Meat Wad

Brexit, WTF

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2 hours ago, LeoV said:

Tcatman I bet Wayne keeps hammering on trade. I have him on ignore, to trolling.
Guide to understand Brexiteers;
1-many leavers think they will do better on trade outside the EU, Lost case, sunlit uplands do not exists.

2-sovereignty, so border/immigration control and own rules.
Good reason to leave for many, and only doable with hard Brexit.
Problematic with GFA.
They are afraid of a ever closer union.

3- Leuditte reasoning, the EU will collapse. A very dogmatic view. And simplistic.

4- Eu cost to much and does nothing in return, everyone who does a little research with an open mind sees the flaw in that.

5- Eu is undemocratic, pot kettle discussion.

Guys, that is so stereotyped  and written with little understanding of the reasons why people in the UK voted out, one could say that was written by a person not living in the UK and who only has his head in a computer.

I think a Remainer friend summed up Leo's view nicely when he said openly that those out in the country didn't know what they were voting for, but those in London did. Being a high ranking businessman within a large company, I thought that here was a man who really didn't know how the rest of society worked and he himself was probably the reason why many voted to Leave. Many here would agree on his views and that is where you guys have been so consistently wrong.

The campaign for the referendum went on for literally years ( with the unofficial lead up to the actual vote ), there was just vast amounts of information out there and the Remain campaign used every trick in the book to inform the voters of the possible perils of voting Leave, and yet in the biggest ever vote in the UK ( there had been so much of a build up, who wouldn't have known there was vote ) the voters still voted out. Now you can argue all you like that the Leave campaign also used every trick in the book, but on balance both sides probably were as bad as each other.

As to why, that can't be really summed up here as there were literally 1000's of individual reasons, that was probably down to information overload in some ways, but through the prolonged campaign and just the sheer bulk of media and TV time, everybody had made up their mind in one or other way. The number of people who you spoke to at the time, even those who you would have considered least political, had a view for or against. That huge media focus and the huge information that was available meant simply that every man and his dog went and voted because they had made up their minds and wanted to vote.

Now as to Leo's 5 point plan to understand a Brexiteer, sorry Leo, if you could just for 5 minutes extract yourself from your computer world and take a walk outside and meet people outside of your politicized circles, you may find there's a 1005 reasons why people voted out. 

 

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:


1-many leavers think they will do better on trade outside the EU, Lost case, sunlit uplands do not exists.

 

Whatever the marketing hype, I doubt that any of the more serious Brexit advocates believe that the trade balance will improve by leaving the Common Market.

The UK economy is not so complicated. The UK exports services and imports goods.   The EU is the most powerful trade negotiator in the world with Most Favored Nation status with almost every trading partner on the planet. There is no way on God's earth that the UK is going to get better terms of trade than the EU with any attractive market for UK goods and services , except for a few outliers who have agricultural exports and no possibility of representing a growth market for UK services...in other words, nothing good for the UK.

The largest  UK services exports are #1 Europe  (in round numbers 150 billion pounds) , #2 The USA (a distant 2nd at 75 billion pounds)  #3 Asia (at around 40 billion pounds)

The US has several regulatory and trade barriers in place to its service sector from the UK. The EU has several trade and regulatory barriers in place to protect the European service sector from the US (notably in finance and digital data), which has allowed the dominance of UK firms..

The US is showing zero signs of making it easier for UK service providers  in the USA, but will likely press the UK and the EU to lower their barriers to US companies after withdrawal. The UK because they will be desperate. The EU because once the UK withdraws, then US competitors will argue that the playing field should be level in Europe for US companies vs UK companies (and they have a point) . They will not level the playing field in the US because in areas like Finance , Pharma and logistics the US feels they have to protect the consumer.

The arguments for Brexit are entirely socio-political.  1. Sovereignty. The UK leavers do not like UK trade and commerce courts subject to appeal to the ECJ  (2) Religion and Race. The Leavers want to secure UK borders from  migration that may dilute the British "way of life"   (3) Too much regulation.  Some of those reasons may . at times, come across as xenophobic and racist but they underlie a deep dissatisfaction with Westminster. Any attempt to debate economics with a Brexiteer is missing the 2 or 3 more important reasons Brexit has regional support

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Guys, that is so stereotyped  and written with little understanding of the reasons why people in the UK voted out,

 

Wayne and I actually agree for a change. I dont think the Leave vote can be traced back to an economic rationale.  It was a measure of dissatisfaction with a status quo that had left them behind.   This was sociologic and political.  The slogan was not "Lets make better trade deals", the slogan was "Lets take back control"

Quote

As to why, that can't be really summed up here as there were literally 1000's of individual reasons, that was probably down to information overload in some ways,.... That huge media focus and the huge information that was available meant simply that every man and his dog went and voted because they had made up their minds and wanted to vote.

 

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IPlore,again you are stereotyping and writing what you have seen in the press, yes you are possibly correct, but you could do a survey of 10000 Brexiteers and you wouldn't find a definitive answer. And that is where Leo and the majority of the so called erudite Remainers simply will never understand, there's no one reason why people voted as they did. 

But here's the nub, if enough people vote in a referendum you will get a democratic answer, it maybe not the answer you want but never the less the majority have made a decision.

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54 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Guys, that is so stereotyped  and written with little understanding of the reasons why people in the UK voted out, one could say that was written by a person not living in the UK and who only has his head in a computer.

I think a Remainer friend summed up Leo's view nicely when he said openly that those out in the country didn't know what they were voting for, but those in London did. Being a high ranking businessman within a large company, I thought that here was a man who really didn't know how the rest of society worked and he himself was probably the reason why many voted to Leave. Many here would agree on his views and that is where you guys have been so consistently wrong.

The campaign for the referendum went on for literally years ( with the unofficial lead up to the actual vote ), there was just vast amounts of information out there and the Remain campaign used every trick in the book to inform the voters of the possible perils of voting Leave, and yet in the biggest ever vote in the UK ( there had been so much of a build up, who wouldn't have known there was vote ) the voters still voted out. Now you can argue all you like that the Leave campaign also used every trick in the book, but on balance both sides probably were as bad as each other.

As to why, that can't be really summed up here as there were literally 1000's of individual reasons, that was probably down to information overload in some ways, but through the prolonged campaign and just the sheer bulk of media and TV time, everybody had made up their mind in one or other way. The number of people who you spoke to at the time, even those who you would have considered least political, had a view for or against. That huge media focus and the huge information that was available meant simply that every man and his dog went and voted because they had made up their minds and wanted to vote.

Now as to Leo's 5 point plan to understand a Brexiteer, sorry Leo, if you could just for 5 minutes extract yourself from your computer world and take a walk outside and meet people outside of your politicized circles, you may find there's a 1005 reasons why people voted out. 

 

Wayne I think you can do better.

In my experience when people are not willing to get specific about their reasons means one or more of:

1.       They fear exposing the absence or weakness of their reasons;

2.       They have emotions rather than reasons;

3.       Their reasons are contradictory and inconsistent.

 

As I’ve articulated before I can see a cogent (but not very compelling) argument for leaving the EU to form a more perfect socialist paradise.

I can see an argument around a preference national liberty and self determination that accepts an economic cost in exchange for independence. (not a choice I’d make but one I could appreciate).

I’ve heard arguments for an all conquering freetrading swash buckling Britannia II ruling the waves as a freemarket privateer. Which I think requires a level of self delusion to believe in.

The problem is some of what I believe are firmly held reasons for leaving are mutually incompatible and therefore it is deceitful and unhelpful to all to lump all versions of / reasons for Brexit together.

In a simplified form I can understand I think of Brexit as a bit like what my family would do if we won the lotto. We are OK with where we live but it’s not perfect. If we had the family chat about stay or go I’m pretty comfortable the majority would vote go. But knowing my family some opting for go would be thinking southern California or Florida for the weather and they’d be willing to suffer/ignore the more right wing politics (relative to their views)...and an equal group would be say yes let’s go we can now afford to live in Scandinavia (or Vermont) where there is a much more egalitarian society that more than makes up for a few months of winter darkness. Between the year-round suntan vs social egalitarian they might both agree to stay where we are rather than accept the other version of leaving.

