dg_sailingfan

Stars & Stripes Team USA confirmed as 5th Challenger

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I got a bit lost navigating around it.

There isn't a lot to navigate right now :D That said, I can't wait for the Teams Public Launch next month :)

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On 12/18/2018 at 3:58 AM, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Thats a great website!

The best that money can buy.

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54 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This looks like to be the Official Twitter Account of Stars & Stripes Team USA

https://twitter.com/StarsStripesAC

If that account IS the LBYC entry, whoever runs it joined Twitter  in 2015 and (maybe) changed the name? Or in the works for years?!? Seems to have Chicago ACWS affinities.

So whose account is it? Tin hat time ;) but no blue check.

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On 12/13/2018 at 2:57 PM, Kack said:

Sailed with Buckley a bunch.  First class guy.  Hope they can get it done.  

 

Where in Holland would they put this thing together.  Doesn't look like a lot of buildings close to the water that can house a 75 footer

Hopefully this will turn out better than that time Mike Buckley tried to be a hip hop producer. He’s the whitest or white boys. 

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The ETNZ design package is "identical" to their Boat 1????  

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Confirmed, it’s the McInness/DeVos facility. Any info where the AM boat is being built?

 

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14 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Confirmed, it’s the McInness/DeVos facility. Any info where the AM boat is being built?

 

actually the facility is owned by two sailing anarchy readers— but DeVos isn’t one of ‘em.... they are American Magic, not Stars & Stripes

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3 minutes ago, 1sailor said:

actually the facility is owned by two sailing anarchy readers— but DeVos isn’t one of ‘em.... they are American Magic, not Stars & Stripes

Is that a fact? The speculation was that DeVos would be involved, what with Michigan and the large capital expenditures involved

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On 12/13/2018 at 7:09 PM, RCH said:

Here's the rub

So the America's Cup is about technology, sailing ability, teamwork, and resources. So far, what I see from this program, they bought the technology from a foreign team because they didn't have the resources or knowledge of how to put it together themselves. (The funny thing is, their "design" package" will help the challengers on some insights into what the Kiwi's are doing.) 

American Only team? Really? With a Kiwi Design Package. Sorry, copying someone else's homework will not get you an A(merica's Cup.

PS - Love to hear what sponsor or benefactor is making them build the boat in Michigan.

Think of it like NASCAR, smaller or newer teams buy chassis, engines and parts from other more established teams all the time.  They even loan out talent sometimes.  If mega-team X already has 4 cars (the team limit per NASCAR), but has Rookie X ready for a Cup ride, they may form an engineering and technical alliance with a smaller team to put Rookie X in one of "their" cars until they have an open seat on the main roster.  There's benefit for both sides.  The big team gets to see how the rookie does in a de facto 5th car and the little team gains cars, information and money.  But the end user builds the body, tweaks the aerodynamics and tunes the engine to their specs. 

ETNZ sold a base design package to Luna Rossa in AC34, Luna Rossa sold all their research and test platform to ETNZ in AC35, OTUSA sold a base design package to several teams in AC35.  It's up to S&S-TUSA to develop their own sails and foils to get the most out of the boat.  It's widely known that ETNZ has had fundraising issues over their last several campaigns, why not help out some of the newer teams with basic technical info and gain a precious commodity you've been lacking? 

Unfortunately, I'd wager the design package they bought is a 1st generation, bare bones, basic design, which ETNZ has already moved several generations beyond by now.  S&S-TUSA is going to have a steep learning curve and are starting this race from a few country miles behind.  Money and resources are a great equalizer, with enough of both, they can narrow the gap quickly.  The question is, will it be enough?

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21 minutes ago, Brutal said:

Think of it like NASCAR, smaller or newer teams buy chassis, engines and parts from other more established teams all the time.  T

Martin Truex winning the Championship a couple years ago being a prime example of a smaller team forging an alliance with a bigger team and winning it all as a result.  It can be done.

And whats the big deal with what S&S is doing?  They got the design package just for the hull correct?  A hull that shouldn't be a factor in winning the Cup because it shouldn't ever touch the water while racing.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

 

Is that a fact? The speculation was that DeVos would be involved, what with Michigan and the large capital expenditures involved

I love it.   Two posts ago you said "confirmed it's a DeVos-MacInnes facility" and now you're "speculating"...  

How could DV be involved in two competing campaigns at the same time ?       I"m the biggest DeVos fan-boy you've ever met in your lifetime for sure--- but just because you hear "Holland MI" and "sailing" dont automatically assume DV is involved, even if the builder used to run all the DV racing programs, which is no secret to anyone.

