dg_sailingfan

Stars & Stripes Team USA confirmed as 5th Challenger

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On 9/9/2019 at 4:46 AM, NZK said:

Or they have no money or team and are fucked....

Here's the more likely scenario...

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This was pretty much my assumption too and it'll be interesting to see how the boats differ....

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Posted Thursday at 10:21 PM

  On 9/5/2019 at 9:33 PM, Stingray~ said:

Fortunately for the rate and tax payers, most of the improvements are good, long-term ones for Auckland regardless.

rh3000 reply:

100%. That was known and understood by all parties, and the rationale for the consent and funding. The discussion around number of teams was more around budget required to support, not the resulting yield and value to Auckland. So once they've hit critical mass (ie three challengers) beyond that is neither here nor there...

So all good :-) As promised and as planned. Good old up-front frank and honest ETNZ continues their good form eh :-)

--------------------------------

A few questions...

Why was the Hobson Wharf extension needed?  What was the cost? Did we really need to gobble up more of the harbour ?

During the protest over the unpaid fees by the vapour-challengers, why did LR withdraw their objections and agree to Protocol changes to give the vapour-challengers easier terms ?
Could it be that ETNZ strong-armed LR, hoping to get more than the 3 challengers they had, have and will have?
("Don't worry, Patrizio, we're sure you'll like it just fine over there on Wynyard Point with INEO and AM. There's plenty of room, we have no real need to build out Hobson Wharf if we only have 3 challengers.")

Nah, just a crazy conspiracy theory. That Hobson Wharf extension is good for Auckland ; it didn't cost all that much. 

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Oh I see the Stop Stealing Our Harbour folks are back. Or is it the Stop The Harbour Stealing?

I thought it was the Our Harbour - Stop The Stealing.

Seriously, everyone agrees that Ports Of Auckland can take a hike, but the level of animosity to Hobson wharf extension is simply a case of dogmatically cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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By my own calculation S&STUSA need to have their Boat in the water by the end of next month (October). If they don't I don't see them making it to Cagliari.

They will splash in by all accounts somwhere near Long Beach where their Home Base is. It takes about 25-30 to ship it from Los Angeles to Cagliari highly likely using the Panama Canal.

They need to train properly for 2 1/2 months.

How will they make this work?

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

How will they make this work?

It won’t happen, it’s been obvious for at least 8 months already.

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3 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

They do not have to win the event to continue their quest for the Americas Cup.... 

My Question isn't about winning, it's about how they are going to make the Start Line in Cagliari? The Protocol is pretty clear. If you're not racing in Italy the Prada Cup in Auckland is a no show.

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Just now, dg_sailingfan said:

My Question isn't about winning, it's about how they are going to make the Start Line in Cagliari? The Protocol is pretty clear. If you're not racing in Italy the Prada Cup in Auckland is a no show.

Sure.... and you are suggesting that they need to train for 2 1/2 months... It does not take that long to learn how to cross the start line and you do not need to finish.

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Just now, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Sure.... and you are suggesting that they need to train for 2 1/2 months... It does not take that long to learn how to cross the start line and you do not need to finish.

It wasn't me who is suggesting the 2 1/2 months.

Max Sirena, the Skipper of the Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli Team said in an Interview with the AC.com Website that once these AC 75 Boats are launched it would take 10 Weeks mimimum of Training before these Sea Monsters can be raced properly on a Race Course. S&STUSA has the least experience of all the Teams so the likelyhood is that it would take considerable more time to race these Boats properly.

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14 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Sure.... and you are suggesting that they need to train for 2 1/2 months... It does not take that long to learn how to cross the start line and you do not need to finish.

To be honest it's probably sufficient to make it to the start box and fall over to fulfil their obligations.

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9 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Oh I see the Stop Stealing Our Harbour folks are back. Or is it the Stop The Harbour Stealing?

I thought it was the Our Harbour - Stop The Stealing.

Seriously, everyone agrees that Ports Of Auckland can take a hike, but the level of animosity to Hobson wharf extension is simply a case of dogmatically cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Haven't followed this issue closely and am not aware it has reignited.  Perhaps just a discussion point here.

Yves Klein asked why the extension was needed.  As I recall, the planning started when it appeared there would not  be sufficient room for all challengers on Wynyard Point. The concept solidified as the hopefuls evaporated but ETNZ and the city became aware of the extent of LR planned use.

From the little we've been told it appears LR and Prada are going full court press on their Auckland base.  All good.  Besides, they will need it after 2021 when ETNZ retains the Auld Mug and has to defend again!

As for the vocal lrabble determined to Save our Harbour, Feh. Nasty, noisy bunch seemingly without the glimmer of a notion of what the harbour could be if Ports of Auckland would take it's operations elsewhere and leave its land and waterfront to developments that would benefit all the citizenry.

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41 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Haven't followed this issue closely and am not aware it has reignited.  Perhaps just a discussion point here.

