Xlot

The AC On A Shoestring: Now Why Didn’t I Think Of That?

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Trying to make sense of the last minute flood of prospective, but manifestly marginal, challengers: why and why just now?

A possible explanation is that Defender and COR have become convinced that the number of serious teams is capped at the present foursome. Both, however, have a vested interest in adding several, ideally non-threatening teams: first priority, as noted here, to at least match the attendance in BDA and if possible to exceed it

A way to achieve this is by limiting a new teams’ budget exclusively to marginal costs: in practice, each “serious” team becomes a sort of Fairy Godmother to one “weakling” and passes on free of charge all design work related to boat 1 and the relevant hull mould. So, Malta would depend on LR/Persico and S&S on American Magic. ETNZ might tie up with a Chinese team,  and even Jim Ratcliffe might go with the Dutch since the obvious quid pro quo would  be that two-boat training would then be allowed, Def and COR having notoriously the only say on Prot changes

Too far-fetched?

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Maybe it is a good way to get good locations in the viewing area?

Wonder if they ever would do a salary cap like the US pro leagues.  Grinders were making more than brain surgeons last Cup cycles...but of course the grinders had more specialized and valued skills.

 

 

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Yeah mate for sure. Way too far fetched. You’re talking about a whole different ballgame. 

Also...

S&S are a two boat challenge, don’t underestimate them. 

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1 hour ago, Costro said:

S&S are a two boat challenge, don’t underestimate them. 

Hard not to,  with no naming sponsor - or any named sponsor, for that matter - and a design group of one ...

 

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

Hard not to,  with no naming sponsor - or any named sponsor, for that matter - and a design group of one ...

 

S&S got their design package from ETNZ.  JB Braun is the lead designer.  Funding is from several entities forming an old school syndicate.  It's almost as it you didn't read a damn thing that has been written today.

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12 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

  It's almost as it you didn't read a damn thing that has been written today.

It’s almost as if I couldn’t find my rose-tinted glasses today. But pray tell me: what has changed in hard, monetary terms - other than now having also  to pay theoretically the late fee - since talk started about the second US team months ago, and it was universally written off as not viable?

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Interesting point of view @Xlot.  I stick to my opinion that the defender wants and need as many teams as possible while the CoR wants to win.

My guess is that TNZ tries to accept as many teams, serious or not, without changing the protocol in order to avoid discussing with the CoR who wants to minimize the number, even if they represent a minor danger.

Despite that, GD will need to modify it for the last teams so negotiations must go on between them.

The result will depend on the one who has the bigger stick.

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28 minutes ago, Xlot said:

It’s almost as if I couldn’t find my rose-tinted glasses today. But pray tell me: what has changed in hard, monetary terms - other than now having also  to pay theoretically the late fee - since talk started about the second US team months ago, and it was universally written off as not viable?

Not certain they will have to pay the late fee.

We don't know when their challenge was actually submitted, only when it was all finalised.  It certainly sounds like they have already had access to the ETNZ design package for a while now which would indicate things were well in hand before the cut off.

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45 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

My guess is that TNZ tries to accept as many teams, serious or not, without changing the protocol in order to avoid discussing with the CoR who wants to minimize the number, even if they represent a minor danger.

This would be true of any defender who wants as big an event as possible right? It just sounds like the logical outcome...

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3 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

This would be true of any defender who wants as big an event as possible right? It just sounds like the logical outcome...

Correct, the defender has to please the city, the government, they need a successful event to secure future fundings and please financial backers, as most defenders.

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I think you're over thinking it. According to the protocol, any challenge that meets the requirements must be accepted so ETNZ don't get to pick and choose, though they offer inducements to get teams to enter (such as help with a design package, periodic payment of entry fees vs one off, etc.).

A last minute conditional challenge is a way to extend the date that money has to be paid. By having conditions and delaying acceptance until 21 December, they give themselves the maximum time before the final payment deadline of 31 December (allowing for 10 days after acceptance before any payments are due).

 

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8 hours ago, Xlot said:

what has changed in hard, monetary terms - other than now having also  to pay theoretically the late fee - since talk started about the second US team months ago

I wrote this before but Ineos and AM training boats have added a lot of value into the next cup and that doesn't have to be underestimated. A lot doubted about the concept when released, now it is turning to enthusiastic interest. Add some time to use the argument from the first sail of the boat until you convince some sponsors and the deadline for late entry is there...

Still I don't see your idea as so far fetched, we are speaking about AC after all. Not sure those connections are established yet though.

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15 hours ago, Xlot said:

It’s almost as if I couldn’t find my rose-tinted glasses today. But pray tell me: what has changed in hard, monetary terms - other than now having also  to pay theoretically the late fee - since talk started about the second US team months ago, and it was universally written off as not viable?

Well, they obviously have enough money to build a boat and enter the race.  And who wrote them off?  

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Well, they obviously have enough money to build a boat and enter the race.  And who wrote them off?  