With that, I will sign off right here and leave the speculating to you guys.  It's more fun to read the made-up version :)

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

And whats the big deal with what S&S is doing?  They got the design package just for the hull correct?  A hull that shouldn't be a factor in winning the Cup because it shouldn't ever touch the water while racing.  

 

The hull being a vehicle to support foils... rigs... and it needing to go fast enough to get boat speed up to foil all seem like pretty essential things.

But your right, the hull wont be a factor at all

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4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

So they have retained Tim Smyth as consultant; Smyth ultimately works for LE, unless Smyth left Core? 

Was told by a little bird Smyth was forced out of Core by Coutts 

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I am getting tired of S&S All american stuff. They PAID money to the NZ defender to buy their way into the cup!

By paying for this package, they supported the defender.  Wrap your heads around that.

Dalts is laughing all the way to the bank.

#daltsiscrafty

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16 minutes ago, RCH said:

I am getting tired of S&S All american stuff. They PAID money to the NZ defender to buy their way into the cup!

By paying for this package, they supported the defender.  Wrap your heads around that.

Dalts is laughing all the way to the bank.

#daltsiscrafty

Oh, behave!  At least when they lose Prada Cup it will be with Real Amurricans, not Australians and Kiwis.

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5 hours ago, WetHog said:

They got the design package just for the hull correct?

I'd say it would be way more than just the hull. I'd speculate it would include the rig and appendages, and deck layout. S+S have stated they don't have an army of designers/engineers, and that would most likely include the necessary software and simulators. Without those assets, are hull on its own would leave too much to do. The only thing they may be doing from scratch might be the sails, although ETNZ might have helped there as well.

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From the Scuttlebutt article:

"As part of the team’s strategy to learn from industry experts, Stars & Stripes Team USA purchased a design package for their AC75 race yacht from Emirates Team New Zealand which immediately placed the team in a competitive position with respect to the boat build and design process for AC36.

That package included a complete design for the team’s first AC75 that is currently under construction, a design identical to ETNZ’s boat one.

Stars & Stripes Team USA also has the option to purchase an additional, basic design package for their second boat that can be modified with the team’s final race performance enhancements (under the 36th America’s Cup protocol teams are restricted to building only two AC75’s).

Throughout the build and design process, the design package also allows for Stars & Stripes Team USA designers to learn from the ETNZ design team, the same team that developed the revolutionary foiling monohull concept."

 

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36 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

From the Scuttlebutt article:

"As part of the team’s strategy to learn from industry experts, Stars & Stripes Team USA purchased a design package for their AC75 race yacht from Emirates Team New Zealand which immediately placed the team in a competitive position with respect to the boat build and design process for AC36.

That package included a complete design for the team’s first AC75 that is currently under construction, a design identical to ETNZ’s boat one.

Stars & Stripes Team USA also has the option to purchase an additional, basic design package for their second boat that can be modified with the team’s final race performance enhancements (under the 36th America’s Cup protocol teams are restricted to building only two AC75’s).

Throughout the build and design process, the design package also allows for Stars & Stripes Team USA designers to learn from the ETNZ design team, the same team that developed the revolutionary foiling monohull concept."

 

Always interesting to see how this approach goes compared to say Team UK who are doing their own design. I think it's safe to say that buying NZ's design package means you'll be competitive but can't win? Does anyone else agree with this in the real world? 

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6 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I think it's safe to say that buying NZ's design package means you'll be competitive but can't win? Does anyone else agree with these in the real world? 

I think it's a safe option - one that is comfortable with sponsors. How the off the shelf boats go compared to the others doing their own work will be interesting. It seems S+S think their "superior" sailing skills will make up for any speed deficiencies, which does go against the adage that the fastest boat always wins the AC. 

 Stars & Stripes Team USA also has the option to purchase an additional, basic design package for their second boat.

Makes me wonder how complete S+S's analysis tools will be, and how much performance and analysis data ETNZ will share with them, with respect to designing boat two. You'd think they'd hold some of that back. Being on the edge with regards to analysis software and simulation tech, would seem to be prerequisites to winning the cup. ETNZ have an edge here over teams like S+S, but as the blurb states, part of this campaign is about learning, so winning the cup might not be the ultimate goal for this team this time around. They're not going to state that publicly, but realistically they probably realise they're at the start of a big learning curve, and it will take a couple of cup cycles to get right up to speed with it.

