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Sun Fast 3300

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Verdier has designed a funky looking hull here and pretty distorted in places. It’ll have stiff competition from the JPK 1030, J99, Ofcet 32, MAT 1070, MMW 33, new Nivelt 34 and the new Beneteau First 35 arriving next year

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1 minute ago, JL92S said:

Verdier has designed a funky looking hull here and pretty distorted in places. It’ll have stiff competition from the JPK 1030, J99, Ofcet 32, MAT 1070, MMW 33, new Nivelt 34 and the new Beneteau First 35 arriving next year

I hope it doesn't look that distorted in the flesh.

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If it’s fast I don’t care what it looks like! I’m hoping to get a ride on the first UK boat when it arrives. Curiously back when Maxi 72 Ran II started to win everything they put a rating tax on the hollows in the stern. I wonder if the bow and stern hollows of the 3300 also incur the same tax...

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4 hours ago, JL92S said:

Verdier has designed a funky looking hull here and pretty distorted in places. It’ll have stiff competition from the JPK 1030, J99, Ofcet 32, MAT 1070, MMW 33, new Nivelt 34 and the new Beneteau First 35 arriving next year

Add in the Dehler 30 OD to that list too. 

Is interesting that Ofcet is marketing their boat as a v2 now: less displ, more sail area, different keel and water ballast. The J99 looks to be going the other direction with an aluminum mast, and published displ 700# more than the SF3300. 

Hopefully JPK will have more out about the 1030 soon  

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The Ofcet has been given the sail sizes, keel and displacement it was designed with in the first place. In an effort to get the boat into the lower irc rating band they piled the weight onto the boat and chopped the sails down but found the boat to be sluggish (funny that...). The 99 comes as standard with an aluminium mast but carbon is an option, as is water ballast, as is a symmetric kite setup, as are twin rudders and all UK boats will be sold with the lead fin keel but the L shaped iron fin lead bulb keel is still available. Interestingly the 3300 is available with two sizes of square top main, I guess the idea is either long bowsprit, assymetrics and big main or symmetric, short bowsprit and small(er) main

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44 minutes ago, JL92S said:

The Ofcet has been given the sail sizes, keel and displacement it was designed with in the first place. In an effort to get the boat into the lower irc rating band they piled the weight onto the boat and chopped the sails down but found the boat to be sluggish (funny that...). The 99 comes as standard with an aluminium mast but carbon is an option, as is water ballast, as is a symmetric kite setup, as are twin rudders and all UK boats will be sold with the lead fin keel but the L shaped iron fin lead bulb keel is still available. Interestingly the 3300 is available with two sizes of square top main, I guess the idea is either long bowsprit, assymetrics and big main or symmetric, short bowsprit and small(er) main

Absolutely agreed on the Ofcet. The SC version was always listed as lighter than the "race" version. Are those Nigel's pics of the SF3300? 

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1 hour ago, Parma said:

So, judging by the specs, it's a mod looking Bene 10R / 34.7 with backstays.

Big whoop.

I guess if you want a spec sheet that jumps out at you then you should look at Figaro 3s, if you want an irc boat then be prepared for modest specs

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4 hours ago, JL92S said:

I guess if you want a spec sheet that jumps out at you then you should look at Figaro 3s, if you want an irc boat then be prepared for modest specs

Don't forget the market for these boats, day sailors or overnighters with IRC racing capability at a price point.

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6 hours ago, Snowden said:

Interesting that they have ditched the twin tillers, I thought SF owners liked those?

They want the traveler as far aft & wide as possible. The rudder stock still terminates on the deck - so if consumers wanted the option, I'm sure they can revive the raised traveler track for the tillers go pass under. 

The rating optimized deck is starting to show the extreme convergence of the Ofcet 32, JPK1030 & Sun Fast 3300. 

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That hull shape reminds me of something. IOR. Seems that's where we are heading back again, hull shapes for rating not speed. Great. 

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

They want the traveler as far aft & wide as possible. The rudder stock still terminates on the deck - so if consumers wanted the option, I'm sure they can revive the raised traveler track for the tillers go pass under. 

The rating optimized deck is starting to show the extreme convergence of the Ofcet 32, JPK1030 & Sun Fast 3300. 

The coachroof cutaways are mainly for sheeting angles, tell me how a deck shape affects the rating?

