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J28

Paris is Burning!

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14 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

That's actually a fair point about domestic vs Foreign politics.  You are correct and I was wrong in calling it FP.  I knew what I meant, but labeled it wrong.

 However, my analogy still stands.  KSA is conducting domestic policy against one of its own citizens which the TDS choir here doesn't like and demands the US intervene in KSA's domestic issues.  Yes, the incident happened on foreign soil but in a Saudi consulate, which is a grey area on who's soil it actually is.  No doubt the Saud's cocked this up bigly, Belief me.  But if there is any FP issues to be dealt with, they are between KSA and Turkey.  Its really not the US's concerns anymore than striking workers in France are.

 And Yes, trumples was wrong to tweet about France.  We SHOULD STFU and stay out of other country's domestic policies.  

Were the murder victim in question not also a US resident, I think you'd have a point. The fact he was US resident, working for a US company, three of his kids are citizens, and apparently was applying for citizenship brings it into the foreign policy arena. Besides that, what a nation thinks is acceptable to do in an embassy or consulate is very much a foreign policy issue. You correctly labelled it FP based on such things in the first place and, I believe, are merely backtracking in order to keep arguing a point you recognise no longer has a solid moral foundation.

I agree, you should STFU & stay out of other nation's domestic politics. You should be free to engage with & criticise other nations when foreign policy involving the murder of your citizens and residents is involved. I'd expect any government in the same position to do so, not just the US. It isn't about your world police fixation - it's about the responsibility a nation has towards it's citizens & residents. 

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15 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

That's actually a fair point about domestic vs Foreign politics.  You are correct and I was wrong in calling it FP.  I knew what I meant, but labeled it wrong.

However, my analogy still stands.  KSA is conducting domestic policy against one of its own citizens which the TDS choir here doesn't like and demands the US intervene in KSA's domestic issues.  Yes, the incident happened on foreign soil but in a Saudi consulate, which is a grey area on who's soil it actually is.  No doubt the Saud's cocked this up bigly, Belief me.  But if there is any FP issues to be dealt with, they are between KSA and Turkey.  Its really not the US's concerns anymore than striking workers in France are.

And Yes, trumples was wrong to tweet about France.  We SHOULD STFU and stay out of other country's domestic policies.  

Where do you stand on the first Novichok attack in the UK?

Same as above, domestic policy, minus the embassy? 

There was a worldwide condemnation of that incident. It’s an increasingly difficult line to tread. 

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On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:18 AM, Dog said:

Do we all understand that the protests are in large part against taxes imposed to comply with the Paris accords.

yep, glad we pulled out...how is that working for Macon??????

 

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The protests in France (and Belgium and the Netherlands) are a symptom of the unsustainable economies of the social democracies of Western European, which are saddled with high debt loads, high taxes, high unemployment and recent large immigrant inflows.  Even worse than the problems in France, Belgium and Netherlands are those in Spain, Italy and Greece.  Stay tuned, their problems are going to get worse, maybe much worse.

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3 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

I agree, you should STFU & stay out of other nation's domestic politics. You should be free to engage with & criticise other nations when foreign policy involving the murder of your citizens and residents is involved. I'd expect any government in the same position to do so, not just the US. It isn't about your world police fixation - it's about the responsibility a nation has towards it's citizens & residents. 

If we did that there wouldn't be well paying expat jobs for people like Jeffreaux. The export of our military - arms sales, training, post sales service workers is the commingling of foreign and domestic policy that's the hallmark of the US. Kinda like exporting "freedom" is with people like Khashoggi. His take the "US should just STFU" is more "people who value human rights, dignity, anything over cold hard cash should shutup". It's morally vacuous, short sighted, stupid... and therefore expected from him.

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18 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

 

I do not think that gas taxes is that line. Trump needs to STFU on that one, he knows even less about what is going in in France than J28 does.

Gas taxes is the laughable leftie CAGW line the whole world is laughing about and the
French citizen are saying FU about. 

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Jeeez - we're drowning in ignorance here . . 

The issue for Macron is that he cut taxes big time on the rich, while sticking it to the poor and cutting social programs. 

He might well have gotten away with it if he had called for sacrifices by all . . 

That is what I meant (much) earlier when I called Macron an :austerity meister" - very much like the US GOOPERS . . .  

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8 hours ago, mad said:

Where do you stand on the first Novichok attack in the UK?

Same as above, domestic policy, minus the embassy? 

There was a worldwide condemnation of that incident. It’s an increasingly difficult line to tread. 

That's an entirely different matter.  It was conducted on UK soil in public.  The rooskies deserve every bit of shit over this they get.  

As I said, the fact that it was in the saudi embassy/consulate makes it all a very grey area.  Had they killed him in a park in Istanbul, that's an entirely different animal.