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13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I dont think the Leave vote can be traced back to an economic rationale. 

Do some research, the economic rationale was there, not the one reason, but they used it. EU is to protectionist and the UK would prosper outside.
Many many sources for that;
https://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit-0

And Wayne is probably trying to insult again, and not contributing to discussion, very weak, 1000 reasons to many to write down, classic troll.

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4 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Interesting to see Jacko and LeoV continue to work themselves into such a froth about something that they absolutely have no input nor any achievable end game other than waste their own personal time ( they seem absolutely dedicated to the cause of Brexit ) , or have I missed something.

Just to get a bit of Leave perspective if any readers actually have an open minded view on the Brexit, there are plenty of other opinions based on facts and opinions of other experts other than Jack and Leo. Remember guys & gals, there are two sides to every story.

For a bit of Brexit Party action from the former head of the  British Chambers of Commerce ( with 30 reasons why we should go to WTO rules from Lord Lilly )

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/14/standing-brexit-party/ 

and a bit of prediction on how Brexit may well pan out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/04/13/janet-daleythis-remainers-plan-destroy-brexit/

 

 

The EU has the UK by the balls. The UK totally missed any opportunity to negotiate with the EU from any position of strength because the Brexit side had no plan or vision. The UK is the worlds laughing stock. Once outside of the EU, no one in the EU will be in any rush to make anything easy for the UK. The EU will make it difficult to rejoin any international trade organisations. Eventually the UK will join the trade organisations, sign trade deals, even with the EU and even get a strong economy, but this will be at a massive cost and a generation of hardships.

Now that far right parties within EU countries have had a reality shock and have dropped their EUxit plans and now want to reform the EU from within. If the UK stays it will be an opportunity for the UK to help with those reforms.

The people who are pushing the Brexit barrel are not going to be hurt by the post Brexit economic chaos,  but the average Brit who they have hoodwinked will be fucked.

  

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5 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Now you can argue all you like that the Leave campaign also used every trick in the book, but on balance both sides probably were as bad as each other.

 

4 hours ago, IPLore said:

Wayne and I actually agree for a change. I dont think the Leave vote can be traced back to an economic rationale.  It was a measure of dissatisfaction with a status quo that had left them behind.  

I think you are both wrong for these reasons. The Top 6 lies favoured Leave by 4. One Boris's is the subject of on going legal action. All but 1 was economic and that was Leave on immigration.

The Leave campaign was simple, very effective and cut through using the "positive" largely based on lies. The economic rationale also dominated the Leave campaign, was very simple and underpinned their largest lies. The EU is robbing us, are protectionist and the UK is better outside it.

Apart from lying about the ease of securing trade deals they avoided like the plague explaining words like "customs union" and "single market," any post Brexit economic detail such as how long it would take to reap the benefits (Rees Mogg now admits 30 years), loss in GDP in the interim etc. They left the Remain campaign to flounder alone with this and a subject few understood.

For example here are probably the top 3 Leave Lies all economic. The 4th a immigration lie carefuly disguised as Turkey joining the EU and opening the gate to refugees from the middle east.

LEAVE LIES

1. ‘Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’ – Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan

2. ‘Once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350m per week’ – Boris Johnson

3. ‘The UK loses out because other members favour a highly regulated and protectionist economy’ – Jacob Rees-Mogg

4. ‘Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU’ – Vote Leave publicity

REMAIN 

On the other hand the Remain campaign spoke in the "negative" and had no cut through and so in effect their lies had no cut through. For instance the economy would crash (requiring Govt expenditure to counter) post the Referendum. While GDP has suffered to tune of $600m/week, it hasn't crashed. The UK economy post Brexit they were left alone to argue but having no audience as the Leave campaign avoided going there and giving any debate oxygen.

1. ‘We will need an emergency Budget (post referendum) to restore stability to public finances’ – George Osborne (Chancellor replaced after referendum)

2. Two thirds of British jobs in manufacturing are dependent on demand from Europe’ – Alan Johnson (more like 17%).

So it would appear lies and lies about the economy played a large part in the result. It also may have a large bearing on how post referendum any discussion on post Brexit economics is seen by many Leavers as scare tactics as it is effectively a fresh subject they have not been exposed to.

The counter to these lies in this thread.

https://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-second-referendum-false-claims-eu-referendum-campaign-lies-fake-news-a8113381.html#explainer-question-2

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Now that far right parties within EU countries have had a reality shock and have dropped their EUxit plans and now want to reform the EU from within. If the UK stays it will be an opportunity for the UK to help with those reforms.

Amplified when with all the EU "opt ins" the UK are looking for with a soft Brexit, they will have to pay for them, but have no say in them or ability to piss on anybody.

As this guy said about J Edgar Hoover.

"It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in." Lyndon Johnson, as quoted in The New York Times (31 October 1971).

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5 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

IPlore,again you are stereotyping and writing what you have seen in the press, Show me a concrete example in the press, saying  what I just wrote  

yes you are possibly correct, you could do a survey of 10000 Brexiteers and you wouldn't find an ..answer. And that is where Leo and the majority of the so called erudite Remainers simply will never understand, there's no reason why people voted as they did.

I concur

 

 

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8 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Guys, that is so stereotyped  and written with little understanding of the reasons why people in the UK voted out, one could say that was written by a person not living in the UK and who only has his head in a computer.

I think a Remainer friend summed up Leo's view nicely when he said openly that those out in the country didn't know what they were voting for, but those in London did. Being a high ranking businessman within a large company, I thought that here was a man who really didn't know how the rest of society worked and he himself was probably the reason why many voted to Leave. Many here would agree on his views and that is where you guys have been so consistently wrong.

The campaign for the referendum went on for literally years ( with the unofficial lead up to the actual vote ), there was just vast amounts of information out there and the Remain campaign used every trick in the book to inform the voters of the possible perils of voting Leave, and yet in the biggest ever vote in the UK ( there had been so much of a build up, who wouldn't have known there was vote ) the voters still voted out. Now you can argue all you like that the Leave campaign also used every trick in the book, but on balance both sides probably were as bad as each other.

As to why, that can't be really summed up here as there were literally 1000's of individual reasons, that was probably down to information overload in some ways, but through the prolonged campaign and just the sheer bulk of media and TV time, everybody had made up their mind in one or other way. The number of people who you spoke to at the time, even those who you would have considered least political, had a view for or against. That huge media focus and the huge information that was available meant simply that every man and his dog went and voted because they had made up their minds and wanted to vote.

Now as to Leo's 5 point plan to understand a Brexiteer, sorry Leo, if you could just for 5 minutes extract yourself from your computer world and take a walk outside and meet people outside of your politicized circles, you may find there's a 1005 reasons why people voted out. 

 

That appears to be complete nonsense. It certainly bears no relation to my experience of the events

In the years and months running up to the referendum I talked to only one person who wanted to vote leave. My family, friends and colleagues (I was working at RBS at the time, so there were quite a few of them) all thought it was a bad idea.  Even the independence supporters I know were for remaining and continuing to seek indyref2 rather than have to suffer the wrench of Leaving in pursuit of their goal. 

... and having just come through indyref1 we had a pretty good idea of what a referendum should look like and the brexit poll was a caricature of a balanced, informed vote.

 Waynemarlow, you appear to be either trolling or completely delusional. If that's not the case, I struggle to see any grounds for what you write. 

 I can't help feeling that I've been conned into replying by a wind up merchant.. if so, you got me fair and square!!

Cheers,

               W.

 

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 Agree or disagree with him, Wayne’s views are fairly typical - the referendum result would suggest more so than Leo, Jack, Dog or Warburtons.  Hardly trolling then.

However, to have only met one declared leave voter prior to the election suggests either that people felt intimidated (see the name calling on here for how that might happen), or you live a very narrow life, or you yourself are trolling. I do not think it is the latter .

But, you are all still arguing the wrong question. The pros and cons of leaving were thoroughly debated before the referendum and before the election.  All the reasons being put forward now for staying were put forward then, but the majority were not convinced and had counter arguments for leaving.