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3 hours ago, Miffy said:

They want the traveler as far aft & wide as possible. The rudder stock still terminates on the deck - so if consumers wanted the option, I'm sure they can revive the raised traveler track for the tillers go pass under. 

I suppose the next step is across the transom at deck level like IMOCA, Class 40 etc etc

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29 minutes ago, hoppy said:

It looks to me that it might be possible that the hull shape may reduce the amount of hull in the water when planning

You have opened a can of worms there by using the 'p' word.

This is a 3.5 ton 33 footer, who knows what the actual sailing weight will be.

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4 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

That hull shape reminds me of something. IOR. Seems that's where we are heading back again, hull shapes for rating not speed. Great. 

 does look a bit like that. 

the 3200 & 3600 were a success, hard to think they'd be taking a backwards step. 

assume they're trying to address the stickiness the 3200's suffered from?

they've got significantly less beam. Slightly more weight, but added length. 

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3 hours ago, JL92S said:

The coachroof cutaways are mainly for sheeting angles, tell me how a deck shape affects the rating?


If you say so - never noticed a hull cutaway changing how a friction ring system works. 


Cutting the deck affects max beam measurement, reduced weight while allowing the boats to have large volumes at the bow. It might not seem much - but when they carry that natural line from the bow to the chainplates, it sometimes moves the aft beam measurement by a meter. 

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On 12/11/2018 at 6:49 PM, Alcatraz5768 said:

Fashion has changed it seems. Chines are out and fwd facing side windows are in. Good to know. 

Fashion is cyclic.  Ugly on the other hand, that's forever.

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On 12/12/2018 at 8:48 PM, hoppy said:

Isn't it done like that for water flow, i.e. speed?

It looks to me that it might be possible that the hull shape may reduce the amount of hull in the water when planning

The hull shape is designed to promote earlier surfing/planing compared to the 3200, with less wetted surface area and more sail area. With the mast and keep positioned further aft, the jib and spinnaker can be bigger. The twin tillers on the 3200 worked well, except that they were targets for the mainsheet to wrap around!! This won't be the case on the 3300.The design has a downwind bias, good for the Transquadra, but maintains the high stability for upwind work. The hull inflexions are there for hydrodynamic reasons, not as IRC rule cheats. Give Verdier a clean sheet of paper and he always draws fast boats (Comanche, Hugo Boss etc), Andrieu's challenge has been to keep the boat IRC friendly without losing the Verdier sparkle. I'll let you know in June when I get my 3300.

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Similar to John Morgans Classe 950 from a while back....it was distorted for a combination of upwind ..then reach , .. and downwind with a big bum

  he then modified hull to have a cant keel version of the hull...   not classe 950

image.png.2dc4199777f74c4ad9e18c4e6c68c75b.png

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On 12/13/2018 at 12:08 AM, SCARECROW said:

Fashion is cyclic.  Ugly on the other hand, that's forever.

And this one has really has had the ugly stick waved over it!

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On 12/13/2018 at 10:37 PM, Fastrak said:

. I'll let you know in June when I get my 3300.

Any crewed inshore in your plans? We’ve just taken on a JPK1010 and it looks like we’re going to be within a few points...

but we’re an almost entirely inshore program, wondering if we’re likely to line up against any 3300s next year? Should be close racing. 

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9 hours ago, GBH said:

And this one has really has had the ugly stick waved over it!

Beaten half to death with it. 

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23 hours ago, Flaming said:

Any crewed inshore in your plans? We’ve just taken on a JPK1010 and it looks like we’re going to be within a few points...

but we’re an almost entirely inshore program, wondering if we’re likely to line up against any 3300s next year? Should be close racing. 

I do mainly Offshore and solo or double-handed. But for this coming Summer we are considering a crewed Fastnet campaign and the Double-Handed IRC Nationals. In 2020 there is the Transquadra - on my bucket shop list.

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1 hour ago, Fastrak said:

In 2020 there is the Transquadra

Difficult to understand this race, what do folks do between the 2 legs?

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3 hours ago, spyderpig said:

Difficult to understand this race, what do folks do between the 2 legs?

Same as Minitransat. Some people work on their boats, some people rent a house with other skippers and crew and have a good time. Some go back to the continent to family and work. 

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On 12/23/2018 at 1:30 AM, GBH said:

And this one has really has had the ugly stick waved over it!

 

On 12/23/2018 at 11:14 AM, Alcatraz5768 said:

Beaten half to death with it. 

NO NO NO!!!!

It's "That boat fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down."

