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Shortforbob

Well here's a surprise- Ammon Bundy

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/08/ammon-bundy-spoke-kindly-about-migrant-caravan-backlash-has-him-rethinking-his-supporters/?utm_term=.fea381aea327

Bundy, one of the figureheads of the anti-government sentiment that crested with the rise of Donald Trump, made waves last week when he criticized the president for demonizing the migrant caravan at the southern border. The statements were striking for a figure so closely identified with the country’s libertarian and anti-government right-wing.

And on Friday, BuzzFeed News reported that Bundy was “quitting the militia movement” and powering down his social media accounts because of the backlash he received for his rebuke of Trump. The story drew a flurry of headlines, including, “Ammon Bundy Quits Militia Movement in Solidarity With Migrant Caravan.”

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11 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Bundy, one of the figureheads of the anti-government sentiment that crested with the rise of Donald Trump, made waves last week when he criticized the president for demonizing the migrant caravan at the southern border. The statements were striking for a figure so closely identified with the country’s libertarian and anti-government right-wing.

 

Striking to people unfamiliar with traditional libertarian views on immigration, perhaps.

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51 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

The duopoly bipolar framework is so much easier to navigate.  Allowing for other narratives is bad for business.

Navigate this question, cmilliken, because Tom Ray flakes out on it, every time. Do you support The Standard Model of the Second Amendment? Do you support the Libertarian version of history presented by Joyce Lee Malcolm, as found within Heller?

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

Bundy, one of the figureheads of the anti-government sentiment that crested with the rise of Donald Trump, made waves last week when he criticized the president for demonizing the migrant caravan at the southern border.

 libertarian's are disloyal and not to be trusted.  

1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

Bundy was “quitting the militia movement” and powering down his social media accounts because of the backlash he received for his rebuke of Trump.

Really? I'm shocked.:lol:

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36 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Navigate this question, cmilliken, because Tom Ray flakes out on it, every time. Do you support The Standard Model of the Second Amendment? Do you support the Libertarian version of history presented by Joyce Lee Malcolm, as found within Heller?

I think I remember looking at this a few years ago in one of our dialogs but I'll go back and check.  I'm not sure it was the same topic.

If it's what I'm remembering, the fundamental underpinning upon which I disagreed was that the bill of rights was inherently designed as enabling instead of disabling.  In other words, do the citizens start with infinite rights and the constitution begrudgingly takes them away or do the rules exist so that we can all get along and avoid killing each other.  In the former view (and the most popular libertarian 'do no harm' interpretation), the bill of rights is essentially a list of carve outs worthy of renumeration.  It's 'for emphasis' and 'clarity' just to make sure no one gets any funny ideas.  Again, from memory, the argument by Patrick Charles, he essentially said that was basically true EXCEPT for the 2nd which, at its core, is designed to SUPPORT constitutional law which is why it was written in the rather tortured language that was adopted.  It's not really a renumeration of individual rights but rather a renumeration of the importance of the citizenry to support the government and it's well-being upon which we're all going to rely.  My problem with that interpretation is that  it's singular in  regards to the OTHER rights.  I don't think most people would argue the importance of a 'free press' as a foundational expression of our support for the government.  It's not impossible but that interpretation does seem incongruent.

I'll go back and re-read Malcolm and refresh myself on the Standard Model before I go any further :)  It's been a while.

 

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/08/ammon-bundy-spoke-kindly-about-migrant-caravan-backlash-has-him-rethinking-his-supporters/?utm_term=.fea381aea327

Bundy, one of the figureheads of the anti-government sentiment that crested with the rise of Donald Trump, made waves last week when he criticized the president for demonizing the migrant caravan at the southern border. The statements were striking for a figure so closely identified with the country’s libertarian and anti-government right-wing.

And on Friday, BuzzFeed News reported that Bundy was “quitting the militia movement” and powering down his social media accounts because of the backlash he received for his rebuke of Trump. The story drew a flurry of headlines, including, “Ammon Bundy Quits Militia Movement in Solidarity With Migrant Caravan.”

Well, here's a surprise: Jocal wants to talk about some other subject. Guess which one?

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3 hours ago, cmilliken said:

The duopoly bipolar framework is so much easier to navigate.  Allowing for other narratives is bad for business.

Or you could just call the Bundy's grifting bullshitters. I get there's always a place for thieves, criminals and charlatans in the LIbertarian movement though.

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2 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Navigate this question, cmilliken, because Tom Ray flakes out on it, every time. Do you support The Standard Model of the Second Amendment? Do you support the Libertarian version of history presented by Joyce Lee Malcolm, as found within Heller?

