Meat Wad

Brexit, WTF

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Michel Barnier will lead a "U.K. Task Force" in the next European Commission, effectively continuing his work as EU Brexit negotiator into the next phase of talks on a future trading arrangement.

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Does such a "tipping point" actually exist in the UK where people will say... fuck Brexit and be prepared to even put Corbyn in to stop it?

 

 

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Boris hopes the HOC will have no time to explore what Brexit Transition actual means. Are they going to fall for that? If they don't look to transfer transition extension power to Parliament?

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Very sobering....you don't have to be a rocket scientist to reflect back to the periods when the Provisional IRA were exasperated with their cease fires not bearing results. In the mid 1990's there was such a cease fire but with Sinn Fein being denied a place at the GFA negotiation table.

The PIRA took their fight to the streets of London (Docklands) and Manchester with devestating effect in 1996. Extra chairs were very quickly found at the GFA table.

Going to the mainland then also dovetailed into resultant diminishing support at home with the collateral impacts upon harmless citizens being imposed by both sides. Today that support is negligible further uinderpinning that mainland strategy.

Brexit being a north south border threat is possibly being overrated. This guy seems to support that.

 

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Is the DUP and support base now channelling Carson in 1921 at the time of partition creating the Irish Free State (Republic) by carving out the 6 Ulster counties (Nth Ireland)?

If so they will never support any Brexit that works for everyone else.

EHTun6AW4AAWVb6.jpeg

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

A shitshow. No regulatory economic impact statements having regard to around double digit negative  impacts on GDP. Ministers who do not even understand if Northern Ireland will have to fill out export forms to send goods within the UK. And they want to bludgeon 65 million people to death to get it through in three days.

No government in the developed world could get away with this. Can someone explain why Johnson thinks he can???

 

Because he has such a strong winning streak in the House of Commons

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Michel Barnier will lead a "U.K. Task Force" in the next European Commission, effectively continuing his work as EU Brexit negotiator into the next phase of talks on a future trading arrangement.

He is nuts or into self harm.

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

He is nuts or into self harm.

or rather the best man for the job, having had the past experience, being on top of his game and having fun rattling the cohones of the brits ?

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On 10/17/2019 at 11:55 AM, jack_sparrow said:

£200,000 for pushing a button twice saying £10m between the time it takes to eat a sandwich is how some people make or lose money.

That may well be the case but to the wider economy it is irrelevant.

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Fuck...Gove gets his inspiration from this thread. 

He just told the HOC that WAB is a "vessel that has to sail now and reach its destination unholed by 31 October."

Ha Ha...All aboard the Titanic.

you comment was lacking the photo

 

_59566609_jex_1373888_de36-1.jpg

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24 minutes ago, bdu98252 said:

That may well be the case but to the wider economy it is irrelevant.

Really no benefit to wider economy??

UK imports totalled £670 billion 2018. 2p rise saves the country £13.4 billion annually b4 adjustments. Thats around 14 new Hospitals that can be built every year. Would pay off HS2 in less than 6 years.

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No irony that NI has been doing quite well out of it's Titanic connections of late

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You can go and play MP.

Don't understand why the fuckery of Govt putting up MV4 today and wasting more time incl Saturday?;No longer needed. ***

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

*** Contains provision doing away with need to have Parliament approve the Withdrawal Agreement/Deal/M4. It's only use being evidence of EU's agreement, drafting guidance for WAB and as a host for Letvin to prevent no deal that has now fallen away.

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https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr
Tories actually propose to legislate to prevent themselves from seeking anything other than hard customs and regulatory border Dover-Calais.
Govt message to any UK business with EU supply chains: you have until Dec 2020 to relocate within the single market.
(advisor for May)

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Clearly this women has an ant for a brain. Remove what existing barriers? FTA's actually build mutual barriers. The word "Free" does not mean free. "Controlled" is a better word  but not very sexy.

Good luck doing deals with those 50 countries that you already have FTA's with via EU. Have you checked your market size compared to EU lately? Do you think they will change their EU compliant supply chain to match your new whackjob ones.