Three years on the debate here is like a stuck record.  I get it if you don’t like the decision, but the decision to set sail has been made. Get onboard and pick the destination - staying in the harbour isn’t an option, but tieing up on the outside of the wall is, or somewhere more exotic if you prefer.  Enjoy the ride!

I still don’t think a good explanation has been given for why large numbers of remain voters in ‘75 switched to leave in ‘16.  Seems to be conveniently ignored. I don’t think mass dementia cuts it. 

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17 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

 I get it if you don’t like the decision, but the decision to set sail has been made. Get onboard and pick the destination - staying in the harbour isn’t an option

That's so 2017. In the last few months it's become quite clear that no definitive decision has yet been made.

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

Three years on the debate here is like a stuck record.  I get it if you don’t like the decision, but the decision to set sail has been made. Get onboard and pick the destination - staying in the harbour isn’t an option, but tieing up on the outside of the wall is, or somewhere more exotic if you prefer.  Enjoy the ride!

 

And that's what the naysayers such as Jack and Leo fail to understand and probably never will, not the voting out, just the fact that our so called ruling class still continue to see no reason not to continue to think that they know better. Lets flash up the diagrams and the pretty pictures, lets use future computer models ( so far to date which have been in the GIGO class ) and lets frighten the people. Lets halt this " Catastrophe " now.

That failure to admit defeat will have a far greater impact on the countries wealth than any clean Brexit ever would have, not all financial but socially and more importantly for the ruling elite, seeing the total destruction of their previous hold on power, the governing parties such as the Labour and the Conservatives. That is going to mean a huge lot of pain for everyone, that clean exit which probably would have meant a 5 year readjustment, now means decades of pain.

Such is the incompetence of the likes of Jacko and Leo and there politicized brethren, they don't even have the first "scooby" of what is taking place.   

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Oh Wayne is trolling, there is nothing to disagree with him, as he does not say anything concrete, toss in some lies with some thin truths, insults people.
He does it low key to not make it to obvious.

Difference between 75 and 16, ask Wayne, you see him as a credible source. Conveniently ignored, deep state tin foil hat going on.

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19 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

 Agree or disagree with him, Wayne’s views are fairly typical - the referendum result would suggest more so than Leo, Jack, Dog or Warburtons.  Hardly trolling then.

However, to have only met one declared leave voter prior to the election suggests either that people felt intimidated (see the name calling on here for how that might happen), or you live a very narrow life, or you yourself are trolling. I do not think it is the latter .

But, you are all still arguing the wrong question. The pros and cons of leaving were thoroughly debated before the referendum and before the election.  All the reasons being put forward now for staying were put forward then, but the majority were not convinced and had counter arguments for leaving.

Three years on the debate here is like a stuck record.  I get it if you don’t like the decision, but the decision to set sail has been made. Get onboard and pick the destination - staying in the harbour isn’t an option, but tieing up on the outside of the wall is, or somewhere more exotic if you prefer.  Enjoy the ride!

I still don’t think a good explanation has been given for why large numbers of remain voters in ‘75 switched to leave in ‘16.  Seems to be conveniently ignored. I don’t think mass dementia cuts it. 

Typical of whom? I've spoke to a fair number of people over that last few years and very, very few of them are in favour of leaving.

 Intimidated? No, I repeat, we'd just come through Indyref1... people were pretty comfortable talking about the issue. The main concern was the lack of real information about what brexit would entail. We'd just had a stack of information (probably not enough but a pretty good stab) pushed through our letterboxes and discussed at length in the media. Brexit was different: appeals to emotion, outright lies, name-calling; little factual advice to the voter.

Sosoomii, you are doing this now: You state above "The pros and cons of leaving were thoroughly debated before the referendum...", as if it's indisputable truth... but it's not Truth. At the very least it's debatable, close to being an outright lie. Yet you portray it as truth in the expectation that you won't be called out on it and that it will subtly reinforce the narrative that a majority voted for brexit, so it's the "democratic will of the people". Frankly, that's misleading bollocks.

 In my view, the overriding issue was complacency on the Remain side. It was so obvious to many (most?) that Leaving was a bad idea that Remain didn't make a decent case... by the time they woke up to the lies and propaganda that Leave were using, it was too late: the whole "project fear" pitch and the "we've had enough of experts" killed the debate, there was no informed decision possible.

 The overriding emotion on the Morning After was incredulity.

I'm still waiting to hear why Leaving is a Good Idea. We lose a lot... what do we gain? In what way will Britain be better for leaving the EU? More importantly, in what way will the EU be better for Britain leaving?  It's essentially the same question that needed to be asked during the Scottish Independence referendum, how does Scotland leaving benefit the UK?    If there's no good answer to those questions, then the status quo should prevail...

Cheers,

               W. 

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34 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

That's so 2017. In the last few months it's become quite clear that no definitive decision has yet been made.

No, there has been a definitive decision to leave - confirmed by referendum, general election, Act of Parliament and government will.

There is no agreement on the destination, but that is not the same thing.

Too many who didn’t want to leave have thrown their toys out the pram and are refusing to engage in the next stage - picking a destination. Instead they dig their heels in and scream “I don’t want to go anywhere!”.

If there was to be a second referendum (please no!) then the two choices should be May’s deal or No deal.  No other deal has EU agreement and remain has been rejected by the UK. 

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There was that decision but it's now evident Government is having difficulties implementing is it that may be terminal. So there isn't now any "definite decision" at all.

I don't think this is controversial, it's a clear reading of the events of the last few months. Plenty who have or do support Brexit are saying exactly the same. Nobody has a fucking clue what the end point of this process will be and anyone who claims to is delusional.

There isn't a snowball in hell's chance of Parliament passing a referendum with the questions you suggest. You are just indulging in wish-fulfilment there.

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17 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

No, there has been a definitive decision to leave - confirmed by referendum, general election, Act of Parliament and government will.

There is no agreement on the destination, but that is not the same thing.

Too many who didn’t want to leave have thrown their toys out the pram and are refusing to engage in the next stage - picking a destination. Instead they dig their heels in and scream “I don’t want to go anywhere!”.

If there was to be a second referendum (please no!) then the two choices should be May’s deal or No deal.  No other deal has EU agreement and remain has been rejected by the UK. 

I disagree strongly.  29 million people did not vote to leave. A silent majority believed the status quo would prevail. The referendum was fundamentally flawed on many levels and did not meet the basic requirements needed to be conclusive- it was not set up to do so because the fools who agreed to it did not think they had to.

 It's very likely that a majority do not want to go anywhere and to deny them the opportunity to have their say is a deliberate political gambit by an opportunistic minority that can't believe their luck.  Do you really believe that Brexit is the settled will of the British people?

 A second referendum is the only way that the UK can avoid years of bitter, festering resentment and Remain MUST be on the ballot for it to be valid.

  If a second referendum results in Leave then there is a mandate. The UK will leave and, in my view, will then break up. Scotland and NI will seek to rejoin the EU, and I can't see the EU denying them. If that's what England wants then it can vote for it and should not be denied.

I very much hope that that does not come to pass.

Cheers,

              W.

Edited by WGWarburton
fools, not idiots.
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59 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

 Agree or disagree with him, Wayne’s views are fairly typical - the referendum result would suggest more so than Leo, Jack, Dog or Warburtons.  Hardly trolling then.

However, to have only met one declared leave voter prior to the election suggests either that people felt intimidated (see the name calling on here for how that might happen), or you live a very narrow life, or you yourself are trolling. I do not think it is the latter .

But, you are all still arguing the wrong question. The pros and cons of leaving were thoroughly debated before the referendum and before the election.  All the reasons being put forward now for staying were put forward then, but the majority were not convinced and had counter arguments for leaving.

Three years on the debate here is like a stuck record.  I get it if you don’t like the decision, but the decision to set sail has been made. Get onboard and pick the destination - staying in the harbour isn’t an option, but tieing up on the outside of the wall is, or somewhere more exotic if you prefer.  Enjoy the ride!

I still don’t think a good explanation has been given for why large numbers of remain voters in ‘75 switched to leave in ‘16.  Seems to be conveniently ignored. I don’t think mass dementia cuts it. 

Way back in this post there is a video of one of the leaders of the Leave EU explaining exactly how they crafted a message that reinforced existing prejudices established over a long period, including a sense of grievance that their prejudices are so roundly, unequivocally and loudly been rejected over the last 20 years.

There is no logic to it or even complexity, it's purely about reinforced belief and exploiting the need for belonging. The politics of football hooliganism really.

My most significant leave voting friends where very tuned into the messaging coming from these campaigns, and still are. They believe they are part of a movement,  believe they will, for once, win and that their views are the true majority views of the British people (the campaign is careful to create personal labels for any counter-argument as "other", from Muslims to Remoaners). Now that JRM and the ERG logic has been completely dismantled the argument they put forward to none believers is like Wayne here, aimed at refuting individual remain arguments on a one by one basis. No concern for facts, no concern even for consistency. One minute black, the other white. The problem they have communicating their views to the remain minded is that they are based on a completely different value system. One that "liberal thinkers" reject out of hand. Just as "liberal thinkers" have rejected their value system.

At a macro level the map above is telling. It's to simple to say that white racism formed the emotive backdrop to 2016, although it clearly did. You also have to ask why the large immigrant population in these areas voted leave. The answer was quite quick in coming from leaders in those communities: they don't come from European countries and identify more with "mother England" than they do with the EU.

Of corse, these are not the only answers among 1,000s but they are significant and can not be dismissed out of guilt.

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Agree or disagree with him, Wayne’s views are fairly typical - the referendum result would suggest more so than Leo, Jack, Dog or Warburtons.  Hardly trolling then.

SoSo Wayne may be a typical Leaver but does that indicate he is right? Typical maybe but when someone refuses to both cite his opinion using valid sources in full and when challenged with such evidence suddenly goes silent (even with bumped replies) they are either not very bright and or trolling. Crikey Wayne even played the "I live here card" saying I had "no skin in the game". When Wayne was challenged on the basis "my skin" was equal or even greater than his and I would toss him for what he could put up, guess what? Not a bloody peep as his MO.

2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

But, you are all still arguing the wrong question. The pros and cons of leaving were thoroughly debated before the referendum and before the election.  All the reasons being put forward now for staying were put forward then, but the majority were not convinced and had counter arguments for leaving.

SoSo that is utter nonsense with enough evidence posted up thread to sink a ship. Just one as an example. Is May releasing to Ministers at in July 2018 at Chequers for the first time, two years after the Referendum and one year after the Election, where nearly to a man they suddenly all went ape shit a sign of proper debate? As for Remain being debated in Parliament post the Election nearly two years ago it has been virtually non existent on the basis both major parties have had a pro Brexit manifesto now 2 years old. The only limited debate in Westminster concerning Remain has been generated by minority parties where two of the largest minorities represent 2 of the 4 countries that voted Remain, but where one, Sinn Fein are not even  represented in Westminster. Yet Nth Ireland is the major handbrake causing this Brexit fuckup and everyone forgot about it?

Your opinions are now just like Wayne's devoid of backup or very selective and so you wonder why it is treated as such by many posters here who do their homework.

2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I still don’t think a good explanation has been given for why large numbers of remain voters in ‘75 switched to leave in ‘16.  Seems to be conveniently ignored. I don’t think mass dementia cuts it. 

I do think the onus is on you to prove you own assertion up first don't you? Simply selectively relying on a demographic of 45 years between votes being some of the same people maybe changed their mind because they got wiser with age or dementia hit. Give me strength.

I'm not going to do your homework for you but how about you start with "comparative snapshots" of the economy at the time, the change in the economy and industries that fueled it, particularly a service oriented economy over manufacturing, population growth and demographic changes including that from migration etc. After doing that then substantiate your opinion. My guess is you didn't do the homework as it would show an answer not to your liking with your simplistic use of statistics.

SoSo my suggestion is raise your game where you have already ventured into insulting those with a differing opinion who do the homework and so making you just like Wayne. Otherwise join Wayne as being treated here as dumb fuck and or a troll and whose opinions now are irrelevant, other than to have some fun with.

SoSo your choice...keep sinking or swim.

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15 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Typical of whom? I've spoke to a fair number of people over that last few years and very, very few of them are in favour of leaving. 52% of voters were in favour of leaving, you didn’t speak to enough...

 Intimidated? No, I repeat, we'd just come through Indyref1... people were pretty comfortable talking about the issue. The main concern was the lack of real information about what brexit would entail. We'd just had a stack of information (probably not enough but a pretty good stab) pushed through our letterboxes and discussed at length in the media. Brexit was different: appeals to emotion, outright lies, name-calling; little factual advice to the voter.

Sosoomii, you are doing this now: You state above "The pros and cons of leaving were thoroughly debated before the referendum...", as if it's indisputable truth... but it's not Truth.  Of course it’s Truth - there was months of debate.  Scores of mainstream politicians gave speeches on why remain was a good idea. At the very least it's debatable, close to being an outright lie.That is absurd. Yet you portray it as truth in the expectation that you won't be called out on it and that it will subtly reinforce the narrative that a majority voted for brexit The majority of votes were for Brexit, no twisted narrative needed!, so it's the "democratic will of the people" Yes, in a democratic vote more voted to leave than remain.  That’s the way it works...Frankly, that's misleading bollocks. Nt as bollocks as your implication that the majority wanted to remain!

 In my view, the overriding issue was complacency on the Remain side. It was so obvious to many (most?evidently not) that Leaving was a bad idea that Remain didn't make a decent case... by the time they woke up to the lies and propaganda that Leave were using, it was too late: the whole "project fear" pitch and the "we've had enough of experts" killed the debate, there was no informed decision possible.

 The overriding emotion on the Morning After was incredulity.In your circle

I'm still waiting to hear why Leaving is a Good Idea. Good Lord. You may not agree with all the arguments, but they have been voiced to death.  We lose a lot... what do we gain? In what way will Britain be better for leaving the EU? More importantly, in what way will the EU be better for Britain leaving?  It's essentially the same question that needed to be asked during the Scottish Independence referendum, how does Scotland leaving benefit the UK?    If there's no good answer to those questions, then the status quo should prevail...

Cheers,

               W. 

Say, what now? Surely you are trolling. 

Are you claiming your speaking to “a fair number” is more indicative than the referendum?

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@jack_sparrow Wayne is arguing with you. He's not engaging with an argument. That's why he's happy to argue one thing one moment and the opposite the next. He doesn't believe any of it, nore is it the basis for his leave views.

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21 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

There isn't a snowball in hell's chance of Parliament passing a referendum with the questions you suggest. You are just indulging in wish-fulfilment there.

No, that really, really, really isn’t my wish.  But hopefully it might remove your blinkers and make you realise that putting remain on truly is your wish-fulfilment. 

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

No, that really, really, really isn’t my wish.  But hopefully it might remove your blinkers and make you realise that putting remain on truly is your wish-fulfilment. 

What chance of them taking on the risk of a public vote again?

If they do it'll be because they want to wash their hands of the final decision, particularly if that is to remain.

The backers of a second referendum and the questions to be posed will just be based on who has the least to loose. Once minute that was the leave campaign. The next remain. Then recently back to leave again.

What's absolutely crystal clear and obvious is that neither "side" (if there is a remain side) has any intention of letting a single vote decide the issue.

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6 hours ago, hoppy said:

The EU has the UK by the balls. The UK totally missed any opportunity to negotiate with the EU from any position of strength because the Brexit side had no plan or vision. The UK is the worlds laughing stock. Once outside of the EU, no one in the EU will be in any rush to make anything easy for the UK. The EU will make it difficult to rejoin any international trade organisations. Eventually the UK will join the trade organisations, sign trade deals, even with the EU and even get a strong economy, but this will be at a massive cost and a generation of hardships.

Now that far right parties within EU countries have had a reality shock and have dropped their EUxit plans and now want to reform the EU from within. If the UK stays it will be an opportunity for the UK to help with those reforms.

The people who are pushing the Brexit barrel are not going to be hurt by the post Brexit economic chaos,  but the average Brit who they have hoodwinked will be fucked.

