Meat Wad

Brexit, WTF

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Might be BS...

You can't believe everything you read online ;)

Hoppy that is so true but for individual readers of little wider consequence if they want to get sucked in by "fake news". 

The exception to that however is where people in power and political influencers are the OP. The best example of that is Trump who denounces the main stream media on Twitter as "fake news", and replacing it with his own fake version.

The real issue is the upside of social media being a "listening tool" for mainstream media and being able to quickly respond accordingly. Also their access to user generated content, eye witness video, and expert technical commentary etc is now imediatley available to them. Anyone with a social media account and a smartphone is now a reporter.

The big problem you refer to is the responsibility of main stream media when navigating through that information to first apply verification and fact checking procedures to avoid the promotion of "fake news".

Some main stream outlets are better with those verification procedures than others. For instance the Times in the middle is very good, the Express and Guardian at the political ends are not so good. Outside mainstream most online media platforms have appalling levels of accuracy.

You have to be your own censor these days with the deluge of online news content.

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22 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

My own business went into virtual hiatus in the U.K. for nearly 18 months through a bizarre spin off association with the F&M causing my market to virtually close. It was only our exports to Aus NZ and in particular the States that meant my survival but I had to lay off my staff which halted an incredible development lead we had in a certain field of electronics and once we got going again, sadly the opposition had caught us up.

One of those stories that just show how circumstances outside of your control can effect your wealth, ..

Wealth creation and loss is rarely an accident. Capital issues and attention to/lapses in research and contingency planning are more often than not the foundation.

Wayne you are an electronics engineer so here is a free tip to make money out of a uncontrolled Brexit.

This is where some retail items will rise in price to stratospheric levels via interuptions in the UK's supply chain. There is also the UK, a Nation of Shoplifters - The rise of supermarket self-checkout scams, micro shoplifting gangs and the increasing adoption of "frictionless shopping" like "till free" (items scanned in App and paid at shelf) to consider.

So Wayne develop an Electronic Article Surveillance (EAS) transmitter compatible to existing technology in use that is very cheap, disposable, discreet, tamper proof, low temperature rated, moisture resistant and deactivated automatically by scanning at POS self-checkouts and store exits for "till free" shopping.

Ogh and my research. "Shrinkage"by shoplifting is over 50%. With added Brexit paperwork other sectors such as vendor and administration fraud will arguably increase putting pressure on margins already under Brexit pressure. The largest by "value" of products shoplifted in supermarkets today is high end refrigerated meat products. Also "frictionless shopping" hitting speed bumps such as Sainsbury's reinstalls tills in till-free store.

Wayne get that right and you could secure a UK Govt contract for frictionless movement of goods and people across the Irish border.

 

1564031365-Screen-Shot-2019-07-25-at-3.08.53-pm-e1564031606554.png

images - 2019-09-17T143802.021.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

You need a hobby. Bingo?

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4 hours ago, KC375 said:

The wikipedea ranking is by tonnage - I could imagine a cruise ship comes in relatively low on tonnage but high on cost per tonne

Europe is not competitive in shipbuilding anymore against Korean and Chinese yards. The only ships being build in germany are Military, Superyachts over 60m, Cruise Ships and some other special ships. . Superyachts of that size and Cruise Ships are very special ships where a lot of specialist suppliers are needed that can design, deliver and install their products just in time and with the proper quality. And that's the only advantage of the german shipbuilders. And a lot of european workforce, like hulls or sections from Poland, fairing crews from Greece, welders from Bulgaria and Romania. Without them there would be no shipbuilding anymore, as germany just does not have enough workers to get the work done. Meyer Werft as an example employs only 2500 people, but there are another 12000 working for suppliers. 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

So Wayne develop an Electronic Article Surveillance (EAS) transmitter compatible to existing technology in use that is very cheap, disposable, discreet, tamper proof, low temperature rated, moisture resistant and deactivated automatically by scanning at POS self-checkouts and store exits for "till free" shopping.

Jack we were using them in the late nineties as part of my business and they have been tested by the trillions throughout the world since, think how every runner in your local marathon is timed, they don’t exactly stop on the finish line and a tag scanned. Look up RFID tags, oh just had a thought, in the agri business you must be using them already. Cost is pennies per unit. Every unit has a unique code and can be read from a distance, that distance depends on type.

You will immediately say but they are in a metal shipping container, yep it’s not ideal, but open the door and voila you have every code in a flash. If the customs were suspicious then random checks on RFID matching documented goods with the inference that goods without a tag are smuggled and sir, a very large fine will apply.

if the EU / UK really actually wanted a free border at NI / Ireland then RFID detection would have been discussed already for sure. But this is all academic as in a grown up world without the political willy waving, we would have finalised the FreeTrade agreement that should have already been implemented and RFID tags wouldn’t be even be part of this discussion. 

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38 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Joint Supreme Court ruling today on English and Scottish Courts deadlocked decisions on Boris giving the Queen a porky pie.