Yves Klein asked why the extension was needed.  As I recall, the planning started when it appeared there would not  be sufficient room for all challengers on Wynyard Point. The concept solidified as the hopefuls evaporated but ETNZ and the city became aware of the extent of LR planned use.

From the little we've been told it appears LR and Prada are going full court press on their Auckland base.  All good.  Besides, they will need it after 2021 when ETNZ retains the Auld Mug and has to defend again!

As for the vocal lrabble determined to Save our Harbour, Feh. Nasty, noisy bunch seemingly without the glimmer of a notion of what the harbour could be if Ports of Auckland would take it's operations elsewhere and leave its land and waterfront to developments that would benefit all the citizenry.

Strong the force is, in this one.  ;-)

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Crickets....

 

Any news at all from this group? At least make your intentions clear, please. 

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I'm guessing they are contractually obligated to NOT make their intentions clear! :D

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Well, it was pretty clear that S&STUSA would wait until ETNZ splashed Boat 1 to complete their built process. They made that intention quite clear in that little piece @Varan mentioned.

Now the Question is: Will that S&S Boat be completed in time for the ACWS in Cagliari in about 6 months?

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18 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Now the Question is: Will that S&S Boat be completed in time for the ACWS in Cagliari in about 6 months?

I agree with you that they will wait.

For  completing the boat... maybe yes, maybe not. But definitely, who cares? Sponsors, which sponsors? 
They are not there to win, they should do the best they can for the actual America's Cup in Auckland. 

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38 minutes ago, ITA602 said:

I agree with you that they will wait.

For  completing the boat... maybe yes, maybe not. But definitely, who cares? Sponsors, which sponsors? 
They are not there to win, they should do the best they can for the actual America's Cup in Auckland. 

I wouldn't be surprised if they withdraw from Cagliari & the AC at the last minute. As noted by recent Postings in this Thread it has gone awfully quiet regarding that Team.

The only thing we know is that they have a Boatyard in Holland, Michigan but that's about it.

They have no Sponsors, no Shore Team and no Sailing Team.

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8 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they withdraw from Cagliari & the AC at the last minute. As noted by recent Postings in this Thread it has gone awfully quiet regarding that Team.

The only thing we know is that they have a Boatyard in Holland, Michigan but that's about it.

They have no Sponsors, no Shore Team and no Sailing Team.

They don't have a boat yard in MI, they contracted with a composite company there to build their boat, but that composite company stopped work when S&S stopped paying their bills.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Norcal said:

They don't have a boat yard in MI, they contracted with a composite company there to build their boat, but that composite company stopped work when S&S stopped paying their bills.

Why people are still fantasizing about a ‘they’ at S&S is beyond me.. 

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12 hours ago, Rskiff said:

Wouldn't it be funny if uncle Larry came swooping in and funded the show

 

It would be hilarious :D. But he wouldn't because it would leave his Petulant50 series with serious credibility "challenges".

S&S only have to have the hull laminated in the US to comply with Constructed-in-Country requirements: "Replaceable bows and sterns, materials, tooling and other components and hardware used in or during the lamination or other form of construction of the hull may be obtained from any country."

Maybe ETNZ is helping out with the rest...

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

Why people are still fantasizing about a ‘they’ at S&S is beyond me.. 

As much as I hate to say it - being a Yank, S&S needs to go away. It's now just a very questionable ETNZ test program, way too polluted to be a viable participant.

If 3 challengers is all ETNZ can get to the line, so be it.

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7 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

As much as I hate to say it - being a Yank, S&S needs to go away. It's now just a very questionable ETNZ test program, now way too polluted now to be a viable participant.

An ETNZ poodle or not, just look at the other programs. 100+ people on board for the past several months, they are big-big programs. There will very obviously be only 3 Challengers. 

The implications are a far-smaller economic impact to NZ but much more importantly to us non-NZ-tax-payer AC fans, the format of the CSS will be a lot different than if there had been more than 3. They should in fairness change the freaking CSS dates to be closer to the Match so that the Challs can better-target the actual Match conditions. 

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4 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

As much as I hate to say it - being a Yank, S&S needs to go away. It's now just a very questionable ETNZ test program, now way too polluted now to be a viable participant.

Honestly enough with the test program baloney, S&S if they break cover will be so far behind ETNZ as to make it pretty pointless.

The only real purpose of S&S from ETNZ's perspective is to make the event as appealing to sponsors as possible, the engine of the ETNZ campaign is and always has been sponsorship!

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11 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Honestly enough with the test program baloney, S&S if they break cover will be so far behind ETNZ as to make it pretty pointless.

The only real purpose of S&S from ETNZ's perspective is to make the event as appealing to sponsors as possible, the engine of the ETNZ campaign is and always has been sponsorship!