  

The average brit is already fucked. 15 years of minimum wage and lowering of societal norms have seen to that. Go and do the maths on a family of four with 1 working full time and 1 part time to provide some care for their kids and see what you have at the end of the month as free income. And we wonder why they are willing to roll the dice with Brexit.    

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53 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

No, there has been a definitive decision to leave - confirmed by referendum, general election, Act of Parliament and government will.

There is no agreement on the destination, but that is not the same thing.

Too many who didn’t want to leave have thrown their toys out the pram and are refusing to engage in the next stage - picking a destination. Instead they dig their heels in and scream “I don’t want to go anywhere!”.

If there was to be a second referendum (please no!) then the two choices should be May’s deal or No deal.  No other deal has EU agreement and remain has been rejected by the UK. 

Blame leavers that the leaving isn't happening. It shouldn't be hard as leavers won? Or is it that some part of majority wanted to leave east and another west and remainers lost. Now that the destination is to be decided, you should not put it on remainers to decide where to go.

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32 minutes ago, rgeek said:

@jack_sparrow Wayne is arguing with you. He's not engaging with an argument. That's why he's happy to argue one thing one moment and the opposite the next. He doesn't believe any of it, nore is it the basis for his leave views.

Yep Troll..that is why I no longer reply to Wayne's insults and Leo smarter than me didn't even bother when Wayne flew in from in from nowhere as Trolls do. SoSo going down the same burrow it seems. He does have time to stop though.

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1975 results compared with 2016 .  Roughly 65% of “young voters” voted to remain then.  That same cohort would now be the “old voters” that voted in the approximate the same proportion to leave.  

I find it hard to interpret that in any other way than many changed their mind.  That might indicate that EU membership did not live up to their expectations, or perhaps there is some other explanation? 

 

54872CDD-A3D1-471B-9212-C88A55420E29.jpeg

F8287CB3-38A2-469F-B8BF-1DE7A8027D83.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Blame leavers that the leaving isn't happening. It shouldn't be hard as leavers won? Or is it that some part of majority wanted to leave east and another west and remainers lost. Now that the destination is to be decided, you should not put it on remainers to decide where to go.

Careful with that, if only leave voting MPs got a say on the destination we’d be out on no deal by now!

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35 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Say, what now? Surely you are trolling. 

Are you claiming your speaking to “a fair number” is more indicative than the referendum?

No, you are missing the point. Perhaps you are right and I live in a bubble.

  You seem to think that Leaving is a good idea. I don't understand why you would think that. Would you mind explaining, please?

Thanks,

               W.

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5 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

No, you are missing the point. Perhaps you are right and I live in a bubble.

  You seem to think that Leaving is a good idea. I don't understand why you would think that. Would you mind explaining, please?

Thanks,

               W.

No, I have explained I was undecided up to the point of voting because I think it’ll make little difference in the end.

If we can remember back to a time before the referendum divided the nation, I think it fair to say that most felt that the EU (and our role in it) was not perfect.  Of the 48% that voted to remain, I am sure many would be critical of the EU. Therefore had we voted to remain I strongly believe we would now be having difficult negotiations trying to opt out of, say, immigration policy or supporting an EU army. Neither of which, I must stress, I necessarily agree with but the majority seem to.

The upshot being I suspect (or did at the time, opinions seem to have polarised somewhat since then) that most want roughly the same relationship with the EU and it was only the route there that opinions differed on.

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37 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Careful with that, if only leave voting MPs got a say on the destination we’d be out on no deal by now!

I thought majority voted leave? Or how else the A50 got triggered? Surely there was destination in their mind when it happened. Trigger the A50, decide the destination, do the deals or leave without. Don't blame remainers if that is impossible when part wants east and part wants west.

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44 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Careful with that, if only leave voting MPs got a say on the destination we’d be out on no deal by now!

That's laughable

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2 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

I'm still waiting to hear why Leaving is a Good Idea. We lose a lot... what do we gain? In what way will Britain be better for leaving the EU? More importantly, in what way will the EU be better for Britain leaving?  It's essentially the same question that needed to be asked during the Scottish Independence referendum, how does Scotland leaving benefit the UK?    If there's no good answer to those questions, then the status quo should prevail...

Until Wayne answers the question, rather than drivelling. I read his posts to avoid any chance of "not understanding the other side", but responding is futile. Hats off to the patience of Jack and LeoV, but time wasted.

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4 minutes ago, rgeek said:

That's laughable

Yes, I quite agree.  Leaving the choice of destination only to those who wanted to leave would be laughable.  

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

1975 results compared with 2016 .  Roughly 65% of “young voters” voted to remain then.  That same cohort would now be the “old voters” that voted in the approximate the same proportion to leave.  

I find it hard to interpret that in any other way than many changed their mind.  That might indicate that EU membership did not live up to their expectations, or perhaps there is some other explanation? 

 

54872CDD-A3D1-471B-9212-C88A55420E29.jpeg

F8287CB3-38A2-469F-B8BF-1DE7A8027D83.jpeg

Wow SoSo graphs (BTW Wayne hates graphs) of your same selective demographic 1975/2016 message with nothing further to add despite being encouraged to do so. SoSo I give you a drowning man some hints and rope to save yourself and what do you do?? You just repeat the same shit.

3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I still don’t think a good explanation has been given for why large numbers of remain voters in ‘75 switched to leave in ‘16.  Seems to be conveniently ignored. I don’t think mass dementia cuts it. 

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

SoSo I do think the onus is on you to prove you own assertion up first don't you? Simply selectively relying on a demographic of 45 years between votes being some of the same people maybe changed their mind because they got wiser with age or dementia hit. Give me strength.

I'm not going to do your homework for you but how about you start with "comparative snapshots" of the economy at the time, the change in the economy and industries that fueled it, particularly a service oriented economy over manufacturing, population growth and demographic changes including that from migration etc. After doing that then substantiate your opinion. My guess is you didn't do the homework as it would show an answer not to your liking with your simplistic use of statistics.

SoSo my suggestion is raise your game where you have already ventured into insulting those with a differing opinion who do the homework and so making you just like Wayne. Otherwise join Wayne as being treated here as dumb fuck and or a troll and whose opinions now are irrelevant, other than to have some fun with.

SoSo your choice...keep sinking or swim.

Maybe I should have helped you with your homework by just just providing you with say  "comparative snapshots" (already posted upthread which you ignore) of only the economy at the times 1975/2016, but my guess you are not really interested in factual stuff like that which blows up your narrative.

433555910_linechartimage(1).png.a5004d5867cc1e85d15980f3f7bf1fa5.png

Anyway more rope I pay you out.

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

SoSo going down the same burrow it seems. He does have time to stop though

But fuck that you say, I don't need any rope and swimming on well here and so post this horseshit.

59 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Careful with that, if only leave voting MPs got a say on the destination we’d be out on no deal by now!

A majority of Westminster voted just recently a No Deal was off the table and a Bill passed to that effect. Do you have somewhere else where MP's vote like Rees Mogg's bathroom?

Sorry SoSo the game is up. You have just joined Wayne. You are both now certified LeaverChimneyHeads trolling this thread to fuck it up and make it a room like PA.

That said many here may still play with you for sport. Unfortunately that from time to time utilises memes like this that you won't like, but unfortunately comes with the paddock you chose to plough.

You "reap what you sow" son.

 

tenor.gif.a3a01ed3b347206648abe82f43dcab7d.gif

 

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23 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Yes, I quite agree.  Leaving the choice of destination only to those who wanted to leave would be laughable.  

I guess that's what they call Parliamentary democracy.

It does make me giggle when people accuse May of being a remainer. Which May is the wind blowing today??

Or that the responsibility for negotiating Brexit wasn't handed to the Brexiteers at least up to the point they showed themselves up as completely incompetent.

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21 minutes ago, rgeek said:

It does make me giggle when people accuse May of being a remainer.

Geek maybe she was just passing going shopping and joined in the festivities?