Fuck off and take your gunz shit somewhere else.  Assclown.

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3 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Navigate this question, cmilliken, because Tom Ray flakes out on it, every time. Do you support The Standard Model of the Second Amendment? Do you support the Libertarian version of history presented by Joyce Lee Malcolm, as found within Heller?

Joe give it a break. Can you keep your Heller strokeathon to gun threads only? 

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Fuck off and take your gunz shit somewhere else.  Assclown.

I would prefer a quality conversation, elsewhere. You may recall that Ammon Bundy was protected by the militia culture.

Who's the "assclown"?  The guns are not mine. The gun problem belongs to your elk.

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1 minute ago, chinabald said:

Joe give it a break. Can you keep your Heller strokeathon to gun threads only? 

No.  As evadent.

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Just now, chinabald said:

Joe give it a break. Can you keep your Heller strokeathon to gun threads only? 

Ammon Bundy's corrosive civics led straight to gun power over the decisions of the courts of law in his state.

Out of control.

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Just now, jocal505 said:

Ammon Bundy's corrosive civics led straight to gun power over the decisions of the courts of law in his state.

Out of control.

Except you took the opportunity to spotlight Tom’s answers to your previous questions. You questioned Toms beliefs.  Not Bundy’s.

Do you charge Tom rent for the space he occupies in your head? 

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8 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

awww the team gunnut fucksticks are having a go at joe again. 

See post 4, Jo decided to start this one. 

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2 minutes ago, mad said:

See post 4, Jo decided to start this one. 

I can't say I give a fuck who starts it anymore - they all want to play the same stupid shit over and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and 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34 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

I can't say I give a fuck who starts it anymore - they all want to play the same stupid shit over and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and 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Grow up you fucking child and post something of substance, rather than the lines in an after school detention. 

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11 minutes ago, mad said:

Grow up you fucking child and post something of substance, rather than the lines in an after school detention. 

You gunnuts are so fucking sensitive and so fucking full of yourselves. It's a political argument board on the internet with an ignore function.

 

But I see the butthurt dumbfuck living in PNG likes your post, so you've got that going for you.

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Sorry for starting a dupe thread. Didn't see this one. 

I now find Bundy compelling as hell.

His views on the grazing land and now his support of migrants, while appear to conflict, look pretty consistent with libertarianism. In that respect, it should not be a surprise. But given the.herd conditioning of right or left thinking in this country, he is seen as off some reservation everyone has assigned him to.

Everyone could learn something from this man.

I happened to find the story here:

https://www.google.com/amp/nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2018/12/ammon-bundy-quits-militia-movement-defends-migrant-caravan.html

The passage I found kinda fucked up was this (bolding is mine):

While the Bundys are heroes to a movement associated with militant nativism, they’ve always belonged to a peculiar strand of the American militia movement — one whose hostility to the federal government is rooted less in white nationalism than a libertarian Mormonism that honors the Church of Latter-day Saints’ traditional support for refugees."

Really? Who has determined that the militia movement is rooted in white nationalism, and what are the numbers on that regard?  It seems like an unfair generalization.

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40 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

You gunnuts are so fucking sensitive and so fucking full of yourselves. It's a political argument board on the internet with an ignore function.

 

But I see the butthurt dumbfuck living in PNG likes your post, so you've got that going for you.

When and how did you come to assumption that I’m a ‘gun nut’? 

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25 minutes ago, benwynn said:

While the Bundys are heroes to a movement associated with militant nativism, they’ve always belonged to a peculiar strand of the American militia movement — one whose hostility to the federal government is rooted less in white nationalism than a libertarian Mormonism that honors the Church of Latter-day Saints’ traditional support for refugees."

Really? Who has determined that the militia movement is rooted in white nationalism, and what are the numbers on that regard?  It seems like an unfair generalization.

Militia movement really gained steam after ruby ridge and then branch davidians, if you look at that cesspool it was often people who had an affinity for white supremacists/hard rightwingers. determination of fact is hard because these groups dont' have particularly deep, coherent, ideologies.

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1 hour ago, benwynn said:

...

Really? Who has determined that the militia movement is rooted in white nationalism, and what are the numbers on that regard?  It seems like an unfair generalization.

I'm going to go with an operational definition. If a militia was at Charlottesville then they're rooted in white nationalism. So that would include Pennsylvania Light Foot Militia, the New York Light Foot Militia, the Virginia Minutemen Militia, the Oath Keepers and the 3 Percenters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally#Militias

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Sorry Tom.