 

 

Not the ruling , the start of the hearings, this could go on for weeks .. like about 4 , I'm sure the BJ's lawyers will be at maximum verbosity

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Code for "I didn't want to stand beside Xavier as he set about making me look like a complete dick." 

 

 

Or as one of the reporters pointed out..

 The press briefing was supposed to be indoors, but Xavier set it up outside with a bunch of Pro remainers stood ten feet behind the cameras baying for blood..

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That bbc intervieuw.

Longest interview from BJ since he became PM.

In short, he will try to push through no deal.

Most interesting line to me;
And of course what the... parliamentarians threatening to extend and all that kind of thing. They hear that they listened to that over here, but I didn't think it substantially changes their calculations.

So you do not need the NO Deal on the table then too. As the EU knows it is still on the table, even after an extension. As UK politics are in total meltdown, from left to right it is al hokum. UK is in Schrödinger cat territory. All can happen, but nothing that satisfies half of the country.

And you have to wonder, would Churchill avoided a presser because of some noise ?

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44 minutes ago, The Q said:

Not the ruling , the start of the hearings, this could go on for weeks .. like about 4 , I'm sure the BJ's lawyers will be at maximum verbosity

Hearing is scheduled for 3 days, so ruling this week.

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1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

Hearing is scheduled for 3 days, so ruling this week.

we hope...

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

And you have to wonder, would Churchill avoided a presser because of some noise ?

In Ireland the Sun it is pretty straight reporting ...In England they make shit up about a hostile EU....well done Rupert.

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Obama put deal on the backlist. Leavers angry
Trump sneered May, Leavers happy,
Grand Duchy offered a public podium BJ refused due to noise.  Leavers angry.

It really is a religion. Has all the hypocrisy. From the devoted. Both sides.

BJ shows up with no plan on paper, again, very rude. And Lux Duchy get realistic.
He never used the language like BJ does, Hulky, Kipper, Hiltler = EU, Euro myths creator.
If the champions of "Global Britain" can not handle a press conference in Luxembourg, with only 100 protestors, it looks dire.
No oomph, no energy, just spaffle.

BJ just continues where May stopped, Brexit is Brexit. And not much has changed in Parliament. Except they stopped No Deal for now.

And time is more limited, that is the only good thing from BJ, it focusses minds. Maybe a decision is made before new year.

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4 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Jack we were using them in the late nineties as part of my business and they have been tested by the trillions throughout the world since, think how every runner in your local marathon is timed, they don’t exactly stop on the finish line and a tag scanned. Look up RFID tags, oh just had a thought, in the agri business you must be using them already. Cost is pennies per unit. Every unit has a unique code and can be read from a distance, that distance depends on type.

You will immediately say but they are in a metal shipping container, yep it’s not ideal, but open the door and voila you have every code in a flash. If the customs were suspicious then random checks on RFID matching documented goods with the inference that goods without a tag are smuggled and sir, a very large fine will apply.

if the EU / UK really actually wanted a free border at NI / Ireland then RFID detection would have been discussed already for sure. But this is all academic as in a grown up world without the political willy waving, we would have finalised the FreeTrade agreement that should have already been implemented and RFID tags wouldn’t be even be part of this discussion. 

The problem that I have with this is that it assumes that everyone is willing to play nice and actually place electronic tags on their products.  Once there is a profit motive due to beer, cigarettes, or diesel being significantly cheaper on the other side of the border, there are sure to be bad actors who will start smuggling for profit.  Border checks by human border guards will inevitably become necessary.

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4 hours ago, The Q said:

Or as one of the reporters pointed out..

 The press briefing was supposed to be indoors, but Xavier set it up outside with a bunch of Pro remainers stood ten feet behind the cameras baying for blood..

Can you provide a citation or link to where a reporter says "was supposed to be indoors".

The reports I read said it had always been planned for where it was held (you don't just wire up the podiums on a last minute whim). BJ's team asked for it to be moved indoors to avoid the unpleasant crowd but "apparently" there was not a room readily available big enough to hold the press pool. BJ's folks suggested winnowing down the press pool and Bettel's team were not willing to arbitrarily reject members of the press.

If in fact the press briefing was moved to outdoors - then that does put a different spin on it. It would suggest that Bettel's team chose the location for optimum public effect (I'm shocked, truly shocked. A public communication chosen so the surroundings convey a message, absolutely never seen that before. It's not like people regularly set up flags and stuff like that for press briefings.)

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

In Ireland the Sun it is pretty straight reporting ...In England they make shit up about a hostile EU....well done Rupert....

I find their is a strong correlation in the English world between Murdoch ownership of the press and political disfunction.

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This interview with Liz Truss was on New Zealand Television.  She says that she voted for remain but she now favours Brexit.  Her expectation is that after Brexit the UK will make free trade agreements with New Zealand and the EU and others.  She seemed quite rational. 

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/clips/q-a-with-liz-truss

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Why would the EU agree to any free trade deals, that would give UK an advantage? 