Liz I couldn't read your piece in the Telegraph. It's paywalled so I breathed a sigh of relief.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Govt message to any UK business with EU supply chains: you have until Dec 2020 to relocate within the single market.
(advisor for May)

Wake up Nth Ireland...here we come.

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27 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Clearly this women has an ant for a brain. Remove what existing barriers? FTA's actually build mutual barriers. The word free does not mean free.

Good luck doing deals with those 50 countries that you already have FTA's with via EU. Have you checked your market size compared to EU lately? Do you think they will change their EU standard supply chain to match your new whackjob ones?

Liz I couldn't read your piece in the Telegraph. It's paywalled so I breathed a sigh of relief.

 

 

Liz: simple 3rd class mathematics:

No free movement of EU workers = no FTA

No custums union = no FTA

No FTA = Tariffs

Tariffs = exporting industry needs to leave UK

industry leaves = Jobs leave

no jobs in UK = people won´t love you

people don´t love you = you better leave

 

good luck Liz, that´s simple logic for 10 year old kids, when do you reach that age?

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Does such a "tipping point" actually exist in the UK where people will say... fuck Brexit and be prepared to even put Corbyn in to stop it?

 

 

Or is there a tipping point were the people imprison all the mp's for not doing as asked and promised and start with a new lot who will.

Tipping points can go both ways. At present I would think most are tired of mp's behaving like children and not doing their job. I am sure this idea will go down like a cup of cold sick here as this thread is now just a bunch of remoaners having a joint circle jerk.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Clearly this women has an ant for a brain. Remove what existing barriers? FTA's actually build mutual barriers. The word "Free" does not mean free. "Controlled" is a better word  but not very sexy.

Good luck doing deals with those 50 countries that you already have FTA's with via EU. Have you checked your market size compared to EU lately? Do you think they will change their EU compliant supply chain to match your new whackjob ones.

Liz I couldn't read your piece in the Telegraph. It's paywalled so I breathed a sigh of relief.

 

 

You have to wonder how many politicians are positioning themselves for giving themselves the best chance at re-election and/or promotion, as opposed to expression their true beliefs and what they think is best for Britain? 

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Just now, The Dark Knight said:

You have to wonder how many politicians are positioning themselves for giving themselves the best chance at re-election and/or promotion, as opposed to expression their true beliefs and what they think is best for Britain? 

Sorry, stupid question. Answer is 100%

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8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Boris hopes the HOC will have no time to explore what Brexit Transition actual means. Are they going to fall for that? If they don't look to transfer transition extension power to Parliament?

Well it didn't take long.

That said this is low hanging fruit as this No Deal default at end of next year is clearly spelt out in Boris's Deal and debated on Saturday. It also a mirror end to end image of A.50 that they voted on, but with an automatic crash out. They won't be making that mistake again. No Extension Decision = December No Deal.

BTW this extension decision has to be made by the Government by no later than June or only 8 months away then put to Parliament.

 

In the HOC this week this one provision alone will end end up a shit fight with inconclusive debate and maybe a stalemate.

It is probably the only provision that has caused the ERG Spartans to back Boris's Deal and this Bill.

This religious cult led by Baker with their kamikaze Brexit War beliefs have made it abundantly clear at their meeting on Saturday and recorded here, that they are going to cause the UK to crash out with No Deal next year. The economic, political, societal, cultural, etc, costs to the UK are immaterial to them.

If they don't roll over and accept that the extension decision is transfered from the Government to Parliament, this Bill is doomed and maybe even their precious Brexit Temple.

 

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4 hours ago, Gissie said:

Tipping points can go both ways. At present I would think most are tired of mp's behaving like children and not doing their job.

I was thinking they had already reached that "tipping point" going to the right and with no way of expressing it via poll/GE etc that swings pendulum like back the other way as it has no where else to go. 

4 hours ago, Gissie said:

I am sure this idea will go down like a cup of cold sick here as this thread is now just a bunch of remoaners having a joint circle jerk.

That Brexiteer Remoaner Radio song is 3 years old and pretty stale for half the country it is directed at.

A more interesting one would be to sing what actually happens if we Brexit with Boris? No one including Parliament has been told that via a regulatory Impact Statement that attaches normally to all legislation. Seems Boris agrees with you and also thinks that is just "circle jerk" stuff.

