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World Sailing Needs Some Competition

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Let's start a new organization from scratch. Its mission should prioritize restoring common sense to our sport. Priorities:

Wrting racing rules from scratch using plain English.

Re-engineering Junior Sailing to prioritize seamanship, independence and a love for the act of Sailing.

Term limits for all elected leadership

Promoting one big boat handicap system for all non Gran Prix racing.

Both US and World Sailing are beyond repair. We desperately need to start over.

 

 

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We could even call it something sensible.... like international sailing association federation. 

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5 minutes ago, gesail1 said:

Wrting racing rules from scratch using plain English.

 

They are already in plain English.

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41 minutes ago, SaylurMaine said:

They are already in plain English.

They could add drawings in different colors and smiley faces 

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21 minutes ago, VWAP said:

They could add drawings in different colors and smiley faces 

Thet woude be nice!                 :)

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I don;t know how anyone could say racing rules are written in plain English! Does this look like plain English??

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

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2 hours ago, gesail1 said:

Let's start a new organization from scratch. Its mission should prioritize restoring common sense to our sport. Priorities:

Wrting racing rules from scratch using plain English.

Re-engineering Junior Sailing to prioritize seamanship, independence and a love for the act of Sailing.

Term limits for all elected leadership

Promoting one big boat handicap system for all non Gran Prix racing.

Both US and World Sailing are beyond repair. We desperately need to start over.

 

 

Let's start with US Sailing and then move up. agree with everything else except rewriting rules. Rules are always going to be a bit complicated no matter the sport. They actually are less complicated than they used to be , mast line anyone ?

It is time for a revolution !! US Sailing has got to go !

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14 minutes ago, gesail1 said:

I don;t know how anyone could say racing rules are written in plain English! Does this look like plain English??

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

...this confuses you? This is one of the more simple rules.

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2 hours ago, gesail1 said:

Let's start a new organization from scratch. Its mission should prioritize restoring common sense to our sport. Priorities:

Wrting racing rules from scratch using plain English.

Re-engineering Junior Sailing to prioritize seamanship, independence and a love for the act of Sailing.

Term limits for all elected leadership

Promoting one big boat handicap system for all non Gran Prix racing.

Both US and World Sailing are beyond repair. We desperately need to start over.

 

 

Umm.. that's pretty much what the RYA aspires to, apart from the term limits....

The rules are already in plain English, as far as is possible for a quasi legal description of a complex environment...

The RYA Young Sailor scheme is intended for just that (though there is a racing track you can take if preferred). The performance pathway is not closely aligned. 

There is relatively new RYA scheme for club racing "National Handicap for Cruisers" which is intended to cover a good chunk of your non GP racing. I don't know how well it works... I haven't raced my cruiser and if I did it would be under CYCA, a local scheme used around the Clyde, focused on simplicity.

 Maybe take a leaf out of their book and adapt it to suit your needs, addressing some of their problems along the way...? No need to reinvent the wheel, after all. 

Cheers,

               W.

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The split must occur right at this line:

Professional Sailing = US Sailing & World Sailing

Amateur Sailing = New World Order

If you don't understand that sailing is operated for the pro's (AC, Olympics, ex-Volvo, etc.) and is not run for the little guy, you need to bone up quickly and understand why things have become what they are. It's the perverse amount of money at the high end that is killing things (or better said, the tail is wagging the dog).

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1 minute ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

The split must occur right at this line:

Professional Sailing = US Sailing & World Sailing

Amateur Sailing = New World Order

If you don't understand that sailing is operated for the pro's (AC, Olympics, ex-Volvo, etc.) and is not run for the little guy, you need to bone up quickly and understand why things have become what they are. It's the perverse amount of money at the high end that is killing things (or better said, the tail is wagging the dog).

Actually, sailing is operated by WS to control and profit off of the pro's.  WS just does it very badly.

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Totally agree with Mr. McCarthy.

In the old days (say prior to late 1980s), pros and amateurs raced against each other harmoniously. Pros, which consisted predominantly of marine industry employees, weren't paid to race but received payments in kind if they helped their clients win by selling say more sails or electronics. Pro teams were somewhat better than amateurs but weren't paid to sail and therefore had day jobs outside of sailing that took away from time to practice, etc.. Amateurs could beat pros from time to time. Now pros practice and race almost exclusively and are therefore much better than amateurs.

Alas, our sport has reached a point long achieved by all others: pros are too good for amateurs to compete against anymore. Thus amateurs need a separate organization tailored exclusively to their needs. 

I believe a new organization must approach the amateur sport of sailboat racing with a far more simplistic set of rules that are not designed to address marginal scenarios but primary circumstances (port starboard/barging, etc.). Amateurs don't have the time or frankly the motivation to understand all of the nuances/complexities of our sport. Think pick up basketball and after work baseball games. Moreover the complexity adds to the significant intimidation factors that already creates too many barriers to enter our sport.   The organization also must accept the fact that the amateur sport of sailboat racing is in systemic decline and therefore needs to promote a more relaxed, fun comes first approach that has a far better likelihood to succeed.

The credibility of our handicap systems have declined, in part because we have too many choices and little to no consensus. IOR may have been a bad rule mechanically, but it was the only rule and it experienced tremendous success in terms of participation and close racing for nearly 20 years.

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4 hours ago, gesail1 said:

I believe a new organization must approach the amateur sport of sailboat racing with a far more simplistic set of rules that are not designed to address marginal scenarios but primary circumstances (port starboard/barging, etc.). Amateurs don't have the time or frankly the motivation to understand all of the nuances/complexities of our sport. Think pick up basketball and after work baseball games. Moreover the complexity adds to the significant intimidation factors that already creates too many barriers to enter our sport.  

Baseball is a great example, there are many levels of play from pro, through serious amateur leagues, rec leagues, to pickup.

They all pretty much use the same rules, the difference is more that people at different levels treat the rules with different levels of seriousness. In a pickup game if a runner doesn't slide into a plate  and hits a defensive player , no-one gets out the rulebook to determine who is in the right, most of the players there are more than capable of having a good argument about it, but generally there is more concern about safety.

This doesn't mean that they are playing by different rules, and certainly if someone who shows up to a pickup game and then regularly crashes through defensive players (or for that matter defensive players who block the plate when the do not have the ball) will get called out for it.