Jeffypoo claimed to be a libertarian so I kind of assumed Libertarians all held Jeffypoo veiws re immigration.

Tis what comes of lumping all protesters in a left/right basket.

my bad

 

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he got kicked in the head because the horsey didn't like him fingering his arse hole. what are the odds the effects would be positive?

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1 hour ago, 3to1 said:

he got kicked in the head because the horsey didn't like him fingering his arse hole. what are the odds the effects would be positive?

Unsurprising.......

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Sorry Tom.

Jeffypoo claimed to be a libertarian so I kind of assumed Libertarians all held Jeffypoo veiws re immigration.

Tis what comes of lumping all protesters in a left/right basket.

my bad

 

some of them are worse. this fine fellow, Arvin Vohra, was the vice-chairman of the US libertarian party. He'd rather a white supremacist who's against government schools, than a teacher who works in them.

DdgbOHaX0AA42dr.jpg

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http://www.votevohra.com/#intro  gives his platform while running for Senate in 2018.

His tweet, of course, wasn't about education, it was about welfare.  For clarity, his particular comments on education are:

"If we eliminate the Department of Education, and eliminate taxpayer-subsidized student loans and bribes for Common Core states, colleges will be forced to decrease tuition costs, states will no longer be coerced into implementing a backwards and counterproductive system of education, your children will get a better and cheaper education, and you will get to keep more of the money you earn."

 

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3 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Unsurprising.......

yes, a theory. pray tell, what say you?

 

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1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

http://www.votevohra.com/#intro  gives his platform while running for Senate in 2018.

His tweet, of course, wasn't about education, it was about welfare.  For clarity, his particular comments on education are:

"If we eliminate the Department of Education, and eliminate taxpayer-subsidized student loans and bribes for Common Core states, colleges will be forced to decrease tuition costs, states will no longer be coerced into implementing a backwards and counterproductive system of education, your children will get a better and cheaper education, and you will get to keep more of the money you earn."

 

And everyone gets a free unicorn every Christmas.

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23 minutes ago, 3to1 said:

yes, a theory. pray tell, what say you?

 

An explanation.

The olds of a horse kick causing an improvement? 

Low enough to be considered "unsurprising" given the assumed starting point.

 

 

As for your theory, rejection and violent reprisals from a black filly would explain certain character traits.

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1 hour ago, cmilliken said:

 For clarity

Arvin's got more than a few more to show he doesn't care about racism

#taxationisworsethanracism "racism is just an irrelevant opinion"

 

Look - quite clearly you are a libertarian who's bought into the party BS. It's just another party BS, it's shit still stinks, the politicians still lie, and they still turn a blind eye to abuse. Because they are a bunch of ineffectual fuckups doesn't change this.

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14 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

awww the team gunnut fucksticks are having a go at joe again. 

Hey raz'r, joe is the only one talking about gunz here.

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14 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

I can't say I give a fuck who starts it anymore - they all want to play the same stupid shit over and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over  and over and over and over and over 

Yes razr, we get it.

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13 hours ago, benwynn said:

Really? Who has determined that the militia movement is rooted in white nationalism, and what are the numbers on that regard?  It seems like an unfair generalization.

Ya think???  That's essentially what his country has come to.  We live on making unfair generalizations.

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12 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Sorry Tom.

Jeffypoo claimed to be a libertarian so I kind of assumed Libertarians all held Jeffypoo veiws re immigration.

Tis what comes of lumping all protesters in a left/right basket.

my bad

 

That's OK, you're an Aussie and have no reason to know better.

The reporter who found the situation "striking" OTOH, is either unacceptably clueless for someone trying to write an article on the subject or (more likely in my view) wants to deliberately confuse readers about who and what libertarians are. We're those Republicans who like illegal drugs, gay marriage, porn, immigration whether legal or not, and so many other notable right wing causes. Or possibly those Democrats who like property rights, economic freedom, and those tools that Joe hates so much. Confuses hell out of all partisans, all of whom quickly identify us with the OTHER half of the Duopoly based on those views.

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1 hour ago, dogballs Tom said:

That's OK, you're an Aussie and have no reason to know better.

The reporter who found the situation "striking" OTOH, is either unacceptably clueless for someone trying to write an article on the subject or (more likely in my view) wants to deliberately confuse readers about who and what libertarians are. We're those Republicans who like illegal drugs, gay marriage, porn, immigration whether legal or not, and so many other notable right wing causes. Or possibly those Democrats who like property rights, economic freedom, and those tools that Joe hates so much. Confuses hell out of all partisans, all of whom quickly identify us with the OTHER half of the Duopoly based on those views.

Truth.

Although I give more weight to the unacceptably clueless colluding with fundamental human greed.   I don't think most journalists or editors care about the distinction enough to try an undermine it - they just care about clicks and virtue signaling their audience to sell stories. 

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3 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

and those tools that Joe hates so much.

DISHONEST MUCH? They are guns, Tom. Be a standup libertarian, and call then what they are.

5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

We live on making unfair generalizations.

This depends, on each of us. The day is young.

 

Getting back to the precepts of the OP, here is Ammon and his issues, laid out in his own recent words:

Quote

He told The Post that his social media shutdown is not an indicator that he will stop fighting for what he believes.

“In free governments, the people own the land and the resources. That is the battle,” he says. “I have every intention of running the BLM [Bureau of Land Management] and the Forest Service and Fish and Wildlife right out of the West so the people can be free. Don’t think we’ll lighten up on that.”

Oh yeah, one other thing for libertarians, let's just nuke the Dept. of Education. What could go wrong with that?

This is quite the group.

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48 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Getting back to the precepts of the OP, here is Ammon and his issues, laid out in his own recent words:

Quote

He told The Post that his social media shutdown is not an indicator that he will stop fighting for what he believes.

“In free governments, the people own the land and the resources. That is the battle,” he says. “I have every intention of running the BLM [Bureau of Land Management] and the Forest Service and Fish and Wildlife right out of the West so the people can be free. Don’t think we’ll lighten up on that.”

He has some funny ideas about property rights that I don't share, but he's right that having the government own so much Western land is a bad idea.

Why is the fedgov in the cattle lease business? I don't think they should be. I don't think my opinion means that they're NOT in the cattle lease business, which is where I part ways with the Bundy clan.

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4 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

and those tools that Joe hates so much.

The spin begins, so of course I smell something already. You cant call gun guns. And you adopt the name "Publius" but can't actually commit to any particular version of history as your foundation.

 I don't think you can even articulate to this community the virtue, ideal, or benefit of range leasing, or of the BLM, or of the Forest Service. If you can, lay it down before proceeding further. If you can't articulate the position and benefit of your adversary, you should not even present the subject... no thanks for dishonest propaganda.

Canning the Fish and Wildlife authority is a terrible idea. And turning capitalists loose on public land is an even worse idea. But the twisted thinking, and the dishonest Libertarian representations, are the real enemy here. My .02.

I gave you my ear, Tom. I was not impressed with the overall presentation.

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CGP Grey gave a really nice history of Federal Land a week or so ago. 

""All of this means, today there is a big political divide between the states that have a lot of federal land with eastern states thinking of federal land as belonging to the nation as a whole.  Which is easy to do when you don't have a lot of it within your borders.""

 

 

 

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On 12/8/2018 at 7:10 AM, cmilliken said:

I think I remember looking at this a few years ago in one of our dialogs but I'll go back and check.  I'm not sure it was the same topic.

If it's what I'm remembering, the fundamental underpinning upon which I disagreed was that the bill of rights was inherently designed as enabling instead of disabling.  In other words, do the citizens start with infinite rights and the constitution begrudgingly takes them away or do the rules exist so that we can all get along and avoid killing each other.  In the former view (and the most popular libertarian 'do no harm' interpretation), the bill of rights is essentially a list of carve outs worthy of renumeration.  It's 'for emphasis' and 'clarity' just to make sure no one gets any funny ideas.  Again, from memory, the argument by Patrick Charles, he essentially said that was basically true EXCEPT for the 2nd which, at its core, is designed to SUPPORT constitutional law which is why it was written in the rather tortured language that was adopted.  It's not really a renumeration of individual rights but rather a renumeration of the importance of the citizenry to support the government and it's well-being upon which we're all going to rely.  My problem with that interpretation is that  it's singular in  regards to the OTHER rights.  I don't think most people would argue the importance of a 'free press' as a foundational expression of our support for the government.  It's not impossible but that interpretation does seem incongruent.

I'll go back and re-read Malcolm and refresh myself on the Standard Model before I go any further :)  It's been a while.

 

As a pretty much straight up, tree hugging lefty, that's my take on it.

The Constitution is an enabling document, a list of things that the U.S. Government can do, and they can't do anything not specifically enabled to them. The whole thing was clearly capstoned by the very last (at the time) Tenth Amendment, which says to the effect, "You can do the things listed above, but everything else is reserved to The States."

In the original purist argument, the Bill of Rights wasn't even needed, because there was no mechanism in the Constitution to allow any liberty-encroaching national laws to be made. The rationalists won out, we have our BoR. They had a point, stuff that isn't specifically enumerated gets stepped on all the time, it's the nature of some people to want to atrocity that they aren't specifically instructed not to do.