Anyway when people see the dumb fuck things being said time and time again by those leading the Brexit Band (and pointed out in this thread), my guess is one day they will, after being patient towards the Leaver view will stand up, turn the radio off saying "enough is enough, you had you chance".

That I think is what you call a Brexit "tipping point" and can be tipped by those from both sides in the one direction.

Maybe why Boris is scared everyday this drags on for a minute longer? November is that "tipping point."

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7 hours ago, Gissie said:

Or is there a tipping point were the people imprison all the mp's for not doing as asked and promised and start with a new lot who will.

Tipping points can go both ways. At present I would think most are tired of mp's behaving like children and not doing their job. I am sure this idea will go down like a cup of cold sick here as this thread is now just a bunch of remoaners having a joint circle jerk.

Nobody voted for this financial suicide, this is not the utopia that leaving was meant to be when it all started, and to blindly carry on over the cliff edge with absolutely no idea what’s below is lunacy. That’s not remoaning, that’s just being sensible. 
 

you forgot to add some other buzz phrases. 
 

The will of the people

17.4 million

Get back sovereignty 

350 million for the NHS. 

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As I said, this is purely a remain thread. I seldom bother to come here so will leave the five of you to have at it.

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

As I said, this is purely a remain thread. I seldom bother to come here so will leave the five of you to have at it.

Feel free to state your views on why you think Brexit is a good idea? I’d be genuinely interested to hear. 

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7 hours ago, Gissie said:

Tipping points can go both ways. At present I would think most are tired of mp's behaving like children and not doing their job. I am sure this idea will go down like a cup of cold sick here as this thread is now just a bunch of remoaners having a joint circle jerk.

A few remainers, a few who does not mind a exit with a deal that assures more alignment then No Deal, a few who only really bother with NI problem and for the rest the UK can go its way. But a lot of people who can not believe the dictatorial tricks from a government as the UK.
MP's do not behave like children, they behave like selfish egomaniacs.

I am happy the NI problem seems solved for Ireland in this deal. So less likely for troubles there. Only loyalists will have problems with this but their British friends left them behind.

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5 minutes ago, mad said:

Feel free to state your views on why you think Brexit is a good idea? I’d be genuinely interested to hear. 

I am reasonably neutral as it doesn't impact me directly. My concern is the behaviour of those involved and the damage done to the parliamentary system. This does affect me as we use the same system.

To use the excuse that if you can put something off for long enough by bending/breaking the rules is bullshit. To use the excuse that lots of youngsters didn't vote is bullshit. To use the excuse leave lied without accepting remain did just as much is bullshit. To claim is is all to save democracy is bullshit.

So good answer or not, it was what happened. The main parties had an election promise to follow through. They haven't and have lied and cheated to stop it. That is my problem. What happens when there are protests after the next election. Where this is going to lead and the legal challenges it has made possible is my problem.

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18 minutes ago, mad said:

Feel free to state your views on why you think Brexit is a good idea? I’d be genuinely interested to hear. 

It feels good, we will be poorer at least for 50 years, but no Junckers. Not many perks except we can launder money for oligarchs.
Oh and the EU will collapse, so be out early. (doomsday cult).
And I repeat, no Junckers.

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2 minutes ago, LeoV said:

 But a lot of people who can not believe the dictatorial tricks from a government as the UK.

But have no problem with the bending and breaking the rules by those that want to remain. Seems to be a huge double standard, which makes it all become an echo chamber with no balance.

As for the present government, it is trying to do what was in its last election manifesto, much like Labour had. Not sure how that could be dictatorial.

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1 minute ago, LeoV said:

It feels good, we will be poorer at least for 50 years, but no Junckers. Not many perks except we can launder money for oligarchs.
Oh and the EU will collapse, so be out early. (doomsday cult).
And I repeat, no Junckers.

Must be good to be such a good clairvoyant. Surprised you needed to even ask me a question, or are you just checking to see if I know what I really think.

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5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The main parties had an election promise to follow through. They haven't and have lied and cheated to stop it.

More then half of the PM's did interpret that promise differently. So if you take out all the BS you named, young, cheating etc (I agree) this is what stands.
Tories defying a promise in a narrow way. Would be no problem if more accepted that view.

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Not sure how that could be dictatorial.

Seems you have a problem recognizing dictatorial tricks. Tories are breaking the rules as much or even more.
And if you do not see the differences between Lab and Tory manifesto, you are blind.

Yes, I want to hear your arguments for a Brexit. I can relate to the fact that my gut says, I want a local government not an EU one. But then my head kicks in and see it has advantages.

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2 minutes ago, LeoV said:

More then half of the PM's did interpret that promise differently. So if you take out all the BS you named, young, cheating etc (I agree) this is what stands.
Tories defying a promise in a narrow way. Would be no problem if more accepted that view.

Not sure how it could be interpreted any way but find a way to leave. But then I'm not a politician so feel that keeping a promise is the right thing to do. It allows me to sleep well.

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6 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Not sure how it could be interpreted any way but find a way to leave. But then I'm not a politician so feel that keeping a promise is the right thing to do. It allows me to sleep well.

People were asked if they wanted to leave, they did want that. Tories thought so too and called election to get their numbers up to get that done their way. People voted: no. Iirc Labour did also campaign for brexit, but it had to be done their way. Both seem to have kept their promises.

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There are hundred ways to leave your lover, hence why divorce lawyers make good money.

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1 minute ago, LeoV said:

Seems you have a problem recognizing dictatorial tricks. Tories are breaking the rules as much or even more.
And if you do not see the differences between Lab and Tory manifesto, you are blind.

Yes, I want to hear your arguments for a Brexit. I can relate to the fact that my gut says, I want a local government not an EU one. But then my head kicks in and see it has advantages.

I can agree that the leave supporters are pushing the rules, I don't think they go anywhere near as far as the remain, but how can that be used as justification. They do it so we can? Nah, that is just making an excuse to your own moral compass.

As for Brexit. I can see good on both sides. Many of the reasons are to do with heart of course. You immediately ridicule them as it may cost money. Some times people are prepared to sacrifice money for an ideal. Just the way things are. Plus money, those with none may as well go for the ideal as they have bugger all to lose. Of course they are then branded ignorant, racist fascists. Not a helpful way to try and move on.

Remain has ideals as well, but you accept them as okay and worth defending. So you should. But not by denigrating those that think differently.

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3 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

People were asked if they wanted to leave, they did want that. Tories thought so too and called election to get their numbers up to get that done their way. People voted: no. Iirc Labour did also campaign for brexit, but it had to be done their way. Both seem to have kept their promises.

But Labour don't want to leave at all, so they lied. As for people voting no, why didn't the libdems win if that was the case. Instead most of the votes went to parties that said they would vacillitate leaving.

So a part of one side seem to be trying to keep their promise.

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3 minutes ago, Gissie said:

I can agree that the leave supporters are pushing the rules, I don't think they go anywhere near as far as the remain, but how can that be used as justification. They do it so we can? Nah, that is just making an excuse to your own moral compass.

Leaver's trickery with rules is well hashed here, but remainers' less so. Could you educate me, so I could check their works also.

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Gissie, that is why Tusk remark was so on the point.There was not a single view what exit was. Hence the mess.

NO, you interpret my remark wrong, I have in the past let money go in jobs because it did not feel good morally. Nothing ridiculous on that. And in boatbuilding that happens. Will not work for someone with a sketchy report on paying debts. Or in Egypt building defence boats, or in Spain building drug delivery boats. Refused them all.

Really leave not pushing the rules as far as remain ? You missed a lot then.

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5 minutes ago, LeoV said:

There are hundred ways to leave your lover, hence why divorce lawyers make good money.

Absolutely and this is just a big one. It is also the reason that a no deal had to be kept on the table.

Can you imagine the reaction of your lawyer if you told them your plan was to get a good deal or you would just stay. Especially when your partner wanted you to stay. Probably asked to find a new lawyer.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

But Labour don't want to leave at all, so they lied.

Wrong, you missed a lot. They want lab exit. But some Lab are pushing for remain, as some Tories actually do.

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No deal on the table -> Tories straight to No Deal. Without a majority. Without parliament a say. Dictatorial trick.
But it still can happen in 2020, except for NI.

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2 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Leaver's trickery with rules is well hashed here, but remainers' less so. Could you educate me, so I could check their works also.

Of course leavers trickery is well documented here, it's what thus place is for. It is not a place to consider wrong doing by remain and I doubt you would listen.

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

It is not a place to consider wrong doing by remain and I doubt you would listen.

Always fun to see a troll in action, first it starts reasonable, but ends in in this :)

The remain trickery is to battle leave trickery. As they still have not left it seems remain trickery is better, and leavers hate that.
But it always can turn around.

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1 minute ago, LeoV said:

No deal on the table -> Tories straight to No Deal. Without a majority. Without parliament a say. Dictatorial trick.
But it still can happen in 2020, except for NI.

That was the rules. Get a deal or leave. In theory Parliament had nothing to do with it, a government job. So not a dictatorial trick, following process. The rules were bent to allow parliament to over ride government.

A trick that is going to come back and bite governments in the future.

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

Of course leavers trickery is well documented here, it's what thus place is for. It is not a place to consider wrong doing by remain and I doubt you would listen.

Imo remainers fuckd up by not thinking that there was a majority or even a lot of people wanting to leave EU. Would it be remainer trickery that they started to work for brexit after the referendum?  

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2 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Always fun to see a troll in action, first it starts reasonable, but ends in in this :)

The remain trickery is to battle leave trickery. As they still have not left it seems remain trickery is better, and leavers hate that.
But it always can turn around.

Thanks far a bit of pleasant discourse, you are one of the more open here. However calling me a troll is a step to far and means you have no intention of taking my thoughts seriously, so enjoy the rest. It will be and interesting end of the month. Hopefully the bits don't screw themselves up to much more.

Cheers.

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1 minute ago, Gissie said:

That was the rules. Get a deal or leave. In theory Parliament had nothing to do with it, a government job. So not a dictatorial trick, following process. The rules were bent to allow parliament to over ride government.

A trick that is going to come back and bite governments in the future.

hahahah, research parliamentary democracy. Nope you do not recognize dictatorship. Rules were not bend, they were upheld. By court, in the UK.

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Gissie, you seem to see that I am not anti Brexit.
But your remark that people would not listen is troll like; qoute;
It is not a place to consider wrong doing by remain and I doubt you would listen.

I would listen.

 

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7 minutes ago, Gissie said:

That was the rules. Get a deal or leave. In theory Parliament had nothing to do with it, a government job. So not a dictatorial trick, following process. The rules were bent to allow parliament to over ride government.

A trick that is going to come back and bite governments in the future.

I thought parliament is the instance that holds the power that government wields, so it has everything to do with it. Government doing something without parliament's approval would be dictatorial trick.

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Just now, LeoV said:

hahahah, research parliamentary democracy. Nope you do not recognize dictatorship. Rules were not bend, they were upheld. By court, in the UK.

As a fairwell comment, have a look at the precedence thrown under the bus by the speaker. I think if you are after a dictator he would make a damn good one.

I hope that the whole mess doesn't cause to much hassle for you, or anyone else for that matter.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

That was the rules. Get a deal or leave. In theory Parliament had nothing to do with it, a government job. So not a dictatorial trick, following process. The rules were bent to allow parliament to over ride government.

Government / Parliament is not different. The Government is formed by majority consent of Parliament members who in theory want the same thing, when the majority of Pariliament want something different to what the previously consented to ruling Government offers this is what happens, rather than calling "surrender" and "blaming parliament" what the Government should be doing is what parliament asks, prevent no deal, instead what they are trying to do is ramrod through what they want, no deal, through trickery.

If they truely just wanted to "get brexit done" they would have agreed May's deal. What the hardliners want is "get my very specific interpretation of brexit done", which they have no mandate for, as the public was never asked what brexit meant.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

As a fairwell comment, have a look at the precedence thrown under the bus by the speaker. I think if you are after a dictator he would make a damn good one.

I hope that the whole mess doesn't cause to much hassle for you, or anyone else for that matter.

What precedence? And also do you have some remainer trickery for me to look at? Or are you just trolling?

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3 minutes ago, Gissie said:

As a fairwell comment, have a look at the precedence thrown under the bus by the speaker.

interesting was that JRM used that by blocking a 4 th MV as he said it was not in the rules, and now he himself wanted a 2d MV in 48 hrs.
Precedence throwing is used by both sides.

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Keir Starmer also finally hit the nail on the head on saturday, pointing out the only reason why the Tories don't want to maintain regulatory alignment, is they wish to provide less rights than which we currently have, you can always provide better workers right, stricter import controls, the only reason why you don't want the existing regs is you wish to provide less workers right, looser controls, etc etc

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7 minutes ago, Gissie said:

As a fairwell comment, have a look at the precedence thrown under the bus by the speaker. I think if you are after a dictator he would make a damn good one.

I hope that the whole mess doesn't cause to much hassle for you, or anyone else for that matter.

Remind me what was that precedence thrown out?

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Bercow as dictator, that is a spin. He is a referee using sometimes old laws almost forgotten to kerb abuse from the Tories, remember MV 1,2,3, on the same stuff.
If he did not stepped up they could have now MV 25. If you call that throwing precedence under the bus ????
The demonisation of Bercow on the hard Brexit side is rife.

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

I am reasonably neutral as it doesn't impact me directly. My concern is the behaviour of those involved and the damage done to the parliamentary system. This does affect me as we use the same system.

To use the excuse that if you can put something off for long enough by bending/breaking the rules is bullshit. To use the excuse that lots of youngsters didn't vote is bullshit. To use the excuse leave lied without accepting remain did just as much is bullshit. To claim is is all to save democracy is bullshit.

So good answer or not, it was what happened. The main parties had an election promise to follow through. They haven't and have lied and cheated to stop it. That is my problem. What happens when there are protests after the next election. Where this is going to lead and the legal challenges it has made possible is my problem.

Many people didn't vote......more fool them.  That's a fact.

Pro-Brexit groups have lied from day one and continue to - just look at the facts and investigations into breaking campaign funding, blatant lies told.  I've just seen a Tory MP dismiss her own governments findings on the financial impact of Brexit on the news 30 minutes ago, there has been no review of this current deal and a proposed record 3 days for it to pass through the houses. 

Is this something you'd like to see your own government do??

This is not democratic, this is an un-elected leader, with his new cabinet of ardent supporters desperately trying to push this through in the hope of saving their own political careers.

Image result for 350 million bus

Where have the pro-remain people lied?  

Where is this election promise?  No party has held a big enough majority to get this through. This current government doesn't even have a majority and until recently was depending on the DUP for support.  I suggest you have a quick look at what the DUP stand for and their policies, would you be happy if they were in power in your country?

 

Quote
On 10/20/2019 at 6:34 PM, jack_sparrow said:

The Government now admitting the new Brexit Yacht leaks, which wasn't in the brochure 3 years ago, but climbing aboard and sailing away is still the right thing to do because it was ordered. 

 

 

 

What sort of government does this??  Hit an already slow economy with a 4-6% slowdown for a period of time yet undetermined? 

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57 minutes ago, Upp3 said:
1 hour ago, Gissie said:

I can agree that the leave supporters are pushing the rules, I don't think they go anywhere near as far as the remain, but how can that be used as justification. They do it so we can? Nah, that is just making an excuse to your own moral compass.

Leaver's trickery with rules is well hashed here, but remainers' less so. Could you educate me, so I could check their works also.

I'd like to hear this as well.

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52 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Of course leavers trickery is well documented here, it's what thus place is for. It is not a place to consider wrong doing by remain and I doubt you would listen.

Lets hear it please?  I'm genuinely interested to hear the opposing view, especially if there are cites and actual evidence.

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34 minutes ago, mad said:

Lets hear it please?  I'm genuinely interested to hear the opposing view, especially if there are cites and actual evidence.

Well, Farage is a remainer now, so I guess his trickery counts?

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36 minutes ago, Bobbing Buoy said:

Well, Farage is a remainer now, so I guess his trickery counts?

His reputation for trickery  lying like fuck is beyond repute.

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Pissy Gissie Alert !

People, please leave that person alone.

He is one of the more annoying reactionary bigots over in the Greta thread. Don't waste your time.

Enough said...

 

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1 minute ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Pissy Gissie Alert !

People, please leave that person alone.

He is one of the more annoying reactionary bigots over in the Greta thread. Don't waste your time.

Enough said...

I would like to hear about those remainer stuff too. I think I could handle that. Would it change my opinion on brexit? Dunno. My stance on brexit seems to have gone from "Oh no!" to "Please go!"

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As they say, "Not my circus, not my monkeys," but having been brought up in a (mostly) representative democracy in the US, I find it disheartening to witness the steady unravelling of systems that have gotten us this far, and what feels like being pulled quicksand-like into chaos. That, and it's like watching a train wreak... you just have to watch  Quick googling shows UK population at 67.5 million, with 17.4 million (25.7%) "Leave" voters in the referendum. I accept that I may be talking out my ass, but it seems to me that the referendum was deeply flawed from the get-go, because you only had the choice between: A. What exists now (experience of 40+ years of life in the EU),  or B., NOT what exists now (which some older folks wistfully saw as a "return to the days of Rule Britannia").

I don't really have a problem with an open ended referendum -  a decent starting point... but IMHO following a "Leave" win there could have/should have then been a period of negotiations between UK and EU that would lead to a specific agreement, and then a second vote that basically would have said to the voters, "Oh, that thing that was tied up in a sack that some of you folks voted for? Here's what was actually inside the sack. Still want it?" I'm guess that voter turnout would likely have been higher, and hells bells, if that what people want, well good on them. 

Common sense, compromise and consensus in the free world, if not dead, are critically ill... perhaps with a bit of help from those by default who "win" if we lose? Good luck brothers and sisters. And now back to your usually scheduled programing...

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Quote
Posted at 12:1612:16

As many as 30 Labour rebels could back second reading

BBC political editor tweets...

Social embed from twitter

 

Labour poses to vote against both second reading and the timetable vote but maybe as many as 30 Labour rebels on second reading backing the concept if not the detail of the deal

 
 

Nobody knows the fucking details!!!

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The biggest problem still is, and was for the last 3 years, that there is no majority in parliament for any solution and only "No hard Brexit" has a majority. As could be witnessed when parliament took over control before the last extension. 4 different proposals and none got a majority. Starting negotiations without a clear idea what one wants and what of that is possible was the biggest mistake (and will be in any negotiation). Part of this is based on the opinion, which was also sold to the public, at the beginning of the negotiations that the EU would gladly allow the UK to cherry pick.

All this is also a reflection of the close vote in the referendum. The MPs and even goverment are as divided a the voting public was.

Also the constant "taking back control" argument specially in regards to product norms and regulations is complete BS. Sure, after a Brexit the UK can change all they want but products produced below EU standards will not be sold there. And where is the UKs biggest market? Even China produces products for the EU market according to Brussels standards.

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5 hours ago, Gissie said:

So good answer or not, it was what happened. The main parties had an election promise to follow through. They haven't and have lied and cheated to stop it. That is my problem.

Your problem is wrong based on not knowing individual party manifestos that differentiate 2 Brexits and balance remain. Track that against the 3 meaningful votes taken to date (where the last vote did not include the political declaration so less meaningfull) the list of those who have voted Brexit down are hardcore Tory & DUP Brexiteers. That list is headed by current PM who voted Brexit down twice. 

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Just heard BJ statement; lying is first nature. Switched it of after 3 lies, only took a few minutes.
Lady Hermon has my respect, nice and short; says that the prime minister must not take the people of Northern Ireland for fools and must explain the implications of the deal to the people of the region.

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4 hours ago, Gissie said:

But Labour don't want to leave at all, so they lied.

Last quote as you are trolling. More remain MP's compared to Tory's but rump of Labour MP's would only ever vote for a Brexit that had UK staying in Single Market, a Brexit Deal never put up by the Govt. 

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4 hours ago, Gissie said:

As a fairwell comment, have a look at the precedence thrown under the bus by the speaker.

Couldn't resist. Precedent to Speaker rejecting MV3 yesterday was his rejection of MV3 #1 on exact "same question" basis and Speaker was applauded by Brexitters for doing that.

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Lets see if they tonight agree on the timetable. It is again like Art 50, vote for it, and later regret it as it pushes deadlines without knowledge as the WAB is to complex to understand in a few hours.

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11 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Just heard BJ statement; lying is first nature. Switched it of after 3 lies, only took a few minutes.

Yeah watching too. Since sending letter on Sat night the biggest lie now is still claiming leaving on 31 Oct without a Deal can happen.  It's dead as a dodo.

Leaving with a Deal before 31 Oct is just about dead too unless there are some big reversals starting with the Spartans to avoid No Deal at end of 2020 and a softer Brexit outcome being settled.

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Then it is an election, but it is to close to call at the moment.

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BJ, who would believe that I could  EU opened withdrawal.
Then a few minutes later; this New Great Deal is the last deal, EU would never open withdrawal again.

 

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Now that Corbyn has flipped and put referendum in front of GE VONC is dead. Has Boris hasn't got the balls to make it his Deal or he will Resign? Doubt it.

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18 minutes ago, LeoV said:

BJ, who would believe that I could  EU opened withdrawal.
Then a few minutes later; this New Great Deal is the last deal, EU would never open withdrawal again.

 

He never repeats now his  Benn Act would produce a Surrender Deal. He the great negotiator has made the EU capitulate to a Great Deal.

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Everybody knows the EU would open the WB in a second for a customs union.
The sheer lies are incredible plus a list of promises without guarantees.

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15 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

You can go and play MP.

Don't understand why the fuckery of Govt putting up MV4 today and wasting more time incl Saturday?;No longer needed. ***

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

*** Contains provision doing away with need to have Parliament approve the Withdrawal Agreement/Deal/M4. It's only use being evidence of EU's agreement, drafting guidance for WAB and as a host for Letvin to prevent no deal that has now fallen away.

For those confused. This is how Boris blew up the need to have Parliament approve the Withdrawal Agreement/Deal/MV4.

RIP Deal.

EHbOan9WkAAC3m5.jpeg

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11 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Everybody knows the EU would open the WB in a second for a customs union.

I see Ken Clarke the one who put up WAB amendment to include Customs Union. That is a better look than coming from Labour. Think it will struggle though.

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Remember the EU taskforce is watching this too. KC could be talking to them.

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A Tweet from the Edwardian Pencil stating anyone who votes the Government's WAB programme "down" are voting AGAINST Brexit.

Remembering that this programme "down vote" is now made possible to avoid a No Deal crash out on 31 Oct courtesy of Oliver Letvin's Amendment passed on Saturday (where he stated will vote for Boris's Deal) and HOC majority who voted for Benn Act.

Times Voted FOR Brexit in the HoC:

Oliver Letwin: 3 times

Benn HOC 328: 3 times by many

Boris Johnson: 1 time

Jacob Rees-Mogg: 1 time

ERG Spartans: 0

Yet if program "voted down", guessing what newspaper FP headlines say tomorrow about blame for "delay" requires little imagination. #10 spin.

 

 

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Best part of Brexit was and is living outside the splash zone. B)

 

1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Just heard BJ statement; lying is first nature. Switched it of after 3 lies, only took a few minutes.
Lady Hermon has my respect, nice and short; says that the prime minister must not take the people of Northern Ireland for fools and must explain the implications of the deal to the people of the region.

Seems simple enough to me.

If the politicians of Northern Ireland dislike the deal they get so much as the DUP says they can vote against it after ? years or perhaps make that for some reason Stormont does not sit at the time. In that case -and by their own choice- the special NI deal is gone and NI reverts fully to GB rules. Whatever they may be at the time.
Oh. One more thing. For all practical purposes and obvious reasons that means that the hard border is on. But that will be by (in)decision of Stormont and thus obviously not bOjO's problem. After all it will be NI politicians that are stupid enough to blow up the GFA...

 

The problem I see is that reverting to UK rules is the default. Either by simple majority (no cross community consent required) or by Stormont not sitting. What could possibly go wrong....

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49 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Remember the EU taskforce is watching this too. KC could be talking to them.

They will have their calculators out working out a EU Customs Union € Fee for the UK..LOL