In Sailing we already do this. On a low key weds night race major fouls get called out, and anyone who repeatedly ignores or breaks the rules will get called out. But minor stuff is frequently ignored, and the more confusing stuff is somtimes just a thing to talk about afterwards.

On the other hand if I show up to a North American Championship regatta, I'm expecting to play by the same rules as are used at the top level of the sport.   In the same way more serious leagues will reference the MLB rules in their rules (see https://www.cnmsbl.com/pages/content.cfm?contentAlias=rulesPage for example) In effect the rules published for the league are the SI's or NOR showing modifications to the MLB rules.

No-one complains about baseball, not because the rules are less complicated, but because generally an umpire will make a ruling and you move on.

No-one refuses to play pickup games because they aren't sure they properly understand the infield fly rule, or the detail of a balk. They just go on and play, and if they get something wrong accept that they just learned a new thing.

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19 hours ago, gesail1 said:

Totally agree with Mr. McCarthy.

In the old days (say prior to late 1980s), pros and amateurs raced against each other harmoniously. Pros, which consisted predominantly of marine industry employees, weren't paid to race but received payments in kind if they helped their clients win by selling say more sails or electronics. Pro teams were somewhat better than amateurs but weren't paid to sail and therefore had day jobs outside of sailing that took away from time to practice, etc.. Amateurs could beat pros from time to time. Now pros practice and race almost exclusively and are therefore much better than amateurs.

Alas, our sport has reached a point long achieved by all others: pros are too good for amateurs to compete against anymore. Thus amateurs need a separate organization tailored exclusively to their needs. 

I believe a new organization must approach the amateur sport of sailboat racing with a far more simplistic set of rules that are not designed to address marginal scenarios but primary circumstances (port starboard/barging, etc.). Amateurs don't have the time or frankly the motivation to understand all of the nuances/complexities of our sport. Think pick up basketball and after work baseball games. Moreover the complexity adds to the significant intimidation factors that already creates too many barriers to enter our sport.   The organization also must accept the fact that the amateur sport of sailboat racing is in systemic decline and therefore needs to promote a more relaxed, fun comes first approach that has a far better likelihood to succeed. 

The credibility of our handicap systems have declined, in part because we have too many choices and little to no consensus. IOR may have been a bad rule mechanically, but it was the only rule and it experienced tremendous success in terms of participation and close racing for nearly 20 years.

Nah.

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Much of this animosity towards pros is BS. The sailing industry is run by capitalists who want to make money in the business. This includes sailmakers, equipment specialists and sailors for hire. If these people didn't exist where would we find our sails and equipment? People who love something often try to make money from doing that thing. I know wood workers who sell their work for profit and painters who do the same. I can make a table myself or paint a picture but it would be a lot worse.  How are professional sailors different? They love sailing and are good enough to find people to pay them to do it. Just as there are millions of people paying tennis every week only a few make a living doing it. I could try to make the Aussie Open as an amateur but would get about 15 minutes into a match before loosing. Same with sailing against pro sailors.

As far as setting up another sanctioning organization for pros and amateurs, it would be very difficult to separate them. How can a regatta organizer turn down someone willing to pay the entry fee? Refusing entries would make regattas less competitive. Often these regattas would loose money and therefore no would continue to run them. As a competitor, I want to say I beat the best when I win something. (I never win.) Do amateurs (or pros) want an asterisk next to their names in a results posting?

Flame away folks!

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5 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Often these regattas would loose money and therefore no would continue to run them.

Regattas make money?

Thats funny !!!!

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On 12/11/2018 at 6:32 AM, VWAP said:

They could add drawings in different colors and smiley faces 

Looking for my old rules book with waterproof cover and those little plastic boats and marks.

 

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22 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Much of this animosity towards pros is BS. The sailing industry is run by capitalists who want to make money in the business. This includes sailmakers, equipment specialists and sailors for hire. If these people didn't exist where would we find our sails and equipment? People who love something often try to make money from doing that thing. I know wood workers who sell their work for profit and painters who do the same. I can make a table myself or paint a picture but it would be a lot worse.  How are professional sailors different? They love sailing and are good enough to find people to pay them to do it. Just as there are millions of people paying tennis every week only a few make a living doing it. I could try to make the Aussie Open as an amateur but would get about 15 minutes into a match before loosing. Same with sailing against pro sailors.

As far as setting up another sanctioning organization for pros and amateurs, it would be very difficult to separate them. How can a regatta organizer turn down someone willing to pay the entry fee? Refusing entries would make regattas less competitive. Often these regattas would loose money and therefore no would continue to run them. As a competitor, I want to say I beat the best when I win something. (I never win.) Do amateurs (or pros) want an asterisk next to their names in a results posting?

Flame away folks!

You need to get out more.

When the Stars were in the Olympics, and the Bacardi was an "open" event, the difference between the pros and amateurs were this: The pro's all had coaches and coach boats. These boats carried the alternate set of sails, towed the Star out and in, ran around the entire course with 15 minutes before the start taking wind readings, some even carried a spare mast. At the end of the day these were all towed in at high speed, when us amateurs got to the dock, the dock was covered with coach boats and there was no room for us to tie up. What these pros got was not get tired sailing in and out and were fresh to race, their sails weren't getting worn sailing in and out, and at the last minute they could pick their light or heavy air sails.  One team purportedly was getting $1M a year from their government to campaign their two boats, one left in the States, one left in Europe and sailed something like 340 days a year.

World Sailing gets more than 3/4 of their income from the professional Olympics. The Racing Rules are designed solely for the Olympics, there are many rules that do not need to be there for weekend amateur sailing.  While most don't see this point, this is one (of many) that grinds me - The rules allow contact between boats, if minor a boat can spin. Well that is all fine and dandy for windsurfers, and centerboard boats that sail in the Olympics.  And they will not change this rule. It is absolutely ludicrous to let 40' keelboats have contact with one another. It is dangerous with the forces involved that causes large damage, and can easily crush arms or legs that get caught in between.  Clearly this rule is for the Olympics, it is not for amateur sailing.

The change to RRS 69 this year was caused by an incident at the America's Cup. Now you can be tossed out for having passed gas at the wrong moment.