If you read back a few months you'll find that many who were so keen to blindly bag ETNZ at any opportunity, that they asserted there would be only 3 challengers, and even if more did arrive they be laughably late losers that essentially wouldn't count.

Now that it turns out these later challengers include the likes of S&S all of a sudden those criticisms have evaporated.

@Xlot is right, what has changed? Other than the shifting opinions of hypocrites?

FWIW I actually believe S&S make a strong Challenger, and they are great example of what I've been suggesting all along - being a "late" challenger can actually be a deliberate and advantageous strategy.

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Well, they obviously have enough money to build a boat and enter the race.  And who wrote them off?  

The same people who a few months back were gleefully screaming failure when there was only 3 challengers, and now say "They're just there to make up the numbers" and "we only want serious challengers" and which are the same people who call Dalton a hypocrite (ironically) because he complained about costs being so high in 2013 even though he was absolutely right.

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10 hours ago, rh2600 said:

If you read back a few months you'll find that many who were so keen to blindly bag ETNZ at any opportunity, that they asserted there would be only 3 challengers, and even if more did arrive they be laughably late losers that essentially wouldn't count.

Now that it turns out these later challengers include the likes of S&S all of a sudden those criticisms have evaporated.

@Xlot is right, what has changed? Other than the shifting opinions of hypocrites?

FWIW I actually believe S&S make a strong Challenger, and they are great example of what I've been suggesting all along - being a "late" challenger can actually be a deliberate and advantageous strategy.

Don't go twisting it into what it wasn't.  I was ridiculed and mocked when I started the second US team thread.  Many of us never criticized NZ for not having enough teams, don't go building up your defense based upon a few responses.  Same goes for mfluder....

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15 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

Well, they obviously have enough money to build a boat and enter the race.  And who wrote them off?  

It seemed like following the SailGP announcement, most on SAAC  believed this team wasn't moving forward. I can't say I ever saw the connection.

Am I missing something or is the source of $&$ for S&S still a bit of a mystery? Do they in fact "obviously have enough money to build a boat"?

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2 hours ago, Herfy said:

Don't go twisting it into what it wasn't.  I was ridiculed and mocked when I started the second US team thread.  Many of us never criticized NZ for not having enough teams, don't go building up your defense based upon a few responses.  Same goes for mfluder....

So my comment doesn't apply to you then? Cool :-)

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Do they in fact "obviously have enough money to build a boat"?

“Our funding to this point has come from a number of founding patrons from coast-to-coast who are passionate about our message and I think that’s indicative of our inclusive aim,” said Shaffer.

The above is from their web page. No sign of any sponsors logos on their page - yet. The "founding patrons" have either come up with cash or guaranteed a line of credit to pay their entry fees, and get the build started on their boat. The design package purchased from ETNZ is quite possibly funded via installments? Funding could be the reason this team was so late to announce their participation, despite saying they've been "doing it" for a while. All just speculation on my part, but you'd think they'd have to secure some major sponsors to see this challenge go forward. The copy on their web page reads a lot like a pitch, laying out their ethos and credentials - all perfectly reasonable in the game that is an AC challenge.

Stars and Stripes

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10 hours ago, dogwatch said:

It seemed like following the SailGP announcement, most on SAAC  believed this team wasn't moving forward. I can't say I ever saw the connection.

Am I missing something or is the source of $&$ for S&S still a bit of a mystery? Do they in fact "obviously have enough money to build a boat"?

If the boat is being built, I doubt it's being done out of good will.  Or maybe it is, and it's an "in kind" donation from somebody.  

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13 hours ago, Herfy said:

Don't go twisting it into what it wasn't.  I was ridiculed and mocked when I started the second US team thread.  Many of us never criticized NZ for not having enough teams, don't go building up your defense based upon a few responses.  Same goes for mfluder....

Haha sure ya didn't. Just like no one said ETNZ was behind in Bermuda, no one said ETNZ staying in Auckland would hurt their campaign, no one said ETNZ didn't stand a chance against the Bermuda teams, no one said AC36 would only have 3 teams, no one said AC36 would be a huge failure due to the fact they only had 3 teams... oh what a difference a few months makes.

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10 hours ago, mfluder said:

Haha sure ya didn't. Just like no one said ETNZ was behind in Bermuda, no one said ETNZ staying in Auckland would hurt their campaign, no one said ETNZ didn't stand a chance against the Bermuda teams, no one said AC36 would only have 3 teams, no one said AC36 would be a huge failure due to the fact they only had 3 teams... oh what a difference a few months makes.

The only criticism that I have ever laid out is to hyper sensitive, inflated ego posters like yourself.  You paint a very broad brush on thinks you nothing about.  I was in Bermuda during the Challenger Finals and was cheering on NZ.  Of course I was hoping for Oracle to win the cup.   Oh, I was also critical of the design concept, still have my doubts and it does look like a basilisk lizard.