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9 hours ago, Brutal said:

Money and resources are a great equalizer, with enough of both, they can narrow the gap quickly.  The question is, will it be enough?

Even if S+S have all their funding in place - which is doubtful, they wouldn't know where to spend, or allocate the resources. That knowledge will come after sailing and racing their first boat. At the moment their team consists of a couple of sailors, a bunch of boat builders, Braun, Finkelstein, for design and engineering, plus one guy - Baker for analysis. So they're light on design, engineering, and analysis, and will need to ramp that up eventually. Who and what type of people they add, the software tools they need, simulation tech, would be largely unknown to them at this point. Nothing wrong with their approach. No point guessing and cranking up the fixed overheads when you're not sure what you need.

Of the six challenges, I think they'd be happy to be in the top three at the end of the Prada cup, which would mean beating one of the big three (LR, Ineos & AM). In my opinion that's still a big ask, but the AC has a history of big well funded teams dropping the ball, so you never know.

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It's an interesting relationship, maybe a bit closer than LR and ETNZ in 34 with some engineering support, that part caught my eye. A bit like Japan and OR last time out?

And the sale of the second boat design is certainly thought provoking, is ETNZ so sure nothing revolutionary will evolve in the second boat that they will pre sell it? Or are they genuinely helping out the first cycle teams? Perhaps the engineering help line will be disconnected somewhere along the line?

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16 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Always interesting to see how this approach goes compared to say Team UK who are doing their own design. I think it's safe to say that buying NZ's design package means you'll be competitive but can't win? Does anyone else agree with this in the real world? 

hey terra firma- interestingly that’s the name of my real estate company here in the usa— i disagree.

especially if the eventuality is that they could build a second boat later anyhow....seems like a prudent head start for hull one for this campaign, shortens the timeline a bunch and less brain damage on getting started too!

gonna be really fun to watch a full-USA team honor the legacy of the Cup’s original intent:  a competition between Nations.

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23 hours ago, WetHog said:

Martin Truex winning the Championship a couple years ago being a prime example of a smaller team forging an alliance with a bigger team and winning it all as a result.  It can be done.

And whats the big deal with what S&S is doing?  They got the design package just for the hull correct?  A hull that shouldn't be a factor in winning the Cup because it shouldn't ever touch the water while racing.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Truex's team was an also-ran for a lot of years before Truex came onboard and won that Championship.  Yes, it can be done, but money, time and talent are the most precious resources there are in this game.  We have no idea how much money they have, time keeps ticking away, but we do have an idea of their talent.  The teams who are out testing their surrogate platforms clearly have more refinement time as they've been working on foil development for a while now.   Hopefully they have their sailing team in order and a solid foil development program.  They are way behind TNZ, LR, BAR & AM and will need to hit the water ready to make short work of what is going to be a steep, steep learning curve. 

I have no issue with them buying the base design package.  I have no idea what the base design package includes.  I would think the hull needs to be more aerodynamic than hydrodynamic as I agree with you, it shouldn't be in the water very often.  

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18 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Always interesting to see how this approach goes compared to say Team UK who are doing their own design. I think it's safe to say that buying NZ's design package means you'll be competitive but can't win? Does anyone else agree with this in the real world? 

If all you have is TNZ's base design, you're just pissing away your funding and won't be competitive at all.  The intent of the base design package is to cut out some of the base R&D time and give YOUR designers a starting point that isn't at square one.  If you have smart innovative designers, you can definitely have a shot starting from the base design package.  Keep in mind, TNZ is, most likely, several generations beyond the base design they are selling.

This is going to be just like AC35.  Whoever has the best all-around foils and can maximize flight time is going to win.  OTUSA had distinctive foils sets for narrow wind ranges.  In the sweet spot, they might have been faster than ETNZ, but their designs were for very specific conditions.  Too much wind or not enough wind and the foils just weren't as efficient.  ETNZ had foils designed for broader ranges of conditions.  The kiwi foils were more efficient in varying conditions and all OTUSA could do was sit back and watch ETNZ overhaul them and pull away down the stretch.  

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Sorry @Brutal I believe it was ETNZ's wing control which was the point of difference AC35.  There might have been some times when ETNZ's foils were better but I believe there were equal times when OR's were better.

So I believe AC36 will be won and lost on softwing control.

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9 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Sorry @Brutal I believe it was ETNZ's wing control which was the point of difference AC35.  There might have been some times when ETNZ's foils were better but I believe there were equal times when OR's were better.