The rules get updated/changed every 4 years (on the Olympic cycle of course), the experts will tell you that most of the changes (like 95%) are brought about by the professionals who look at the once in millions situation and point out that the rules don't work in that situation.

I like to use the word "mindset." The sport today is built on the mindset of the Olympic model. Judges and Race Officers are certified using the Olympic model.  This creates a bigger pool of judges and race officers to choose from to run the Olympics. But let's look at the results for amateur racing.  It is dying. Some have predicted amateur racing will be gone in 10 years (except for the major events, that will see a bit of reduction).  You see, it's ok to let amateur racing die, we don't fund World Sailing, professional sailing does. They have no interest in developing a new mindset, one that causes amateur racing to grow.

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Tom Shields, Michael Andrew, Katinka Hosszu Sue FINA for Antitrust Violations

On behalf of elite swimmers around the world, the plaintiffs charge FINA with unlawfully restraining competition in the market for top-tier international swimming competitions. Their lawsuit follows FINA’s crackdown against a two day competition that a new professional league planned to sponsor in Turin, Italy, in late December 2018. Organizers were forced to cancel that meet after FINA said it would ban from the Olympics any swimmer who swam in it. As result, swimmers lost the chance to compete for more prize money and were blocked from earning appearance fees.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/tom-shields-michael-andrew-katinka-hosszu-sue-fina-for-antitrust-violations/

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

.  One team purportedly was getting $1M a year from their government to campaign their two boats, one left in the States, one left in Europe and sailed something like 340 days 

Peter Bromby?

Scheidt?

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11 hours ago, Rum Runner said:

Much of this animosity towards pros is BS. The sailing industry is run by capitalists who want to make money in the business. This includes sailmakers, equipment specialists and sailors for hire. If these people didn't exist where would we find our sails and equipment? People who love something often try to make money from doing that thing. I know wood workers who sell their work for profit and painters who do the same. I can make a table myself or paint a picture but it would be a lot worse.  How are professional sailors different? They love sailing and are good enough to find people to pay them to do it. Just as there are millions of people paying tennis every week only a few make a living doing it. I could try to make the Aussie Open as an amateur but would get about 15 minutes into a match before loosing. Same with sailing against pro sailors.

As far as setting up another sanctioning organization for pros and amateurs, it would be very difficult to separate them. How can a regatta organizer turn down someone willing to pay the entry fee? Refusing entries would make regattas less competitive. Often these regattas would loose money and therefore no would continue to run them. As a competitor, I want to say I beat the best when I win something. (I never win.) Do amateurs (or pros) want an asterisk next to their names in a results posting?

Flame away folks!

How many people run regattas where the difference between success and financial failure depends on the entry fees from a small number of pro sailors?

Isn't it apparent from the success of the amateur-only classes that most people would rather enter a regatta where they aren't up against full-time pros?

If you never win, then you may not understand the situation of people who sometimes win but know that no matter how hard they try to fit sailing into a normal life with a career, it's all but hopeless to try to beat a full time pro. How many people want to dedicate large amounts of money, time and effort to a hopeless cause?  Why go out after work two days a week, hit the gym one day and race two days on the weekend when you know you will be unable to compete with the people who sail six days a week?  

As far as the viability of the industry goes, if people have no hope of winning because there are too many pros then many people will not buy new sails or new boats - why bother if you're going to get flogged anyway? And the industry is the tail, not the dog. Without amateurs and volunteers, there is no sport and no industry. They should listen to the people on which they depend.

All sport is about introducing limits. Sometimes the limit is to give older people a chance, as in Masters competitions. Sometimes it's to locals a chance, as in regional competitions. Sometimes it's to give light people a chance, as in featherweight boxing. Sometimes the limit is on gear, like limiting supermaxis to 100 ft or making everyone sail a Laser. Sometimes the limit is on whether you can practise full time or not, as in racing for amateurs.  When even events like Formula One and the America's Cup have restrictions on training time, why can't other events?

There's no asterix against your name if you beat a hot bunch of amateurs, just as there is no asterix against your name if you beat all the Lightweights in rowing, all the 50 year olds in a Masters competition, all the Italians in an Italian championship, or all the J/24 sailors in a J championship. You beat everyone who qualified to race within the limits.

I've been chucked out of racing because of amateur restrictions, and I'm not good enough to beat the real pros or even top amateurs. So what; it's better that some of us don't get to race sometimes than for a large number of people to drop out because they have no chance. When you work in the industry you get more opportunities to get better than people who don't, and it's reasonable to place limits on you just as it's reasonable to place limits on people in Masters competitions even if some 30 year olds are slower, fatter and less fit than some 50 year olds.

 

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1. The rules are written in plain English, maybe just not "Merican!" English.
2. In the English written rules, we have amateur and pro statuses clearly defined, as well as guidelines for Regatta managers as to how to define eligibility for an event.

So if you enter an event that is open to pro teams, it's probably within reason that the pro teams will outperform you or maybe others. That's why they are pros! That being said, you are entering an event with full knowledge that you will be competing against pro teams. Don't want to sail against pro teams? Pick another event/class. Pretty simple right?

I personally don't mind the idea of sailing in the mix with pro teams. There is a lot to learn from following their transoms. Last time I checked we are a pretty unique sport in these regards. Can you Wednesday night golf league pack up their gear for the weekend and go play the Masters? Well, we can do that in sailing and we should be cautious to preserve but moderate that rather than throwing up the "Revolt" flag.

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I'm not against pros. I'm against World Sailing and its obsession with Olympic Sailing, complex racing rules and money. I think we need a reset. I do not think WS or US Sailing can deliver the extensive change our sport needs.

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I don't see that WS has any significant impact on my sailing or racing.

In the same way I don't see that FIVB has any significant impact on participation in my local volleyball league. No-one playing rec or club league volleyball is complaining that the FIVB is too obsessed with the olympics. No-one participating in local league baseball is upset that the MLB is spending all its time an effort trying to increase TV ratings.

You want you class or club to attract more sailors to racing, you should be looking at local or class solutions.

Seriously how will a reset of WS impact your club/class's ability to attracts sailors?

 

 

 

 

 

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Because WS is promoting an elitist vision of the sport. Look at the latest WS video. In half an hour, there's only a few seconds of the sort of boat the average person could afford. The message to the average person is clear - fuck off.