90% of the interest ETNZ is trying to capture event-promotion-wise is in NZ. They paraded the Cup all over the place, even in old-age homes, to try generate interest. Look for more of that because most NZers actually don’t care what the ‘rich yachties’ are doing!

I will give them credit so far, for giving good video productions that TVNZ and others can get free of charge, far better than what TVNZ can produce for themselves and so they run it. It’s an advertising push for more public support and it’ll probably work to a good degree.

Problem is, the whole thing needs to compressed time-wise with only 3 teams coming to town. The ‘There are not nearly enough bases for all the teams!’ bullshit that RG wrote so exuberantly about, was just a blissfully-ignorant fantasy or worse.

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

90% of the interest ETNZ is trying to capture event-promotion-wise is in NZ. They paraded the Cup all over the place, even old-age homes, to try generate interest. Look for more of that because most NZers actually don’t care what the ‘rich yachties’ are doing!

I will give them credit so far, for giving good video productions that TVNZ and others can get free of charge, far better than what they can produce themselves and so they run it.

Haven't you got a KKK mob to run away from??:D

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

90% of the interest ETNZ is trying to capture event-promotion-wise is in NZ. They paraded the Cup all over the place, even in old-age homes, to try generate interest. Look for more of that because most NZers actually don’t care what the ‘rich yachties’ are doing!

I will give them credit so far, for giving good video productions that TVNZ and others can get free of charge, far better than what TVNZ can produce for themselves and so they run it. It’s an advertising push for more public support and it’ll probably work to a good degree.

You are a riddle... did you not see the crowds that heralded the arrival of the cup back in NZ? Parades across across a sports-mad nation where the coastline is never more than 2 hours away. Most NZers enjoy that ETNZ manage to defeat the 'rich yachties' from the likes of the USA, here sailing is much more accessible and as a result is not regarded purely as a rich man's sport.

Not sure what TVNZ production you are referring to... 

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1 minute ago, rh3000 said:

Not sure what TVNZ production you are referring to... 

At least two of them over the past week have been very good productions by ETNZ and yes, NZ TV stations lapped it up. 

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10 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

At least two of them over the past week have been very good productions by ETNZ and yes, NZ TV stations lapped it up. 

NZ TV Stations lapped it up because New Zealand audiences lapped it up... believe it or not, a lot of New Zealanders actually do enjoy watching us win stuff! :lol:

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

An ETNZ poodle or not, just look at the other programs. 100+ people on board for the past several months, they are big-big programs. There will very obviously be only 3 Challengers. 

The implications are a far-smaller economic impact to NZ but much more importantly to us non-NZ-tax-payer AC fans, the format of the CSS will be a lot different than if there had been more than 3. They should in fairness change the freaking CSS dates to be closer to the Match so that the Challs can better-target the actual Match conditions. 

I agree. There is just no meat on the bones here. The idea of an ACWS now is a joke. Just run the cup and the final match fairly close together. Give everyone plenty of time to test, build, re-build, test, etc. Then at least it will be interesting.

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13 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I agree. There is just no meat on the bones here. The idea of an ACWS now is a joke. Just run the cup and the final match fairly close together. Give everyone plenty of time to test, build, re-build, test, etc. Then at least it will be interesting.

it will be interesting regardless. the boats look really cool and will obviously be VERY fast. i can't wait to see them in a tacking dual. the more the merrier.

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23 minutes ago, bigrpowr said:

it will be interesting regardless. the boats look really cool and will obviously be VERY fast. i can't wait to see them in a tacking dual. the more the merrier.

You're hilarious! If the Speeds are even remotely close what the ETNZ Simulator was predicting you can throw close tacking duels out of the window. It will be much more like VMG and corner to corner sailing and not tacking in close quarters!

Ya can't tack on top of the other Boat when you have 45+ knot closing speeds. It would be a lot of carnarge if you do.

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45 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I agree. There is just no meat on the bones here. The idea of an ACWS now is a joke. Just run the cup and the final match fairly close together. Give everyone plenty of time to test, build, re-build, test, etc. Then at least it will be interesting.

Yep. With only 3 Challengers there’s little reason to try stretch the wait and the cost down there for over several months, in completely different conditions, it’s kinda ridiculous.

The scheduled ‘Christmas Cup’ and ‘Prada Cup’ are pointlessly long, as are the suppose’d ACWS regattas that nobody wants to attend either. They should, for the sake of the teams, dial it way back since the only big sponsor benefactor is Prada and nobody else actually cares to waste time on them in those periods.

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9 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yep. With only 3 Challengers there’s little reason to try stretch the wait and the cost down there for over several months, in completely different conditions, it’s kinda ridiculous.

The scheduled ‘Christmas Cup’ and ‘Prada Cup’ are pointlessly long, as are the suppose’d ACWS regattas that nobody wants to attend either. They should, for the sake of the teams, dial it way back since the only big sponsor benefactor is Prada and nobody else actually cares to waste time on them in those periods.

The ACWS Regattas were just a Plot by Luna Rossa & Emirates Team New Zealand to check out the Opposition and what AM & Ineos are up to similarly what Alinghi did with the Louis Vuitton Acts in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

ETNZ doesn't want to get caught offguard like OTUSA was during AC34 when the World Series wasn't sailed in the actual Cup Boats but in lesser AC 45 Toys. Those ACWS Events will be only beneficial if anything to LR & ETNZ.

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25 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

The ACWS Regattas were just a Plot by Luna Rossa & Emirates Team New Zealand to check out the Opposition and what AM & Ineos are up to similarly what Alinghi did with the Louis Vuitton Acts in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

ETNZ doesn't want to get caught offguard like OTUSA was during AC34 when the World Series wasn't sailed in the actual Cup Boats but in lesser AC 45 Toys. Those ACWS Events will be only beneficial if anything to LR & ETNZ.

How does LR somehow magically gain more from knowing about INEOS than INEOS gains from knowing about LR...  I'm not going to dispute it's probably beneficial for ETNZ to have the series (although I would argue it's more about time in the boat in competitive conditions, something the Defender has traditionally lacked since Defenders series disappeared).  But surely all the challengers are equal and gain equally from any pre regatta series, no? how does one challenger gain more from them than others?

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S&S stopped paying, so ETNZ stopped sharing months and months ago.

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14 hours ago, PJB said:

S&S stopped paying, so ETNZ stopped sharing months and months ago.

Probably because S+S has no money, which makes it really hard to make payments on anything...

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19 hours ago, bigrpowr said:

it will be interesting regardless. the boats look really cool and will obviously be VERY fast. i can't wait to see them in a tacking dual. the more the merrier.

Didn't someone say that the foil system takes ~15 seconds per tack/gybe to build enough pressure for another maneuver?  That kills the tacking dual theory.

Also, when considering that you now have an imaginary boundary box around the boat, you won't see the close dial-ups that everyone seems to be wishing for.

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2 minutes ago, wlrottge said:

Didn't someone say that the foil system takes ~15 seconds per tack/gybe to build enough pressure for another maneuver?  That kills the tacking dual theory.

Also, when considering that you now have an imaginary boundary box around the boat, you won't see the close dial-ups that everyone seems to be wishing for.

Could create some interesting situations where one boat tacks into the other, but the other has only just tacked and so doesn't actually have the hydro to keep/get clear...

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3 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Could create some interesting situations where one boat tacks into the other, but the other has only just tacked and so doesn't actually have the hydro to keep/get clear...

was EXACTLY my point. Interesting and possibly exciting one way or the other.

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4 hours ago, wlrottge said:

Didn't someone say that the foil system takes ~15 seconds per tack/gybe to build enough pressure for another maneuver?  That kills the tacking dual theory.

That's just recharge of the accumulator as I recall, I guess they could be changed to bigger pumps ect if everyone complains?

End of November to sort it out restrictions,about one more year to freeze updates to the fcs system. According to 34.1 of the Rule I have here.

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It's a big difference if it's ~15sec between manœuvre, or ~15sec between lift of the same foil (port/starboard).

I also agree that it could be interesting for tactics and match racing (if we don't have one boat disappearing in the distance). Could we end up with boats pushing each other out of bounds? Is it faster to continue foiling out of bonds or drop in the water and wait for the system to recharge? Anyway I don't expect this to play a huge role in the matches, and it was already the case with the cats somehow...

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On 9/17/2019 at 1:55 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

Ya can't tack on top of the other Boat when you have 45+ knot closing speeds. It would be a lot of carnarge if you do.

I'd suggest they can, and will:, with the proximity rules, tacking on top of the incoming boat will have the same effect as displacement-boat match racing, by forcing the incoming boat to try get underneath, or to tack away, or face a penalty. I feel the proximity rules are going to be a critical part of the match-racing strategies the afterguards employ, especially upwind. You are rght about the potential carnage though - timing and judgement will be far more critical than in displacement boats, and the consequences much higher if (when) they get it wrong. Game on!!

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On 9/18/2019 at 8:12 AM, wlrottge said:

Didn't someone say that the foil system takes ~15 seconds per tack/gybe to build enough pressure for another maneuver?  That kills the tacking dual theory.

Also, when considering that you now have an imaginary boundary box around the boat, you won't see the close dial-ups that everyone seems to be wishing for.

15 seconds will seem fast when you're trying to keep a 75 foot up on the foils, watch out for the other boat, the boundary, the next mark, wind shifts, wind pressure and Ben.

(Even if he's not in the same race)

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i thought the foil arms were electrically actuated? do the electrons have to rest? or are the pumps not acting directly on the fluid... just used to pressurize tanks? seems like an extra layer over direct actuation plus you'd have to have pressure tanks as well as batteries...

