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We are fucked, Coal Industry Sponsors Climate talks

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1 hour ago, random said:

So that the same thing will happen to that right?  So that the BIG BLACK ENERGY had is up the arse of every government on the planet.  "Do what we say or we cut-off the supply of cash for your next election and give that to your enemies"  Worse, they do what he NRA made normal. just tell them that they will be targeted and campaigned against.

That's the guts of this problem.  Greed and corruption, compromised governments and liars like those who post here.  Like you.

So you are saying the only plan has been the Paris circle jerk? Hope you have a plan B hiding somewhere. So China gets told what to do by Big Oil. Man you have been sniffing to much petrol. All the other undeveloped countries have been on the take as well. Maybe they just try and survive and improve things. 

As for calling me a liar, please point out my lies. You are just a delusional little man who sees conspiracies around each corner. Unable to differentiate between your imagined world and the real one you live in. 

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So you are saying the only plan has been the Paris circle jerk?

No, but you said there were no viable plans.  There are.

The brains trust of the planet came together and made a plan.  It's viable, if it was allowed to work it would work, but BIG BLACK ENERGY is stopping it from happening.  They control political donations, both legal and illegal.  In Australia the result is that the government has no energy plan to meet the Paris agreement targets because they want BIG BLACK ENERGY money to help them win the next election.

What about that do you not get?

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2 hours ago, random said:

The brains trust of the planet came together and made a plan. 

Oh, that's why I didn't see you there.
 

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2 hours ago, random said:

No, but you said there were no viable plans.  There are.

The brains trust of the planet came together and made a plan.  It's viable, if it was allowed to work it would work, but BIG BLACK ENERGY is stopping it from happening.  They control political donations, both legal and illegal.  In Australia the result is that the government has no energy plan to meet the Paris agreement targets because they want BIG BLACK ENERGY money to help them win the next election.

What about that do you not get?

The only plan you have mentioned so far was the Paris Agreement and it was a photo op for a bit of feel good politics. No set levels, no enforcement of any kind. Just a bunch of, you words, the smartest people promising the tv cameras all will be right. It was never going to work and has failed miserably. Not because of Big Oil but because it was a lemon worthy of any used car salesman. So what other cunning plans do you have. I hope, for the sake of the world, this is not it. Eggs all in one accord, not a good idea.

You also seem to be under the misapprehension that only western developed countries are involved in this conspiracy and that they are all being controlled by Big Oil. What about China, one of the biggest emitters, are they run by Big Oil? Emperor Xi will be mighty disappointed if they are. Or India. How about all the African nations slowly raising their standard of living by using fossil fuel. Or do you think they are only doing it because of Big Oil and would prefer to stay impoverished. 

Might be time for you to cut some eye holes in the tinfoil so you can see around you. 

Still waiting for a list of all the lies you claim I make. Sleep well Randy.

 

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Just now, Gissie said:

Still waiting for a list of all the lies you claim I make.

I gave you one.  How many are required to be a fully qualified liar?

I thought one big one was enough.  But then you continued above.  You have demonstrated that not only do you lie, but you are naive enough to think that BIG BLACK ENERGY is not in control.

Get a smaller spade, that will slow down the creation of the hole you are continuing to dig for yourself.

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19 minutes ago, random said:

I gave you one.  How many are required to be a fully qualified liar?

I thought one big one was enough.  But then you continued above.  You have demonstrated that not only do you lie, but you are naive enough to think that BIG BLACK ENERGY is not in control.

Get a smaller spade, that will slow down the creation of the hole you are continuing to dig for yourself.

Must have missed it, tried going back but could find no reverence to my lie. Would appreciate it if you could quickly confirm what it was. 

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10 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

This is like the aftermath of on of those Christmas family gatherings one hears about:rolleyes:

You mean with the drunk uncle that hits on his nephew ‘s wife of the drunk grandfather the gets his cock out for a breath of fresh and playtime. 

Chritmas, like weddings can bring out the best in people. 

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Just now, Gissie said:

You mean with the drunk uncle that hits on his nephew ‘s wife of the drunk grandfather the gets his cock out for a breath of fresh and playtime. 

Chritmas, like weddings can bring out the best in people. 

something like that :)

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

something like that :)

Not looking forward to the day my kids have to explain to me the next day I was the once the family will talk about in hushed tones for generations. 

Still famous beats not famous, who cares about the reason. 

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The oil companies aren't in charge.  The oil companies are minions of the central governments.  They do what they're told and they're paid to keep pumping.  It's a red herring to put this on them.

The enemy is 'us'.  We like ease and convenience.  We like electricity that comes on when we want and clean water and toilets that flush.  We like big open spaces and flow through designs.  The average American uses 250 kWh per day of energy, the average European 125 or so.  Both groups add an additional 40-50 kWh per day of 'imported stuff' worth of goods and services.  Below is one of those famous scatter plots (this ones a bit dated but the point is relevant).  Wealth and geography create energy demand which will be met.  Why do the Canadians use so much energy?  Are they evil?  Are they controlled by big oil?  No - they have money and live in a cold country.

There are real plans that exist and they're chugging along.  They're not flashy or exciting.  They're things like making more efficient and durable building materials, better efficiency electric transformers and furnaces,  There are programs in energy storage and ** gasp **, even nuclear technology.

