing the limited number of supporters under the bus trying to prove ROI is achievable. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Gissie said:

I think his point is that it has never been purely a kiwi victory.

I understand that. We had Peterson in 95, and significant others from outside NZ ever since.

13 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Except it isn’t. No matter how much lipstick you put on it, it isn’t and never will be, a major league sport.

I agree, yet it has an esoteric quality that's hard to define. It still attracts wealthy men willing to stump up ridiculous amount of readies to win the damn thing. The TNZ model is somewhat unique, as is its support base, and it has enjoyed considerable success. Stars and Stripes are even trying to emulate it. The AC defies logic on plenty of levels, but here we are gearing up for another round of it, complete with all its absurdities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Kiwi, living in Aus and sucking the teat of his adopted country.

Yeah nah. As a primary producer I contribute significantly to the tax base in Aus.

2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Aus sailing is more interested in the Sydney Hobart race with far more opportunities for exposure than AC as they see it. 

You wouldn't be happy if Aus had a well funded challenge featuring Aussies considerable sailing talent having a crack at the Auld mug?

2 hours ago, trt131 said:

I guess Aus should say to NZ why dont you put a maxi in the Hobart race. 

We have on more than one occasion, even winning it once or twice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gissie said:

What a pile of self serving crap. Putting up a competitive team in the VOT is always going to be easier than the AC. Both are hard, one is just harder. No need to compare it to Everest and Fuji. That is just being a complete asshole. But then again it seems to suit you. 

As for quoting Blake, just seems to prove my point that it is really hard. Maybe this just passed you by in your head rush to feel important and erudite. 

Gissie, you may have walked into the crossfire of a typically contaminated troll attempt by A4E/dg_sailingfanny. This wasn't a debate about putting up a team, it was about one being easier to win, as if making it easier to win makes it more a worthy competition. 

Nothing wrong with Fuji, maybe just a poor example on my part...

As for Blake? Yeah, he won the Whitbread too - after five attempts and 17 years of trying. The AC? Oh he won that on his second attempt, so surely by that measure the AC is easier to win? Except it's much more complex than that eh... like trying to say winning FIFA world cup is harder than winning EUFA or vice-versa... totally subjective and frankly pointless discussion, unless you have an axe to grind with one of them (see A4E)..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The last successful, as a whole, AC cycle was AC32.  Why was it successful?  IMO, location was a part of it, then the number/diversity of the teams participating, introduction of "Acts" had a role and finally (and the most important factor IMO) the boats which produced arguably the most competitive Cup final in a long time ('83?).  The Version 5 boats couldn't hold a candle speed wise to the drag racer type boats of the last 12 years but the V5 boats could match race and thats what the AC is above all else.  A match race.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites