J28

New D hats being tossed in the ring

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There have been significant additions and an update to the list of Democrat Presidential contenders that @Sean posted 3 weeks ago in this thread:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/205348-2020-democrat-presidential-field-is-already-winnowing-itself/&page=2

Additions/updates:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Vox:  “It’s ridiculous that it’s unconstitutional for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to run for president”

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/12/18134945/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-president

Bobby O’Rourke (included in Sean’s list but now the #1 choice of progressives per move-on.org poll)

Dallas Observer:  “Beto O'Rourke's Presidential Campaign Is Going To Wear Us Out”

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/beto-orourke-presidential-update-11410687

Julian Castro

The Guardian:  “JulianCastro calls Latinos to action as he moves toward 2020 run”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/julian-castro-2020-presidential-run-latino-community

 

 

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A re-election campaign of only two years should work for Trump, as it takes longer than that for his campaign staff to be indicted, tried, and sentenced. 

He'll be back in office before they go to prison. Winning!!!

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Seems to me that Trump ran in 2016 with the help of his A team. Now many of those folks are in jail, waiting to go to jail, waiting for trials, waiting for the other shoe to drop, pissed off at Trump or generally not available for 2020. Does this mean he will have run with his B team? Does not inspire confidence for Republicans one would think.

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4 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Seems to me that Trump ran in 2016 with the help of his A team. Now many of those folks are in jail, waiting to go to jail, waiting for trials, waiting for the other shoe to drop, pissed off at Trump or generally not available for 2020. Does this mean he will have run with his B team? Does not inspire confidence for Republicans one would think.

I think he's down to his K team by now, in between prison, rats abandoning the ship, and new rats avoiding getting on board. I predict the K team will be as successful as the K car.

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Hope not - the K-car was extremely successful.

It saved Chrysler and begat the minivan

How about the I-Team - I for inmate.

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10 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Seems to me that Trump ran in 2016 with the help of his A team. Now many of those folks are in jail, waiting to go to jail, waiting for trials, waiting for the other shoe to drop, pissed off at Trump or generally not available for 2020. Does this mean he will have run with his B team? Does not inspire confidence for Republicans one would think.

that's why they are fiddling with the New Hampsha primary.

ayers is a-team and his snouts going straight to the cash trough. he'll be able to siphon off millions for himself no doubt. it's all about grifting to the rightwing.

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If all goes well, they'll be eating 50 y/o K-rations in a concrete cell on Cuba.

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Thanks Sean.  You added something to the discussion, unlike the 7 dwarfs who posted before you ( @Mismoyled Jiblet. counts for two with his alter ego @Raz'r) who added nothing but their usual snark.

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In MoveOn's poll Biden is 2nd, Beto 1st, Bernie 3rd, I can't remember the others - tops was a player to be named later.  Just trying to help Mac loving J28 stay distracted from thinking about P Donnie.  Can't say I never did anything nice......

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:

He's one of my dark horses - as I said before, he just needs to run on the 'abolish the electoral college' platform and he'll spring to the front.

I like his views,  but the Trump experiment suggests POTUS isn’t an entry level position.   Buying politicians does’t equal experience in government,   

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Tulsi Gabbard said she was seriously considering running on Chris Mathews show tonight. On the upside, she's a hellofalot easier to look at than the current *resident.

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5 hours ago, J28 said:

There have been significant additions and an update to the list of Democrat Presidential contenders that @Sean posted 3 weeks ago in this thread:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/205348-2020-democrat-presidential-field-is-already-winnowing-itself/&page=2

Additions/updates:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Vox:  “It’s ridiculous that it’s unconstitutional for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to run for president”

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/12/18134945/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-president

Bobby O’Rourke (included in Sean’s list but now the #1 choice of progressives per move-on.org poll)

Dallas Observer:  “Beto O'Rourke's Presidential Campaign Is Going To Wear Us Out”

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/beto-orourke-presidential-update-11410687

Julian Castro

The Guardian:  “JulianCastro calls Latinos to action as he moves toward 2020 run”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/julian-castro-2020-presidential-run-latino-community

 

 

Any of them fuck a porn star while their wife was home breastfeeding their newborn?

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34 minutes ago, Lark said:

I like his views,  but the Trump experiment suggests POTUS isn’t an entry level position.   Buying politicians does’t equal experience in government,   

Agreed :)  I'm actually not a Steyer fan, I just see him appealing to a certain slice of the electorate.  Of the front runners, I like Biden.

There was actually a very cool article I read about 10 years ago that basically looked at billionaires and calculated the point at which they made their money.  Most of them made their money in essentially a 10 year window and just inertia success (money begets money)  it after that.  They basically never had another great idea.  That's one reason they suggest never taking financial advice from a billionaire - they've already used up their great idea.

 

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26 minutes ago, Sean said:

Tulsi Gabbard said she was seriously considering running on Chris Mathews show tonight. On the upside, she's a hellofalot easier to look at than the current *resident.

I hope she runs.  She's been my personal favorite for years.  But I think she's too conservative for this cycle.  Democrats want vengeance.

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14 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I hope she runs.  She's been my personal favorite for years.  But I think she's too conservative for this cycle.  Democrats want vengeance.

After the Trump shitshow maybe they will settle for honest and competent?

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I don't think we've seen the top contender on the Democratic side yet..... I think there's a lot of dipping toes in the water.

 

 I do think that someone will challenge Trump on the Republican side, if he's still there.

 

Thing is...... Ya gotta know who your opponent is. I think that a lot of Democrats don't think it's going to be Trump, so they need to keep their mouths shut, and their eyes, and ears open.

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38 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
53 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I hope she runs.  She's been my personal favorite for years.  But I think she's too conservative for this cycle.  Democrats want vengeance.

After the Trump shitshow maybe they will settle for honest and competent?

I've seen/heard more about how "Democrats want vengeance" being said by rightie news/talking heads than I have by actual Democrats. Count up the number of Democrats candidate this past fall who put impeaching President Trump on their campaign platform.... a few but but very far from all, I think around a quarter or less.

-DSK

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before all the talk about what democrats want, might be useful to look at the timing of the 2020 primarys. of note for handicappers - California's primary is now the first tuesday in March same as Texas. 

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13 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I hope you're right!
 

Agreed.   (Unless it’s so clear cut even the senate might consider the case) But if there is an impeachment does Pence have to recuse himself in the event of a tie, or does he promote himself?  

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The delusional leftie's fantasies would make a great comic book because it sure as fuck won't ever be in any history book.

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3 hours ago, Sean said:

Tulsi Gabbard said she was seriously considering running on Chris Mathews show tonight. On the upside, she's a hellofalot easier to look at than the current *resident.

That could be said to be damning with faint praise.

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9 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

I don't think we've seen the top contender on the Democratic side yet..... I think there's a lot of dipping toes in the water.

At about this point in the last cycle, the inevitability of JEB! was just assumed by all.

He had all the big money donors, best name recognition, and it was clearly his turn. A few questioned the remote possibilities that Rubio or Cruz could unseat him, but no one took it seriously.

Speaking of things that no one took seriously, I dismissed Trump's announcement of his candidacy as a publicity stunt and thought it a pretty ridiculous one. Clever me.

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14 hours ago, Ishmael said:

After the Trump shitshow maybe they will settle for honest and competent?

I'm in. Don't care about the letter. In fact, I'd rather a Republican so they can right their ship.

In the end, honest and competent is fine either way though.

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Many of you are ignoring just how fractured The Party of Women and Coastal Elites is, and within the Party the power of political correctness, the #metoo movement and the inability of the left on social media to forgive any slight or misstep. IMHO the nominee will have to be a woman.  The big question (again IMHO) will be whether the nominee is from the capitalist/corporatist wing or the ascendent socialist wing.

 

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15 hours ago, Not guilty said:

The delusional leftie's fantasies would make a great comic book because it sure as fuck won't ever be in any history book.

The story of Trump single term in office will make a great comic book. At least you will be able to read it then. 

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1 minute ago, LB 15 said:
16 hours ago, Not guilty said:

The delusional leftie's fantasies would make a great comic book because it sure as fuck won't ever be in any history book.

The story of Trump single term in office will make a great comic book. At least you will be able to read it then. 

I'll wait for the movie.

1db5ddf29f86426194737008845cc234

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12 minutes ago, J28 said:

Many of you are ignoring just how fractured The Party of Women and Coastal Elites is, and within the Party the power of political correctness, the #metoo movement and the inability of the left on social media to forgive any slight or misstep. IMHO the nominee will have to be a woman.  The big question (again IMHO) will be whether the nominee is from the capitalist/corporatist wing or the ascendent socialist wing.

 

It will be equally as interesting to see who wins the Rebulican nomination in 2020 from Trump. The big question is will they come from the Sky fairy worshipping wing or the who gives a fuck what he does as long as he wins wing? One thing is for certain. It won’t be a women. 

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2 hours ago, LB 15 said:

One thing is for certain. It won’t be a women. 

And thank goodness for that. We saw how hilldawg failed, luckily the right is smart enough to not follow that failed tactic. 

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33 minutes ago, Not guilty said:

And thank goodness for that. We saw how hilldawg failed, luckily the right is smart enough to not follow that failed tactic. 

Are you saying women can't run this joint?

Some of the smartest people I know are chicks. Merkel comes to mind. What about Temple or Jewel? Ever talk to them? They're powerhouses.

You are a fool if you discount these people.

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3 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

Are you saying women can't run this joint?

Some of the smartest people I know are chicks. Merkel comes to mind. What about Temple or Jewel? Ever talk to them? They're powerhouses.

You are a fool if you discount these people.

FIFY.   That Trump won by about 70,000 votes while losing the popular by 3 million seems to never register. 

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Work. Do the math.

 

Launch-Digital-Marketing-Adwords-Certifi

 

 

Oh, BTW - we're the 5th fastest growing company in IL. Yeah, women can't do it.

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2 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

FIFY.   That Trump won by about 70,000 votes while losing the popular by 3 million seems to never register. 

Thank You! so many times I have wanted to bring that up! 

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2 hours ago, Not guilty said:

And thank goodness for that. We saw how hilldawg failed, luckily the right is smart enough to not follow that failed tactic. 

Fuck I love this place.

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2 hours ago, d'ranger said:

FIFY.   That Trump won by about 70,000 votes while losing the popular by 3 million seems to never register. 

And the irony of your statement never registers with you.

YCMTSU!

 

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2 hours ago, austin1972 said:

Are you saying women can't run this joint?

Some of the smartest people I know are chicks. Merkel comes to mind. What about Temple or Jewel? Ever talk to them? They're powerhouses.

You are a fool if you discount these people.

He doesn't need anything specific like that.

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3 hours ago, J28 said:

And the irony of your statement never registers with you.

YCMTSU!

 

I bet you have one of those high pitched, girly voices in real life. 

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President Gabbard?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexislevinson/tulsi-gabbard-2020-president-democrat-primary

Tulsi Gabbard Is Moving Toward An Unconventional Presidential Campaign. Her Fans See “Bernie 2.0.”

The Hawaii Democrat, who has bucked her party in Congress, may make an announcement about her 2020 decision as soon as this week.