I believe this will never happen as EU will try to stop others to follow the brits. But looks like typical british cherry picking: Asking for all advantages of a free trade region without having to pay to EU and accepting EU rules....

I believe slowly the EU position is changing from :we want UK to remain to we better get rid of these cherry picking troublemakers, when you look at what Junckers has said regarding part time europeans. 

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

This interview with Liz Truss was on New Zealand Television.  She says that she voted for remain but she now favours Brexit.  Her expectation is that after Brexit the UK will make free trade agreements with New Zealand and the EU and others.  She seemed quite rational. 

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/clips/q-a-with-liz-truss

Really?? Try this.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_wkO4hk07o

https://www.indy100.com/article/liz-truss-brexit-eu-referendum-lbc-radio-interview-eddie-mair-watch-video-9038631

 

She will say anything in order to keep her job, and as she's on a tax payer funded holiday. sorry trade mission, she's unlikely to say anything else.

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58 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Why would the EU agree to any free trade deals, that would give UK an advantage? 

I believe this will never happen as EU will try to stop others to follow the brits. But looks like typical british cherry picking: Asking for all advantages of a free trade region without having to pay to EU and accepting EU rules....

I believe slowly the EU position is changing from :we want UK to remain to we better get rid of these cherry picking troublemakers, when you look at what Junckers has said regarding part time europeans. 

The EU would I think agree a free trade deal with the UK for the same reason they would with any other country. A deal will get done if and only if it is mutually beneficial...and then only after a lot of hard work, posturing, negotiating and compromising, and possibly hardest - ratifying by relevant authorities.

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13 minutes ago, mad said:

Really?? Try this.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_wkO4hk07o

https://www.indy100.com/article/liz-truss-brexit-eu-referendum-lbc-radio-interview-eddie-mair-watch-video-9038631

 

She will say anything in order to keep her job, and as she's on a tax payer funded holiday. sorry trade mission, she's unlikely to say anything else.

I agree that Liz Truss fares badly in those two interviews recorded some months ago, I guess she has polished her performance a bit since then.

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12 minutes ago, KC375 said:

The EU would I think agree a free trade deal with the UK for the same reason they would with any other country. A deal will get done if and only if it is mutually beneficial...and then only after a lot of hard work, posturing, negotiating and compromising, and possibly hardest - ratifying by relevant authorities.

All to try and re-achieve what we already have in place........:rolleyes:

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European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker delivers a speech during a debate on The State of the European Union at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France, September 12, 2018.

We respect the British decision to leave our union."

"But we also ask the British government to understand that someone who leaves the union cannot be in the same privileged position as a member state."

"If you leave the Union, you are of course no longer part of our single market, and certainly not only in the parts of it you choose."

"The European Commission, this European Parliament and all member states will always show loyalty and solidarity with Ireland when it comes to the Irish border.

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1 minute ago, Terry Hollis said:

I agree that Liz Truss fares badly in those two interviews recorded some months ago, I guess she has polished her performance a bit since then.

You can't polish a turd, no matter how hard you try.

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1 minute ago, jgh66 said:

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker delivers a speech during a debate on The State of the European Union at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France, September 12, 2018.

We respect the British decision to leave our union."

"But we also ask the British government to understand that someone who leaves the union cannot be in the same privileged position as a member state."

"If you leave the Union, you are of course no longer part of our single market, and certainly not only in the parts of it you choose."

"The European Commission, this European Parliament and all member states will always show loyalty and solidarity with Ireland when it comes to the Irish border.

and that sums it up in a nutshell.

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Countries must have a reason to join the EU, so members must have an advantage about nonmembers. Simple. Same as in your sailing club. 

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You can be outside the SM and still do a trade deal.
Of course there will be trade deals in a few years or up to a decade. Maybe some lamb for fishing rights, some machine making for cars, tit for tat. And no financial services. Canada minus. And following EU standards.

EU has the same problem, GFA. They can not say bye to the UK. UK has to decide to break that treaty.
 

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There may be trade deals, but same as in your yacht club nonmembers will never get the same advantages and rights as members. 

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3 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

There may be trade deals, but same as in your yacht club nonmembers will never get the same advantages and rights as members. 

Depends on how much you want that champion helmsman on your club boat ?

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Makes no sense if then all other members leave... And without proper support champions may not long stay champions

 

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2 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Depends on how much you want that champion helmsman on your club boat ?

English Exceptionalism?

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You mix up trade deals with this;
free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour .

There will not be free movement of goods, there will be restricted trade of goods. Only if the EU profits from them, or get something else in return.
The UK will loose out in all four.

Free trade deal is different from Free movement rights.

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2 hours ago, LeoV said:

He never used the language like BJ does, Hulky, Kipper, Hiltler = EU, Euro myths creator.
If the champions of "Global Britain" can not handle a press conference in Luxembourg, with only 100 protestors, it looks dire.

I watch politics live on BBC2 at lunch time.  As usual different parties around the table, different views and the usual waffle of everybody fighting their own corner.