So I believe AC36 will be won and lost on softwing control.

In this article, sorry for the pressreader format but I cannot get rid of it, Tim Smyth says ETNZ was better because of both foils and wing package. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/weekend-herald/20170624/281732679489216&ved=2ahUKEwjm_LXPpPjfAhVOmuAKHXmJCt8QFjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1KaNTLM2U-ZnmKl_7Wpx-h&cshid=1547847520214

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"You've got a young and vigorous team in New Zealand, a bunch of young guys who I think have choreographed the handling of that boat beautifully and they really work efficiently together"

"You'd have to put your money behind Team New Zealand at the moment with the boat speed they've shown, which seems to be coming from their foil and wing package"

Almost everyone talks about the foils, almost none about the ETNZ wing and foil controls which I actually think was the difference. particularly the wing control.

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On 1/17/2019 at 10:08 PM, 1sailor said:

I love it.   Two posts ago you said "confirmed it's a DeVos-MacInnes facility" and now you're "speculating"...  

How could DV be involved in two competing campaigns at the same time ?       I"m the biggest DeVos fan-boy you've ever met in your lifetime for sure--- but just because you hear "Holland MI" and "sailing" dont automatically assume DV is involved, even if the builder used to run all the DV racing programs, which is no secret to anyone.

With that, I will sign off right here and leave the speculating to you guys.  It's more fun to read the made-up version :)

 

I bow to your superior knowledge. You might just want to advise Tom Ehman who’s saying the same thing - see his videoconference with Richard Gladwell in the Dutch entry thread

 

 

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On 1/17/2019 at 9:08 PM, 1sailor said:

How could DV be involved in two competing campaigns at the same time ?  

There is nothing to prevent that.

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On 1/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Brutal said:

Truex's team was an also-ran for a lot of years before Truex came onboard and won that Championship.  Yes, it can be done, but money, time and talent are the most precious resources there are in this game.  We have no idea how much money they have, time keeps ticking away, but we do have an idea of their talent.  The teams who are out testing their surrogate platforms clearly have more refinement time as they've been working on foil development for a while now.   Hopefully they have their sailing team in order and a solid foil development program.  They are way behind TNZ, LR, BAR & AM and will need to hit the water ready to make short work of what is going to be a steep, steep learning curve. 

I have no issue with them buying the base design package.  I have no idea what the base design package includes.  I would think the hull needs to be more aerodynamic than hydrodynamic as I agree with you, it shouldn't be in the water very often.  

FRR started showing potential when Kurt Busch drove for the team for a year and half and when Truex came on board, with his entire team from MWR, they started to realize that potential.  But it didn't become a championship level team until it aligned with a championship level organization in JGR.  Anyway, not the place for NASCAR talk.

You are correct, the teams practicing with surrogates are the ones with the best chance to successfully challenge ETNZ for the Cup.  S&S, save for a miracle, are looking to seriously compete in the next Cup cycle if they survive past AC36.

WetHog  :ph34r:   

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3 hours ago, Priscilla said:

About time.

Wonder how many other teams will include females on the boat.

Dutch will have a female skipper Carolijn Brouwer.

The first woman to compete in the Cup actual.

 

ummm America3  (Bill Koch), female crew and Lesley Egnot helm

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wasn't Leslie Egnot from NZ first, in 95 on Mighty Mary ?

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Canfield will be sailing in Sydney in 10 days with SailGP

 https://www.foxsports.com/other/story/america-s-cup-helmsman-canfield-joins-us-sailgp-team-020419

 

 

Wasn't Canfield in the original US/GP team, from before the Stars/Stripe team was announced?

Listening to him glorifying the Sail GP, and the fact that Stinkray's brother brings up the Fox story, could that mean that uncle Larry has a finger in the Stars/Stripe pie?

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Glorifying? So what do you expect Canfield to say? "SailGP is a bit shit but it's a pay cheque, Jack?"

Zero chance LE will be back in any shape or form while ETNZ is running the show.

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3 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

the fact that Stinkray's brother brings up the Fox story

 

I think my SA posts are generally pretty skeptical.  

But at least get the gender right.  I am female. ;)

 

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

 

I think my SA posts are generally pretty skeptical.  

But at least get the gender right.  I am female. ;)

 

Sorry Sis, missed that.

And indeed, this post in the Sail GP Australia  (Sailing Anarchy forum) is pretty skeptical. Missed that too...