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:

CGP Grey gave a really nice history of Federal Land a week or so ago. 

""All of this means, today there is a big political divide between the states that have a lot of federal land with eastern states thinking of federal land as belonging to the nation as a whole.  Which is easy to do when you don't have a lot of it within your borders.""

Yeah - the Western states want the rest of the nation to give them all of that federal land for pennys on the dollar (or just free) as a permanent handout. It's really easy if you are a mooching western state to stomp your feet and say "its mine". We, the people, bought that land.  It's ours. Not the Bundys. Now - just because some eastern fucks like dogballs are ignorant of rural politics* (despite bullshitting about living down a gravel road) doesn't change that public lands in the west are public. Anyways - you two've got your libertarian bullshitting on, so have at your little bullshitt videos and reason circlejerk.

*short answer for the floridian TV shooter - the BLM & Forest Service are in the rural lifestyle subsidy business.They are a western lifestyle subsidy business -rural ranching, timber harvest, resource extraction, recreation - this is the subsidy business they play in. the "western" lifestyle isn't possible without dirt cheap land. People like the Bundy's want this lifestyle to go on forever, so they want to "own" the land for free.

government will still own much of the land in the west because it's economically useless. not enough water, resources, transport to make it worth a damn to anyone except swindlers or environmentalists.

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I just read the article. Ammon Bundy seems quite a bit more intelligent and thoughtful than one would have assumed. Not saying that I support his #YallQueda bullshit at all, but he apparently is not quite the stereotype Trumper moron one would guessed. He really just wants to left alone to earn a living by the sweat of his brow like any honest hard working man (on property that he doesn't own, but hey no one's perfect :rolleyes:)

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21 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Sorry Tom.

Jeffypoo claimed to be a libertarian so I kind of assumed Libertarians all held Jeffypoo veiws re immigration.

Tis what comes of lumping all protesters in a left/right basket.

my bad

 

Melipoo - I've never once said I was a libertarian.  In fact, I think as a national party, they are a bit of a joke and are too pollyanish on many things.  

However, I do share some libertarian views on many things.  Immigration is not one of them.  I also hold many liberal views on many other things.  Gun control is not one of them.  

I know....... It's shocking to the binary people like you that I might actually have complex views on politics and such.  

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8 hours ago, cmilliken said:
9 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

hat's OK, you're an Aussie and have no reason to know better.

The reporter who found the situation "striking" OTOH, is either unacceptably clueless for someone trying to write an article on the subject or (more likely in my view) wants to deliberately confuse readers about who and what libertarians are. We're those Republicans who like illegal drugs, gay marriage, porn, immigration whether legal or not, and so many other notable right wing causes. Or possibly those Democrats who like property rights, economic freedom, and those tools that Joe hates so much. Confuses hell out of all partisans, all of whom quickly identify us with the OTHER half of the Duopoly based on those views.

Truth.

Although I give more weight to the unacceptably clueless colluding with fundamental human greed.   I don't think most journalists or editors care about the distinction enough to try an undermine it - they just care about clicks and virtue signaling their audience to sell stories. 

Yep.... to both posts quoted above.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I just read the article. Ammon Bundy seems quite a bit more intelligent and thoughtful than one would have assumed. Not saying that I support his #YallQueda bullshit at all, but he apparently is not quite the stereotype Trumper moron one would guessed. He really just wants to left alone to earn a living by the sweat of his brow like any honest hard working man (on property that he doesn't own, but hey no one's perfect :rolleyes:)

He's right now at a very different place than he was then.

He is an intelligent man, and in the last few years he's traveled widely and spoken widely. His worldview isn't the same as it was.

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

The Constitution is an enabling document, a list of things that the U.S. Government can do, and they can't do anything not specifically enabled to them. The whole thing was clearly capstoned by the very last (at the time) Tenth Amendment, which says to the effect, "You can do the things listed above, but everything else is reserved to The States."

In the original purist argument, the Bill of Rights wasn't even needed, because there was no mechanism in the Constitution to allow any liberty-encroaching national laws to be made. The rationalists won out, we have our BoR. They had a point, stuff that isn't specifically enumerated gets stepped on all the time, it's the nature of some people to want to atrocity that they aren't specifically instructed not to do.

Actually mike.  That's incorrect.  Read the entire BoR's and everything is very clearly what the Gov't CANNOT do.

Quote

 

Am 1:  Congress shall make no law respecting an.....