Oh dear .... today around the table that Britain is ..... offended. (reminds me of that stand up sketch somewhere)  We wouldn't treat a foreign head of state like that!   The EU Huns are truly rude !!

This was right up Marc Francois' alley as you can imagine.

Missed opportunity from the host Jo Coburn to remain neutral and counter that this situation is wholly of their own making ?

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22 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Makes no sense if then all other members leave... And without proper support champions may not long stay champions

 

I’m not sure the yacht club analogy is a robust model for agreements between nations...but for the sake of debate let’s go with it.

Of the sailing clubs I’ve participated in/had some affiliation with (at least 9) everyone has had some form of tiered membership and “exceptions” ranging from free with limited benefits (high performance team member or “Corinthian” athlete) to free with full benefits (honorary life members) to crewing members to full freight family members with berth etc. not to mention clubs that offer option of clubs within the club (e.g. rackets, gym...). So if you take yacht clubs as an example then you would expect a massive range of benefits for a massive range of commitments.

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Of course there are yachtclubs that offer a free membership or even pay something to top sailers. But do they do that as well to former regular members, that left cause they did not like to pay anymore, don't want to have black people on their boats and that are otherwise the same weekend sailers as any others? 

- sorry nothing against black people - you can replace that with germans, bulgarians, romanians, italian, jewish, asian, native americans, europeans or whatever you like or better don't like. 

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4 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

The problem that I have with this is that it assumes that everyone is willing to play nice and actually place electronic tags on their products.  Once there is a profit motive due to beer, cigarettes, or diesel being significantly cheaper on the other side of the border, there are sure to be bad actors who will start smuggling for profit.  Border checks by human border guards will inevitably become necessary.

So what you are saying is that the Irish border is a special case and all the containers coming into say Rotterdam that are electronically declared, are all genuinely fully legal and above board ?

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58 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I’m not sure the yacht club analogy is a robust model for agreements between nations...

it's not so much the yacht club analogy but the "champion helmsman" that strikes a chord, not sure if he intended it like that (consciously or merely unconsciously... ask Freud), but reason for leaving was and is the feeling that the UK should have been the champion helmsman of Europe, and they never were, hence -like in one of the vid's that were posted recently, the speaker in Ozland- the quote that " I don't want to be ruled by the German or the French ... with the underlying thought that he wants the UK  to rule them.

Or -sorry for the repetition- like this brexiteer told me already a couple years ago : "the brits are the best shopkeepers around, now why wouldn't you pesky continentals let us mind the shop and just do as we say and we'll all get along just fine" you can replace shopkeeper by helmsman in previous phrase

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

There will not be free movement of goods, there will be restricted trade of goods. Only if the EU profits from them, or get something else in return.

You fail to take into account that the EU has a significant trade imbalance with the UK and also relies on the City of London for extensive financial services which are at present unavailable in the EU financial markets.

 

2 minutes ago, Albatros said:

with the underlying thought that he wants the UK  to rule them.

Me thinks that you may read far to much into what was a pretty banal statement, bit like the Guardian newspaper articles of late, I would check with your psychologist on how sometimes people have normal conversations without any really hidden intent.

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AE_04092009_0002.jpg?itok=Tksygg8Y

1 Customs point centralized, only for containers;
2 One of the scanners.
And all container comes with a load of paperwork.
Next to this there are roaming teams with dogs who follow their own instincts.
All in all hundreds are working for customs there, many armed.
7,5 mil containers,  40.000 scanned as they are deemed a risk by the computer, 6500 opened for thorough inspection.
You see high tech brings opening 40.000 containers back to 6500, but it does not cancel inspections.

Build one of them at any border point. And for cars, and for pedestrians. And Ireland/NI border is the same as Rotterdam.

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42 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

relies on the City of London for extensive financial services which are at present unavailable in the EU financial markets.

Don't know how true this is, but I read somewhere that most banks would move to EU, propably to Frankfurt... 

CNN had an article on the car industry, especially japanese makers that used UK as a hub into EU... 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/07/31/business/uk-car-industry-brexit/index.html

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7 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Don't know how true this is, but I read somewhere that most banks would move to EU, propably to Frankfurt... 

Interesting article for you, make up your own mind when you consider that the original build up was to March 31st

https://www.ft.com/content/8eeafb6a-5161-11e9-b401-8d9ef1626294

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26 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

You fail to take into account that the EU has a significant trade imbalance with the UK and also relies on the City of London for extensive financial services which are at present unavailable in the EU financial markets.

Goods; tradewar with the UK and diversion within Europe, there is not much (in figures almost nothing) the EU really need from the UK. Unless the pounds drops really low, then the EU will shop in the UK again for UK stuff. Oh and rules of origin rules are free under WTO, so if it really gets a dogfight, only 100% UK products may enter the EU. Unrealistic, but hey it is a stick. So say 55% (is used in the world, bye car industry for instance, even UK build brands).
Goods still will be exported to the UK if they need them, even if they are more expensive. Will be less, but it will not stop. So trade imbalance will only get worse. Making the UK poorer and poorer till they find a sugar daddy. Repeat of the pre ECC days.