At least some of WS's member national sailing authorities have the same attitude. Wanna race a cruiser/racer seriously around here and you pay thousands to get a rating cert because the national authority has the same "fuck off unless you want to spend a bazillion" attitude that WS is displaying. And if you do look at class and local solutions, and find money to create a training fleet and train your kids, you get an elitist national authority coming in, skimming off the best ones for squads, burning them out and then throwing them away because as their own staff says, they don't care about local sailing and just want to get one male and one female to the youth worlds.

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I can see only two ways the rules could be significantly simplified.

The first would be to make them more like colregs, and prohibit close quarters manouvers.

The second would be to introduce no fault collisions for complex situations.

Would either of those be an improvement?

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On 12/14/2018 at 9:40 PM, Curious said:

Because WS is promoting an elitist vision of the sport. Look at the latest WS video. In half an hour, there's only a few seconds of the sort of boat the average person could afford. The message to the average person is clear - fuck off.

At least some of WS's member national sailing authorities have the same attitude. Wanna race a cruiser/racer seriously around here and you pay thousands to get a rating cert because the national authority has the same "fuck off unless you want to spend a bazillion" attitude that WS is displaying. And if you do look at class and local solutions, and find money to create a training fleet and train your kids, you get an elitist national authority coming in, skimming off the best ones for squads, burning them out and then throwing them away because as their own staff says, they don't care about local sailing and just want to get one male and one female to the youth worlds.

Where are you based? The fees for rating certificates where I have taken a look don't seem to be in the thousands, but I'm probably missing something. The choice of rating system is typically within the control of the fleet racing and seldom imposed by the national governing body.

As for training kids, what you say is true of every sport. I believe that its up to the parents to make rational judgements about what is appropriate for their child, and the way sports seem to operate now tends to skim off the better kids and set them down a narrow track with only a limited number of outlets at the top. I see this as a collective failure, not the fault of the governing bodies.

 

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"World Sailing Needs Some Competition" implies more than one governing body. For a while I competed in a sport with more than one governing body and it was shit. If anyone thinks there are issues with rules observance and knowledge now, try a sport where there are multiple conflicting rule-sets. Competition for World Sailing, no thanks. Reform, yes, I don't much like quite a few recent decisions or the labyrinthine processes through which the decisions were made.

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On 12/18/2018 at 1:43 AM, JohnMB said:

Where are you based? The fees for rating certificates where I have taken a look don't seem to be in the thousands, but I'm probably missing something. The choice of rating system is typically within the control of the fleet racing and seldom imposed by the national governing body.

As for training kids, what you say is true of every sport. I believe that its up to the parents to make rational judgements about what is appropriate for their child, and the way sports seem to operate now tends to skim off the better kids and set them down a narrow track with only a limited number of outlets at the top. I see this as a collective failure, not the fault of the governing bodies.

 

In Australia, the national body decided many years ago that RORC and UNCL, who designed IRC to be an owner-measured rule, were idiots. YA in its wisdom decreed that only Endorsed certificates were to be allowed and that boats had to be weighed. When I've enquired, the costs ran $300+ certificate fee + $150 test cert (to work out if you were ball park with your configuration) + over $500 crane hire + several hundred load cell hire + measurer's fees, which vary. So actually I should have said "over a thousand".  Costs can be lowered where clubs organise several boats to be weighed at a time, but that's not all that common.

From the perspective of someone running a Farr 40 or TP52 it's child's play. For the guys at my clubs, who include shopkeepers with 26 footers and old age pensioners with 23 footers, it's way too much. So out of our fleet of 25 or so active boats I think there's one boat with an IRC certificate. Of course, that means that it's not worth guys like me getting a certificate for the new boat, because we have only one boat to play with and no chance of getting any more. That's a very different situation to the UK, where you can measure your own boat for club racing, or the USA, France and other areas where you turn up with a Catalina 320 and they say "here's your rating, that will be $25". 

The same mentality runs through to regatta organisers a lot of the time. The local IRC championship ban boats that would be slower than around 160 PHRF, has no entry that would rate slower than about 68 PHRF, and even in the small division there are boats that rate as fast as a Farr 40 OD so even if you turned up with with a slower boat you'd be out of the back door and have no one to play with on the water. They provide no alternative rating system for smaller boats. The message is clear - only fast boats race seriously. 

The result is that in Australia racer/cruisers under 40 ft generally have no alternative but to just race on golf handicap where the good sailors get slammed and there's no incentive to sail better. In many areas if you want to really get good racing under anything but golf handicap with a racer/cruiser keelboat, you have to buy a boat that would rate in the 60s or better under PHRF, and that's a shitload of money. Allowing that state of affairs to exist is elitist, and it didn't happen years ago. The CYCA used to have more boats under 32 ft than over it in their offshore racing fleet, and they used to specifically encourage and subsidise 30 foot half tonners. The scene has changed dramatically from the days when schoolteachers and carpenters could own competitive Hobart racers.

You may be right to say that it's a collective failure to allow kids to get skimmed off, but how does a club stop it? 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

In Australia, the national body decided many years ago that RORC and UNCL, who designed IRC to be an owner-measured rule, were idiots. YA in its wisdom decreed that only Endorsed certificates were to be allowed and that boats had to be weighed. When I've enquired, the costs ran $300+ certificate fee + $150 test cert (to work out if you were ball park with your configuration) + over $500 crane hire + several hundred load cell hire + measurer's fees, which vary. So actually I should have said "over a thousand".  Costs can be lowered where clubs organise several boats to be weighed at a time, but that's not all that common.

From the perspective of someone running a Farr 40 or TP52 it's child's play. For the guys at my clubs, who include shopkeepers with 26 footers and old age pensioners with 23 footers, it's way too much. So out of our fleet of 25 or so active boats I think there's one boat with an IRC certificate. Of course, that means that it's not worth guys like me getting a certificate for the new boat, because we have only one boat to play with and no chance of getting any more. That's a very different situation to the UK, where you can measure your own boat for club racing, or the USA, France and other areas where you turn up with a Catalina 320 and they say "here's your rating, that will be $25". 

The same mentality runs through to regatta organisers a lot of the time. The local IRC championship ban boats that would be slower than around 160 PHRF, has no entry that would rate slower than about 68 PHRF, and even in the small division there are boats that rate as fast as a Farr 40 OD so even if you turned up with with a slower boat you'd be out of the back door and have no one to play with on the water. They provide no alternative rating system for smaller boats. The message is clear - only fast boats race seriously. 