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A lot of gossip and rumours in France. Is it a breakthrough or a dog? Maybe brilliant downhill in Transquadra but ….? Was the project rushed because of the competitors coming to market? Seems they have bodged on rigs for certification reasons putting a shorter tin stick to comply with stability of carbon then chopping the carbon rig for compatibility reasons and putting a fat top main on both …. Opinion seems to be that there is time to sort out the cock ups before the next Transquadra in 2020.

I find it hard to think that a distorted hull will be all round quicker than a fair hull?

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On 2/17/2019 at 6:28 PM, cms said:

A lot of gossip and rumours in France. Is it a breakthrough or a dog? Maybe brilliant downhill in Transquadra but ….? Was the project rushed because of the competitors coming to market? Seems they have bodged on rigs for certification reasons putting a shorter tin stick to comply with stability of carbon then chopping the carbon rig for compatibility reasons and putting a fat top main on both …. Opinion seems to be that there is time to sort out the cock ups before the next Transquadra in 2020.

I find it hard to think that a distorted hull will be all round quicker than a fair hull?

Where do you get your info from? I’ll reserve judgement until the first boats are actually built and sailing...

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Info from various French sources. Sailmakers, customers who have ordered or are discussing orders. Like I said, people are questioning, and the project is very young, so time will tell. Daniel is an old friend who I have huge time for. We shall see how the double concavity gets on. We just don't know. The rig stuff etc is all just normal with a project like this in early days. There is a bit of a juggle between what is necessary for a fluid production run, and what individual owners want. Often takes a while. A smaller yard like JPK, where hull #1 is usually a works boat or a selected client, works in a different fashion.

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Nigel Colley will have the first UK boat and that will not be a bad setup. I also can’t see Verdier designing a bad hull as weird as it looks from some angles

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I can assure you plenty of healthy discussions behind the scenes, but everything is now just about set. Sure, there are compromises to make the series production at a price/performance point that is acceptable and viable, and there will be possibilities for owners with deeper pockets to invest in marginal gains. We have made our choices for the new Fastrak. We are being loaned a boat in advance to verify those choices and the polars. Exciting times! The passion the collaborative design team have put into the project has been insightful. "Dog" .. I doubt it ... this will be a "technical" boat to sail with those who master it gaining big rewards.

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On 2/17/2019 at 6:28 PM, cms said:

A lot of gossip and rumours in France. Is it a breakthrough or a dog? Maybe brilliant downhill in Transquadra but ….? Was the project rushed because of the competitors coming to market? Seems they have bodged on rigs for certification reasons putting a shorter tin stick to comply with stability of carbon then chopping the carbon rig for compatibility reasons and putting a fat top main on both …. Opinion seems to be that there is time to sort out the cock ups before the next Transquadra in 2020.

I find it hard to think that a distorted hull will be all round quicker than a fair hull?

I have to agree with you about the the distortions in the hull, it’s the first thing that caught my eye. I haven’t even looked at the rig plan or deck layout really. 

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11 hours ago, JL92S said:

Nigel Colley will have the first UK boat and that will not be a bad setup. I also can’t see Verdier designing a bad hull as weird as it looks from some angles

I am sure Nigel will sort his boat well (his post below yours), and I am certainly not knocking the boat, merely relating some of the questioning that is current. Daniel's hulls have been ver fair, and he has lots of IRC experience. Guillaume has largely been designing very different boats to very different rules, so it will be fascinating to see how this pans out. It is also interesting to read all the stuff being written about the new J/99. The J/112 was clearly an excellent "all round" performer, less oriented to Transquadra type events, but the J/99 looks to be trying to narrow the gap?

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I’m not sure if the 3300 will be ready for Spi Ouest this year but it’s usually a pretty good indicator of which 32-36ft irc boat is up to speed. 

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SF3300.jpg

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16 hours ago, hoppy said:

What hull number are you getting?

003 or may be 004

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Here we have it..

Love the deck. This one comes with alu mast instead of carbon. It seems that it doesn’t have sail drive which seems strange these days. Any ideas?

the convexity in the bow is pretty pronounced, I want to see how it performs. At first sight it is awesome.

45A140E6-6981-4ED6-9F3F-7E2770F4A692.jpeg

4112A322-88B9-4E41-AF68-EBFF125925CC.jpeg

B9CC28A6-6929-45A6-A601-586E8B9D9744.jpeg

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IIRC that 'enclosed strut' method for the prop shaft has less drag than a saildrive. And no corrosion issues. Boat builders LOVE saildrives because they are sooo simple to install, the entire system is bolted together. Just cut a hole in the hull, mount a prefab engine mount pan, & bolt it in.