Financial: services EU related back to the EU. Easy peasy.

IF UK takes back control, so does the EU. Simples.
Even Minford agrees.

The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£64 billion with the EU in 2018. A surplus of £29 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£93 billion on trade in goods.

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32 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Build one of them at any border point. And for cars, and for pedestrians. And Ireland/NI border is the same as Rotterdam.

Ummm I think the total traffic volume at a NI border point may be a tad smaller than a Rotterdam hub, never the less what you are saying is an electronic solution backed up with random checks is good enough for the Netherlands, so why not for Ireland ?

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LeoV this discussion has taken place a 1000 times already, I'm quite happy to sit this one out as what ever I say or do, is going to make absolutely no difference at all to the outcome as equally the same for yourself.

Back to hot rodding an Ebike then tonight, far more fun than to read the whining on these pages.

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11 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

never the less what you are saying is an electronic solution backed up with random checks is good enough for the Netherlands, so why not for Ireland ?

Because the infrastructure and technology is not there in 5 weeks.  Rotterdam already had systems in place which have been continually improved and geared up from June 2016 onward.  The UK sat on their hands.

Given how decisions are made here it would take the UK another 5 years if not longer to get anywhere near.

Note.: I think you whine just as much as everybody else here :lol:

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5 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

This interview with Liz Truss was on New Zealand Television.......  She seemed quite rational. 

Ogh yes she is an absolute cracker.

 

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10 minutes ago, Laser1 said:

Because the infrastructure and technology is not there in 5 weeks.  Rotterdam already had systems in place which have been continually improved and geared up from June 2016 onward.  The UK sat on their hands.

Rotterdam container port is a closed of area, no civilians allowed, even temp workers are scrutinized. And it was build up in 50 years, not in one day.
Incomparable with an open land border. That is unicorn stuff. Like Cape Canaveral being the same as a bus stop in rural NI.

And no, Wayne missed a step, it is first an e-paperwork, risk assignment picks up containers, then they get scanned, after that the suspicious ones are manually checked.
Do that on all rural border crossings and youre fine. But it has to be fenced off to control the time between scanner and check, and with armed guards.

Wayne is as stupid as they comes.
The only solution for the UK after NO Deal with a government filled with muppets like now is returning to the 70's, which many older people will like.
No luxury imports from the EU, almost no exports to the EU as there will be nothing to export. Back to home grown food and home made products. Vacation at home again, most pensioners will come back.

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17 minutes ago, Laser1 said:

Because the infrastructure and technology is not there in 5 weeks. 

And then once there will be blown up 5 minutes later.

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Do or Ditch, Ditch it will be;
https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-17/hl-revealed-the-brexit-deal-johnson-wants-and-why-its-success-all-hinges-on-dublin-writes-peston/

Incredible shallow plan...;

But the biggest and most important question is whether Brussels and the EU27 will and can ever accept the principle that the citizens of Northern Ireland could unilaterally choose to end the arrangement.

This is an absolute must for Johnson I am told.

Equally, Brussels has always insisted that any arrangement to keep open the border should not be capable of being terminated by one side only.

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11 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Incredible shallow plan...

It is not even a plan. It is just the start to EU insisting on east west checks extending far beyond just agriculture. Boris will have to fold incl watering down his Stormont Lock expectations.

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Gives Stormont more power then the EU commission. With no obligation of open borders. back in unicorn land.
It is better to gamble on BJ resigning the 29th, or him asking for an extension with an election. Maybe he will loose. Or win and will go for No Deal.

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5 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

 

 

Me thinks that you may read far to much into what was a pretty banal statement,

you may have a point there, and I might not be the only one underestimating the level of banality of your statements, we all should keep this in mind

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On 9/4/2019 at 10:51 AM, Panoramix said:

Yes, you are right, the EU is useless, we should go back to the old times, what rural Ireland really needs is to be ruled by the English parliament (It is still British but with the lunatics in power, it is now a matter of time), they know how to engineer a good famine...

More seriously that's the population in the Republic of Ireland :

640px-IrelandRepublicPopulation1841.PNG

The EU doesn't seem to be working that bad for them....

I laugh at how you numpties attribute every positive aspect of the Irish economic transformation to the EEC/EU.

it really shows how ignorant of the subject you lot are.

 

Ireland transformed from being a third world country in a few decades starting in the 60’s but it wasn’t just because of EEC membership, the arrival of the Telly and the simultaneous demise of the Catholic Church coupled with a governmental emphasis on education and sciences had as much if not way more to do with the transformation as the EEC.

in fact, only in the late eighties when the government made an overt gesture to business by way or reigning in the powers of unions that Ireland transformed. The courting of foreign business began in earnest in the late 80’s and then the transformation began.