Am 2:  ......the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Am 3:  No soldier shall, in time of peace, be....

Am 4:  ......Against unreasonable searches and seizure shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but.....

Am 5:  No person shall be held to......  nor shall any person be subject for......  nor shall any person be subject for.....nor shall any person be subject for.......   nor shall private property be taken....

Am 6:  the accused shall enjoy the right.....  and to be informed of...... and to have the assistance of....

Am 7:  ....the right of trial by jury shall be preserved,

Am 8:  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Am 9:  The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Am 10:  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

 

Every bit of the Bill of Rights is a limiting document on what the Gov't cannot do with respect to rights.  

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44 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Actually mike.  That's incorrect.  Read the entire BoR's and everything is very clearly what the Gov't CANNOT do.

Every bit of the Bill of Rights is a limiting document on what the Gov't cannot do with respect to rights.  

You're confusing the Amendments with the original text of the Constitution. What I wrote is correct.

The Constitution as originally written and argued, didn't need a Bill of Rights, because it's an enabling document, the only thing that the U.S. Government was allowed to do were the things specifically enabled within. They couldn't limit the Press, they couldn't integrate The Church, they couldn't limit firearms, they couldn't quarter soldiers in private homes, and these other things, because these were not powers that were specifically enabled to them in the Constitution. They couldn't even buy a National Donkey because that was a power not enabled to it.

For better or worse (mostly better, as history has shown) James Madison had every alarm bell start ringing in his head when he heard this argument and pushed through the specific protections enumerated in the BoR. The skill and ability of which he managed most of those is still the stuff of Constitutional legend. Those are the text items that you've highlighted above, and the ones that the Framers of the Constitution thought were superfluous.

You wrote that "every bit of the Bill of Rights is a limiting document" but you don't seem to understand that those were added in an attempt to get everything ratified. It was the mother of all Founding Father shitfights.

Once again, as we keep coming back to in all of these, we need to read the Tenth Amendment, it's the capstone on the Constitution because it explains how the whole thing works; the powers not delegated (i.e. enabled) to the United States (government) by The Constitution ...

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

You're confusing the Amendments with the original text of the Constitution. What I wrote is correct.

The Constitution as originally written and argued, didn't need a Bill of Rights, because it's an enabling document, the only thing that the U.S. Government was allowed to do were the things specifically enabled within. They couldn't limit the Press, they couldn't integrate The Church, they couldn't limit firearms, they couldn't quarter soldiers in private homes, and these other things, because these were not powers that were specifically enabled to them in the Constitution. They couldn't even buy a National Donkey because that was a power not enabled to it.

For better or worse (mostly better, as history has shown) James Madison had every alarm bell start ringing in his head when he heard this argument and pushed through the specific protections enumerated in the BoR. The skill and ability of which he managed most of those is still the stuff of Constitutional legend. Those are the text items that you've highlighted above, and the ones that the Framers of the Constitution thought were superfluous.

You wrote that "every bit of the Bill of Rights is a limiting document" but you don't seem to understand that those were added in an attempt to get everything ratified. It was the mother of all Founding Father shitfights.

Once again, as we keep coming back to in all of these, we need to read the Tenth Amendment, it's the capstone on the Constitution because it explains how the whole thing works; the powers not delegated (i.e. enabled) to the United States (government) by The Constitution ...

The problem there is that the body of the Constitution permits the congress to make the laws.  It places no constraints on what those laws might be.  For example, nothing in the constitution would stop congress from abolishing statehood.  Well, the independence of Senators appointed by the states would have stopped that but the Constitution was amended to make them more of a federal than state office.

The Bill Of Rights is intended to place bounds on what laws congress may enact.

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40 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

The problem there is that the body of the Constitution permits the congress to make the laws.  It places no constraints on what those laws might be.  For example, nothing in the constitution would stop congress from abolishing statehood. Well, the independence of Senators appointed by the states would have stopped that but the Constitution was amended to make them more of a federal than state office.

The Bill Of Rights is intended to place bounds on what laws congress may enact.

The Constitution is an enabling document, it grants specific powers to Congress and nothing else. But yeah, your point was the concern of the rationalists like Madison. He felt that people wouldn't get it. And that's why there is Tenth, the capstone. It unambiguously disallows government from doing anything it isn't specifically enabled to do.

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Actually mike.  That's incorrect.  Read the entire BoR's and everything is very clearly what the Gov't CANNOT do.

Every bit of the Bill of Rights is a limiting document on what the Gov't cannot do with respect to rights.  

"Am 2:  ......the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There it is again. The 2nd amendment with the first part left out. Why is that part always left out? 