Dz2EaadXgAEWPhI.thumb.jpeg.69f2eb6dccf28d8e1ca3bf2f9983b1df.jpeg207002218_NeilCarmichaelTheresaMay.jpg.gallery.jpg.c012bf562d4d776379dcef8f147abb90.jpg

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3 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

And that's what the naysayers such as Jack and Leo fail to understand and probably never will, not the voting out, just the fact that our so called ruling class still continue to see no reason not to continue to think that they know better. Lets flash up the diagrams and the pretty pictures, lets use future computer models ( so far to date which have been in the GIGO class ) and lets frighten the people. Lets halt this " Catastrophe " now.

That failure to admit defeat will have a far greater impact on the countries wealth than any clean Brexit ever would have, not all financial but socially and more importantly for the ruling elite, seeing the total destruction of their previous hold on power, the governing parties such as the Labour and the Conservatives. That is going to mean a huge lot of pain for everyone, that clean exit which probably would have meant a 5 year readjustment, now means decades of pain.

Such is the incompetence of the likes of Jacko and Leo and there politicized brethren, they don't even have the first "scooby" of what is taking place.   

People who were pushing leave had to offer a credible plan.

Imagine a group of people  lobbies for a referendum to build nuclear stations on the moon that beams back to earth energy. They sell the thing saying that will be fantastic, there is lot of cheap uranium there and when we are finished we can send to space the waste. Assuming that people vote yes to their proposition as proponents of the idea they should come up with the practical solutions to make their vision happen.

David Davis who can't be accused of not being a Brexiter was in charge of negotiating Brexit and didn't come up with something that would suit both Britain and the EU. He just eventually ran away. So it isn't the establishment unable to admit failure, it is the Brexiters who have been unable to come up with a workable solution. Now they are blaming everybody for their failures. The EU is doing its job of defending its citizens and its business, Theresa May is going nowhere but you can't blame her, the ERG and the DUP (both leavers) are not giving her the support she needs to pass Brexit through parliament.

Parliament doesn't want no deal, but there are doing their job. No deal is an illusion, sooner or later the UK will have to negotiate stuff with the EU (to sell financial services there, let UK plane fly above the EU, let UK fishermen sell their fish etc...) and the EU has already said that such negotiations will only take place after a withdrawal agreement has been settled.

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5 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Campaigning the party ticket seems to be Mays strongest suit

Geek I think the poor women thought Darwin was wrong and she could save the Tory's from eating their own young. 

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52 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

What on earth are you on about? 

Well that settles that unanswered question as posed and your last get out SoSo. Dumb Fuck & Troll it is for you mate. You were given more rope than you deserved.

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17 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

People who were pushing leave had to offer a credible plan.

Imagine a group of people  lobbies for a referendum to build nuclear stations on the moon that beams back to earth energy. They sell the thing saying that will be fantastic, there is lot of cheap uranium there and when we are finished we can send to space the waste. Assuming that people vote yes to their proposition as proponents of the idea they should come up with the practical solutions to make their vision happen.

David Davis who can't be accused of not being a Brexiter was in charge of negotiating Brexit and didn't come up with something that would suit both Britain and the EU. He just eventually ran away. So it isn't the establishment unable to admit failure, it is the Brexiters who have been unable to come up with a workable solution. Now they are blaming everybody for their failures. The EU is doing its job of defending its citizens and its business, Theresa May is going nowhere but you can't blame her, the ERG and the DUP (both leavers) are not giving her the support she needs to pass Brexit through parliament.

Parliament doesn't want no deal, but there are doing their job. No deal is an illusion, sooner or later the UK will have to negotiate stuff with the EU (to sell financial services there, let UK plane fly above the EU, let UK fishermen sell their fish etc...) and the EU has already said that such negotiations will only take place after a withdrawal agreement has been settled.

 

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Jack, you really are an immature, frustrated, rude, troll of the highest order.  

I point out that the majority of people born before 1960 voted to remain in ‘75 but leave in ‘16.  I find this an interesting topic worthy of discussion and you have some sort of meltdown.  It is not encumbent on me to explain why, but it does suggest that EU membership hasn’t fully satisfied that generation.  If, instead of throwing a tantrum, you considered why that is and what changes could be made to woo that demographic then perhaps you could convince them to change their mind back again.  Calling them demenated is unlikely to help you.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

No, I have explained I was undecided up to the point of voting because I think it’ll make little difference in the end.

 

2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

But hopefully it might remove your blinkers and make you realise that putting remain on truly is your wish-fulfilment. 

SoSo you have explained and substantiated absolutely nothing and this SoSo gem of yours "anyway it doesn't make a difference anyway". WTF. That says it all.

BTW family photo before your head blew off SoSo leaving them with only your blinkers.

644153708_images(83).jpeg.21066fd22773b5c193f7dce2e7f6e14e.jpeg

 

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Dude, I have tried really hard to be civil to you, but you are a moron.  You come across as a frustrate junior manager who doesn’t understand why they are constantly overlooked for promotion.  

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Sosooomi is to encumbant to answer his own question, that is funny, Ignore, bye.

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36 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Jack, you really are an immature, frustrated, rude, troll of the highest order.  

 

18 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Dude, I have tried really hard to be civil to you, but you are a moron.  You come across as a frustrate junior manager who doesn’t understand why they are constantly overlooked for promotion.  

SoSo you civil my arse . You go back to your own posts, you started this and now you eat it you lying prick. Remember my 3 strikes rule?

So now I'm a Troll and Junior Manager according to you...go check my history on SA you lazy fucktard.

Anyway mate more to the point shouldn't you be more worried about your pending legal action against the doctors who sewed on your new head?

colorful-carnival-clown-13755764.thumb.jpg.6c08d3498280642f1ec870445e599be5.jpg

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@Laser1

Are you voting in the EU election ? Just wondering as it seems likely they are going to find place. Labour is just sitting back and let the Tories be defeated.
Talk is May is trying to push a vote through the HOC, but seems to be missing support, what is new... So it looks like no deal before 22 May.

Other talky is the positioning of Labour as a remain party and Tory as leave. As voters start to see them in this light will the parties react or not.

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38 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Jack, you really are an immature, frustrated, rude, troll of the highest order.  

I point out that the majority of people born before 1960 voted to remain in ‘75 but leave in ‘16.  I find this an interesting topic worthy of discussion and you have some sort of meltdown.  It is not encumbent on me to explain why, but it does suggest that EU membership hasn’t fully satisfied that generation.  If, instead of throwing a tantrum, you considered why that is and what changes could be made to woo that demographic then perhaps you could convince them to change their mind back again.  Calling them demenated is unlikely to help you.

Based on the above those that changed their minds are 62-63 years of age as minimum and will most likely be of, or very close to retirement age.  This is a generation that will have very little real world interaction with the changes to business or future emigration issues, how do feel about this generation leaving such a lasting mark on UK society? 

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7 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Sosooomi is to encumbant to answer his own question, that is funny, Ignore, bye.

You are ignoring me because I asked a question?  Hey ho.

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

Based on the above those that changed their minds are 62-63 years of age as minimum and will most likely be of, or very close to retirement age.  This is a generation that will have very little real world interaction with the changes to business or future emigration issues, how do feel about this generation leaving such a lasting mark on UK society? 

Thank you for an answer rather than a juvenile insult!  Interesting idea, but not sure I agree, after all the 2016 graph shows a leave majority for the over 45s, who surely have the most real world business leadership experience. I am fine with one person one vote, I don’t weight the opinion based on years left alive.

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Hi,

      Interesting piece from the BBC Scotland Business editor ("What if Brexit were revoked"):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-47891360

 Resonates with me, presumably because that's part of my little bubble... kinda gratifying to see someone else using the "settled will of the British people", line, though :-)

Cheers,

                W.

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7 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Thank you for an answer rather than a juvenile insult!  Interesting idea, but not sure I agree, after all the 2016 graph shows a leave majority for the over 45s, who surely have the most real world business leadership experience. I am fine with one person one vote, I don’t weight the opinion based on years left alive.

like most stats, it depends on how you sample the data.

vote1b.png

As you mentioned, some of the electorate have changed their mind since 1975, here's a look at recent changes.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

image.thumb.png.bde0a7362777465b9dc8efa8dd0279e9.png

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15 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Now as to Leo's 5 point plan to understand a Brexiteer, sorry Leo, if you could just for 5 minutes extract yourself from your computer world ..