The result is that in Australia racer/cruisers under 40 ft generally have no alternative but to just race on golf handicap where the good sailors get slammed and there's no incentive to sail better. In many areas if you want to really get good racing under anything but golf handicap with a racer/cruiser keelboat, you have to buy a boat that would rate in the 60s or better under PHRF, and that's a shitload of money. Allowing that state of affairs to exist is elitist, and it didn't happen years ago. The CYCA used to have more boats under 32 ft than over it in their offshore racing fleet, and they used to specifically encourage and subsidise 30 foot half tonners. The scene has changed dramatically from the days when schoolteachers and carpenters could own competitive Hobart racers.

You may be right to say that it's a collective failure to allow kids to get skimmed off, but how does a club stop it? 

 

 

 

Start your own club or whatever and tell everyone to fuck right off with their measurement rules. If aussies are supposed to be such tough cunts I’ve never understood why you all cower in the corner to some group that claims power over your fun.

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How do we tell someone to fuck off about their way of administering IRC when the people who run the rule tell us we have to go through Yachting Australia to get our certificate, and the regatta organisers say they won't allow small IRC boats to race?

I've looked at getting ORC Club running around here, but due to the YA's attitude it's better that I spend my time running small OD clubs and classes. 

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47 minutes ago, Curious said:

How do we tell someone to fuck off about their way of administering IRC when the people who run the rule tell us we have to go through Yachting Australia to get our certificate, and the regatta organisers say they won't allow small IRC boats to race?

I've looked at getting ORC Club running around here, but due to the YA's attitude it's better that I spend my time running small OD clubs and classes. 

Just copy IRC. It’s what the Chinese do for everything. 

Run your own regattas. 

 

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11 hours ago, Curious said:

The same mentality runs through to regatta organisers a lot of the time. The local IRC championship ban boats that would be slower than around 160 PHRF, has no entry that would rate slower than about 68 PHRF, and even in the small division there are boats that rate as fast as a Farr 40 OD so even if you turned up with with a slower boat you'd be out of the back door and have no one to play with on the water. They provide no alternative rating system for smaller boats. The message is clear - only fast boats race seriously.

It seems a little unreasonable to blame world sailing for this.

Why would a regatta refuse any entries? If you can get 2-3 people in the right racing band why would they not take your money and set up a suitable division?

I can understand why the IRC championship would not use an alternative rating system, but there is nothing to stop your club just creating its own club handicap and using that.

Maybe try to set up a regatta for all those other boats and see what happens, I can see several possible outcomes,

-Everyone thanks you for getting the problem fixed and you have a great regatta.

-You find out some structural issue created by world sailing that makes it impossible

-You find out some unrelated reason that makes it impossible.

-No one shows up.

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11 hours ago, Curious said:

You may be right to say that it's a collective failure to allow kids to get skimmed off, but how does a club stop it?

I think its rally hard to stop this happening, my main point was that I don't think you can lay this problem at world sailing's door.

In Australia from what I understand it happens in most sports, its probably a combination of the way elite sports programs are administered in Australia and the aspirations of parents and young athletes.

It happens in other countries too, in any elite program there is a drive to push athletes to achieve the highest levels of performance, its pretty hard to ask an athlete to turn this off when they get a chance to compete for a state, region or nation. Its possible to run programs that are not aimed at 'elite' performance, and they are less likely to be at risk from having athletes 'skimmed off', (in part because parents (and kids) will have chosen them because they want a more balanced approach than the elite programs and will be less susceptible to the draw of the national squad.) But these programs are a tough sell in an environment where winning is the goal.

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John - I didn't 'blame world sailing'. I said WS had an elitist attitude and that "At least some of WS's member national sailing authorities have the same attitude." That is not saying that WS is to blame for my NA's attitude.

However, WS calls itself the "governing body" of the sport and if you choose to govern, you have to take some responsibility. When they lead with things such as a World Sailing show that spends 30 minutes on exotic classes that very, very few people can afford and only about .25 minutes on classes the typical sailor can afford, they are reinforcing the elitist image of the sport and their own elitism.

As far as telling me to run my own regatta, as noted in an earlier reply I have spent years running a class association (with success) and involved with local clubs. I don't have to run events for every class to earn the right to point out a significant change in attitude from a governing body that takes my dues. If they are going to demand money from racing sailors and clubs (as they do) they should not then act against their interests by things such as running championships that exclude the vast majority of craft that would be eligible in other regions. If the USA, France, NZ, England, Germany and the Scandinavian countries (among others) can run a simple cheap rating system and not exclude small boats, why can't Australia?  

 

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

John - I didn't 'blame world sailing'. I said WS had an elitist attitude and that "At least some of WS's member national sailing authorities have the same attitude." That is not saying that WS is to blame for my NA's attitude.

However, WS calls itself the "governing body" of the sport and if you choose to govern, you have to take some responsibility. When they lead with things such as a World Sailing show that spends 30 minutes on exotic classes that very, very few people can afford and only about .25 minutes on classes the typical sailor can afford, they are reinforcing the elitist image of the sport and their own elitism.

As far as telling me to run my own regatta, as noted in an earlier reply I have spent years running a class association (with success) and involved with local clubs. I don't have to run events for every class to earn the right to point out a significant change in attitude from a governing body that takes my dues. If they are going to demand money from racing sailors and clubs (as they do) they should not then act against their interests by things such as running championships that exclude the vast majority of craft that would be eligible in other regions. If the USA, France, NZ, England, Germany and the Scandinavian countries (among others) can run a simple cheap rating system and not exclude small boats, why can't Australia?  

 

Because the sailors in your country let a bunch of self centered pricks run your fun. Why on earth are you waiting for a bunch of beauracrats to change? They won’t. Figure out a way to beat them into submission, or start your own rating system. Look no further than San Diego YC and their very successful Hot Rum Series. They run their own handicap system and it’s one of the biggest most fun events in SoCal every year. Might actually be the biggest regatta of the year in SoCal. 