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

I laugh at how you numpties attribute every positive aspect of the Irish economic transformation to the EEC/EU.

it really shows how ignorant of the subject you lot are.

Ireland transformed from being a third world country in a few decades starting in the 60’s but it wasn’t just   because  of EEC  membership......

Randumb point to posts or any post here that says every positive aspect of Irish economic transformation is because of EEC/EU membership?

I don't know why you make shit like that up as your point is very valid. You are also spot on with your timing to as it started at least a decade before EEC membership. 

What you missed though is the most significant thing to occur on the island of Ireland is the "divergence" between Nth Ireland and Republic economies. This became a foundation stone to first the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's and secondly the Troubles, with the former evaporating with Bloody Sunday in early 1972 in favour of a 25+ year secterian civil war with London favouring/supporting one side.

The next most significant thing that occured on the island of Ireland and is of major social, political and economic consequence related to EEC/EU membership, is introduction of the Single Market in 1992 and creation of the EU.

Without that many things would not have occured north and south including the Good Friday Agreement.

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12 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Randumb point to posts or any post here that says every positive aspect of Irish economic transformation is because of EEC/EU membership?

.

Lol

 

jfc but you’re one stupid cunt.

read the post I quoted.

 

 

you should change your handle from Jack_Sparrow to Jack_Shit because that’s precisely what you know about this subject, besides your incessant cutting and pasting that is.

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Oughterard is a picturesque village outside Galway City and on the periphery of the Wild West Of Ireland (google “the wild Atlantic way”)

the Irish government is in the process of planting as many as 300 foreign nationals into the village (of approximately 1200) effectively changing over night the the only way of life which the locals have known for centuries.

this is one of many examples of this plantation of Ireland which we are in the middle of presently, we still haven’t resolved the problems from the last attempts at plantation and that happened hundreds of years ago.

the authorities have told the locals that it’s an EU directive and therefore out of their hands.

 

this is is why we must have Brexit, then hopefully Irexit, before it’s too late.

 

 

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I can't take seriously the notion that there is a groundswell of support for leaving the EU in Eire. Furthermore I have had any number of jobs in about a dozen different cities in four different countries in order to make a living. When there was no work in my native Nova Scotia I moved on down the road. You can call me anything but unemployed. Therefore I am not going to cry for the Irish villagers whose "way of life" might have to change. It will be an education for them to adjust to an ever changing world. 

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1 hour ago, Sea warrior said:

For anyone interested, this is worth the half hour 

That was good.

However the assertion that MP's have been "representatives" of the people since the late 1800's and no longer "delegates" of the people does not accord with the majority view of UK constitutional experts. This is unique to the UK as the "representative"  constitutional position attaches to many European Parliaments

The "representative" narrative is used by Brexiteer MP's to give standing to the people's 52/48 referendum result. 

The "delegate" narrative is used by Remainer MP's to give support to the people's standing "ceasing" at the ballot box and where they are then entrusted to act in the best interest of the nation as whole.

UK democracy isn't broken in the UK. What is broken is the wider understanding of what it actually means and when those in Westminister take advantage of that ignorance with their "representative" spin.

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48 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

read the post I quoted.

Randumb don't blow a valve. Think you should read it as it doesn't say or even infer "every" positive attached to EEC/EU membership.

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The protest is about the conditions inside the detention centres. The legacy of magdalen laundries and industrial schools.

For years now Ireland has sought to depress refugee numbers by hading over provision to profiteers who stick them in run-down hotels with minimal provision. This is just another example. A large centre in an inappropriate location, just because there's a building built on the cheep in the boom but that should never have been there.

Ireland is in the process of reconning with its institutional past. Now the what happened in the laundries and schools has been surfaced (and gay marriage and abortion legalised by massive margins in very high turn out referendums) and given some kind of chance to heal attention is on the refugee provision centres.

No deal Brexit is a threat to this progress, a tragedy that the is being responded to with the same mixture of lamentation, survival and opportunism as before.

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21 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I can't take seriously the notion that there is a groundswell of support for leaving the EU in Eire. Furthermore I have had any number of jobs in about a dozen different cities in four different countries in order to make a living. When there was no work in my native Nova Scotia I moved on down the road. You can call me anything but unemployed. Therefore I am not going to cry for the Irish villagers whose "way of life" might have to change. It will be an education for them to adjust to an ever changing world. 

There isn't one. Nor are their practical concerns about sticking a poorly managed getto in a dilapidated ex hotel in the middle of nowhere unjustified.

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29 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I can't take seriously the notion that there is a groundswell of support for leaving the EU in Eire.

Not a bit hard to take seriously, but complete bullshit being <15% in RoI and 44% in NI support leaving the EU.

images - 2019-09-18T151953.797.jpeg

eu.jpg

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44 minutes ago, rgeek said:

There isn't one. Nor are their practical concerns about sticking a poorly managed getto in a dilapidated ex hotel in the middle of nowhere unjustified.

Unfortunately not unique to the RoI either. Many countries have no or inadequate overarching economic policies for settling refugees/immigrants. 