 

On 1/25/2019 at 4:43 AM, NeedAClew said:

Hope RC has his cash in hand for as far out as possible in the 5 year period.  Big O getting some pesky class action and guvmint lawsuits about wage and hiring discrimination, latter may affect USG contract eligibility and O costs in middle term. LE may start million-pinching.

Well said !

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Just saw the video on FB of the Stars and Stripes grinder testing.

If Stars and Stripes put 1/2 the money they are spending for their kickoff party in California this Thursday night into the design team, and less time into these type of promotions, they might have a chance. 

Awesome at promotions and social media, but where is the steak? F me, this is not a hip hop video.

PS - The fact they are putting Anna T through a strength test is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. She could sail circles around the current team and bench lift them while she is doing it.

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Double true when you consider that the AC75s will not have Grinders in the sense that we knew them for the Bermuda Cup, and will be relying on stored power for many of the functions. 

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think it's a bit of catch 22 here.  by them spending the $$ on promo's and such, they'll get a buzz and some media attention.  that might translate into sponsorship $$$

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23 hours ago, dent said:

think it's a bit of catch 22 here.  by them spending the $$ on promo's and such, they'll get a buzz and some media attention.  that might translate into sponsorship $$$

Agreed. Promotion could potentially attract much needed $$ & does increase interest amongst a broader audience. Though perhaps time & $$ that could be better used in hiring a few more designers, engineers or boat builders??? Seems they could probably use a few more of those  

Buckley seems to have promotion experience that he’s putting to use. Good to see a wide variety of crew trying out.  Will be interesting to see who they actually choose from the “try outs”.

In a competition where time is one of the most precious assets, they are a bit behind the curve (at least for this AC cycle).  Not alot of time to get team selected, trained on the boat (even if they have the best simulators) to get on the line in the prescribed timeframe. Time will tell. Foiling cats & moths are good training platforms, yes, yet very different physics from the AC75. 

Interesting video content to use, especially given the comments about the limited grinding needs in AC36.  

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On 2/27/2019 at 2:36 PM, Jay_41 said:

Agreed. Promotion could potentially attract much needed $$ & does increase interest amongst a broader audience. Though perhaps time & $$ that could be better used in hiring a few more designers, engineers or boat builders??? Seems they could probably use a few more of those  

Buckley seems to have promotion experience that he’s putting to use. Good to see a wide variety of crew trying out.  Will be interesting to see who they actually choose from the “try outs”.

In a competition where time is one of the most precious assets, they are a bit behind the curve (at least for this AC cycle).  Not alot of time to get team selected, trained on the boat (even if they have the best simulators) to get on the line in the prescribed timeframe. Time will tell. Foiling cats & moths are good training platforms, yes, yet very different physics from the AC75. 

Interesting video content to use, especially given the comments about the limited grinding needs in AC36.  

Have you ever met Mike Buckley? He’s the king of promotion; self promotion that is. He’s an outstanding hype man.  The real question is has he ever won anything? IMHO this team would be better served with him running their social media and getting in front of the camera to  conduct interviews, while letting winning sailors race. 

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On 3/5/2019 at 7:52 AM, Sailimggoddess said:

Have you ever met Mike Buckley? He’s the king of promotion; self promotion that is. He’s an outstanding hype man.  The real question is has he ever won anything? IMHO this team would be better served with him running their social media and getting in front of the camera to  conduct interviews, while letting winning sailors race. 

Yes, excels at (self) promotion, and hip hop promotion?! Oh wait.  Hope this venture goes better.

 I do give them props for infusing more energy into a broader audience through their promotion & grass roots efforts. They are introducing a wide group of talented sailors to new experiences & opportunities of what is possible.    Good on ‘em for that! 

#AllAmerican....??  Not so sure about that claim. When you choose to support Team NZ by giving them $5m toward their campaign to buy their design- is that #AllAmerican? Or  have a kiwi trainer in their gym video (no American trainers qualified??)  or a South African as one of their first designer hires??  Hmmm.  

 

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On 1/6/2019 at 10:30 AM, Sailimggoddess said:

Hopefully this will turn out better than that time Mike Buckley tried to be a hip hop producer. He’s the whitest or white boys. 

 

Haaa....

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5 hours ago, Herfy said:

Nice piece. Worth watching.  Good to see focus on some very motivated people trying out.

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On 3/8/2019 at 6:32 AM, Herfy said:

Watching it I get a bit of that captain america feeling.

tumblr_m51l31dxY01qe0s6jo2_250.gif.b2ca6d7933616f4330e206567704c285.gif

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