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45 minutes ago, overdraft said:

i thought the foil arms were electrically actuated? do the electrons have to rest? or are the pumps not acting directly on the fluid... just used to pressurize tanks? seems like an extra layer over direct actuation plus you'd have to have pressure tanks as well as batteries...

 

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1 hour ago, overdraft said:

i thought the foil arms were electrically actuated? do the electrons have to rest? or are the pumps not acting directly on the fluid... just used to pressurize tanks? seems like an extra layer over direct actuation plus you'd have to have pressure tanks as well as batteries...

So you reckon the system should be as simple as a Y-port ball valve, an on/off switch and a couple of NRV'S? It's not a bad idea and the trickle down will most likely start with simple setups. For now though, wicked geeks are in control.

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On 9/17/2019 at 1:12 PM, wlrottge said:

Didn't someone say that the foil system takes ~15 seconds per tack/gybe to build enough pressure for another maneuver?  

4 hours ago, Salty Seacock said:

So you reckon the system should be as simple as a Y-port ball valve, an on/off switch and a couple of NRV'S? It's not a bad idea and the trickle down will most likely start with simple setups. For now though, wicked geeks are in control.

 

Salty, my query was based on the above quote that it would take 15 seconds to “build pressure”... i didn’t actually think i had a better idea :)

@rh3000 , thanks for the vid!

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25 minutes ago, overdraft said:

Salty, my query was based on the above quote that it would take 15 seconds to “build pressure”... i didn’t actually think i had a better idea :)

@rh3000 , thanks for the vid!

Listen here buddy. I'm old and salty, hence the nickname. Couple my age with alcohol abuse and you'll understand this place is about the only social connection I have.

Good point.

 

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16 hours ago, rh3000 said:

 

Good video, worth the re-watch. 

Was this done before or after the arms went from 300kg to 450kg? 

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Alert:

Cup Experience Editor Jack Griffin is in Marseille this weekend and plans to Interview Taylor Canfield & his Plans in regards to the Stars & Stripes America's Cup Challenge.

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5 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Alert:

Cup Experience Editor Jack Griffin is in Marseille this weekend and plans to Interview Taylor Canfield & his Plans in regards to the Stars & Stripes America's Cup Challenge.

If anyone had a link to the interview it would be mighty-fine if ya shared it!

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1 minute ago, boxxy said:

If anyone had a link to the interview it would be mighty-fine if ya shared it!

Griffin will probably share that himself when his next Newsletter comes out.

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On 9/20/2019 at 8:14 PM, Forourselves said:

Are these guys still alive or what? Posted today...

 

Random postings of old workouts....

no money, no team & no boat. 

At this point, S&S can be listed as a Sponsor on ETNZ’s boat as they have given $$$ to support ETNZ for a “design package” which they have done nothing with.   Seems that just makes S&S a supporter & sponsor of Team New Zeland.   Hmmmm...that doesn’t seem very #ALLAmerican??!!!  #hypocritical  

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Its about time someone called these guys out for the frauds that they are. LBYC should be ashamed of themselves for playing along and supporting the defender. #AllAmericanHypocrites

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2 hours ago, SweetIrishGeorge said:

Its about time someone called these guys out for the frauds that they are. LBYC should be ashamed of themselves for playing along and supporting the defender. #AllAmericanHypocrites

Frauds?  Well,  if money from sponsors was misdirected in the hustle then, yea, maybe something's  messed up.   But, from here, it looks like a typical big-boat campaign with lots of bluster and such to attract sponsor's cash.  How else they supposed to raise the $$$?   Not the first/ last campaign to fall short when the rents due.   It happens.  It's sailing.

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On 9/22/2019 at 10:34 AM, boxxy said:

If anyone had a link to the interview it would be mighty-fine if ya shared it!

Griffin will be waxing lyrical about Uncle Larry and his SailGP playbox, if his history is anything to go by..

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4 hours ago, SweetIrishGeorge said:

Its about time someone called these guys out for the frauds that they are. LBYC should be ashamed of themselves for playing along and supporting the defender. #AllAmericanHypocrites

Its another dg sock puppet.

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2 hours ago, blunderfull said:

Frauds?  Well,  if money from sponsors was misdirected in the hustle then, yea, maybe something's  messed up.   But, from here, it looks like a typical big-boat campaign with lots of bluster and such to attract sponsor's cash.  How else they supposed to raise the $$$?   Not the first/ last campaign to fall short when the rents due.   It happens.  It's sailing.

My guess is that between one or two persons Canfield raised a few million to immediately go buy the design and start a boat build (time-critical, even way back then) on the chance he could raise the other 80% of the needed funds. The initial ‘investors’ have now basically blown that cash but it was (smartly) relatively small enough to them that they half-expected it anyway. The cash was from SD and from Chicago, both of them reasonably wealthy people, no fools.

If Canfield is still trying to somehow make this happen (lol) then I guess he will tell Jack G as much.