The big, fundamental problem is that the environmental sustainability in the west is about conservation and not expansion.  How do you create wealth from using less of something?   The answer is, you don't.  That's not how growth models - i.e., capitalism - works.  This is an eat right and exercise problem.  Is it solvable?  Sort of..  What's going to happen over the next 20-30 years in the developed world is that the capitalized assets are going to be retired and replaced with better ones.  That's why the energy growth rate has stalled despite continued consumer demand - we're making it up in efficiency.  The problem is that replacement doesn't really drop the overall emissions very quickly and it doesn't get at the fundamental problem - an unsustainable lifestyle.  Our houses are too big, too spread out, we eat too much meat, build with too much concrete, etc.   The silver lining, such as it is, is that demographics appear to be largely solving the problem.  We've decided our lifestyles are SOOO much fun, that we don't actually want to share with pesky offspring.  So as we die and things get destroyed/decay, we just won't replace them and the rate of emissions will eventually go down.  The western lifestyle appears to be ultimately self-correcting.  Who'da thunk.

The developing world is another issue altogether.  We've already seen what happens when a single country of a billion people compressed the industrial revolution time scale by 500%.  We're about to witness what happens when dozens of countries and FOUR billion people try and do the same.  

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Some central governments are influenced by big corporations, if not corruption, certainly donations for election campaigns:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-18/scott-morrison-holds-a-lump-of-coal-in-parliament/10627656

That some jockeys compete within the race is undeniable.  But does the horse or jockey have any real control over the track?  Or the start time?  Or length of the race?  Or the prize money?  I don't empower them to that degree.

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8 hours ago, cmilliken said:

The oil companies aren't in charge.  The oil companies are minions of the central governments.  They do what they're told and they're paid to keep pumping.  It's a red herring to put this on them.

The enemy is 'us'.  We like ease and convenience.  We like electricity that comes on when we want and clean water and toilets that flush.  We like big open spaces and flow through designs.  The average American uses 250 kWh per day of energy, the average European 125 or so.  Both groups add an additional 40-50 kWh per day of 'imported stuff' worth of goods and services.  Below is one of those famous scatter plots (this ones a bit dated but the point is relevant).  Wealth and geography create energy demand which will be met.  Why do the Canadians use so much energy?  Are they evil?  Are they controlled by big oil?  No - they have money and live in a cold country.

There are real plans that exist and they're chugging along.  They're not flashy or exciting.  They're things like making more efficient and durable building materials, better efficiency electric transformers and furnaces,  There are programs in energy storage and ** gasp **, even nuclear technology.

The big, fundamental problem is that the environmental sustainability in the west is about conservation and not expansion.  How do you create wealth from using less of something?   The answer is, you don't.  That's not how growth models - i.e., capitalism - works.  This is an eat right and exercise problem.  Is it solvable?  Sort of..  What's going to happen over the next 20-30 years in the developed world is that the capitalized assets are going to be retired and replaced with better ones.  That's why the energy growth rate has stalled despite continued consumer demand - we're making it up in efficiency.  The problem is that replacement doesn't really drop the overall emissions very quickly and it doesn't get at the fundamental problem - an unsustainable lifestyle.  Our houses are too big, too spread out, we eat too much meat, build with too much concrete, etc.   The silver lining, such as it is, is that demographics appear to be largely solving the problem.  We've decided our lifestyles are SOOO much fun, that we don't actually want to share with pesky offspring.  So as we die and things get destroyed/decay, we just won't replace them and the rate of emissions will eventually go down.  The western lifestyle appears to be ultimately self-correcting.  Who'da thunk.

The developing world is another issue altogether.  We've already seen what happens when a single country of a billion people compressed the industrial revolution time scale by 500%.  We're about to witness what happens when dozens of countries and FOUR billion people try and do the same.  

 

 

 

figure126.thumb.png.a159dd381312f9816d967978f14884be.png

Thanks, well put. So many in the West seem to think it is all about us. We can conserve, get more efficient etc. 

They seem to conveniently forget the billions that want to get to were we are and won’t be held back. Or the huge amounts of energy and resources that will be required for this to happen. This is the bogeyman they pretend not to see so they can sleep at night. But it is coming and soon. 

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21 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Thanks, well put. So many in the West seem to think it is all about us. We can conserve, get more efficient etc. 

They seem to conveniently forget the billions that want to get to were we are and won’t be held back. Or the huge amounts of energy and resources that will be required for this to happen. This is the bogeyman they pretend not to see so they can sleep at night. But it is coming and soon. 

My personal 'environmental Armageddon' moment is when the Indians, Nigerians, and the rest of central African suddenly decide they don't like being hot and want AC and start buying cheap window units by the 10's of millions.  The demand for electricity will be hard enough to satisfy - but what happens to all those units when they wear out or get sent to landfills and billions of liters of refrigerant - 1000x worse than CO2 - leak into the atmosphere.

 

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38 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Thanks, well put. So many in the West seem to think it is all about us. We can conserve, get more efficient etc. 

They seem to conveniently forget the billions that want to get to were we are and won’t be held back. Or the huge amounts of energy and resources that will be required for this to happen. This is the bogeyman they pretend not to see so they can sleep at night. But it is coming and soon. 

Do you think we can persuade the billions of others to do otherwise if we don’t set a strong, urgent leading example ourselves?

Your alternative solutions are?

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28 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Do you think we can persuade the billions of others to do otherwise if we don’t set a strong, urgent leading example ourselves?

Your alternative solutions are?

What sort of leading example are you talking about here. The only thing that could work would be reverting to their standard. So no cars, electricity, food security, internet, aircon, running water and on and on.  

Or do you mean we get more efficient, lower our co2 and explain that because we have sacrificed fuck all they can get to stay undeveloped. 

Neither option looks very good to me and certainly not to those lagging behind us. Get ready because if you think there is pressure in the system now, there is lots more shit on the horizon. 

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