 

1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

 Check all 18000 posts?  I have more interesting things to do in life than that!

We are now into the last straight of Troll Busting here. 

By the SA Troll Rule Book when they are fucked Trolls then say everyone with an opposing view lives on the internet in a cellar and never gets out sailing, just like these two fucktards SoSo and Wayne are now doing.

Trolls never actually say what they do (though Wayne said he was an Engineer not defined) or have done in the sailing world, the point of that troll retort they hide behind. On the other hand the sailing current lifestyle and life experiences of just say just LeoV and myself here are well documented on SA and transparent.

So Wayne and SoSo to back up your implied claims. Are you two rude fucktards prepared to toss double or nothing betting  both LeoV and myself live in a basement and never get out?

My guess your 4 grubby little hands, start to quiver, stay in your pockets and you say fuck all. Funny about that. Time you rude cunts both fucked off and stop fucking up this thread.

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Hahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha! I think I must be in wonderland. Everything you (rudely) accuse me of is exactly how I see you. 

I did not start anything.  I just posted some facts (actual facts, not with a view to backing one side or the other) and said I wasn’t in favour of a second referendum.  It is only because I have an opposing view (actually, just a neutral opinion rather than a one sided view) that you revert to keyboard aggression. I really don’t see what my job or sailing exploits have to do with the discussion.  If you want to live your life via SA you’re welcome, but I don’t.

Sometimes I think you believed what you write.  Then I realise no-one could be so stupid.  Anyhow, I’m out of here now.  I might just pop back in every now and then to wind you up by not agreeing with everything you say.  It’s quite good sport.

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20 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Hahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha! I think I must be in wonderland. Everything you (rudely) accuse me of is exactly how I see you. 

I did not start anything.  I just posted some facts (actual facts, not with a view to backing one side or the other) and said I wasn’t in favour of a second referendum.  It is only because I have an opposing view (actually, just a neutral opinion rather than a one sided view) that you revert to keyboard aggression. I really don’t see what my job or sailing exploits have to do with the discussion.  If you want to live your life via SA you’re welcome, but I don’t.

Sometimes I think you believed what you write.  Then I realise no-one could be so stupid.  Anyhow, I’m out of here now.  I might just pop back in every now and then to wind you up by not agreeing with everything you say.  It’s quite good sport.

That's the point, you have so far only posted your opinion and one or 2 independent links or graphs to back your position, Wayne is exactly the same.  Hence the somewhat negative response you are both receiving. 

 

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47 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Anyhow, I’m out of here now.  I might just pop back in every now and then to wind you up by not agreeing with everything you say.  It’s quite good sport.

Yep that's #2  for you SoSo saying you are out of here. Straight out of the SA Troll Handbook. You trolls are like vampires.

However all you have to do is flash a bit of sunlight holding a oak stake and you cunts fold and evaporate. Though you will be back at sundown guaranteed I'm sure. You lot can't help yourselves.

Now Wayne with SoSo gone and you are on on your own..how is that sphincter of yours holding up?

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

@Laser1

Are you voting in the EU election ? Just wondering as it seems likely they are going to find place. Labour is just sitting back and let the Tories be defeated.
Talk is May is trying to push a vote through the HOC, but seems to be missing support, what is new... So it looks like no deal before 22 May.

Other talky is the positioning of Labour as a remain party and Tory as leave. As voters start to see them in this light will the parties react or not.

Leo,  I apologize for the poor choice of words but this country is pretty fucked-up.  The fact that people are now very busy sticking their head in the sand during this 'interlude' hoping it will go away is not solving anything.  Regardless of their views Soso & Wayne are entitled to them as I have indicated earlier but when faced with any opposition resort to the typical brexiteer retaliation that I see on countless FB groups, which is a shame and strikes a sour note.

Re EU election I think that the fear is real that whatever way this turns out the UK will conduct guerrilla warfare from within on the EU no matter what 'gentlemen's agreements' will be struck to not do that.  The genie is out of the bottle and f8ck knows how they are going to get it back in.

Farage and his new band of mad men are lining up for another bite of the cherry.  I don't like May or what she stands for - nor Comrade Corbinista.  Libdems who stood on a remain ticket are non-existent, the local Mebyon Kernow party are a bunch of toss pots, I don't feel particularly green and although I love a wee dram I don't live there.

I have never been very politically engaged here so Raving Loony Party it is then.:lol:

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46 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I did not start anything.  I just posted some facts (actual facts, not with a view to backing one side or the other) and said I wasn’t in favour of a second referendum.  It is only because I have an opposing view (actually, just a neutral opinion rather than a one sided view) that you revert to keyboard aggression. I really don’t see what my job or sailing exploits have to do with the discussion.  If you want to live your life via SA you’re welcome, but I don’t.

You followed your facts with: "So, by my reckoning “the people”, Parliament and the government are all in favour of leaving.  Sounds like a democratic mandate to me."

If everyone is still in favour of leaving, why there is such a lack of leaving? I'd agree with you if you had said that all those were in favour of leaving, but vote after vote we seem to know more and more what they are against, not what they are for. And the lack of leaving makes me think that they are not for leaving, but for remaining...

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9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

And for balance...though there is a argument the weak £ and very low productivity make UK a good investment bet, particularly if you are betting on either Revoke or a soft Brexit the outcome.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1114715/brexit-economy-uk-business-destination-eu-withdrawal-imf

I posted this for a balanced view. However I have spent some time looking into this as it surprised me. Will post tomorrow as it seems it is not what it seems. Would have done today but diverted by trying to extract a credible argument from Wayne and SoSo as usual, but to no avail. Oxygen thiefs.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Sometimes I think you believed what you write.  Then I realise no-one could be so stupid.  Anyhow, I’m out of here now.  I might just pop back in every now and then t

I see. Out in Name Only. 

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50 minutes ago, LeoV said:

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-economic-impact-of-possible-brexit-scenarios/

Not a bad source, except for some. They have some good stuff.

Professor Jonathan Portes

A quick read demonstrates he is a serious guy...   The problem is....  He is just that.... a guy.   It is too easy to avoid critically thinking through his analysis and making a thoughtful judgement.  

Quote

The views expressed in this analysis post are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the UK in a Changing Europe initiative.

You need a group that has a track record over time of offering up independent best practice analysis with a track record that validates the work. 

This sets the debate with a foundation of independent authority..... agree or disagree based on your values... but the analysis is grounded in fact and you have to think critically about the analysis. 

Dumbfounded to read up in the thread that the Negotiator tasked with cutting a deal says that there were no analysis documents and quit when he failed.   WTF.    What the hell were you guys doing for the years in the run up?

Sounds like... nobody thought this was remotely possible.... chose not to waste time analyzing and winged it.  

Everybody seems to agree that one side played politics and fear much better then the other.     A tried and true strategy over the eons.  who would have thought it work again?

Any idea what it has cost you already?   Any idea if there are any benefits to the two years of indecision.  When should I tune in for the next chapter.....

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7 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

Professor Jonathan Portes

A quick read demonstrates he is a serious guy...   The problem is....  He is just that.... a guy.   It is too easy to avoid critically thinking through his analysis and making a thoughtful judgement.  

You need a group that has a track record over time of offering up independent best practice analysis with a track record that validates the work. 

This sets the debate with a foundation of independent authority..... agree or disagree based on your values... but the analysis is grounded in fact and you have to think critically about the analysis. 

Dumbfounded to read up in the thread that the Negotiator tasked with cutting a deal says that there were no analysis documents and quit when he failed.   WTF.    What the hell were you guys doing for the years in the run up?

Sounds like... nobody thought this was remotely possible.... chose not to waste time analyzing and winged it.  

Everybody seems to agree that one side played politics and fear much better then the other.     A tried and true strategy over the eons.  who would have thought it work again?

Any idea what it has cost you already?   Any idea if there are any benefits to the two years of indecision.  When should I tune in for the next chapter.....