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4 hours ago, SweetIrishGeorge said:

Its about time someone called these guys out for the frauds that they are. LBYC should be ashamed of themselves for playing along and supporting the defender. #AllAmericanHypocrites

I hoped the collaboration between OTUSA & SBTJ in BDA was a one off we would never see again.

Ironically Grumpy old Grant Dalton was the first one to complain about it and now he's doing the very same thing. Technically the other 3 Challengers can still appeal the Validity of the Long Beach Yacht Club & Stars & Stripes Team USA before the Arbritation Panel if it turns out that the Team gained a significant Advantage because of the Design Sharing and they certainly will do that if that's what happens.

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48 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I hoped the collaboration between OTUSA & SBTJ in BDA was a one off we would never see again.

Ironically Grumpy old Grant Dalton was the first one to complain about it and now he's doing the very same thing. Technically the other 3 Challengers can still appeal the Validity of the Long Beach Yacht Club & Stars & Stripes Team USA before the Arbritation Panel if it turns out that the Team gained a significant Advantage because of the Design Sharing and they certainly will do that if that's what happens.

There's a difference. The deal between ETNZ and Stars + Stripes was for a design package. Obviously thats all it was, as if it was anything more Stars + Stripes would have no problems, financial or otherwise getting to the start line. There is no "significant advantage" for either Stars + Stripes or ETNZ. Stars + Stripes don't have a boat completed so they have no worthwhile data to share with ETNZ at this point, and even if they did, its not data that ETNZ can't/ won't gain themselves through their own testing program, and Stars + Stripes have no REAL way of validating that data themselves as they don't have a boat to use.

There is no REAL benefit to ETNZ other than one extra team involved in the event. By the time Stars + Stripes launches, ETNZ will be well into and far down the road of designing boat 2. Given the struggles Stars + Stripes seem to be having, is it of any REAL benefit to the Kiwi's? Maybe financially, as Stars + Stripes would have no doubt paid a hefty sum for the ETNZ design package, but do we really think the addition of the cost of the design package sold to Stars + Stripes will somehow allow ETNZ to exceed the campaign budgets of any of the other challengers? 

The reason Grant Dalton complained is because essentially Oracle and Softbank Team Japan were the same team, just with a fake name. They shared the same base compound, the same design team, the same sponsorship and the same financial backer (Larry Ellison). Softbank Team Japan was exactly what SailGP Team Japan is now, owned by Larry Ellison, backed by Larry Ellison, campaigned by Larry Ellison, and shut down when Larry Ellison lost interest.

Essentially Oracle were able to have a boat in the Challenger series who then assisted the Defender after the Challenger series ended to try and retain the AC, and was able to share any and all knowledge gained by racing in anger against all of the other challengers.

Problem was, they were so far behind in their thinking, none of it mattered.

Thats the difference. And there IS a difference.

 

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24 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The reason Grant Dalton complained is because essentially Oracle and Softbank Team Japan were the same team, just with a fake name. They shared the same base compound, the same design team, the same sponsorship and the same financial backer (Larry Ellison).

Will you ever stop with posting that tired old bullshit revisionist history? 

Softbank raced with different kit (Holroyd explained it all) and them being signees to the agreement to wanna race the AC50’s again was perfectly understandable since 4 other teams signed it too.

You always arguing one-eyed conspiracies about ‘The whole world is against poor little GD and poor little NZ’ is both ridiculous and tiresome, those teams all did what they did in their own best self-interests. And you will see it again this time by the CoR and, if the other two get any f’ing say this time, by them too.

I seriously doubt S+S would have felt beholden to ETNZ, just as SoftBank was not to Oracle either,.

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If S+S were a well funded team all along but built 1 boat, and IF the design package produced a boat similar to TeAhe, maybe not identical, would there not be some useful info gleaned from watching S+S race against the other challengers, as well as TeAhe with any differences from the design package? They would be doing that in ACWS.

And challenger boats 2, presumably, would still have to get by S+S in the Prada Cup. So some early form of TeAhe possibly changed 12.5 or 25 percent (dunno which rule says now if 1 boat) would be in there, too.

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3 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

If S+S were a well funded team all along but built 1 boat, and IF the design package produced a boat similar to TeAhe, maybe not identical, would there not be some useful info gleaned from watching S+S race against the other challengers, as well as TeAhe with any differences from the design package? They would be doing that in ACWS.

And challenger boats 2, presumably, would still have to get by S+S in the Prada Cup. So some early form of TeAhe possibly changed 12.5 or 25 percent (dunno which rule says now if 1 boat) would be in there, too.

Since S+S won’t even have sails, who the hell cares? 

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4 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Will you ever stop with posting that tired old bullshit revisionist history? 

Softbank raced with different kit (Holroyd explained it all) and them being signees to the agreement to wanna race the AC50’s again was perfectly understandable since 4 other teams signed it too.