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9 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

You correctly labelled it FP based on such things in the first place and, I believe, are merely backtracking in order to keep arguing a point you recognise no longer has a solid moral foundation.

BTW - fuck off.  I'm not arguing the moral foundation of anything.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who on one hand WANT trump to interfere in domestic policy.  But then get pissy when he interferes in someone else's domestic policy.

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5 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

 I'm not arguing the moral foundation of anything. 

Truer words have never been spoken on this site.  Gator (Fakenews) is scared for his ass 24/7.  

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52 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

BTW - fuck off.  I'm not arguing the moral foundation of anything.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who on one hand WANT trump to interfere in domestic policy.  But then get pissy when he interferes in someone else's domestic policy.

Uh huh. Except, as I pointed out, it's simple not the case this is just a "domestic policy". The issue in question explicitly relates to a US resident, with "anchor children", working for a US company, having recently criticised the US president in US media, and having started the process of becoming a US citizen being murdered in a foreign embassy with your President rejecting the findings of the CIA (not FBI) in order to justify the continued sale of arms to a nation so as to maintain a certain status quo regarding the international trade of oil.

Your point only holds together if you conveniently ignore all those facts demonstrating it to be a foreign policy issue... but ignoring inconvenient facts is how you roll. Not surprised you're trying it on. Again. :rolleyes: 

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Now the kids are joining in the fun with "Black Tuesday" protests:

High-school students have been angered by President Macron's plans to change the end-of-school exam, known as the baccalaureate or ‘bac’, and replace the broad subject areas pupils currently choose from – science, literature or social sciences – with more specific courses. They demand the repeal of a reform, passed last year, which introduces stricter selection criteria for university. Critics say the government’s moves breed inequality between rich schools and poorer, peripheral ones. They also oppose plans for a national civic service for French youths, due to be rolled out in 2026.

https://www.france24.com/en/20181210-france-high-school-students-protests-yellow-vests

Why can't French youth be good little socialists and accept the fact that socialism means you get a rich entitled class and a poor everyone else?  And they should embrace a "national civic service program" because socialism.
 

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10 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

That's an entirely different matter.  It was conducted on UK soil in public.  The rooskies deserve every bit of shit over this they get.  

As I said, the fact that it was in the saudi embassy/consulate makes it all a very grey area.  Had they killed him in a park in Istanbul, that's an entirely different animal.

So the only difference is that it took place in an embassy? 

I understand the whole embassy process, but acts like this surely come very close to breaking the rules and reasoning behind them. 

Obviously, they don’t feel too bad about it all, otherwise they’d have expelled the lot of them and closed it down. 

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4 hours ago, mad said:

So the only difference is that it took place in an embassy? 

I understand the whole embassy process, but acts like this surely come very close to breaking the rules and reasoning behind them. 

Obviously, they don’t feel too bad about it all, otherwise they’d have expelled the lot of them and closed it down

"They" being the Turks.  This is what I have trouble getting outraged over.  Yes it sucks that the sauds killed the dude.  I have no issue with the criticism being leveled at them.  Its all valid and they deserve every bit of shit they get.  

But Given the brutality of the turks against their own people and Erdo's strongman ethos, this whole "crocodile tears" charade is just an act.  Turkey and Erdo are no fans of a free press nor is there any love for this journalist.  This is nothing more than an opportunistic ploy to shakedown KSA for concessions and/or to try to drive a wedge between the US and KSA.  Both seem to be working well for the turks at the moment.  I can't blame them for milking it for all its worth.  But if they were truly outraged at this egregious act, they would have given KSA the boot and closed down the consulate.

I think the act itself is reprehensible.  But the Sauds kill their own people all the time.  A US resident =/= US Citizen.  I am currently a resident in another country.  Do you think that country would even give two fucks if I were killed while out of their country?  I doubt it would register.  If a US resident UK citizen were murdered outside the US while on vacation - I doubt it would even register at the US State Dept.  It would be the concern of the UK gov't.  

Meh.  

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

A US resident =/= US Citizen.  I am currently a resident in another country.  Do you think that country would even give two fucks if I were killed while out of their country?  I doubt it would register.

I doubt it would either. One of the reasons that the USA (and a lot of other first world nations) don't take them as an example on how to treat people. As I understand it, you would disagree with the USA deciding to treat it's own the way your "host" nation treats theirs. As such, it's (once again) hypocritical to be making such an apples to oranges comparison.

 

1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

If a US resident UK citizen were murdered outside the US while on vacation - I doubt it would even register at the US State Dept.  It would be the concern of the UK gov't.  

If that US resident, UK citizen were to have their murder investigated by the CIA and that murder was deemed to be done at the orders of a foreign head of state, I bet you the US State Department would "register" the event. The UK government would be concerned as well, for sure, but pretending that this issue is merely another domestic murder is beneath most people. Not you apparently, but I've not seen a floor to where you'll stoop yet.

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