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Jeanneau smaller boat offerings  often use shaft drives - nothing unusual and in the modern era, esp if vacuum bagging anyway - there's very little extra work involved to deal with a shaft drive, just a matter of the architect's design. 

Amongst the dockside cruiser crowd there's always a lot of dogmatic opinions re shaft and sail drives - in the end it is just a compromise with pros and cons with each solution. You'll find class 40s with either.

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On 12/13/2018 at 1:08 AM, SCARECROW said:

Fashion is cyclic.  Ugly on the other hand, that's forever.

On 12/23/2018 at 10:30 AM, GBH said:

And this one has really has had the ugly stick waved over it!

On 12/23/2018 at 8:14 PM, Alcatraz5768 said:

Beaten half to death with it. 

On 1/11/2019 at 2:43 AM, Parma said:

 

NO NO NO!!!!

It's "That boat fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down."

Some said the same about the Pogo36 - but the more you see it the better it gets. I think it's more of a "challenges the norms" kinda thing. See something unexpected - and recoil...

But the Pogo is definitely not designed to rate well as I understand it. Designed to sail and cruise and flip the bird at ratings?

 

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7 hours ago, kenex said:

Here we have it..

Love the deck. This one comes with alu mast instead of carbon. It seems that it doesn’t have sail drive which seems strange these days. Any ideas?

the convexity in the bow is pretty pronounced, I want to see how it performs. At first sight it is awesome.

45A140E6-6981-4ED6-9F3F-7E2770F4A692.jpeg

4112A322-88B9-4E41-AF68-EBFF125925CC.jpeg

B9CC28A6-6929-45A6-A601-586E8B9D9744.jpeg

Why have two forward hatches?? Just another thing to leak! 

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I have a feeling that a shaft drive incurs a lower hull factor under irc. 

Also the 3600 has 2 forehatches and we find it works well, one hatch the ventilate the bow and the other to ventilate the saloon

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Graphics are probably a vinyl wrap as that is pretty common in France and the boat was all white when it arrived at Grassi Bateaux for commissioning.  

Likely lots of bodies on board as they are getting ready for Spi Ouest in La Trinite over Easter weekend

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Can anybody else remember a time when boats hulls and keels were distorted to fit a rule? How did that turn out?

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That whole article could have been written about ior boats. Fool the water into thinking the waterline is longer, it performs well under the current rules, it allows a shorter waterline. None of this stuff makes boats faster, it makes the rules think it's slower, we should have moved on from this shit. 

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Distorted hull is to maximize waterline at specific heel angles without compromising light air performance with large amount of wetted area. 

The idea, whether Verdier, Lombard or even in the 6.5 scene like Pogo 3 or Raison - is pretty much the same. Maximize righting moment with given displacement and keel depth, maximize bow volume at all heel angles without reducing effective waterline. The French architects will concede that upwind it'd make a less comfortable boat, but the idea is to maintain the power and avert bowpitch poling - while also maintaining a plane downwind/power reach so the waterline doesn't limit the small boat performance. 

IRC theoretically keeps boats safe without becoming unseaworthy because the methodology isn't officially public tho designers can submit proposals for guidance. I'm certainly not seeing any peculiar like the old days and the dominant boats like JPK or Sunfasts don't seem to be unseaworthy grand prix boats. 

 

 

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Yep, far away from the later IOR design weirdness.

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I'm not saying these boats look like ior boats, I'm saying we're heading down the same track. There's no way this thing will plane or that it will be faster than a boat with a nice fair hull form, but it will do better under the rule. That's my point, designing to ruleslike these culminates in boats that are slower, but rate even slower. If this shape was so good tp52s would look like it, and do away with their silly bulb keels. 

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Clearly, absent rating rules, it wouldn't look the way it does. So all those twists and bends slow it down, just not as much as the rule would think:

 

A closer look at the underwater sections of the hull show that we have kept significant rake in the hull, after all these calculations were completed, which for us was a real aligning of the stars. This has kept the water line fairly short, versus the overall hull length. When combined with the high hull volume, this has hit a sweet spot under many rating rules, and is beneficial to performance overall

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11 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Like all those vende globe bulbless keels?