You always arguing one-eyed conspiracies about ‘The whole world is against poor little GD and poor little NZ’ is both ridiculous and tiresome, those teams all did what they did in their own best self-interests. And you will see it again this time by the CoR and, if the other two get any f’ing say this time, by them too.

I seriously doubt S+S would have felt beholden to ETNZ, just as SoftBank was not to Oracle either,.

I didn't bring it up. You mate Dg did.

And this statement says it all "SoftBank was not to Oracle either" Lol what a joke.

Its only a conspiracy theory if its not true...problem is...its all true.

I can't help it if you don't like or want to remember the past, but you can't say what happened in the past is only a theory, because its not. It all happened. From the cheating, to the spying, to the loss of AC match points before the regatta even started, to the financial penalties, to the altering of the protocol, to the breaching of signed agreements, to the replacement of class rules without unanimous consent, to the establishing of a "Challenger" who's job it was to help the defender retain, to the demolition and  embarrassment of a defender everyone wanted to see gone. 

It all happened. You might call it "revisionist" and "theory" but everyone else calls it... History.

And you wonder why Dalton complained.

Anywho, we won, and we will win again.

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11 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Since S+S won’t even have sails, who the hell cares? 

Who in NZ was to know for sure when they signed up for a package they would not be finishing the boat or getting sails?

If ETNZ did know for sure S+S was going to fizzle in funding then getting the $5M for the package was pretty sharp. They DID get paid? 

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45 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

There's a difference. The deal between ETNZ and Stars + Stripes was for a design package. Obviously thats all it was, as if it was anything more Stars + Stripes would have no problems, financial or otherwise getting to the start line. There is no "significant advantage" for either Stars + Stripes or ETNZ. Stars + Stripes don't have a boat completed so they have no worthwhile data to share with ETNZ at this point, and even if they did, its not data that ETNZ can't/ won't gain themselves through their own testing program, and Stars + Stripes have no REAL way of validating that data themselves as they don't have a boat to use.

There is no REAL benefit to ETNZ other than one extra team involved in the event. By the time Stars + Stripes launches, ETNZ will be well into and far down the road of designing boat 2. Given the struggles Stars + Stripes seem to be having, is it of any REAL benefit to the Kiwi's? Maybe financially, as Stars + Stripes would have no doubt paid a hefty sum for the ETNZ design package, but do we really think the addition of the cost of the design package sold to Stars + Stripes will somehow allow ETNZ to exceed the campaign budgets of any of the other challengers? 

The reason Grant Dalton complained is because essentially Oracle and Softbank Team Japan were the same team, just with a fake name. They shared the same base compound, the same design team, the same sponsorship and the same financial backer (Larry Ellison). Softbank Team Japan was exactly what SailGP Team Japan is now, owned by Larry Ellison, backed by Larry Ellison, campaigned by Larry Ellison, and shut down when Larry Ellison lost interest.

Essentially Oracle were able to have a boat in the Challenger series who then assisted the Defender after the Challenger series ended to try and retain the AC, and was able to share any and all knowledge gained by racing in anger against all of the other challengers.

Problem was, they were so far behind in their thinking, none of it mattered.

Thats the difference. And there IS a difference.

 

Wrong, there is no Difference. It's the same - Period. The Defender selling a Design Package to a Challenger AND getting paid for it is against the Spirit of the AC.

Ainslie voiced heavy critisism about that and so did the other 2 Challengers Luna Rossa & American Magic.

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24 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Wrong, there is no Difference. It's the same - Period. The Defender selling a Design Package to a Challenger AND getting paid for it is against the Spirit of the AC.

Ainslie voiced heavy critisism about that and so did the other 2 Challengers Luna Rossa & American Magic.

Nope. You're Wrong again.

Americas Cup Deed of Gift: 

The surviving members of the syndicate which owned the yacht America, the first winner of what would become the America's Cup (née “Royal Yacht Squadron Cup” or the “RYS Cup for One Hundred Sovereigns”),[citation needed] donated the America's Cup through a deed of gift to the New York Yacht Club on July 8, 1857. The cup would be held in trust as a “challenge trophy" to promote friendly competition among nations, with the deed of gift being the primary instrument governing the rules to make a valid challenge for the America’s Cup and the rules of conduct of the races"

What about this is ETNZ not honoring? They have sold a design package to S+S to assist them in getting what is a startup campaign to the start line in Auckland 2021 - Friendly Competition.

They have established a Mutual consent agreement with the "Challenger" to produce a protocol - primary instrument governing the rules to make valid challenge for the Americas Cup and the rules of conduct of the races.

Can you provide a link to this "Heavy criticism" from Ainslie? And besides, why are you worried about what Ainslie thinks anyway, yesterday you called him useless and said he will never win the Americas Cup and should shut down his campaign and never challenge again??

 

 

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45 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Who in NZ was to know for sure when they signed up for a package they would not be finishing the boat or getting sails?