For those in the system awaiting assessment and resettlement, some like Australia (with an immigration system Boris champions but doesn't understand) they are kept "offshore" pending either settlement or return.

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1 hour ago, Sea warrior said:

Oughterard is a picturesque village outside Galway City and on the periphery of the Wild West Of Ireland (google “the wild Atlantic way”)

the Irish government is in the process of planting as many as 300 foreign nationals into the village (of approximately 1200) effectively changing over night the the only way of life which the locals have known for centuries.

this is one of many examples of this plantation of Ireland which we are in the middle of presently, we still haven’t resolved the problems from the last attempts at plantation and that happened hundreds of years ago.

the authorities have told the locals that it’s an EU directive and therefore out of their hands.

this is is why we must have Brexit, then hopefully Irexit, before it’s too late.

The immigration "Direct Provision System" has nothing to do with the EU as it is an invention of the RoI.

It therefore can't translate into a position of supporting Brexit next door or an Irexit.

Furthermore there is not one major party in the RoI other than maybe the odd rural Independant who have a anti immigration policy.

It is simply a shit system that Dublin have had long enough to fix, but haven't.

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Feh, 

The prevalence of Eastern European serving staff in the Cairngorms restaurants around here is an indicator of what will happen when the border starts to close.

The cheap foreign labor will exit, and the economy will either have to pay sufficient wages to attract the locals (getting them off the dole ?) or contract in a declining spiral. 

Question: Are the British willing to do the necessary work anymore, or just sit and whinge? 

Speculations about competitiveness in any industry are negated by the questions of policy that attracts capital, technology and labor. 

EU policies are clearly not effective, as indicated in the stagnant economy and low innovation rates. 

Question: Will Britain be able to attract investment, educate a 21st century professional workforce and achieve productivity parity?

Who will pay for all of the disruption and social costs to disassemble the current mess?

The EU death spiral is attractive to the weak, Socialism is always a better option for those who don't contribute, swilling off the work of those who do. 

 

Stay tuned.. 

 

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One fatal flaw in no presence on the border if NI/Ireland but further from it;

Derry city limits, 2nd largest city in NI is 1 mile from the border. Unless you move the whole city, that forces a check right back on the border.

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Question: Are the British willing to do the necessary work anymore, or just sit and whinge? 

Speculations about competitiveness in any industry are negated by the questions of policy that attracts capital, technology and labor. 

EU policies are clearly not effective, as indicated in the stagnant economy and low innovation rates. 

Question: Will Britain be able to attract investment, educate a 21st century professional workforce and achieve productivity parity?

Traditionally productivity growth in US and EU have been closely tied together but US total measure superior. That appears to have diverged in the last decade indicating a EU problem. However that depends on measures which are used. For instance the EU28 (with no monetary control) versus EuroZone (with monetary control).

The bottom line though many EU countries still dominate the scorecard.

Here is an excellent OECD publication.

Compendium of Productivity Indicators

and Online Tools for assessing various labour factors including 

GDP per hour worked

Labour Productivity Forecast

Labour Productivity Utilisation and Growth Rates

If you dial up the UK things don't look too dandy, particularly if financial services are carved out.

If as much attention in the UK had been directed at dealing with piss poor productivity as has been invested in Brexit, then maybe the issue of Brexit would never have arisen.

Seems it easier just to blame the EU for your woes.

OECD Published 2019 Productivity GDP/Hr and Productivity Growth to 2018

image.png

large_2eVTDi4NnK1gvoQmWEz3TLsXA9unKZB69TO115ur8bg.png

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Quote

The bottom line though many EU countries still dominate the scorecard.

Nice Cherry you picked, have another... 

If you are going to let Luxembourg (pop 680k) and Ireland (6,600 k)  be your measure, then take Washington DC, and Santa Clara County, CA (pop 2000k ) and go compete, 

(and By the Way....  Norway aint in the EU, is it? ) 

the EU is simply not competitive, your own data shows a 67% rate of productivity as a ~300 million comparable population. 

And the disparity is worsening, with rates of invention and productivity growth on average falling behind. This is the impact of sclerotic governance and catering to fringe polities. 

Those regions/nations that are more productive are saddled with those that are not, and they still have the ancient enmities. 

A colleague from Munich summed it up, by stating that our $0.11/kwhr rates for power were way too low. He doesn't get that the extra price he pays for power is part of the problem. 

 

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11 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Nice Cherry you picked, have another..

Hardly a cherry picking exercise when there is a online tool to muck around with at your leisure and with regard to EU stated; 

26 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

. That appears to have diverged in the last decade indicating a EU problem.

 

11 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

(and By the Way....  Norway aint in the EU, is it? ) 

Norway in EEA or EU Single Market.

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Your "cherry" was to  state that (a few) European countries are leading, while ignoring that the EU as a whole is sadly trailing. 