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In case you missed the earlier replies;1 - I've done my bit running racing, I'm still helping to run racing, so I don't have to run everything in the sport myself, especially when I'm fairly sure that we will meet opposition from AS which will make it harder; 

2- we pay them to help us, therefore they should help the typical sailor and run a cheap rating system for the most popular type in the country like so like so many other NAs do. We are allowed to say when those we pay do not do their job.

3-The Hot Rum series says it uses PHRF ratings as a base. We are probably the only major sailing nation that has no such system. The Hot Rum series ratings are an example of what AS should be doing, but is not.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Curious said:

In case you missed the earlier replies;1 - I've done my bit running racing, I'm still helping to run racing, so I don't have to run everything in the sport myself, especially when I'm fairly sure that we will meet opposition from AS which will make it harder; 

2- we pay them to help us, therefore they should help the typical sailor and run a cheap rating system for the most popular type in the country like so like so many other NAs do. We are allowed to say when those we pay do not do their job.

3-The Hot Rum series says it uses PHRF ratings as a base. We are probably the only major sailing nation that has no such system. The Hot Rum series ratings are an example of what AS should be doing, but is not.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you need to forget racing sailboats then and do something else.  Go enjoy the pure act of sailing, but find another competitive outlet.

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Oh geezers......

I love sailing, all I want is for the people who run the sport here to offer something for the typical yachtie. I don't need advice on how to run my life.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Curious said:

Oh geezers......

I love sailing, all I want is for the people who run the sport here to offer something for the typical yachtie. I don't need advice on how to run my life.

 

 

I think Americans don't understand how it works in Australia. We don't have the luxury they have of being able NOT to be a member of a MNA (US Sailing in their case) and still race in regattas. We also have issues such as AS supplied rounding marks that we couldn't use if not affiliated as a club. Could one club decide to write their own rules? Possibly, but hard in Sydney Harbour for example. The Shorthanded Sailing Association of Australia had its own rules until shortly the 1998 Hobart tragedy, then Insurance (required for race organisers) became prohibitively expensive if available at all, unless you were part of YA/AS.  Not sure if the SSAA could get insurance by itself this year.

Then if you sailed for that club could you race with another, affiliated club?

I totally agree with Curious that AS, WS etc are ONLY interested in Olympic money. It's why Rule 46 in Oz states that ALL crew must be current members of AS if they race more than three times in any year, so they can boost their membership and get more money for the Olympics. They do nothing for your average club. The two biggest "sailing" clubs in Sydney have up to hundreds of times more social members than sailing members, so those clubs are about money not sailing, and yet they get far more votes within AS.

I would love to see a non-Olympic focussed group that was a lobby group for the thousands of us that race under a performance handicap. Lobbying to make sure our sport does not get run over by other interest groups, for example by cruise operators in Sydney Harbour, who want exclusive right of way, as government ferries do.

 

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I don't really see what complaints about AS or handicap systems have to do with the subject of this thread.

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30 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

I don't really see what complaints about AS or handicap systems have to do with the subject of this thread.

Of course you don’t, because you are a stiff upper lip Brit who still thinks the colonies are under your control, especially the convicts in AUS.

The simple fact is the bitching from AUS has everything to do with the thread title. Another governing body that could provide critical mass to give market assurance for insurance would be a big help to the aussies.

Best thing for the sport of sailing would be for it to be flicked from the Olympics. Without the Olympics, WS and the MNA’s have no leverage. And sure, you Brits will list lottery money and all that goes with it, but so what, plenty of people sailed in your country prior to lottery funding.

 

 

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"Another governing body that could provide critical mass to give market assurance for insurance would be a big help to the aussies."

That appears to be 100% wrong. By mccroc's account It is only the existence of the MNA that makes the risk insurable at all.

But that doesn't address my point. Neither MNA's nor issues with handicap systems are the subject of this thread as titled.

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14 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

"Another governing body that could provide critical mass to give market assurance for insurance would be a big help to the aussies."

That appears to be 100% wrong. By mccroc's account It is only the existence of the MNA that makes the risk insurable at all.

But that doesn't address my point. Neither MNA's nor issues with handicap systems are the subject of this thread as titled.

You are so pendatic. If you can’t see that a new entity on a global basis would then help support new MNA’s in other counties, there’s not much to be done to help your understanding.

The weight of these monarchy like beauracracies is what is limiting the sport of yacht racing. 

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Oh I see. I should just agree with you, without the need for any evidence or argument, because it's simply obvious. That's clear then.

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32 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Oh I see. I should just agree with you, without the need for any evidence or argument, because it's simply obvious. That's clear then.

You ought to change your screen name to dogmatic. 

Let’s ask this question: what evidence is there that WS and the MNA’s make yacht racing an easier game to play for more people?

How do the barriers to entry they have constructed help the sport grow?

 

 

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On 12/24/2018 at 6:39 AM, sunseeker said:

You ought to change your screen name to dogmatic. 

Let’s ask this question: what evidence is there that WS and the MNA’s make yacht racing an easier game to play for more people?

How do the barriers to entry they have constructed help the sport grow?

 

 

I think what puzzles me about this argument is that it assumes that WS and the MNA have constructed barriers to entry.

As for what the MNAs do to make the game easier to play. The RYA seems to do a decent job providing training schemes and certification structures and assisting in grass roots development. US sailing has issues but it has programs to develop race officers etc, which seem to be beneficial. From the AUS point, I don't know enough, but based on comments in this thread they appear to have done the following:

-provided a central body that the insurance industry can use to help control/understand risks. (based on comment above it appears that getting insurance required membership, but I may be reading this wrong)

-provide marks for racing that cannot be used by non-affiliated clubs, (again based on a comment above that clubs prefer to use the AS marks rather than their own, its not clear if there is a legal or cost restriction to prevent them placing their own marks.)

Not a lot I guess, but that's just what I can gather from the complaints about them in two posts :).

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

I think what puzzles me about this argument is that it assumes that WS and the MNA have constructed barriers to entry.

As for what the MNAs do to make the game easier to play. The RYA seems to do a decent job providing training schemes and certification structures and assisting in grass roots development. US sailing has issues but it has programs to develop race officers etc, which seem to be beneficial. From the AUS point, I don't know enough, but based on comments in this thread they appear to have done the following:

-provided a central body that the insurance industry can use to help control/understand risks. (based on comment above it appears that getting insurance required membership, but I may be reading this wrong)

-provide marks for racing that cannot be used by non-affiliated clubs, (again based on a comment above that clubs prefer to use the AS marks rather than their own, its not clear if there is a legal or cost restriction to prevent them placing their own marks.)