If ETNZ did know for sure S+S was going to fizzle in funding then getting the $5M for the package was pretty sharp. They DID get paid? 

Yes, I’m sure ETNZ could not tell if S+S would make it to the line,; it’s a reasonable guess ETNZ were more than happy to help them try; and wth knows what they received for whatever design they sold to them? 

It would have been nice for the CSS format to have at least 4 Challs but it is what it is and fortunately none of the 3 Challs is using the Defender’s design - that we know of so far. The DoG is ~all about~ a yacht design competition. 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Yes, I’m sure ETNZ could not tell if S+S would make it to the line,; it’s a reasonable guess ETNZ were more than happy to help them try; and wth knows what they received for whatever design they sold to them? 

It would have been nice for the CSS format to have at least 4 Challs but it is what it is and fortunately none of the 3 Challs is using the Defender’s design - that we know of so far. 

I have read, I thought here, the design package was $5m

But if S+S HAD money then one challenger would be using the package and would be racing against the other challengers AND the defender in ACWS and against the challengers in Prada Cup. Like I said, who was to know when the package was handed over this would not happen. More than happy, well YEAH.

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39 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Wrong, there is no Difference. It's the same - Period. The Defender selling a Design Package to a Challenger AND getting paid for it is against the Spirit of the AC.

Ainslie voiced heavy critisism about that and so did the other 2 Challengers Luna Rossa & American Magic.

It's a bit rich for LR to be complaining about things. There has been quite a bit of collaboration between ETNZ & LR in this and the previous two America's Cups...

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Something I liked about OTUSA was how a big majority of the Designers were USA guys.

That’s where nationality matters by any reasonable reading of the DoG, most of AC history bears that intent out too - as it should. S+S started out on the wrong track from the get-go, buying a design package whose lead designer was some combination of French (what’s his name) and Italian/Brit (Bernasconi). ETNZ should have stuck with the perfectly-good Kiwi Holroyd. 

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

And this statement says it all "SoftBank was not to Oracle either" Lol what a joke.

 

You keep harping about TJ but if S&S gets a design package TNZ will train with two boats while being able to compare their design with other challengers and more time to modify their match boat. But it won't happen because GD could not justify subsiding a US team. :)

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Its another dg sock puppet.

You gotta smile at the name... A thinly veiled dig with the Irish currently ranked#1 in the Rugby standings?

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11 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You keep harping about TJ but if S&S gets a design package TNZ will train with two boats while being able to compare their design with other challengers and more time to modify their match boat. But it won't happen because GD could not justify subsiding a US team. :)

Don't you think if Dalton "subsidised" the S+S Team, they would be able to make the start line? Don't you think if they were "Subsidised" They would be at least building, if not testing Boat 1 by now? They must be shit at managing campaign budgets if they can't even manage a subsidised campaign budget.

In terms of comparing, they will be able to do that anyway, simply by watching the race coverage. During the Bermuda AC, Oracle found they did not have to build a second boat because they had the Japan boat to train with. They just had to wait until the Challenger eliminations were over before they could. Just like their conservative thinking, they obviously thought they were in the box seat given their performance through the qualifiers. 

There are only so many hours in the day, and for ETNZ, maintaining a two boat testing program will no doubt take up most of those hours. 

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Question:

How is ETNZ going to maintain a 2-Boat Testing Programme anyways? They only have 17 Sailors under contract and you need 11 guys to sail an AC 75 properly. You can basically throw the two Boat Testing during the Prada Cup which they're allowed to do out of the window. You need 22 Sailors to pull it off AND ETNZ doesn't have 22 Sailors.

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18 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

You keep harping about TJ but if S&S gets a design package TNZ will train with two boats while being able to compare their design with other challengers and more time to modify their match boat. But it won't happen because 

But it won't happen because S+S could not raise enough money to field a boat and team. 

But yes, my point (and I previously made it some days ago) is that a challenger's design package boat would offer numerous opportunities to compare aspects of ETNZ's package design with the other challengers and even with Te Aihe.  I really doubt Te Aihe is 100% identical to the package. 

It would not be two boat testing Te Aihe vs S+S, it would have been  Te Aihe AND S+S vs the rest. Think of the design package as Boat 1.0 and what it now Te Aihe as Boat 1.x where x is nonzero.

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22 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Think of the design package as Boat 1.0 and what it now Te Aihe as Boat 1.x where x is nonzero.

If S+S had materialized in the right way then they would have progressed from ETNZ’s 1.0 to their own 15.X design by now. And would have an imminent boat launch!

It has been for the last several months obvious to everyone on the planet except for F’Ourselves and some other gullible NZers that S+S has morphed into nothing but a wildly silly delusion. 

 

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43 minutes ago, Woolfy said:

A thinly veiled dig with the Irish currently ranked#1 in the Rugby standings?

The All Blacks got the No1 ranking back after beating the Saffers on Saturday.

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