Canters, all about stability. Different story.

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for those of you who are not liking the 3300 hull shape and irc rule’ness might I recommend the Figaro 3?

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If IRC isn't your thing - there are plenty of other lightweight no rating consideration boats out there. If you want Ofcet will gladly install a cast iron bulb instead of the lead fin, or even a lifting keel like ones used on Jeanneau 349s, Pogos, RMs, Djangos/Maree Haute. Like all things, boats are compromises.

Not everything has to be designed to fit one customer requirement. 

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Surely the point of the hull form of boats like the Sunfast, the JPKs, the Ofcet etc is that a good proportion of their righting moment comes from the hull form.  As such, unless you go for a massive long canting keel, the benefits of having a bulb keel are reduced compared to a narrower boat without a chine. 

Certainly even the shorthanded offshore guys are mostly using the IRC keel on the JPKs.  Giving up a bit of CoG for less wetted surface area, an easier boat to drive (and hence easier on the autohelm) and potentially actually faster downwind.  I'm not actually sure if the JPK1080 is even available with the bulb keel that the 1010 was initially.  

 

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Wouldn't have to worry about picking up shit around the keel as well. 

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4 hours ago, Flaming said:

Surely the point of the hull form of boats like the Sunfast, the JPKs, the Ofcet etc is that a good proportion of their righting moment comes from the hull form.  As such, unless you go for a massive long canting keel, the benefits of having a bulb keel are reduced compared to a narrower boat without a chine. 

Certainly even the shorthanded offshore guys are mostly using the IRC keel on the JPKs.  Giving up a bit of CoG for less wetted surface area, an easier boat to drive (and hence easier on the autohelm) and potentially actually faster downwind.  I'm not actually sure if the JPK1080 is even available with the bulb keel that the 1010 was initially.  

 

The JPK actually uses a fabricated fin keel that is a strut with hollow fairing at the top and lead at the bottom giving you the benefit of a lower cog but with the hydrodynamic benefits of the straight fin. Currently this incurs a penalty under IRC but from what I hear that penalty may be scrapped for 2020.

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4 hours ago, Flaming said:

Surely the point of the hull form of boats like the Sunfast, the JPKs, the Ofcet etc is that a good proportion of their righting moment comes from the hull form.  As such, unless you go for a massive long canting keel, the benefits of having a bulb keel are reduced compared to a narrower boat without a chine. 

Certainly even the shorthanded offshore guys are mostly using the IRC keel on the JPKs.  Giving up a bit of CoG for less wetted surface area, an easier boat to drive (and hence easier on the autohelm) and potentially actually faster downwind.  I'm not actually sure if the JPK1080 is even available with the bulb keel that the 1010 was initially.  

 

For the most part JPK will build you whatever boat you want but you're right, bulb isn't even an option on the 1080.  You had me curious so I looked and you are indeed 100% correct!.  It's listed as an option for the 1010 but not the 1080.  I've never sailed a 1010 but the 1080 is a very solid and stiff boat, B/D ratio of about 45% and lots of form stability also.  I was somewhat skeptical about not having a bulb keel but in retrospect it's completely unnecessary and the fin keel in theory should provide a little more speed downwind.   It will be interesting to see if these type of fin keel designs remain isolated to specific boat types or if they become more mainstream in the future.  Could what's old become new again?

 At the end of each JPK model there is an option list:  http://www.jpk.fr/?mode=gamme_voiliers_jpk or translated to English for those of us with less than stellar French: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.jpk.fr/&prev=search

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The only reason these keels exist is because irc has a penalty for a proper bulb and fin t keel. If everyone in your area races irc then all these boats are a good option, but don't try to tell me they're the fastest thing out there. 

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For our 3600 we would have picked the flat keel regardless, currently we race 2 handed offshore but if we decide to race across the Atlantic i’d rather have the keel that performs best downwind. Or if we decide to take it W/L racing with a crew i’d rather have the keel that offers better upwind performance sub 18kts and better downwind performance all round. There are boats this keel doesn’t suit, we also race a J88, you’d have to make the draft that much deeper than standard to make up for that boats lack of form stability that it would probably push the rating up.

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1 hour ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

The only reason these keels exist is because irc has a penalty for a proper bulb and fin t keel. If everyone in your area races irc then all these boats are a good option, but don't try to tell me they're the fastest thing out there. 