Quote

The cost to Britain is currently £40bn a year, or about £800m a week of lost income, he said. Since the referendum, the UK’s economic growth has slowed while the rest of the world has recorded one of its strongest periods for growth of the past decade.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/14/brexit-has-cost-uk-economy-at-least-80bn-since-vote-bank-of-england-rate-setter

I think Jack posted some other sources and figures in the last page or 3

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7 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

When should I tune in for the next chapter.....

Halloween.

I like a bit of Wire myself. Gender aside, does this remind us of any political figure?

 

OUR SWIMMER
Displaying an interest in forward propulsion
Our swimmer glides with no actual motion
The stroke he's using needs timing and skill
The effect is graceful, but the progress is nil

Neither backwards nor sideways, it's part of the thrill
The element he performs in is perfectly still
No problems with friction, it's easy for him
It is what he was born to, to swim and to swim

He turned head on tail, tail in head
He thinks that this cycle will get him ahead
Leaden-limbed, his state becomes alarming
Progress expected, not forthcoming
The effect is graceful, but the progress is nil
It is what he was born to, to swim and to swim

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3 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Luckily I’m not like you

I have always been unsure in life if I was lucky or not. Now I'm relieved either way.

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Sometimes in life we get a brilliant idea. We get it approved by the Admiral, or the board, or the locals, and put the plan in motion. After a while and many fuck ups and dead ends, we think, maybe this plan was not as brilliant as we thought it was. If it was a good plan, then it would be easy to execute. Maybe we should go back to the advisory group, and tell them we think the plan is not so great, and we need to reconsider. My past experiences in business, in life, in community planning, tells me this happens often. I would like more than a simple majority to execute any plan of significance. Two thirds or more, has been the norm in most clear thinking places. I said this many pages back. 

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20 minutes ago, Unkle Krusty said:

Sometimes in life we get a brilliant idea. We get it approved by the Admiral, or the board, or the locals, and put the plan in motion. After a while and many fuck ups and dead ends, we think, maybe this plan was not as brilliant as we thought it was. If it was a good plan, then it would be easy to execute. Maybe we should go back to the advisory group, and tell them we think the plan is not so great, and we need to reconsider. My past experiences in business, in life, in community planning, tells me this happens often. I would like more than a simple majority to execute any plan of significance. Two thirds or more, has been the norm in most clear thinking places. I said this many pages back. 

I have seen many leaders confronted with reality diverging from the core assumptions underlying the plan they sponsored / sold to some group.

I’ve seen very few with the wisdom and courage to go back to the group and say we need to reconsider. Those very few are the leaders I most respect, would most readily invest my money with.

One of the purposes of a board or oversight of some sort is to support the leader by providing that opportunity to revaluate the path forward without too harsh a judgement. That seems even rarer than a leader who can accurately question them self.

Its very hard to have the conviction and courage to drive forward brave / exiting plans and also the dispassion and wisdom to regularly question your path forward. The two combined contribute to real leadership.

Unfortunately May's only leadership attribute seems to be tenacity...the sort of tenacity that would have her forge straight on when she comes to a T-intersection.

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1 hour ago, mad said:

I think Jack posted some other sources and figures in the last page or 3

Mad you have dementia as I did it as a reply to you regarding your shock horror over £4 billion spent so far in hard dollars.

The press have have no idea correlating loss in GDP which is an opportunity cost and real dollar cost like that £4 billion. The only way to express an actual loss in GDP of around £600 million per week (some say more) since the Referendum in hard dollars is the loss in tax revenue. That sits at last week around £28 billion. Or if you want to make Boris's Brexit NHS Bus go up in a puff of smoke, already around 11 new Hospitals in the UK have already gone up in smoke.

That is not scare campaign shit, that is accounting reality. For every week this Brexit nonsense continues the UK is bleeding it's guts out. Think about that for those wanting short or long extensions to A.50 and the economic ramifications not spoken about.

Already sitting at around 85% public debt/GDP ratio not a lot of headroom for a Govt to spend to get out of a Recession where unlike say the US where it might have a higher ratio, it has unlike the UK GDP increases in the pipeline and ability to lower domestic interest rates to stimulate the economy.

Those controlling the fiscal levers in the UK know that today, the UK populace won't know untill maybe 2 years out having regard to that and the world economic forecasts. No Brexit or Brexit there is shit on the world economic horizon with some losers and winners courtesy of China's economy retracting/going hard on deal making. The UK and EU are in the losers column at this juncture. If UK out of EU that impact will be magnified.

That person in the UK whose responsibility is to ensure the UK doesn't get fucked is the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the government's chief financial minister. His name is David Lidington. 

Go Google his views on Brexit when looking for fiscal leadership when it is required. You will find a limp dick, if you can find a dick.

PS. No cites to this opinion piece as both numbers and flavour already cited up thread.

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mad you have dementia as I did it as a reply to you regarding your shock horror over £4 billion spent so far in hard dollars.

The press have have no idea correlating loss in GDP which is an opportunity cost and real dollar cost like that £4 billion. The only way to express an actual loss in GDP of around £600 million per week (some say more) since the Referendum in hard dollars is the loss in tax revenue. That sits at last week around £28 billion. Or if you want to make Boris's Brexit NHS Bus go up in a puff of smoke, already around 11 new Hospitals in the UK have already gone up in smoke.

That is not scare campaign shit, that is accounting reality. For every week this Brexit nonsense continues the UK is bleeding it's guts out. Already sitting at around 85% public debt/GDP ratio not a lot of headroom for a Govt to spend to get out of a Recession where unlike say the US where it might have a higher ratio, it has unlike the UK GDP increases in the pipeline and ability to lower domestic interest rates to stimulate the economy.

Those controlling the fiscal levers in the UK know that today, the UK populace won't know untill maybe 2 years out having regard to that and the world economic forecasts. No Brexit or Brexit there is shit on the world economic horizon. That person in the UK whose responsibility is to ensure the UK doesn't get fucked is the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the government's chief financial minister. His name is David Lidington. 

Go Google his views on Brexit when fiscal leadership is required. You will find a limp dick, if you can find a dick.

 

 

Not dementia or shock horror Jack, just a case of lethargy with the whole shit show. I was merely pointing out that you had answered that point at some recent time in the discussion, I’m just too lazy to scroll back through and link to the exact post. 

The current shit show will muddle  along out of the media eye for a couple of months until the next vote, or “oh fuck, we need to do something” moment appears as the clock runs down. 

The only difference that happen is the turn out for MEPs vote may well hit an all time high. 

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^^ Laser very good.. however I have around 8 kg of fucks still to give and not yet expended. I can only suppose I must have been born with more fucks in the locker than most? It is a burden at times.

 

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Donald Tusk's advice:

Theresa May's response:

_106458735_mediaitem106458734.jpg

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43 minutes ago, mad said:

Not dementia or shock horror Jack, just a case of lethargy with the whole shit show. I was merely pointing out... 

A good wingman knows when he just provided an opening for his retarded mate, an answer was not required :-)

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

We are now into the last straight of Troll Busting here. 

By the SA Troll Rule Book when they are fucked Trolls then say everyone with an opposing view lives on the internet in a cellar and never gets out sailing, just like these two fucktards SoSo and Wayne are now doing.

Trolls never actually say what they do (though Wayne said he was an Engineer not defined) or have done in the sailing world, the point of that troll retort they hide behind. On the other hand the sailing current lifestyle and life experiences of just say just LeoV and myself here are well documented on SA and transparent.

So Wayne and SoSo to back up your implied claims. Are you two rude fucktards prepared to toss double or nothing betting  both LeoV and myself live in a basement and never get out?

My guess your 4 grubby little hands, start to quiver, stay in your pockets and you say fuck all. Funny about that. Time you rude cunts both fucked off and stop fucking up this thread.

@jack_sparrow I took you up on reading some of your other contributions on SA. Fuck me, you’re boring.  Yeah, you’re a real popular guy!  Oh, no.  I meant a hypocritical little shit.  You have more in common with Mrs May than you realise ;)

 

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SoSo so you stopped chewing on that bag of dicks and looked up my contributions to SA. The dicks would have been very greatfull for that break, you were not worried they would escape?

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