Not a lot I guess, but that's just what I can gather from the complaints about them in two posts :).

In the US, training race officials has gone on for decades at the club level. Everyone who ever became a good race official, in any capacity, had to have a fairly decent background in racing, and came up through the ranks in the club in essentially an apprentice-mentor system.

All US Sailing does is run done seminars and administer a test and then gives people a designation of some level of competence. The really good guys do not need that stupid certification, they were plenty good to begin with. US Sailing makes it sound like running a race is complicated. It’s not, at least for people who have actually raced with a level of competence.

 

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TBH it would proabably be easier to read the entire RRS cover to cover ten times than it would be to make a new organization in opposition to US sailing. Also there’s already ASA which most people tend to avoid in favour for US sailing so it seems the majority are already speaking and they prefer a sensible level of bureaucracy in the sport.

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On 12/12/2018 at 11:25 AM, Glenn McCarthy said:

You need to get out more.

When the Stars were in the Olympics, and the Bacardi was an "open" event, the difference between the pros and amateurs were this: The pro's all had coaches and coach boats. These boats carried the alternate set of sails, towed the Star out and in, ran around the entire course with 15 minutes before the start taking wind readings, some even carried a spare mast. At the end of the day these were all towed in at high speed, when us amateurs got to the dock, the dock was covered with coach boats and there was no room for us to tie up. What these pros got was not get tired sailing in and out and were fresh to race, their sails weren't getting worn sailing in and out, and at the last minute they could pick their light or heavy air sails.  One team purportedly was getting $1M a year from their government to campaign their two boats, one left in the States, one left in Europe and sailed something like 340 days a year.

World Sailing gets more than 3/4 of their income from the professional Olympics. The Racing Rules are designed solely for the Olympics, there are many rules that do not need to be there for weekend amateur sailing.  While most don't see this point, this is one (of many) that grinds me - The rules allow contact between boats, if minor a boat can spin. Well that is all fine and dandy for windsurfers, and centerboard boats that sail in the Olympics.  And they will not change this rule. It is absolutely ludicrous to let 40' keelboats have contact with one another. It is dangerous with the forces involved that causes large damage, and can easily crush arms or legs that get caught in between.  Clearly this rule is for the Olympics, it is not for amateur sailing.

The change to RRS 69 this year was caused by an incident at the America's Cup. Now you can be tossed out for having passed gas at the wrong moment.

The rules get updated/changed every 4 years (on the Olympic cycle of course), the experts will tell you that most of the changes (like 95%) are brought about by the professionals who look at the once in millions situation and point out that the rules don't work in that situation.

I like to use the word "mindset." The sport today is built on the mindset of the Olympic model. Judges and Race Officers are certified using the Olympic model.  This creates a bigger pool of judges and race officers to choose from to run the Olympics. But let's look at the results for amateur racing.  It is dying. Some have predicted amateur racing will be gone in 10 years (except for the major events, that will see a bit of reduction).  You see, it's ok to let amateur racing die, we don't fund World Sailing, professional sailing does. They have no interest in developing a new mindset, one that causes amateur racing to grow.

Glenn,

Im not going to suggest you get out more because I know you sail actively but picking up on some of the points made by prior posters

  • Pro sailors get to be pro-sailors because they are talented sailors dedicated to their craft. Nobody makes a living racing sailboats unless they are good at it. They are going to be tough to beat long before they are towed out to the race course (but not impossible)
  • There is a sense from this thread that Olympians are some kind of moneyed elite.  Most sailing Olympians make substantial material sacrifices over 4 or 8 years to pursue their Olympic dream.  The vast majority emerge penniless when the cycle ends.  I know and race against many Olympians, none of them got rich sailing. (Ainslie etc are the exceptions not the rule)  Typically their real jobs start after they finished their Olympic campaigns. Whether they are working as engineers, realtors or teachers they remain frustratingly difficult to beat because they are just damn good sailors.  They are a pleasure to race against and I would not like to be part of a separate game.
  • With the exception of the Laser, I have not competed in Olympic classes because.......those classes are predominantly Olympians....and Im not that good.The Star was an Olympic class for centuries. The amateur sailors getting into the Star knew what they were getting into, and most likely chose to race Stars precisely because they wanted to race at that level of competition. You cannot buy a Star and enter the Bacardi in the 1990s and then be "shocked" at the level of coaching and dedication of the competitors.
  •   You should take a second look at those rules that you dismiss as not for amateurs, in particular Rule 14

14 AVOIDING CONTACT A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.

This rule is unambiguous.  Even if you have the right of way, in the sport of sailing, if it is possible you must avoid contact.  There is almost no other sport which has this rule. In the example you quote with large 40' yachts colliding causing large damage or even injury, BOTH BOATS GET DISQUALIFIED including the right of way boat.

The one exception, is if the collision does not cause damage of injury......in which case the give way boat is disqualified and the ROW boat is exonerated.  What would you do differently for amateur racing (where there are far more collisions than Olympic sailing)? 

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On 12/24/2018 at 9:10 PM, dogwatch said:

I don't really see what complaints about AS or handicap systems have to do with the subject of this thread.

They were used as an example of the effect of elitism amongst governing bodies in the sport - an attitude that World Sailing's own PR presents. 

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2 hours ago, AvidSailor said:

TBH it would proabably be easier to read the entire RRS cover to cover ten times than it would be to make a new organization in opposition to US sailing. Also there’s already ASA which most people tend to avoid in favour for US sailing so it seems the majority are already speaking and they prefer a sensible level of bureaucracy in the sport.

ASA and US Sailing are in vastly different businesses. ASA is primarily a boat rental scheme, which leads with teaching. There is NOTHING about ASA that relates to governing or promoting the sport of yacht racing. It is a pure for profit business.    ASA is in one big way vastly better than US Sailing because the ASA program is tied directly to renting boats, US Sailing gets its level of authority from Olympic racing. Everything flows from there. The US Sailing training scheme was started firstly to serve yacht club summer sailing programs, and evolved from there.

But again, ASA has zero to do with promoting or governing yacht racing.