With the qualification that I'm not a naval architect, just someone who takes an interest... To me that looks at the keel in isolation when you should be looking at the whole hull and keel together.  With the older IRC typeform, the Corbys, Mills etc that were pretty narrow on the waterline without a lot of form stability then a big bulb on a fin was obviously the way to go and still is.  Nobody is putting new slab keels on those boats.  When you add in a load of form stability, and you're not in the game of saving every last kilo like a sportsboat or IMOCA etc, then suddenly a reduction in drag looks like a good gain for a small loss in righting moment.  Especially if the boat ends up actually faster in the light and downwind as a result.  

 

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Guys, the irc rule has no credit for bad design.

So probably the NA, miffy and flaming get the choclates?

Lets see!

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I’m over buying boats that kowtow to the latest rule. As Alcatraz mentioned, building slow boats that rate slower is not for all of us.

And I don’t miss IRC one bit. 

 

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Maybe the only 'rule obedience here is no bulb.

If you look closely at the light air pics, no transom drag, in fact respectable clearance at maybe 6 knots B.s.

And hard downhill, the aft hollow reduces drag...by less extreme bow up.

If anyone can explain the cl bow hollow, please do so.

But we can bet the heeled bow waterline is dead straight?

 

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Sorry guys, my bad, it's new so it is awesome and the best boat ever launched. I don't know what I was thinking. 

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15 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

Sorry guys, my bad, it's new so it is awesome and the best boat ever launched. I don't know what I was thinking. 

2700 posts and still learning!

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On 3/28/2019 at 6:52 AM, shaggybaxter said:

I’m over buying boats that kowtow to the latest rule. As Alcatraz mentioned, building slow boats that rate slower is not for all of us.

And I don’t miss IRC one bit. 

 

All due respect Shaggy - you know how much I love the Pogo 30/36/12.50s, but the JPKs and Sunfast 3600s are not really slower across the range of conditions...

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4 hours ago, Miffy said:

All due respect Shaggy - you know how much I love the Pogo 30/36/12.50s, but the JPKs and Sunfast 3600s are not really slower across the range of conditions...

G'day Miffy,

I agree with you mate, I probaly didn't explain myself very well. BTW,  I have a soft spot for JPK as much as Pogo, dunno why, I think I just like their attitude to it all, and I wish every success to them and Jenneau.

My badly worded point is I find it sad to see yacht designers investing such effort into kowtowing to a rule, when you know they can build it better boat without it. And htat the rule class will change eventually leaving a bunch of orphaned boats that coulda been special. Mind you , I bitched about IOR and AMS too!   

 Regards the Sunfast 3600's, we've two in the local fleet now which has been fantastic. To date neither have come close to us in any conditions, windward work, reaching or off the wind, in any of the races.

I'm hoping its just an aberration, as I love seeing them out.    

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On 3/19/2019 at 2:54 AM, kenex said:

Here we have it..

Love the deck. This one comes with alu mast instead of carbon. It seems that it doesn’t have sail drive which seems strange these days. Any ideas?

the convexity in the bow is pretty pronounced, I want to see how it performs. At first sight it is awesome.

45A140E6-6981-4ED6-9F3F-7E2770F4A692.jpeg

 

 

Yeh those raised jib tracks are going to be fantastic. Bow will have to wear steel-capped boots if he wants functioning toes.  They could at least have sunk a channel in the deck mould.

Ditto the knitted web of purchases and blocks on the deck and the second front hatch.

 

(ps: I think you meant concavity in the bow)

 

 

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All these boats look good to me... for taking care of keen ameteurs on adventure type races - I'm surprised it took so long for the bigger builders to understand that single and dh was one of the last growing mkts.  Regards the Nivelt 34 - I can't find any info?

There are already quite a few 3200's for sale in Europe - maybe some will come stateside. Not the most exciting ride but takes care of the codgers pulling the strings. All mentioned are built to a rule - IRC is what currently flies so there you go.  Not sure what I would change in a jpk1010 even without a rule....but hey I get to find out since he was beaten by the bepox (which is for sale by the way) and has decided to build a slightly less well-rounded boat ie a tiny bit biased to downwind I think?. Can't wait to see it.

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Yep, its interesting that the boast catering to short handed sailing seems to be an increasing market. Bless the smaller shops for having the balls to start the whole gig, and bless the bigger shops for the clout they can bring in the design and engineering space. 

And I argue that most of these sh/dh designs you can throw a few more crew on for beer can racing just fine.

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