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22 minutes ago, benwynn said:

"Am 2:  ......the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There it is again. The 2nd amendment with the first part left out. Why is that part always left out? 

You really are that dumb.

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54 minutes ago, Not guilty said:

You really are that dumb.

Was it not left out?  Educate my ass.

This should be good.

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6 minutes ago, benwynn said:

Was it not left out?  Educate my ass.

This should be good.

What was left out of the 1st and the 3rd and the 4th? Oh they are all abbreviated to show the "shall" section. So yes you are that dumb.

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1 hour ago, Not guilty said:

What was left out of the 1st and the 3rd and the 4th? Oh they are all abbreviated to show the "shall" section. So yes you are that dumb.

But the 2nd is special in this regard. The NRA has it on the wall of their HQ, with the first part.mysteriously missing.  It always is when someone is touting it.  Always. 

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2 hours ago, benwynn said:

"Am 2:  ......the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

There it is again. The 2nd amendment with the first part left out. Why is that part always left out? 

GO back and reread my post.  I left out a lot Most of the BoR text for brevity while trying to focus on key words that show that the gov't can't do something.

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4 minutes ago, benwynn said:

But the 2nd is special in this regard. The NRA has it on the wall of their HQ, with the first part.mysteriously missing.  It always is when someone is touting it.  Always. 

No it is not special, it is the same as all the others. People state freedom of speech all the time without quoting the whole amendment. 

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2 hours ago, Not guilty said:

No it is not special, it is the same as all the others. People state freedom of speech all the time without quoting the whole amendment. 

When a person is said to be taking the fifth, STILL no one pays attention to eminent domain abuse.

So unfair.

Ben, by the way, you're wrong but my response explaining why seemed funnier in the indoor militia thread so I put it there.

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3 hours ago, benwynn said:

But the 2nd is special in this regard. The NRA has it on the wall of their HQ, with the first part.mysteriously missing.  It always is when someone is touting it.  Always. 

Ironically, it's not just the abbreviation - it's:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              ^ that comma

that tends to be the most hotly debated punctuation in modern constitutional law.

 

 

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"...focus on key words that show that the gov't can't do something."

This is an argument that goes back to the origins of the current government and the emergence of political parties. Should the Constitution be interpreted strictly ("If it doesn't say you can, you can't") or loosely ("If it doesn't say you can't, you can").  The arguments between Hamilton (loose) and strict (Jefferson) during GW's first term resulted in the formation of the first political parties. If the guys involved in creating the document couldn't agree on how to look at it, it seems incorrect to assert there's only one "right" way to look at it.

 

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9 hours ago, learningJ24 said:

"...focus on key words that show that the gov't can't do something."

This is an argument that goes back to the origins of the current government and the emergence of political parties. Should the Constitution be interpreted strictly ("If it doesn't say you can, you can't") or loosely ("If it doesn't say you can't, you can").  The arguments between Hamilton (loose) and strict (Jefferson) during GW's first term resulted in the formation of the first political parties. If the guys involved in creating the document couldn't agree on how to look at it, it seems incorrect to assert there's only one "right" way to look at it.

 

Those arguments resulted in amendments 9 and 10.

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On 12/9/2018 at 11:50 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

I just read the article. Ammon Bundy seems quite a bit more intelligent and thoughtful than one would have assumed. Not saying that I support his #YallQueda bullshit at all, but he apparently is not quite the stereotype Trumper moron one would guessed. He really just wants to left alone to earn a living by the sweat of his brow like any honest hard working man (on property that he doesn't own, but hey no one's perfect :rolleyes:)

From the duplicate thread:

On 12/8/2018 at 2:26 PM, Hard On The Wind said:

Bundy:

" He (Trump) has basically called them all criminals and said they’re not coming in here. It seems that there’s been this group stereotype," Ammon Bundy said in a 17-minute video published on Facebook. "But what about those who have come here for reasons of need?... What about the fathers, the mothers, the children, who have come here and are willing to go through the process to apply for asylum so they can come into this country and benefit from not having to be oppressed continually by criminals?

"It’s all fear-based, and frankly it’s based upon selfishness—‘I’m going to lose something by them coming in,'" he said of anti-immigrant statements. "I think that’s incorrect. But also to base your arguments or your motives or your actions upon fear is a very dangerous thing to do."

"I have been frankly surprised, disappointed and even at times disgusted [by] the amount of people who profess to be Christians but will not truly adhere to what Christ said".

"Sky Fairy" believers can really surprise you if they really believe.