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8 hours ago, Curious said:

They were used as an example of the effect of elitism amongst governing bodies in the sport - an attitude that World Sailing's own PR presents. 

I don't think there is a strong argument there. it brings me back to my point that in most sports no-one complains that the international governing body is too elitist, they kind of expect that, to an extent  that is the function of the intentional governing body, to control the elite levels of the sport.

I can understand the complaints that national association doesn't do enough for the grass roots level, each country should have mechanisms in place to ensure that the national level group is adequately serving their needs; for different countries the needs may be very different, and the level of impact on the grass roots level may be very different. This is true not only for sailing but for every sport.

However i would still argue that WS has little or no impact on any clubs ability to get people out sailing, just as the FIVB has zero impact on attendance at my local YMCA's rec volleyball league. To suggest that 'elitist' ads or attitudes by WS are putting off people who would otherwise be coming to find more about sailing seems a little overblown.

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46 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I don't think there is a strong argument there. it brings me back to my point that in most sports no-one complains that the international governing body is too elitist, they kind of expect that, to an extent  that is the function of the intentional governing body, to control the elite levels of the sport.

I can understand the complaints that national association doesn't do enough for the grass roots level, each country should have mechanisms in place to ensure that the national level group is adequately serving their needs; for different countries the needs may be very different, and the level of impact on the grass roots level may be very different. This is true not only for sailing but for every sport.

However i would still argue that WS has little or no impact on any clubs ability to get people out sailing, just as the FIVB has zero impact on attendance at my local YMCA's rec volleyball league. To suggest that 'elitist' ads or attitudes by WS are putting off people who would otherwise be coming to find more about sailing seems a little overblown.

Have you read, for example, the report that Australian Sailing commissioned that covered, inter alia, people's perception of the sport?  Elitist, expensive and inaccessible were leading perceptions. It was a significant professional survey - why ignore it and its conclusions, and those of other studies on motivation factors in sports participation?  What logical reason can you give?

Using volleyball etc as a comparison ignores the elephant in the room. FIVB's media is about a game that appears to be played on the same general sort of court and the same general sort of gear that I used in junior high. It presents a more skilled bunch of people playing the same sort of game as the one your YMCA plays. WS media, on the other hand, is about a game played with gear worth millions of quid that won't work at most clubs and where most people live, and is very very different to the sport played at normal venues. FIVB promotes a game that the mass of people can play, while WS promotes a game that even most existing sailors will not.

 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Curious said:

Have you read, for example, the report that Australian Sailing commissioned that covered, inter alia, people's perception of the sport?  Elitist, expensive and inaccessible were leading perceptions. It was a significant professional survey - why ignore it and its conclusions, and those of other studies on motivation factors in sports participation?  What logical reason can you give?

Using volleyball etc as a comparison ignores the elephant in the room. FIVB's media is about a game that appears to be played on the same general sort of court and the same general sort of gear that I used in junior high. It presents a more skilled bunch of people playing the same sort of game as the one your YMCA plays. WS media, on the other hand, is about a game played with gear worth millions of quid that won't work at most clubs and where most people live, and is very very different to the sport played at normal venues. FIVB promotes a game that the mass of people can play, while WS promotes a game that even most existing sailors will not.

Again, I have no expectation that FIVB marketing has ANY affect on the number of people or teams that sign up for rec volleyball, this is more about word of mouth efforts to attract new players, and have a league which offers a level of play that people can have fun with. I don't know what FIVB's marketing looks like, but I suspect it would scare off most rec VB players who do not expect to be on the receiving end of the type of hits that are a regular feature of an international game, of course rec volleyball players also understand that there is a difference between the elite level game and what the should expect in a rec game.

I also firmly believe that the perception of sailing  as elitist, expensive and inaccessible is coming from more local influences that world sailing. How many people's first look at sailing is the WS website? for most their first impression comes from the sailing club they drive or walk past, or from a friend of colleague who takes them for a sail. In Australia I suspect that the TV spends more time showing the faster and more expensive entries to the syndey hobart, and some of the high end skiff sailing, than is does showing lower cost cruiser racers or club dinghy racing, but this is not because WS is elitist.

I'm not denying that there is a perception problem, I'm just saying that I don't think you can blame this on WS.

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On 12/26/2018 at 3:57 AM, sunseeker said:

. US Sailing makes it sound like running a race is complicated. It’s not, at least for people who have actually raced with a level of competence.

One thing I've observed is that if there's a king sized management cockup in our club racing it will be perpetrated by one of the best sailors.

This meme that competitors will always make the best administrators is bullshit. Skills are utterly different. Just because I was a brilliant IT infrastructure engineer it didn't mean I was going to be a great IT manager. Actually I was a lousy manager and gave it up...

Sure some great sailors will be great administrators, but other great sailors will be appalling...

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On 12/11/2018 at 5:44 AM, doggone said:

Let's start a new organization from scratch. Its mission should prioritize restoring common sense to our sport. Priorities:

Wrting racing rules from scratch using plain English.

Re-engineering Junior Sailing to prioritize seamanship, independence and a love for the act of Sailing.

Term limits for all elected leadership

Promoting one big boat handicap system for all non Gran Prix racing.

Both US and World Sailing are beyond repair. We desperately need to start over.

 

On 12/11/2018 at 7:53 AM, surf nazi said:

Let's start with US Sailing and then move up. agree with everything else except rewriting rules. Rules are always going to be a bit complicated no matter the sport. They actually are less complicated than they used to be , mast line anyone ?

It is time for a revolution !! US Sailing has got to go !

 

I agree, US Sailing sucks. US Sailing should be broken into at least  3 entities. There is no way the East Coast cares about the west. I can say this from my sailing in the Disabled/Paralympic shit. The East Coast control sucks. The USS coach choose sailors back east to help, even though I was way better, sailor. I asked for fund raising help and was told they do not do that. Money was all I needed to go to regattas.

Sailing should look to Car Racing. They are almost the same except Sailing is slow and boring to the public.

Equipment is expensive in both sports but a go cart for the kiddie is easier to store and transport. No club required.

Changing sailing requires the local governments to give more access to everyone., to the waterfront. But it is the people with money that control that.

It will take a long tome for sailing to change. Just look at the AC and the Deed that controls it.

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