Totally understandable that you would wish to convey a misleading message, the EU is a failure in most ways, with the possible exception that since it's inception there's been a hiatus of warfare between it's members, or was that due to NATO which tends to map much of the same territory, and the presence of US military on the continent to this day? 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Your "cherry" was to  state that (a few) European countries are leading, while ignoring that the EU as a whole is sadly trailing. 

Totally understandable that you would wish to  convey a misleading message,  .....

Yes that was very misleading of me to state the "EU has a problem" (with a bar chart showing position down the bottom) and state a "few" (the World Top 7 and majority of the Top 18 ) EU/EEC are leading. 

I will book my self in for a flaying ASAP.

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Brexit: Talks 'should not be a pretence' warns Barnier

The UK and EU "should not pretend to be negotiating" a Brexit deal if there are no new proposals on the table, the EU's chief negotiator has said.

Michel Barnier said the UK telling the EU what it does not like about the current agreement was "not enough".

He cast doubt on two ideas put forward by the UK - a single all-Ireland zone for agriculture and livestock and a Northern Irish veto over EU rules.

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Your "cherry" was to  state that (a few) European countries are leading, while ignoring that the EU as a whole is sadly trailing. 

Totally understandable that you would wish to convey a misleading message, the EU is a failure in most ways, with the possible exception that since it's inception there's been a hiatus of warfare between it's members, or was that due to NATO which tends to map much of the same territory, and the presence of US military on the continent to this day? 

 

 

 

can you explain the EU failing? In what ways to be exact?

Nato was against the USSR if I remember correct.

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

A colleague from Munich summed it up, by stating that our $0.11/kwhr rates for power were way too low. He doesn't get that the extra price he pays for power is part of the problem. 

 This is symptomatic of discussions in the UK around alignment. It's a single datapoint, so let's not get hung up on how much to read into it but superficially it plays into a fundamental argument: Should the UK be aligning itself with a "US model" which focuses on productivity and efficiency or a "European model" which celebrates a social contract and aims for responsible management of resources.

 The UK is failing to find a middle path between capitalist exploitation of resources with a "race to the bottom" on food, welfare and environmental standards, healthcare provision and others, no doubt, and a social and environmental commitment than saps efficiency.

 One side argues that the EU is in a downward spiral, doomed to fail because the contract is unsustainable and the legislation around the environment cripples the economy

 The other that "red blooded capitalism" is a race to the bottom in welfare, healthcare food standards, work/life balance and exploitation of the "poor" by the "rich".

 Should we have cheap electricity if that means burning fossil fuels and destroying the environment? Should we have expensive electricity, responsibly generated but cripplingly expensive for industry (including HVAC in the service sector) and for those on low incomes (fuel poverty)?

 The details are moot: I don't think there's any value in debating the "correct" price for electricity, whether the US generation is irresponsibly cheap and doing the damage that's claimed or whether the price in Germany actually has anything to do with environmental impact. The point is that there is a key argument around Brexit in the UK and the country's direction of travel.

 Having failed to find this path to date, the UK is now busy agonising over which direction to take and not acknowledging that the current shit fest is making things worse: The polarisation is making it ever harder to find a middle way between the claimed "over-regulation" of the EU and the "capitalist disaster" that the USA route offers.

 We are not leading, we are choosing who to follow into the shadows.

Cheers,

              W.

 

 

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3 hours ago, LeoV said:

One fatal flaw in no presence on the border if NI/Ireland but further from it;

Derry city limits, 2nd largest city in NI is 1 mile from the border. Unless you move the whole city, that forces a check right back on the border.

 

Quote

There is a risk of organised crime expanding in Northern Ireland after Brexit, a new report has said.

The Organised Crime Task Force (OCTF) has warned the gangs could seek to exploit any new tariffs or other arrangements.

In its annual report, it said the no-deal scenario would lead to "potential new criminal markets for previously legitimate commodities".

But the group stressed it could counter any new threats that developed.

Claire Archbold, director of safer communities at the Department of Justice said: "None of us know on what terms the UK will leave the EU but we do know that wherever there is a border, organised crime will try to exploit it."

She said the task force was agile and could adapt to changes in organised crime, whether they be currency fluctuations or Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49733348

Not exactly new information, just a confirmation yet again of whats been pointed out repeatedly. 

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Not exactly new information, just a confirmation yet again of whats been pointed out repeatedly. 

Yep, but now when I hear border control away from the border I think Derry 1km from border, and unicorns.

 

2 hours ago, KC375 said:

He cast doubt on two ideas put forward by the UK - a single all-Ireland zone for agriculture and livestock and a Northern Irish veto over EU rules.

So Presto was right, damn. I really think BJ and gang does know as much about SM as and average Joe in the streets.
And NI veto, well, no, enough said.

Or he is playing the see I am talking while bringing crap proposals, or he really thinks this is an solution.
FT had a comment from EU officials that BJ was schooled by Juncker and Barnier in Lux, he seemed not to understand much of SM and customs in general.
Or he played dumb, but I think his ego is to big to do that.
 

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