That's why I don't deride their beliefs as some feel the need to do. They do wonderful things because they think it will please their God. I prefer to focus on the first part of the sentence rather than mocking the last part, which I can't even disprove.

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11 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

From the duplicate thread:

"Sky Fairy" believers can really surprise you if they really believe.

That's why I don't deride their beliefs as some feel the need to do. They do wonderful things because they think it will please their God. I prefer to focus on the first part of the sentence rather than mocking the last part, which I can't even disprove.

Ammon Bundy is growing Tom. Nice. 

 

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Case Dismissed

Quote

 

...

Navarro rebuked federal prosecutors — using the words “flagrant” and “reckless” to describe how they withheld evidence from the defense — before saying “that the universal sense of justice has been violated” and dismissing the charges.

Supporters dabbed their eyes with tissues. Outside in the hall, there were cheers.

The four defendants were charged with threatening a federal officer, carrying and using a firearm, and engaging in conspiracy. The case had once looked like a slam-dunk to some.

The images that had made the Bundys heroes to some — armed supporters facing down federal agents as contractors with the U.S. Bureau of Land Management tried to seize cattle — seemed to be compelling evidence.

Monday’s dismissal was hinted at last month when Navarro ordered a mistrial. But she offered prosecutors a chance to make their case for why she should grant another trial.

Assistant U.S. Atty. Steven Myhre wrote in his brief that the government had shared 1.5 terabytes of information with defendants and noted that it was “by far the largest review and disclosure operation in this [U.S. attorney’s office] history.”

Myrhe also argued the government needed to protect some witnesses from leaks that might lead to threats, so it “culled the database with witness protection in mind.”

“Unprecedented database volume and witness concerns aside, the government never let these obstacles stand in the way of diligently working to fulfill its discovery obligations,” he wrote.

Navarro didn’t buy it and shredded the government for a “reckless disregard for Constitutional obligations.” She said she was troubled by the prosecution's tardiness in delivering information about the government's placing of surveillance cameras and snipers outside the ranch....

 

Signs of nationalist tyranny abound in America today.

That's not one of them. The Bundy's claimed the government was misbehaving and instead of getting themselves and their families sent to forced labor camps, as happens in real tyrannical governments, we saw a Judge hear their claim, rebuke the prosecution, and dismiss the case.

To all the "why don't you take up arms?" people: because this works better for now and that's an extremely messy, dangerous solution.

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So I guess I'm the only one who thinks prosecutors who behave with a flagrant, reckless disregard for justice and Constitutional obligations should be fired, disbarred, and never allowed to practice law again?

Not sure if we should also bar them from running for office, since you know that's going to be what attracts lawyers with no ethics.

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I am shocked, positively shocked that no-one wants to discuss an otherwise interesting subject with you, Tom. I have no idea why everyone tries to avoid conversation with you, no matter how intriguing the topic. 

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29 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

I am shocked, positively shocked that no-one wants to discuss an otherwise interesting subject with you, Tom. I have no idea why everyone tries to avoid conversation with you, no matter how intriguing the topic. 

Have you noticed that Tom’s pretty much the only one that tries to discuss with you?

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I could shut down all the political disagreement in America just by speaking on every topic!

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46 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

I could shut down all the political disagreement in America just by speaking on every topic!

You may not have noticed but people still manage to talk around you when there are others more reasonable discussing the subject. Just not to you. Unless you count that weird love affair you and jocal indulge in.

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1 minute ago, Bent Sailor said:

You may not have noticed but people still manage to talk around you when there are others more reasonable discussing the subject.

I did miss that! Thanks for the heads up!

Where is the reasonable discussion of the prosecutorial misconduct and dismissal of the topic case? Got a link?

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1 minute ago, dogballs Tom said:

I did miss that! Thanks for the heads up!

You're welcome.

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7 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

You're welcome.

Oh, so it's like the Kelo case, asset forfeiture, etc. There is no one else who brings it up.

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6 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:
14 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

You're welcome.

Oh, so it's like the Kelo case, asset forfeiture, etc. There is no one else who brings it up.

No. "You're welcome" is like other courteous responses expected from polite conversation like "Very good thanks" and "Oh, you shouldn't have"

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25 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

I did miss that! Thanks for the heads up!

Where is the reasonable discussion of the prosecutorial misconduct and dismissal of the topic case? Got a link?

Did you also miss that the gun walking started in the Bush Administration? You're welcome.

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41 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Did you also miss that the gun walking started in the Bush Administration? You're welcome.

That certainly sheds new light on the prosecutorial misconduct that resulted in the dismissal.

Thanks for the reasonable discussion! I can see why you're viewed as so honest and informative.

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