92A18CD6-0EDD-4198-BE8F-1914BC72999E.jpeg

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On 12/12/2018 at 11:08 AM, J28 said:

There have been significant additions and an update to the list of Democrat Presidential contenders that @Sean posted 3 weeks ago in this thread:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/205348-2020-democrat-presidential-field-is-already-winnowing-itself/&page=2

Additions/updates:

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Vox:  “It’s ridiculous that it’s unconstitutional for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to run for president”

https://www.vox.com/2018/12/12/18134945/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-president

Bobby O’Rourke (included in Sean’s list but now the #1 choice of progressives per move-on.org poll)

Dallas Observer:  “Beto O'Rourke's Presidential Campaign Is Going To Wear Us Out”

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/beto-orourke-presidential-update-11410687

Julian Castro

The Guardian:  “JulianCastro calls Latinos to action as he moves toward 2020 run”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/12/julian-castro-2020-presidential-run-latino-community

 

 

Is this a case of nerves? All citizens over the age of 35 are welcome to run for President. That we have something like 35 or so people out of 320,000,000 should not be a shock. Then again, when you consider what the Republicans have as alternates I would have something to cry over if I were you.

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23 minutes ago, Sean said:

President Gabbard?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexislevinson/tulsi-gabbard-2020-president-democrat-primary

Tulsi Gabbard Is Moving Toward An Unconventional Presidential Campaign. Her Fans See “Bernie 2.0.”

The Hawaii Democrat, who has bucked her party in Congress, may make an announcement about her 2020 decision as soon as this week.

92A18CD6-0EDD-4198-BE8F-1914BC72999E.jpeg

Gimme a hell yeah!

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33 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Gimme a hell yeah!

to be honest I am not a huge fan of picking a candidate with the nicest boobs. Look where this has gotten the republicans this time around??

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On 12/13/2018 at 12:07 PM, cmilliken said:

There was actually a very cool article I read about 10 years ago that basically looked at billionaires and calculated the point at which they made their money.  Most of them made their money in essentially a 10 year window and just inertia success (money begets money)  it after that.  They basically never had another great idea.  That's one reason they suggest never taking financial advice from a billionaire - they've already used up their great idea.

 

Not even just billionaires. You see it a lot in science, and other fields involving skilled endeavor. The perfect example is Isaac Newton, who after inventing calculus etc veered off into alchemy. After a year or two he realised he was off in the weeds, and bailed to run the public service.

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

President Gabbard?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexislevinson/tulsi-gabbard-2020-president-democrat-primary

Tulsi Gabbard Is Moving Toward An Unconventional Presidential Campaign. Her Fans See “Bernie 2.0.”

The Hawaii Democrat, who has bucked her party in Congress, may make an announcement about her 2020 decision as soon as this week.

92A18CD6-0EDD-4198-BE8F-1914BC72999E.jpeg

One thing for sure, tRump would never stop walking behind her during the debate.  

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21 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

to be honest I am not a huge fan of picking a candidate with the nicest boobs. Look where this has gotten the republicans this time around??

Let's face it. Tulsi's boobs may not be bigger than Trump's, but they look a hell of a lot better.

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7 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Let's face it. Tulsi's boobs may not be bigger than Trump's, but they look a hell of a lot better.

And she surfs 

4C6A3B11-2677-4CB2-B7B3-E4F3B11DB3D2.jpeg

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35 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

 The perfect example is Isaac Newton, who after inventing calculus.

Just out of curiosity - were mathematics like calculus and trigonometry invented or discovered?

Since they are the "language" of the universe I've always been inclined to think they were discovered.

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16 minutes ago, Sean said:

And she surfs 

4C6A3B11-2677-4CB2-B7B3-E4F3B11DB3D2.jpeg

What's her judgement like?

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On 12/13/2018 at 12:51 PM, Not guilty said:

And thank goodness for that. We saw how hilldawg failed, luckily the right is smart enough to not follow that failed tactic. 

What a douche-nugget. 

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11 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Just out of curiosity - were mathematics like calculus and trigonometry invented or discovered?

Since they are the "language" of the universe I've always been inclined to think they were discovered.

I'm in the "invented" camp but allegedly sober philosophers differ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics#Major_themes

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Personally, I think math has examples of both.  

I suspect things like counting, algebra, geometry, and even differentiation are discovered.  They inherently exist and there's only 'one way' that these disciplines can be executed.  Further more, no matter who follows the rules, they get the same outcome.

Whereas the concept of negative numbers and integration are more likely "invented".  These concepts don't inherently follow (in the case of negative numbers) or offer only unique solutions (in the case of integration).

 

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2 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

Personally, I think math has examples of both.  

I suspect things like counting, algebra, geometry, and even differentiation are discovered.  They inherently exist and there's only 'one way' that these disciplines can be executed.  Further more, no matter who follows the rules, they get the same outcome.

Whereas the concept of negative numbers and integration are more likely "invented".  These concepts don't inherently follow (in the case of negative numbers) or offer only unique solutions (in the case of integration).

fuck yeah. a libertarian who's just like the commies in "We", his world is blown because -1= e^pi*i

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16 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

fuck yeah. a libertarian who's just like the commies in "We", his world is blown because -1= e^pi*i

What a strange reply.  At some point, I might try and parse out what you mean - but probably not :).

The fact that imaginary numbers exist at all is because we chose to extend the number line beyond it's logical endpoint and encode additional information into our mathematical symbology.  Hence the 'invention' instead of 'discovery' distinction.  Humans (e.g., the Chinese from all appearances although it appears to be an emergent concept) invented a practice that doesn't necessarily follow from first principles.  If we were to discover intelligent aliens, it's not obvious at all that they would use imaginary numbers.  Euler's identity is an elegant summation that falls out of that initial assumption.

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

What's her judgement like?

She's the one that defends Assad and visited him, right?  

We don't need another president that coddles and excuses brutal tyrants. 

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12 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

What a strange reply.  At some point, I might try and parse out what you mean - but probably not :).

The fact that imaginary numbers exist at all is because we chose to extend the number line beyond it's logical endpoint and encode additional information into our mathematical symbology.  Hence the 'invention' instead of 'discovery' distinction.  Humans invented a concept that doesn't necessarily follow from first principles.  If we were to discover intelligent aliens, it's not obvious at all that they would use imaginary numbers.  Euler's identity is an elegant summation that falls out of that initial assumption.

You never read the novel We https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel) or wondered the reference to it in The Right Stuff? One of the protagonists problems is your post - dealing with the necessity of -1 and i and the conflict with those in a "logical" belief system that doesn't allow for them. If they are "illogical" how do you replace them? There are "first principle" deployments of complex numbers - refractive index is a notable one. You could, perhaps, replace complex numbers in this in a far more complicated schema. I tend towards discovered because there are behaviors consistent with the complex variables discovered recently, and well described, by mathematics that long predated them.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

What's her judgement like?

If she surfs, she has balance, and if she doesn't ditch on a reef, she has good judgement.

I don't see much reef rash on her, so......

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53 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

What a strange reply.  At some point, I might try and parse out what you mean - but probably not :).

The fact that imaginary numbers exist at all is because we chose to extend the number line beyond it's logical endpoint and encode additional information into our mathematical symbology.  Hence the 'invention' instead of 'discovery' distinction.  Humans (e.g., the Chinese from all appearances although it appears to be an emergent concept) invented a practice that doesn't necessarily follow from first principles.  If we were to discover intelligent aliens, it's not obvious at all that they would use imaginary numbers.  Euler's identity is an elegant summation that falls out of that initial assumption.

 

I would tend toward the 'invented' view.

Just because it works, doesn't mean it's the only possible way; nor does it mean that there might not be many (infinite) different systems of numbers/valuation just like there have been a huge number of languages.

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Clove Hitch said:

She's the one that defends Assad and visited him, right?  

We don't need another president that coddles and excuses brutal tyrants. 

TBH Assad is far from the worst party in that particular shitfight.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Just out of curiosity - were mathematics like calculus and trigonometry invented or discovered?

Since they are the "language" of the universe I've always been inclined to think they were discovered.

Relating to the particular example of calculus - there was another person (Dirac?) who codified the same concepts at around the same time. Both men used quite different notations to work with the concept.

So, I guess I would say integration and differentiation can be discovered in an existential sense, but a notation to describe them on paper must be invented.