Some day you will grow out of your victim mentality, here is a link to help:

https://www.wikihow.com/Spot-Signs-of-Victim-Mentality

 

 

Now, can we get back to the topic....

I highly suspect that everyone who has put up the entrance fees and has begun building a boat will be a serious challenger, at least in their own mind.  Stars and Stripes should not be discounted, I think they will be very competitive.

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12 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

If the boat is being built, I doubt it's being done out of good will.   

Is it being built?

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5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Is it being built?

Little reason to doubt that construction is under way.  The syndicate made that explicit claim in the media release confirming their challenge and its acceptance.  With the massive task ahead of building a following and attracting funding  it would be a killer to lie about that.

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Every interview that I read says the S&S AC75 is under construction in Holland Michigan.  More info is in the other thread.

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21 hours ago, Herfy said:

Every interview that I read says the S&S AC75 is under construction in Holland Michigan.  More info is in the other thread.

There's another thread?  Wouldn't it be much better if there was just one?

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Well, what do you know: read post #96 in the “5th challenger” thread, it would seem that both the AM and S&S boats are being built ... in the same state of Michigan ...

 

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Wow share and all work for the return of the cup!!

Look like a very good competitive cup cycle

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5 hours ago, Xlot said:

Well, what do you know: read post #96 in the “5th challenger” thread, it would seem that both the AM and S&S boats are being built ... in the same state of Michigan ...

 

All I read was some vague and peripheral Seahorse speculation about Doug DeVos future in the America's Cup.   Nothing about "both the AM and S&S boats are being built ... in the same state of Michigan ..."

Correct me please if I'm wrong.

AM built its test boat in Bristol, RI and as best I know intends to build it's Cup boats there.  Far more ingrained experience and infrastructure than Michigan. Hey, stretching back to the Herreshoff era Bristol has been the epicentre of Cup boat building.

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I agree much more with your simultaneous post in the “5th challenger thread”:

“Everything here suggests that the DeVos family, most likely in large part Doug DeVos, has a foot in both American Camps - one way or another.

Yes, McInnes has a long impressive record in small boat and big boat competition and especially in the DeVos stable. The question to ask is how he vaulted from long-time, core Windquest crew and support guy to CEO of a very well capitalised composites shop with all the latest and expensive tools?  And coincidentally in Doug DeVos' backyard. Clearly by dint of hard work and advanced study.  But someone had to bankroll him.”

Now, it would make no sense, even for a billionaire, to set up a state of the art shop and then not move all available business to it - I mean not even Ellison would do that

All the more so since S&S alone is certainly not an ideal client, flush with cash

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And now the Dutch ... It’s either RobG’s #11 post (Defender having to accept formally complying challenges ... until payments come due) or my OP has some merit. So far, none of the last minute entries has got a penny to their names

In fact, this would mirror today’s two-tier F1, where three teams monopolize podiums and the others are technically dependent/informally associated (supply of engines and other components, design info even if theoretically forbidden) and vie for the crumbs

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 12:50 AM, Xlot said:

I agree much more with your simultaneous post in the “5th challenger thread”:

“Everything here suggests that the DeVos family, most likely in large part Doug DeVos, has a foot in both American Camps - one way or another.

Yes, McInnes has a long impressive record in small boat and big boat competition and especially in the DeVos stable. The question to ask is how he vaulted from long-time, core Windquest crew and support guy to CEO of a very well capitalised composites shop with all the latest and expensive tools?  And coincidentally in Doug DeVos' backyard. Clearly by dint of hard work and advanced study.  But someone had to bankroll him.”

Now, it would make no sense, even for a billionaire, to set up a state of the art shop and then not move all available business to it - I mean not even Ellison would do that

All the more so since S&S alone is certainly not an ideal client, flush with cash

Yeahhh! .......  I think it's a more complex story than that.  For sure it signals that Doug DeVos is in the Cup game for the long haul. Everyone in the family sails but he is the standout in his generation.  Is only 54,  President of Amway, majority owner of Quantum Sails, campaigns the Quantum Racing Team in the Med and has won the 52 series over multiple years with Terry Hutchinson as his skipper. 

Doug is playing the long game, I'd say.  Seems probable that looking to the future he staked McInnes in his new composites shop but not with a specific eye to this Cup cycle. This time he's focussing on the NYYC challenge with Hap Fauth and again with Terry who skippers boats for both Bs. 

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If one of the new teams does make it to NZL, can it work to improve another team after being eliminated from the competition, much as SoftBank did in the last competition with Oracle?  In the SoftBank case, it was a clever way for Oracle to get insight and develop from the challenger series.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

If one of the new teams does make it to NZL, can it work to improve another team after being eliminated from the competition, much as SoftBank did in the last competition with Oracle?  In the SoftBank case, it was a clever way for Oracle to get insight and develop from the challenger series.

 

 

It helps when members of the "other team" are already on your pay roll.

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