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2 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

Relating to the particular example of calculus - there was another person (Dirac?) who codified the same concepts at around the same time. Both men used quite different notations to work with the concept.

So, I guess I would say integration and differentiation can be discovered in an existential sense, but a notation to describe them on paper must be invented.

Leibnitz. His notation is what we use today since Newton's was rather cumbersome

Paul Dirac was a subatomic physicist, worked with Bohr and Einstein. He also invented some fancy math but that stuff is too far over my head to try and say what it is much less explain it.

-DSK

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38 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

Then she gets my vote. 

You'd like her.  She is an apologist for brutal tyrants, just like you.

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16 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

You'd like her.  She is an apologist for brutal tyrants, just like you.

His subjects have spoken. They prefer their brutal tyrant to your terrorists.

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2 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

She's the one that defends Assad and visited him, right?  

We don't need another president that coddles and excuses brutal tyrants. 

Being an Iraq war vet, Gabbard has some experience in war fighting. She apparently doesn’t think regime change wars are a great idea.

Her views on the Syria issue -

 

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19 minutes ago, Sean said:

Being an Iraq war vet, Gabbard has some experience in war fighting. She apparently doesn’t think regime change wars are a great idea.

Her views on the Syria issue -

 

I've never advocated for any regime change.  But you don't see me defending Putin, Assad, and the little fat Kim guy.  She didn't have to visit Assad and let herself be used as a propaganda tool.   That shows an alarming level of ignorance. 

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50 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

She didn't have to visit Assad and let herself be used as a propaganda tool.   That shows an alarming level of ignorance. 

One of the few teeny tiny things I think Trump does right, is he isn't afraid to go and talk to people. There should be more of it. A lot more.

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53 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

I've never advocated for any regime change.  But you don't see me defending Putin, Assad, and the little fat Kim guy.  She didn't have to visit Assad and let herself be used as a propaganda tool.   That shows an alarming level of ignorance. 

Yeah, it does

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1 minute ago, Battlecheese said:

One of the few teeny tiny things I think Trump does right, is he isn't afraid to go and talk to people. There should be more of it. A lot more.

Why not?  It worked out great for Jane Fonda

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Just now, Clove Hitch said:

Why not?  It worked out great for Jane Fonda

And John Chau.

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1 hour ago, Sean said:

Being an Iraq war vet, Gabbard has some experience in war fighting. She apparently doesn’t think regime change wars are a great idea.

Geez, and it worked so well in Iraq.

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8 hours ago, Left Shift said:

One thing for sure, tRump would never stop walking behind her during the debate.  

And he would have a runny nose and sure he’d love to lock her up!:D

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6 hours ago, weightless said:

Here's a nice essay that name-checks some of the fancy thinking about that math thing:

 

That was a great series.

I was kinda bummed when they ended but the topic had run its course.

 

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15 hours ago, Left Shift said:

One thing for sure, tRump would never stop walking behind her during the debate.  

I don't think she'd stand for it. I was surprised that H did. Knocking him off that toadstool with a kick in the nuts could have changed everything.

On the chem attacks, is there anyone here that would put faking the attacks as beyond the U.S. to do?

Didn't think so.

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6 hours ago, cmilliken said:

That was a great series.

I was kinda bummed when they ended but the topic had run its course.

 

I was bummed, too. I was amazed that it lasted as long as it did. Honestly, how much demand is there for video overviews of ZF(C)?

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3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I don't think she'd stand for it. I was surprised that H did. Knocking him off that toadstool with a kick in the nuts could have changed everything.

On the chem attacks, is there anyone here that would put faking the attacks as beyond the U.S. to do?

Didn't think so.

I thought at the time that H was playing the long game of looking presidential and having tRump look like a lecherous jerk. 

Those were certainly the optics, but I forgot that there were so many voters who thought that pussy-grabbing and sexual harassment were just other games - like lawn darts - where nobody important could get hurt.

 

(I keep on reading the thread title as "New D-Rings being tossed in the hat" - like its some sort of cornhole game for riggers.)

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